Is reform truly possible? Part II

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Is reform truly possible? Part II

#1

Unread post by kansas » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:24 pm

Six months ago, I wrote a post on this forum entitled "Is reform truly possible?"

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9212

In my opinion, this question remains by far the singular most important issue facing Dawoodi Bohras today.

The first question all Bohras must ask themselves is whether they believe the past several Syednas have been righteous, humble, and God-fearing individuals who have been ideal stewards of the community. If a Bohra truly believes the answer to be yes, then I guess he should serve his Syedna without reservation.

As for those of us who find the conduct of the past Syednas to be blameworthy and un-Islamic, it would behoove us to follow out the consequences of our belief to their logical conclusions.

Over the past six months, I have read hundreds of posts on this forum detailing the corruption of the Bohra priesthood. I particularly enjoy the posts of a certain Ghulam Muhammed, who sheds light on all sorts of sordid behavior arising from the very top of the Bohra hierarchy. The tales of corruption, fraud, violence, adultery, and even murder by members of the Syedna's family or even the Syedna himself are all quite fascinating.

But I do find myself wondering what purpose these thousands upon thousands of posts ultimately serve. Basically, they all boil down to saying "The Bohra priesthood is corrupt", which is kind of like saying "The sky is blue". Anyone who has a functioning set of eyes knows already knows the sky is blue. And people who are blind will never understand what the sky looks like, no matter how many times you tell them.

Perhaps the point of endlessly exposing their crimes is to accentuate the need for "reform". But for me these posts have the opposite effect. Reading about 100 years of the most brazen forms of corruption just strengthens my conviction that the Bohra priesthood is irredeemable.

Can anyone truly envision a future when the Bohra priesthood accepts the error of their ways and becomes a humble, transparent, faithful servant of the community? The very idea is so ridiculous just thinking about it almost makes me laugh out loud.

But leaving aside the corruption of the priesthood, there is an even more fundamental problem facing the Dawoodi Bohras today. Corrupt rulers are nothing new in Islamic history, they have been the norm throughout. However, Shiism promises Muslims a remedy to this sad state of affairs in the form of divinely appointed infallible Imams who guarantee the faithful will always have a righteous leader. As for the Ithna Asharis, they believe their Imam has gone into occultation and so they wait for his return.

Ismailis, on the other hand, continue to believe they are led by divinely inspired leaders. The Aga Khanis have their Aga Khan, who they claim is the 49th Imam. Dawoodi Bohras believe their 21st Imam went into occultation, and from then on a member of his direct descendants continues to lead the Dawoodi Bohras from behind the scenes by inspiring his Dai Mutlaq, who also has claimed infallibility for at least the past 100 years.

The prior point is exceedingly important and is worthy of repeating. Shiism in general, and Ismailism in particular, promises and guarantees righteous leadership through the office of the infallible Imam. Dawoodi Bohras would do well to carefully ponder this point. How can a Bohra who believes the past few Syednas were corrupt reconcile this belief with the belief than an infallible hidden Imam is guiding the Syedna? The answer, which should be obvious, is that it is impossible.

The presence of a corrupt Syedna does not indicate that Dawoodi Bohrism is in need of "reform". It proves that Dawoodi Bohrism is a fraud, a 100% falsehood. Even if the first 50 Imams/Dais were perfect, followed by a corrupt 51st Dai, followed by 1000 righteous Dais after him, Dawoodi Bohrism would still be proved false. Even one corrupt Dai belies the very essence of the faith, its central claim for existence, its raison d'etre.

Dawoodi Bohrism can be accepted or it can be rejected. There is no logical third option. Even if reformists were successful in implementing every single reform they desire, that would not change the inherently corrupt nature of the 51st and 52nd dais in the least, and that in itself shows there was no hidden Imam continually guiding the Syedna, and that the whole central claim of the sect is a giant lie. Assuming that things could go back to the way they were would be akin to trying to do CPR on a dead person and then pretending they are still alive.

I have spent a lot of time wondering why reformists are unable to grasp the obvious. I have read the mission statement on this website dozens of times, it never ceases to amaze me. That so many logical inconsistencies and contradictions can be packed in a few short paragraphs (not to mention 50 spelling errors) is astounding.

We are Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi Dawoodi Bohras, a sect of Shia Islam. We accept the succession of Imams up to Imam Tayyeb and his progeny, and the line of Tayyebi Dais starting from Syedna Zoeb bin Moosa to the current Dai, Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.

Let's start with this first paragraph. As everyone knows, Mohammed Burhanuddin has been dead for almost a year now! Occasionally some faithful Dawoodi Bohra comes on the forum and mockingly asks the website to update this paragraph and unequivocally state who the reformists take as their Syedna, at which point that Bohra is attacked and called a moron. But his point is unassailable. What kind of Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi sect of Shia Islam can remain indefinitely without knowing their spiritual leader? Shias are required to know their Imam (or at least his representative) and pledge their allegiance to him at all times. Pretending that this is not the case does not make the fatal problem go away.

We are Dawoodi Bohras, and are referred to as reformists or progressives because of our struggle to bring social reforms in the community. We accept the religious authority and staus of the Dai. What we challenge is the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.

