Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

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momeenbhai
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2371

Unread post by momeenbhai » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:46 am

why all questions only from claimant?

when will muffu appear?



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#2372

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:51 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:46 am
why all questions only from claimant?

when will muffu appear?
You assume Muffu has the B@11$ to appear. If he had any courage/knowledge he would have accepted the twice issued challenge by haq na duat to public debate!



momeenbhai
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

#2373

Unread post by momeenbhai » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:49 am

court calls every one. balls or no balls.

amazed why he is not been called yet.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#2374

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:24 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:49 am
court calls every one. balls or no balls.

amazed why he is not been called yet.
It’s a civil law-suit. He cannot be forced (subpoenaed) to testify. He actually does need said balls in order to appear in court. So unless he grows a pair, he ain’t coming. He may designate someone. Having said that, it would be a lot of fun to see him in court. His keen intellect would really shine through!! :lol: Also, his “truthfulness” would mesmerize!! :lol: :lol:



momeenbhai
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

#2375

Unread post by momeenbhai » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:55 am

so hows the josh? high or low?



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#2376

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:01 pm

Starting March 11th is the testimony of the Professor of Ismailli history. I would be curious to hear what the arguments in court are. I hope that the newspapers summarize them. It would also be good if they are posted here too, for those who are interested.



juzer esmail
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

#2377

Unread post by juzer esmail » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:12 am

Who's the professor?



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#2378

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:55 pm

juzer esmail wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:12 am
Who's the professor?
Legal Update January 2019
[From FD website]

The cross-examination of Syedna Fakhruddin concluded on 29th January 2019, after hearings on 27 days at the Hon’ble Bombay High Court. Over 2,000 questions in aggregate were asked. The next witness, Prof Wilferd Madelung, from the University of Oxford, and an expert on the history of Islam will be cross examined from 11th March 2019.




Qadir
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

#2380

Unread post by Qadir » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 am

TF's side witness, right? A claimant for dai and can't prove him being one with all the texts from dawat and wants to call a professor. I am not opposed to it but it would be great to see TF proven wrong by this professor. I read some of his papers and the professor is quite impartial to different schools of thought of islam, at least in his paper. Don't know what he is gonna say in court under oath. How funny it would be if he says something in favor of TF and the lawyers find him contradicting his own papers?

I believe that SMS will visit the court if he needs to. The judge can ask him to appear but can't force him. STS went to fight for dawat and his equally fearless successor will too if the need arises.



Qadir
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

#2381

Unread post by Qadir » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 am

Whoever wins its hardly gonna change the fact that SMS is the true dai and his people will never leave his side.



SBM
Posts: 6197
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#2382

Unread post by SBM » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:12 pm

Qadir wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 am
Whoever wins its hardly gonna change the fact that SMS is the true dai and his people will never leave his side.
So you already decided---A true sign of Blind Abde



Qadir
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

#2383

Unread post by Qadir » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:14 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, many progressives believe that Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin was not a rightfully selected dai, right?

Now when the judge overseeing the Chandabhoy Galla Case, upheld the right of Syedna Taher Saifuddin as the rightful Dai al Mutlaq, and hence legally accepting Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin as rightful Successor to Syedna Mohammed Badruddin, why didn't you accept the verdict.

Now I don't exactly know the beliefs of progressive and maybe the above statements might not be true for them, but I am confident that Syedna Aaliqadr is the rightful successor to Syedna Burhanuddin not because a judge thought it was correct but because my soul thought it was correct. Our beliefs are what makes us who we are, what are we if our beliefs can be changed so easily. I wouldn't place my bets that if SMS finally wins the case, TF's followers will leave his side. Nor would I assume that when Imam-uz-Zaman does zuhur progressives will accept him because the dai said he his Imam uz Zaman and not the court.