Reformists accept the religious authority of the Dai? Really? Then why do reformists endlessly criticize his religious directives and the institutions he controls? The fact of the matter, which should be clear to anyone who can think clearly, is that reformists reject the religious authority of the Dai. Even the first part of the paragraph (We are Dawoodi Bohras) is a clear falsehood. The Syedna has wielded his religious authority (which reformists claim they accept) to decree that those who hold reformist beliefs are to be immediately excommunicated, which means that reformists are officially and unequivocally not Dawoodi Bohras. Rebelling against a deceitful charlatan is a good thing in my opinion, but deluding oneself about the logical consequences of one's actions is asinine.

However, it's not just our history, our religion and our way of life that's under attack. Common people and common resources everywhere are daily being laid waste by big corporations, self-centered ruling classes and obscurantist despots.

Our world is beset with problems, problems that are as intractable as they are complex and overwhelming. But then, where there's cruelty and unreason there's also compassion and intellect. And, not to forget that the human spirit, untamed by centuries of oppression, is always our steadfast ally.


The preceding paragraphs have always struck me as very peculiar. Why does the mission statement of a religious reform group sound so much like some left-wing secular humanist manifesto? And has anyone else paid attention to the various short quotes found throughout the website? Occasionally you find a verse of the Quran or a saying of the Prophet thrown in here and there. But more often than not, the quotes are the maxims of secular humanists, often written by explicitly religion-hating atheists! (Mencken, Vonnegut, Hume etc.). The most flagrant of these quotes (which I can't find on the website currently, perhaps it was recently removed) is attributed to the Roman philosopher Seneca the Younger: "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful". It is hard to escape the conclusion that many reformists view the believing Bohras as the common people, the Kothar as the rulers, and themselves as the wise. I believe this is why reformists have seemingly never bothered to figure out whether or not their claims for reform are compatible with the framework of the Dawoodi Bohra religion; religion seems to ultimately be of little importance to them.

As further evidence, during Ramadan, this website chose to feature a religiously flippant and borderline insulting article, centered on "Muslims Lite" and how the author, whose articles are often featured here, "is with them all the way". Now it is not my place to judge another man's religiosity. And I can certainly appreciate how a Bohra who grows up seeing Islam being manipulated in such a disgusting manner can end up becoming cynical about religion as a whole. Nevertheless, the problems afflicting the Bohra community are fundamentally religious in nature and require a religious solution. Attempts to offer secular social/political solutions to religious corruption is like offering antibiotics to someone who shattered their leg in a car accident; it does not address the underlying problem at all.

I am hoping this post will start some useful debate. However, I humbly ask that certain types of responses are NOT given. As for any faithful Dawoodi Bohra who wants to defend the priesthood, please write those posts on a different thread. The difference between our ways of thinking is too great, and further discussion is pointless.

Equally pointless would be some rant about how corrupt and horrible the priesthood is. As stated earlier, I already know the sky is blue.

What I am interested in is people with reformist outlooks explaining:

a) why (despite all the voluminous evidence suggesting otherwise) they believe the Bohra priesthood is capable of being reformed, and more importantly

b) how it is possible to believe that the past few Syednas have been astoundingly corrupt while still maintaining faith in the central tenets that distinguish Dawoodi Bohras from all other groups.


Lastly, I want to make it clear that my criticisms of the reform movement do not come out of any ill will. I actually have a lot of respect for people who speak out against corruption and injustice. But good intentions are not all that matter. The reform movement does not have a viable intellectual foundation, and attempts to reform the unreformable will always be doomed to failure.



AmmarHussaini
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:37 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#2

Unread post by AmmarHussaini » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:46 pm

very well written post, but unfortunately no change is expected in bohri life for coming long years, I have been roaming in different countries and areas but I can see crows are black and bohras are dumb every where.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#3

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:42 am

Kansas
Interesting write up, I enjoyed reading your POV. I disagree on few points. Presenting my thoughts below as a personal opinion , I represent only myself and no official association be it progressive or kothar ! although I am a member of orthodox bohra community.

Seeking final and absolute reform : It is an ongoing process which has no end, the needs for reform will happen with evolution, be it good reform from corruption or just refreshing reform from outdated practices. Thousands of post that you see on this forum is not new. It is a general chatter / discussion / gossip put in writing. These are happening from thousands of years. This is a common right of people which abde bohra are denied by present clergy.

SKY is Blue, tell me something new : SKY is blue = obvious corruption in the priesthood. People are not blind, they have just closed their eyes, and such avenues (forum, press conferences, articles) helped few if not thousands open their eye and see the beautiful blue sky of freedom rather then bow down in submission and inferiority. Again it is a continuous process of awakening with no set target date. Results are achieved every day when any soul is awakened to oppressive acts of kothar Inc.

Physical Presence of Leadership for Guidance : You mentioned about mandatory presence of physical leaders to guide the faithful and believers till world ends. Why is the dependence on physical leadership ? and if such dependence is a compulsion by Allah, then why are these leaders hidden ? these are man made concepts. Because when Allah made it compulsory for people to have a leader, he sent many many worthy non hidden leaders who set an example for their time and time after they are long gone. They perished, their values, virtues and message resonates through history. And these values are common and vital for humans to co-exist.

We need to understand concept of leadership more intelligently. Do we limit our imagination of leadership to a physical human form or it can be the content, message, value, principle, theory, philosophy, practice that is required to walk on siraate-e-mustaqeem. I believe in the genuineness of a leader by the content he/she/it represents. If one’s spirituality is dependent on a physical human form for salvation, then it would border on worshipping be it human or idol ?

Rejection of Religious Directives by PDBs by priesthood : which religious directives of the priesthood is rejected ; is it kadambosi, sajda to humans, maatam inclusions in the prayers and occasions, or any other which I may not have understood ?

Should bohraism be rejected or accepted absolutely : As far as I understand bohra doctrines, few principles are exaggerated and unacceptable to me. I quietly choose not to follow them keeping the bigger principles of survival and human virtues in mind. We all belong to some community in larger or small perspectives. All of them have flaws and advantages. This is how the world is. Deal with it. There is no running away to something pristine or perfect community. Instead of pondering over rejecting or selecting I simple choose to enjoy the benefits it brings and strive to correct the flaws.


You seem to be seeking perfection, absolute answers in black and white. There are none, this is how life is meant to be. It is the very nature and science of life. This is how we get wiser. There is nothing wrong with PDBs mission statement or ideologies. A tiny action is far more better than boldest intentions !



kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#4

Unread post by kansas » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:18 pm

humanbeing:

I also enjoyed reading your POV. I found it insightful, particularly your observation that I like things to be black and white. I have heard that from many others!

I do have some qualms with your response though.

You write:

I am a member of orthodox bohra community.

But you also write:

You mentioned about mandatory presence of physical leaders to guide the faithful and believers till world ends. Why is the dependence on physical leadership ? and if such dependence is a compulsion by Allah, then why are these leaders hidden ? these are man made concepts.

And:

If one’s spirituality is dependent on a physical human form for salvation, then it would border on worshipping be it human or idol ?

I would argue that these statements are as contradictory as saying "I am a married bachelor" or "I am a member of the orthodox Muslim community, I just do not believe in the prophecy of Muhammad". If you are a member of the orthodox Bohra community, then you are obligated to believe in the Imam uz-Zaman and his inspiration of the Dai Mutlaq. After all, this is the belief that separates Dawoodi Bohras from all other sects.

As far as I understand bohra doctrines, few principles are exaggerated and unacceptable to me.

The actual number of doctrines you find unacceptable is not what is important. What is important is the centrality of the doctrines you reject. You clearly reject the foundational beliefs of Dawoodi Bohrism, and by remaining within the fold without actually believing, you (along with every other person on this site who claims he is a Dawoodi Bohra but rejects the sect's essence) open yourself to the legitimate charge of being a hypocrite (munafiq).

I do not write this to insult you, only to defend my point that reform-minded Bohras do not have a viable intellectual foundation.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#5

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:22 am

kansas wrote: I would argue that these statements are as contradictory as saying "I am a married bachelor" or "I am a member of the orthodox Muslim community, I just do not believe in the prophecy of Muhammad". If you are a member of the orthodox Bohra community, then you are obligated to believe in the Imam uz-Zaman and his inspiration of the Dai Mutlaq. After all, this is the belief that separates Dawoodi Bohras from all other sects. .
I informed you my position of being a paid orthodox bohra community member. Like thousands of other bohras. What we hold in our hearts as a beliefs are debatable with reference to bohra doctrines or larger Islamic principles !
I believe in concepts of Imam, dai any other concepts that falls in line with Islam and common sense. I have not rejected previous duaats and Imam who led life with Islamic principles. I have not rejected bohra society altogether. The concept of Imam and concept of being hidden are two separate discussions. In my opinion, Imams were hidden earlier for mortal security in that era. It confuses me to understand why is All powerful Imam hidden in these times ?
humanbeing wrote:Why is the dependence on physical leadership ? and if such dependence is a compulsion by Allah, then why are these leaders hidden ?
My words in the post are questions and not statements. I m asking ; why is Imam Hidden ? As I m required to believe in Imam-uz-zaman as obligated by bohra doctrine to remain bohra then I must know my Imam of the times. Muslims follow sunnah of prophet muhammed which is actually message of allah via quran, which is eventually asking you to use your intelligence, compassion, integrity to lead a civil life.
kansas wrote: The actual number of doctrines you find unacceptable is not what is important. What is important is the centrality of the doctrines you reject. You clearly reject the foundational beliefs of Dawoodi Bohrism, and by remaining within the fold without actually believing, you (along with every other person on this site who claims he is a Dawoodi Bohra but rejects the sect's essence) open yourself to the legitimate charge of being a hypocrite (munafiq).
According to me, hiding of Imam was a political necessity and not a doctrine. Correct me if I am wrong please. Please educate me on foundational belief of Dawoodi bohraism ; is it about believing in Imam and his Dai or is it believing in “Hidden”-Imam ? I am separating the part “hidden”.
Is there any bohra doctrine that specifically obligates an Imam to remain hidden ?
Are there any guidelines or scenario stated by bohra doctrines to announce identity of hidden imam ?
Are bohra doctrines higher then Islamic principles and common sense ?
Imam has remain hidden for so long that bohra / shia / Islamic guidelines has changed its fundamentals for a bohra muslim !
Munafiq is inappropriate accusation when I question bohra doctrines. Prove that bohra doctrines are worth believing ! specially with reference to hidden imam’s duration and acts of bohra priesthood !
Please don’t compare the bohra leadership with prophet muhammed; he Was not hidden, he was accountable for his words and action by his own virtues and character.