It is literally pointless to wait for the verdict if you consider spirituality to be in question. The question is about billions of dollars worth of properties and waqf spaces. Also, I wouldn't think that TF would get right to masjids inaugurated by SMS due to waqf board rules. Once again, I will stand by SMS just like lakhs of other mumineen not just because he won the case or not but because we believe he is our dai.



zinger
Posts: 1884
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#2384

Unread post by zinger » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:12 am

Qadir wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:14 pm
Correct me if I am wrong, many progressives believe that Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin was not a rightfully selected dai, right?

Now when the judge overseeing the Chandabhoy Galla Case, upheld the right of Syedna Taher Saifuddin as the rightful Dai al Mutlaq, and hence legally accepting Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin as rightful Successor to Syedna Mohammed Badruddin, why didn't you accept the verdict.

Now I don't exactly know the beliefs of progressive and maybe the above statements might not be true for them, but I am confident that Syedna Aaliqadr is the rightful successor to Syedna Burhanuddin not because a judge thought it was correct but because my soul thought it was correct. Our beliefs are what makes us who we are, what are we if our beliefs can be changed so easily. I wouldn't place my bets that if SMS finally wins the case, TF's followers will leave his side. Nor would I assume that when Imam-uz-Zaman does zuhur progressives will accept him because the dai said he his Imam uz Zaman and not the court.

It is literally pointless to wait for the verdict if you consider spirituality to be in question. The question is about billions of dollars worth of properties and waqf spaces. Also, I wouldn't think that TF would get right to masjids inaugurated by SMS due to waqf board rules. Once again, I will stand by SMS just like lakhs of other mumineen not just because he won the case or not but because we believe he is our dai.
From what you have written, it is evident that you are speaking from your heart and not grand-standing.
While i cannot speak for the others, i for one certainly respect that. i was once just as confident about Mufaddal Maula being the Dai, as much as you are, but i guess the truth dawned on me finally.

What i appreciated about your post was not just the honesty-from-the-heart but that you did not resort to name calling and mocking and abusing, something which is so rare on this site these days



Biradar
Posts: 854
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#2385

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:47 pm

zinger wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:12 am
... i was once just as confident about Mufaddal Maula being the Dai, as much as you are, but i guess the truth dawned on me finally.
Can you enlighten us what what was the "truth" in your statement "the truth dawned on me finally"? What made this "truth" dawn on you?

Also, in general, I agree with Qadir. This case is not really about determining who is the da'i. People have picked sides and nothing will change at this point. A judge can't determine matters of personal faith. In fact, the judge will essentially ask the two sides to share various properties and resources, but will not make a definitive statement on who the da'i is. He can't as he has no authority to do so.



zinger
Posts: 1884
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#2386

Unread post by zinger » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:57 am

Biradar wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:47 pm
zinger wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:12 am
... i was once just as confident about Mufaddal Maula being the Dai, as much as you are, but i guess the truth dawned on me finally.
Can you enlighten us what what was the "truth" in your statement "the truth dawned on me finally"? What made this "truth" dawn on you?

Also, in general, I agree with Qadir. This case is not really about determining who is the da'i. People have picked sides and nothing will change at this point. A judge can't determine matters of personal faith. In fact, the judge will essentially ask the two sides to share various properties and resources, but will not make a definitive statement on who the da'i is. He can't as he has no authority to do so.
The truth that perhaps Muffadal Maula, even though he may have been "chosen" as the Dai, is perhaps:
1. Either not good enough at it, or
2. Perhaps not the legitimate Dai at all



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#2387

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:05 am

Biradar wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:47 pm
In fact, the judge will essentially ask the two sides to share various properties and resources, but will not make a definitive statement on who the da'i is. He can't as he has no authority to do so.
The judge is indeed not going to pick the dai - you are right, he has no authority. He is going to rule, based on evidence presented, whom Burhanuddin Moula picked as Dai.



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#2388

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:48 am

Appreciate the civil nature of the discussions here. Hope that it continues.