zinger
Posts: 1952
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#6

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:08 am

Allow me to try. I love getting into theosophical debates with you because you make a lot of sense at times :D
humanbeing wrote:
kansas wrote: I would argue that these statements are as contradictory as saying "I am a married bachelor" or "I am a member of the orthodox Muslim community, I just do not believe in the prophecy of Muhammad". If you are a member of the orthodox Bohra community, then you are obligated to believe in the Imam uz-Zaman and his inspiration of the Dai Mutlaq. After all, this is the belief that separates Dawoodi Bohras from all other sects. .
I informed you my position of being a paid orthodox bohra community member. Like thousands of other bohras. What we hold in our hearts as a beliefs are debatable with reference to bohra doctrines or larger Islamic principles !
I believe in concepts of Imam, dai any other concepts that falls in line with Islam and common sense. I have not rejected previous duaats and Imam who led life with Islamic principles. I have not rejected bohra society altogether. The concept of Imam and concept of being hidden are two separate discussions. In my opinion, Imams were hidden earlier for mortal security in that era. It confuses me to understand why is All powerful Imam hidden in these times ? IF THE IMAMS WERE HIDDEN THEN, WHEN THERE WERE NO BOMBS, WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ETC, DONT YOU THINK THAT THAT IS REASON ENOUGH FOR HIM TO BIDE HIS TIME TILL THE TIME IS RIGHT? THE NUMBER OF ENEMIES AN IMAM MIGHT HAVE ISNT REDUCED, IT HAS INCREASED OVER THE YEARS
humanbeing wrote:Why is the dependence on physical leadership ? and if such dependence is a compulsion by Allah, then why are these leaders hidden ANSWERED ABOVE. ?
My words in the post are questions and not statements. I m asking ; why is Imam Hidden ? As I m required to believe in Imam-uz-zaman as obligated by bohra doctrine to remain bohra NOT JUST BOHRA BRO, BUT SHIA DOCTRINEthen I must know my Imam of the times BEING AWARE OF HIM, YES. KNOWING HIS IDENTITY, NOT NECESSARILY . Muslims follow sunnah of prophet muhammed which is actually message of allah via quran, which is eventually asking you to use your intelligence, compassion, integrity to lead a civil life.
kansas wrote: The actual number of doctrines you find unacceptable is not what is important. What is important is the centrality of the doctrines you reject. You clearly reject the foundational beliefs of Dawoodi Bohrism, and by remaining within the fold without actually believing, you (along with every other person on this site who claims he is a Dawoodi Bohra but rejects the sect's essence) open yourself to the legitimate charge of being a hypocrite (munafiq).
According to me, hiding of Imam was a political necessity and not a doctrine TRUE. THE SAME HOLDS TRUE TODAY TOO. THERE ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE KILLING SHIAS TODAY. IMAGINE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY LAY THEIR HANDS ON THE SHIA IMAM . Correct me if I am wrong please. Please educate me on foundational belief of Dawoodi bohraism ; is it about believing in Imam and his Dai or is it believing in “Hidden”-ImamITS ABOUT BELIEVING IN THE IMAM AND HIS DAI. THE "HIDDEN" IS FOR REASONS CITED ABOVE ? I am separating the part “hidden”.
Is there any bohra doctrine that specifically obligates an Imam to remain hidden NO. ANSWERED ABOVE WHY BUT?
Are there any guidelines or scenario stated by bohra doctrines to announce identity of hidden imam THE DAI WILL ANNOUNCE IT (NOW DONT GET INTO WHO ANNOUNCES THE DAI :lol: ) ?
Are bohra doctrines higher then Islamic principles and common sense NOPE. WHERE DID YOU GET THAT FROM? ?
Imam has remain hidden for so long that bohra / shia / Islamic guidelines has changed its fundamentals for a bohra muslim AGAIN, NOPE. WHERE DID YOU GET THAT FROM? !
Munafiq is inappropriate accusation when I question bohra doctrines ARRE!!! WE WITH OUR BELIEFS ARE LABELLED AS MUNAFIQS ARE WE NOT??? . Prove that bohra doctrines are worth believing NO MY FRIEND, NO ONE HAS TO PROVE THAT A RELIGOUS DOCTRINE IS WORTH BELIEVING IN. IF YOU THINK ITS NOT, THEN YOU SHOULD NOT BE A PART OF THAT BELIEF SYSTEM AT ALL ! specially with reference to hidden imam’s duration and acts of bohra priesthood !
Please don’t compare the bohra leadership with prophet muhammed; he Was not hidden, he was accountable for his words and action by his own virtues and character.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#7

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:02 pm

zinger wrote:IF THE IMAMS WERE HIDDEN THEN, WHEN THERE WERE NO BOMBS, WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ETC, DONT YOU THINK THAT THAT IS REASON ENOUGH FOR HIM TO BIDE HIS TIME TILL THE TIME IS RIGHT? THE NUMBER OF ENEMIES AN IMAM MIGHT HAVE ISNT REDUCED, IT HAS INCREASED OVER THE YEARS
Very Naïve of us to think these. Imam is all powerfull, super strong, infallible, bravest of all, courageous ameerul mumineen, carrying on the legacy of Prophet Muhammed, Imam Ali, Imam Hussain.
These are silly and non relevant reasons for a leader who claims ownership of his followers souls and commands over heaven and hell ! I hope the above are your personal understanding of Hidden Imam’s dilemma !
zinger wrote:THE SAME HOLDS TRUE TODAY TOO. THERE ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE KILLING SHIAS TODAY. IMAGINE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY LAY THEIR HANDS ON THE SHIA IMAM
My response Same as above !
zinger wrote:BEING AWARE OF HIM, YES. KNOWING HIS IDENTITY, NOT NECESSARILY
What do you mean by that !!
zinger wrote:ARRE!!! WE WITH OUR BELIEFS ARE LABELLED AS MUNAFIQS ARE WE NOT???
When we are guided to act like a hypocrite by kothar, what do you expect ! they call it “taqqiya” in disguise !
zinger wrote:NO MY FRIEND, NO ONE HAS TO PROVE THAT A RELIGOUS DOCTRINE IS WORTH BELIEVING IN. IF YOU THINK ITS NOT, THEN YOU SHOULD NOT BE A PART OF THAT BELIEF SYSTEM AT ALL
When the Kothar and Shia put a tall claim on hidden Imam the only salvator of muslims, then the onus of proving lies on them. Allah ordained humankind to believe in him and thus he sent several messengers to prove his claim. Those messengers did not go into hiding as part of belief.
Your explanation of remaining hidden stands valid on a immediate threat to life, and not as a belief or practice. Our Imam must be brave enough to claim leadership.
There are thousands of borhas who are ready to go qurbaan with jaan and maal and there are millions of shiaa ready to protect the worried Imam.



abde53
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#8

Unread post by abde53 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:32 pm

Imams were hidden earlier for mortal security in that era. It confuses me to understand why is All powerful Imam hidden in these times ? IF THE IMAMS WERE HIDDEN THEN, WHEN THERE WERE NO BOMBS, WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ETC, DONT YOU THINK THAT THAT IS REASON ENOUGH FOR HIM TO BIDE HIS TIME TILL THE TIME IS RIGHT? THE NUMBER OF ENEMIES AN IMAM MIGHT HAVE ISNT REDUCED, IT HAS INCREASED OVER THE YEARS
Bhai Zinger
Aagar Imam is afraid for his own life then how can he provide saftey and protection for his followers? Are we to believe that our Imam is Coward (nauzubillah) when our Rasullullah was always in the forefront to guide his followers even in Makkaha when his own tribe was against him.
As Adam bhai has said the only Dai can identify the true Imam so is is possible that Imam may in Zahoor and our Dai are purposely not identifying him because there are so many Dais and our Imam may be confused how to identify a true Dai, a Dai of Alvi, a Sulemani Dai, a Muffy Dai, a Qutbi Dai,or every Dai is talking to Imam Ul Zaman of their choice. Is it possible that we may have many Imam U Zamaan too like Alvi Imam, Sulemani Imam, Muffy Imam and Qutbi Imam too
I am now totally lost and confused Bohra ( I did not say Dawoodi Bohra)



zinger
Posts: 1952
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#9

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:57 pm

abde53 wrote:
Imams were hidden earlier for mortal security in that era. It confuses me to understand why is All powerful Imam hidden in these times ? IF THE IMAMS WERE HIDDEN THEN, WHEN THERE WERE NO BOMBS, WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ETC, DONT YOU THINK THAT THAT IS REASON ENOUGH FOR HIM TO BIDE HIS TIME TILL THE TIME IS RIGHT? THE NUMBER OF ENEMIES AN IMAM MIGHT HAVE ISNT REDUCED, IT HAS INCREASED OVER THE YEARS
Bhai Zinger
Aagar Imam is afraid for his own life then how can he provide saftey and protection for his followers? Are we to believe that our Imam is Coward (nauzubillah) when our Rasullullah was always in the forefront to guide his followers even in Makkaha when his own tribe was against him.
As Adam bhai has said the only Dai can identify the true Imam so is is possible that Imam may in Zahoor and our Dai are purposely not identifying him because there are so many Dais and our Imam may be confused how to identify a true Dai, a Dai of Alvi, a Sulemani Dai, a Muffy Dai, a Qutbi Dai,or every Dai is talking to Imam Ul Zaman of their choice. Is it possible that we may have many Imam U Zamaan too like Alvi Imam, Sulemani Imam, Muffy Imam and Qutbi Imam too
I am now totally lost and confused Bohra ( I did not say Dawoodi Bohra)

good for you. stay confused!!!



kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#10

Unread post by kansas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:18 pm

humanbeing:

you wrote:

Munafiq is inappropriate accusation when I question bohra doctrines. Prove that bohra doctrines are worth believing !

I do not accuse you of hypocrisy for the actual questioning of Bohra doctrines. For doing that, I would only accuse you of having a functioning brain. But the hypocrites in Medina at the time of the Prophet were those who outwardly professed belief in Islam but secretly did not believe. You do not believe in the fundamental beliefs that distinguish a Dawoodi Bohra from all others, yet you remain an active, dues paying member. There is hypocrisy in that position, particularly in giving money to people you know will use it in a corrupt, oppressive way. This makes you indirectly but partially responsible for the outrages the priesthood are able to commit thanks to their spectacular wealth and power. And why are you asking me to prove Bohra doctrines are worth believing? I have clearly stated my position that Dawoodi Bohrism is an unreformable, absolute falsehood!