At its best, I believe that the judge will decide who in the opinion of the court is the correct dai, and hence who should be the administrator (in effect, controlling ?) of Dawat-e-hadiyah (all the bohra properties).

As far as what are an individual's belief and in the matter of his/her faith, that is for that individual to follow - the constitution guarantees it and the court is not going to say anything about an individual's faith. That is my thinking.

However, I believe the court case is important for at least 2 reason, probably more:
  • There may be proofs presented which FD is restricted from being shared with the public as the case is on-going. I would hope that they can be shared afterwards. That can help the general public decide one way or the other.
    * A relatively neutral party's opinion (the Indian courts) may count for something for some people who are open to listening to it and on the fence.



kseeker
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

#2389

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm

zinger wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:12 am
Qadir wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:14 pm
Correct me if I am wrong, many progressives believe that Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin was not a rightfully selected dai, right?

Now when the judge overseeing the Chandabhoy Galla Case, upheld the right of Syedna Taher Saifuddin as the rightful Dai al Mutlaq, and hence legally accepting Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin as rightful Successor to Syedna Mohammed Badruddin, why didn't you accept the verdict.

Now I don't exactly know the beliefs of progressive and maybe the above statements might not be true for them, but I am confident that Syedna Aaliqadr is the rightful successor to Syedna Burhanuddin not because a judge thought it was correct but because my soul thought it was correct. Our beliefs are what makes us who we are, what are we if our beliefs can be changed so easily. I wouldn't place my bets that if SMS finally wins the case, TF's followers will leave his side. Nor would I assume that when Imam-uz-Zaman does zuhur progressives will accept him because the dai said he his Imam uz Zaman and not the court.

It is literally pointless to wait for the verdict if you consider spirituality to be in question. The question is about billions of dollars worth of properties and waqf spaces. Also, I wouldn't think that TF would get right to masjids inaugurated by SMS due to waqf board rules. Once again, I will stand by SMS just like lakhs of other mumineen not just because he won the case or not but because we believe he is our dai.
From what you have written, it is evident that you are speaking from your heart and not grand-standing.
While i cannot speak for the others, i for one certainly respect that. i was once just as confident about Mufaddal Maula being the Dai, as much as you are, but i guess the truth dawned on me finally.

What i appreciated about your post was not just the honesty-from-the-heart but that you did not resort to name calling and mocking and abusing, something which is so rare on this site these days
I believe there will be a change in the followers dynamics if the ruling goes in TF's favour. Dawoodi bohras are not just a sect of islam but a full fledged socialist organization. Without 90% of the halls, jamaats and other structures, controlling the mass will not be easy. I understand that the judgement will only be applicable in India and to gain control over the rest of the world's structures, he will have to fight cases in all of them but if his support in India grows, that feeling will surely trickle to bohras in other countries.. As far as Waqf board rules go, hardly any significant landmarks have been made waqf by MS

Qadir - Your statements are based on the thought that every follower of MS is a loyal one who will follow him no matter where but the truth is the majority of our community did not even know his name until he was selected to be the mansoos... the population has been brainwashed ever since with stories of his great contributions to the jamea studies and Hakimi masjid in Misr.. did you ever hear about those before he became the mansoos? I have been to Misr twice before he became mansoos and stayed in the DB facilities, on both occasions we were given history lessons but never was MS mentioned... anyways, my point is that if people can be brainwashed once, they can be brainwashed again.... Moreover, there are many people who are not die-hard followers and just going with the flow, if the case goes against MS, they will get a bit more courage and freedom to explore the TF arena...most of our brethren put up with the kothar crap because sadly, we are more worried about how and where we are going to be buried when we die than what deeds we do while we are alive. If TF gets majority of those spots, the masjids, he will surely get a larger following...

What I fear in this whole ordeal is that if TF wins and uprisings start, people might start to mistake the greed of men for defects in our sect. The very reason why Ali (AS) did not fight for his right - to protect the ummah and not let people think all the preaching was just a new way to control the masses.

Your first two points.

1. Like you said yourself, a judge or a case cannot decide who the Dai is.. just like you would not leave MS if he lost the case, progressives won't believe STS was rightful just because he won a case :)
2. You question if the progressives will accept the Imaam when he does zuhoor, my question is will the MS followers accept the Imaam when he does Zuhoor?..because just like you assume progressives would not accept an Imam pointed out by the current DB clergy, the progressives assume you would not accept an Imam unless validated by the DB clergy....

I have heard that the plans to position Jaafar Us Saadiq BS as the hidden Imaam have ramped up in speed.. a lot of the very close and very influential bohras have now gained 'Maarifat' of his 'exalted' position.



zinger
Posts: 1884
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#2390

Unread post by zinger » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:24 am

kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
I believe there will be a change in the followers dynamics if the ruling goes in TF's favour. Dawoodi bohras are not just a sect of islam but a full fledged socialist organization. Without 90% of the halls, jamaats and other structures, controlling the mass will not be easy. I understand that the judgement will only be applicable in India and to gain control over the rest of the world's structures, he will have to fight cases in all of them but if his support in India grows, that feeling will surely trickle to bohras in other countries.. As far as Waqf board rules go, hardly any significant landmarks have been made waqf by MS
I think i will tend to agree with Qadir on this one. It seems very unlikely, that whatever the outcome of the case will be, majority will change side. yes, a few definitely might, but i think most will prefer to stay put where they are. the reason could either be brainwashing, or it could be that they genuinely believe that Burhanuddin Maula has done nass on him
kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
Qadir - Your statements are based on the thought that every follower of MS is a loyal one who will follow him no matter where but the truth is the majority of our community did not even know his name until he was selected to be the mansoos... the population has been brainwashed ever since with stories of his great contributions to the jamea studies and Hakimi masjid in Misr.. did you ever hear about those before he became the mansoos? I have been to Misr twice before he became mansoos and stayed in the DB facilities, on both occasions we were given history lessons but never was MS mentioned... anyways, my point is that if people can be brainwashed once, they can be brainwashed again....
You must be right on the points above but my question to you is brainwashed again by whom? By Mufaddal Maula and his camp into making masses believe that the court case is all wrong or by Fakhruddin Maula and his camp that he has been victorious and is the righteous Dai?

kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
Moreover, there are many people who are not die-hard followers and just going with the flow, if the case goes against MS, they will get a bit more courage and freedom to explore the TF arena...most of our brethren put up with the kothar crap because sadly, we are more worried about how and where we are going to be buried when we die than what deeds we do while we are alive. If TF gets majority of those spots, the masjids, he will surely get a larger following...
Again, i will probably tend to disagree. While the kothar is definitely a nuisance, it is seen as a minor nuisance by most people, as long as they are in the daaman of Mufaddal Maula. most people in my jamat are of that opinion, that kothar ka kaam hain lootna, but Mufaddal Maula is there, he will give back much more to us and he is giving much more to us, by allowing us to be with him

kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
1. Like you said yourself, a judge or a case cannot decide who the Dai is.. just like you would not leave MS if he lost the case, progressives won't believe STS was rightful just because he won a case :)

I dont think that that is the official stand of reformists. I would suggest that you couch it as a personal opinion
kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
2. You question if the progressives will accept the Imaam when he does zuhoor, my question is will the MS followers accept the Imaam when he does Zuhoor?..because just like you assume progressives would not accept an Imam pointed out by the current DB clergy, the progressives assume you would not accept an Imam unless validated by the DB clergy....
Ofcourse, this goes without saying. even if the true Imam came and stood in front of the Bohra crowd today, i personally feel most people would be sceptical, unless authenticated by Muffadal Maula.
kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
I have heard that the plans to position Jaafar Us Saadiq BS as the hidden Imaam have ramped up in speed.. a lot of the very close and very influential bohras have now gained 'Maarifat' of his 'exalted' position.