Please educate me on foundational belief of Dawoodi bohraism ; is it about believing in Imam and his Dai or is it believing in “Hidden”-Imam ?

The foundational belief of Dawoodi Bohrism is that the 21st Imam went into occultation, but continues to guide the true believers by guiding the Dai Mutlaq, and that believing in and following the Dai Mutlaq is an absolute necessity for any believer to earn God's pleasure. And this is why this whole reformist project is a fool's errand. What you or any other person thinks about this doctrine or that doctrine simply does not matter in the slightest. Ismaili Islam does not ask for the flock's opinion on religious matters, Shias in general believe that if laypersons interpret the religion, it will end up completely corrupted; that is why there has to be an Imam!

Are bohra doctrines higher then Islamic principles and common sense ?

YES!! And where did you get this idea about the importance of Islamic principles or common sense? From the Quran? Well, that is why you are only supposed to read the Quran without understanding its meaning.

The only conversation reform minded Bohras should be having is whether they should transfer their allegiance to another Muslim sect or whether they should create a new Bohra sect they can shape as they see fit. As the past 40 years of the reform movement so eloquently demonstrates, anything else is just a gigantic waste of time.



SBM
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#11

Unread post by SBM » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:15 pm

The only conversation reform minded Bohras should be having is whether they should transfer their allegiance to another Muslim sect or whether they should create a new Bohra sect they can shape as they see fit.
Which Muslim sect represents true Islam?



SBM
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#12

Unread post by SBM » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:51 pm

Br or Sr Kansas
I read your very articulate article. I deduce from your post that you are a Non Bohra and Non Shia Muslim since you clearly advocate Bohras to quit this sect and join another Muslim Sect. I am still looking for a Muslim Sect which follows the True Islam preached by Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)
You advocate that Bohraism is non reformable and that is why one should just quit. When Islam was propagated by Prophet Mohammed and when he was going thru difficult time and many of his friends did not believe him, he thought whether he was doing right thing on not, fortunately for us he was guided by Allaha and whenever he doubted his mission, Allaha provided him the guidance.
Well no one can compare to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and his reform to those Arabs (please excuse my analogy as I do compare Arabs of Jahiliyat to current state of Abdes) but it is thru a slow process of Prophet's patience, he was able to change the minds of many.
You mentioned about solution of quitting the sect that reminds me of a story " One time one of the Community activist went to a school and saw students smoking under a nice shady tree, he complained to the Principal that lot of students are smoking and he should do something about it, days later when that activist called the Principal and asked him if he has taken any steps for students to stop smoking he replied yes I did, I order the tree to be cut" so they can not smoke under the shade" My point is we have to work to reform the root cause of the problem
You can not bring reform from outside, look what is happening in Middle East when Western Powers tried to impose their reform as compared to reform which came from within (Iran is an example even though West will make you believe Iran as a failed state)
This forum has opened many eyes and there are people who are now standing up against oppression and corruption. It will take time.
We always need a good Shepherd to guide us otherwise we will be moving in different direction as is happening in many Muslim Countries.
Unfortunately Muslim community is not producing any more Sir Syed and Dr Iqbal to show the right path, but we have to continue with that struggle
I have been told many times whenever I criticized USA for its policies towards Muslims that if I do not like it go back to other country and my answer is always this is my country and I want to make sure that I can reform bigots likes you by staying here and voicing my opposition to the ills of the country and society.
I hope you get the point that running away in not the solution but cowardice, standing in middle of battle ground and fighting to make it right is bravery. Many of us are proud to be Bohras because of its rich culture and family ties. Bohras still command respect because of it peaceful nature and whether we like it or not it is one of the most advanced and political savvy sect in Islam.
May Allaha help us all



kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#13

Unread post by kansas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:41 pm

SBM:

You wrote:

I deduce from your post that you are a Non Bohra and Non Shia Muslim since you clearly advocate Bohras to quit this sect and join another Muslim Sect.

You are correct. I was born and raised as a Dawoodi Bohra though.

I am still looking for a Muslim Sect which follows the True Islam preached by Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)

Unfortunately you are going to be looking for a very long time! However, some sects offer at least the hope of reform and the ability to disagree with their scholars on all sorts of issues, as they never claim that these scholars were infallible. That option is simply not available to Dawoodi Bohras, who believe their leader is ultimately chosen and protected from error by God Himself.

You advocate that Bohraism is non reformable and that is why one should just quit. When Islam was propagated by Prophet Mohammed and when he was going thru difficult time and many of his friends did not believe him, he thought whether he was doing right thing on not, fortunately for us he was guided by Allaha and whenever he doubted his mission, Allaha provided him the guidance.
Well no one can compare to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and his reform to those Arabs (please excuse my analogy as I do compare Arabs of Jahiliyat to current state of Abdes) but it is thru a slow process of Prophet's patience, he was able to change the minds of many


I believe your analogy actually proves the opposite of what you are claiming. The Prophet did not try to slowly "reform" Arab paganism, he came to replace it, as it was irredeemable.

My point is we have to work to reform the root cause of the problem

The root cause of the problem is that the Syedna is a fraud and there is no hidden infallible Imam guiding him. How can that be reformed? The sentence 2 plus 2 equals 5 can not be "reformed", it is just wrong and that is all.