:shock: :shock: :shock:



kseeker
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

#2391

Unread post by kseeker » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:52 pm

zinger wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:24 am
kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
I believe there will be a change in the followers dynamics if the ruling goes in TF's favour. Dawoodi bohras are not just a sect of islam but a full fledged socialist organization. Without 90% of the halls, jamaats and other structures, controlling the mass will not be easy. I understand that the judgement will only be applicable in India and to gain control over the rest of the world's structures, he will have to fight cases in all of them but if his support in India grows, that feeling will surely trickle to bohras in other countries.. As far as Waqf board rules go, hardly any significant landmarks have been made waqf by MS
I think i will tend to agree with Qadir on this one. It seems very unlikely, that whatever the outcome of the case will be, majority will change side. yes, a few definitely might, but i think most will prefer to stay put where they are. the reason could either be brainwashing, or it could be that they genuinely believe that Burhanuddin Maula has done nass on him
kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
Qadir - Your statements are based on the thought that every follower of MS is a loyal one who will follow him no matter where but the truth is the majority of our community did not even know his name until he was selected to be the mansoos... the population has been brainwashed ever since with stories of his great contributions to the jamea studies and Hakimi masjid in Misr.. did you ever hear about those before he became the mansoos? I have been to Misr twice before he became mansoos and stayed in the DB facilities, on both occasions we were given history lessons but never was MS mentioned... anyways, my point is that if people can be brainwashed once, they can be brainwashed again....
You must be right on the points above but my question to you is brainwashed again by whom? By Mufaddal Maula and his camp into making masses believe that the court case is all wrong or by Fakhruddin Maula and his camp that he has been victorious and is the righteous Dai?

kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
Moreover, there are many people who are not die-hard followers and just going with the flow, if the case goes against MS, they will get a bit more courage and freedom to explore the TF arena...most of our brethren put up with the kothar crap because sadly, we are more worried about how and where we are going to be buried when we die than what deeds we do while we are alive. If TF gets majority of those spots, the masjids, he will surely get a larger following...
Again, i will probably tend to disagree. While the kothar is definitely a nuisance, it is seen as a minor nuisance by most people, as long as they are in the daaman of Mufaddal Maula. most people in my jamat are of that opinion, that kothar ka kaam hain lootna, but Mufaddal Maula is there, he will give back much more to us and he is giving much more to us, by allowing us to be with him

kseeker wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:07 pm
1. Like you said yourself, a judge or a case cannot decide who the Dai is.. just like you would not leave MS if he lost the case, progressives won't believe STS was rightful just because he won a case :)

I dont think that that is the official stand of reformists. I would suggest that you couch it as a personal opinion


Ofcourse, this goes without saying. even if the true Imam came and stood in front of the Bohra crowd today, i personally feel most people would be sceptical, unless authenticated by Muffadal Maula.




:shock: :shock: :shock:
1. they genuinely 'believe' he is the rightful leader even though there is no proof of nass - the only way for any sane person to get there is brainwashing.
2. brainwashed by the kothar to believe that MS is the rightful Dai.
3. "most people in my jamat are of that opinion, that kothar ka kaam hain lootna, but Mufaddal Maula is there, he will give back much more to us and he is giving much more to us, by allowing us to be with him"

That because most people in the jamaats don't know that it was MS who was the ringleader of all the kothar extortions back in the day. any one who would go to pay wajebaat to MB would first have to go through MS and he would double or triple the number without any thought or justification.

4. A reformist is a person who holds thoughts different from the ones of the clergy. there are different scales at which a person demands reform.. so there is no set reformist view.. however, a reformist does not base a view on what the court dictates.. he/she goes to the court to stop something they believe needs to be stopped.. and not for the court to help them make their opinion.. so my point stands, a reformist does not care what a court says.