You can not bring reform from outside, look what is happening in Middle East when Western Powers tried to impose their reform as compared to reform which came from within

Who is advocating "reform from outside"? Certainly not me. I would consider my position "secession from within".

Many of us are proud to be Bohras because of its rich culture and family ties.

I would agree Bohras have a lot to be proud of. But our distinguishing foundational religious beliefs are not among these things. Besides, culture, family, intelligence, hard-workingness and all the other praiseworthy Bohra qualities could be transferred to a new Bohra sect if Bohras are unwilling to join an existing community.



Humsafar
Posts: 2508
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#14

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:48 am

Kansas,
Nothing much has changed since we discussed this topic six months ago. You've nothing new to say.
In my opinion, this question remains by far the singular most important issue facing Dawoodi Bohras today.
No, it is not. The succession of the Dai and the near certain split of the community is the singular most important issue facing Dawoodi Bohras today.

I will just repeat what I said last time.
a) For reformists the Imam is not the issue. It is an article of faith. It is a given, just like acceptance of the Quran being the word of Allah or Mohammed being the prophet are a given. (This is not to equate the two givens but just to make a point about faith). Yes, the Imam has failed (so far) to make good on his promises but that is an overarching issue for all Bohras and not just the reformists. The fact is that the vast majority of Borhas do not care about the Imam one way or the other.

b) Reformists are not trying to "reform" the corrupt Dais. The idea is to expose their misdeeds and bring them to account. What Ghulam Mohammed and other reformists have been doing is just that. Reformists are also trying to educate Bohras about their faith and show how the corrupt Kothar is distorting it for its own ends. Has this helped? Not as much as one would have liked but the failure is not due to lack of effort from reformists. So long as Bohras just grin and bear it no matter what reformists do nothing will change. This is very important to understand.

As to your question, is "reform" possible? Yes, it is. Udaipur is a shining example of it. It is possible when Bohras in enough numbers say enough is enough things can change overnight. It did for us in Udaipur and so many other places albeit in smaller scale. Call it reform, revolt, subversion or whatever, the label does not matter. What matters is that change is possible, and people have the power to bring it about. Once they make up their mind the Dais, their facade of infallibility and royalty, the concept of Imam and everything else that is false and fake will fall by the wayside. That is the bottom line. The ball has always been in the people's court.

I've nothing more to say on this matter as we have discussed it before. However, my questions to you are:

1) You are an ex-Bohra, and yet you are spending awful lot of time on this site and forum. Why? What is your agenda?

2) If "reform" is not possible then what do you suggest disgruntled Bohras should do? Form another sect? Or join another sect? If so, which one would you recommend? Which one did you join?



SBM
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#15

Unread post by SBM » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:03 pm

some sects offer at least the hope of reform and the ability to disagree with their scholars on all sorts of issues, as they never claim that these scholars were infallible.
And which sects are that offer the hope of reform, As I understand most of Muslim sects have very rigid rules, You can not talk about reform with any sects in Islam otherwise you are classified as heretic,Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Allama Iqbal did try to bring reform and how did Muslim Mulvis treated them, They were called Kafirs of the time. In our time Dr Engineer, Dr Tariq Ramadan and many have tried from outside and where did it take them?
If you join any sect, it has to have a leader and that leader has enough surrogates who will agree whatever he says and there lies the problem of reform. You have to be part of that circle and then slowly change the system and bring reform.
Please tell us which sect of Islam allows you to elect a Islamic Scholar as leader with a term limit?
I just this piece in Dawn and may be it is worth reading for everyone
http://www.dawn.com/news/1125494/why-ar ... discussion
Why are matters of faith beyond discussion?
By Badar Iqbal Chaudhary



truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#16

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:00 pm

well the problem I have about bohra ism is the concept of believing in the dai to go to heaven. this principal is totally unislamic and nowhere is it mentioned in the quran or hadeeths. as far as I am concerned I will only follow the pillars of islam and try to be a good human being. these concepts about dai guiding you to heaven is nothing but concepts made up by men



kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#17

Unread post by kansas » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:01 pm

Humsafar:

You wrote:

Nothing much has changed since we discussed this topic six months ago. You've nothing new to say.

Well I suppose this is true, but I do find it strange you would say that to someone who has posted here only 13 times. What new things have you been saying over 14 years and 2,365 posts? Besides, if saying something new was a criterion for posting, this site would quickly shut down.

The succession of the Dai and the near certain split of the community is the singular most important issue facing Dawoodi Bohras today.

Well, if you think it is that important whether the last Syedna is succeeded by his son or by his brother, then fine. We will just have to disagree.

a) For reformists the Imam is not the issue. It is an article of faith.

You wrote the following in February...

Now as to the issue of infallibility, it is a peculiar Shiite tenet which was introduced in a specific historical context and has evolved over time into a fundamental article of faith. But anyone who can sustain a thought for more than five seconds knows that this is pure fiction. It is a relic of the past, and we can keep it as community heirloom and regard it as something cute and corny but we don't have to believe in it as gospel truth. Our brand of Ismailism has to evolve. Maybe it would be too radical to question the Imam's infallibility right away but we as thinking and aware Bohras must not allow the Dai to get away with that claim.

This quote is a perfect example of what I meant when I accused reformists having a fundamentally unserious attitude about religion. You say Bohra belief in the Imam is an article of faith, but deep down you view it as a bunch of nonsense, only paying lip-service to an obvious absurdity for fear of seeming too radical to the believing flock. First you want to "disabuse" Bohras of the Dai's infallibilty, then you will work on the whole Imam business later. But once you are done, what is left? Certainly not Dawoodi Bohrism.

Yes, the Imam has failed (so far) to make good on his promises

The Imam has not just failed (so far). He allowed a 100 year reign of two brazenly corrupt Syednas to go unchallenged. That is more than enough evidence that his promises are worthless.

but that is an overarching issue for all Bohras and not just the reformists.

This is incorrect. This is not an issue for believing Bohras, they can just claim that the past Syednas have all been perfect and the Imam is guiding the community as promised. It is only reformists who are stuck in an unescapable logical trap. By criticizing the Syedna, reformists are logically bound to then reject the infallibility of the Syedna and the inspiration of the Imam, thereby leaving themselves as non-Dawoodi Bohras.

Reformists are not trying to "reform" the corrupt Dais. The idea is to expose their misdeeds and bring them to account.

Expose their misdeeds? This sort of insinuates that their misdeeds are hidden. One thing I respect about the Kothar is how shockingly brazen they are. They do not hide what they are about in the least. They charge fees for a masella space in the masjid for God's sake! The Syedna lives in an opulent palace and shoots lions in the face! Reformists are fooling themselves when they claim they are heroically opening people's eyes. Speaking from personal experience, I have a large family and friend circle, some of whom are Ph.Ds and some who have not completed the 10th standard. Other than a very few die-hard followers here and there, everybody knows they are getting fleeced. And the less educated ones see it as clearly as anybody else. Although admittedly fascinating in a tabloid sort of way, noone needs to know about Yusuf Najmuddin or what is going on in some jamaat in Uganda to know how corrupt the Kothar is; going to one's own masjid is more than sufficient.

Reformists are also trying to educate Bohras about their faith and show how the corrupt Kothar is distorting it for its own ends.

It is the reformists who need to be educated about the Bohra faith. The Bohra faith IS faith in the Syedna and his dictates, that is why Bohras follow him! And disobeying the Syedna leads to the renunciation of the faith. Why is this so difficult to see?

Has this helped? Not as much as one would have liked but the failure is not due to lack of effort from reformists.

If a task is impossible, then even an infinite amount of effort will be in vain.

As to your question, is "reform" possible? Yes, it is. Udaipur is a shining example of it.

I think a flickering, dim example is more accurate. We are talking about a revolt in one city that started 40 years ago that has spread nowhere and still has not wrestled with the issue of how one can remain a Dawoodi Bohra after rejecting it's essential tenets.

Once (the people) make up their mind the Dais, their facade of infallibility and royalty, the concept of Imam and everything else that is false and fake will fall by the wayside.

This statement baffles me. You clearly are stating that the Dais and Imam are false!! You are admitting the essence of Dawoodi Bohrism is a fraud and must be replaced with something else. But that is exactly what I am saying! Have you not proved my point? So why do you dislike my views so vehemently?

1) You are an ex-Bohra, and yet you are spending awful lot of time on this site and forum. Why? What is your agenda?

You asked me this last time, you seem very concerned with people having devious agendas! And again, I am not sure how someone who writes 13 posts and occasionally visits this site can be accused of spending an awful lot of time. But since you asked, I will tell you.

Being born and raised into a Bohra family and then spending years figuring out whether I wanted to remain a Bohra before I finally left, Bohra issues naturally interest me.

My agenda is basically as follows:

1- I find the Kothar to be an abomination, and speaking out against such things is good from a religious point of view.

2- I actually respect reformists' intentions and want to offer my sincere advice to stop wasting their time reforming what can not be reformed.

3. I would like a new Bohra organization that explicitly rejects the Syedna to be formed. As I stated previously, I generally find Bohras to be excellent people and would like the opportunity to interact and more importantly expose my kids to the culture and people without compromising my religious beliefs.

2) If "reform" is not possible then what do you suggest disgruntled Bohras should do? Form another sect? Or join another sect? If so, which one would you recommend? Which one did you join?

This is for Bohras to decide. Either option would have its own set of benefits and drawbacks. But both would be infinitely better than the status quo. I became a Sunni Muslim. Having said that, I can not recommend Sunnism wholeheartedly. Sunnism has its own deep seated flaws. But a giant plus for Sunnism is that noone is claimed to have been infallible except the Prophet. This leaves the ability to reject what one feels is un-Islamic intact.



SBM
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#18

Unread post by SBM » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:46 am

3. I would like a new Bohra organization that explicitly rejects the Syedna to be formed. As I stated previously, I generally find Bohras to be excellent people and would like the opportunity to interact and more importantly expose my kids to the culture and people without compromising my religious beliefs.
Your suggestion sounds like the same which is now being used by Kalifa Ibrahim aka Abu Baghdadi of ISIL (Islamic State), Seems like he did follow your advice, he did not like Sunni Tribes in Iraq and thus formed his organization and now we see the results
Your above solutions is nothing more than what Zionist would love, DIVIDE-DIVIDE AND DIVIDE.............



ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#19

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:59 am

"3. I would like a new Bohra organization that explicitly rejects the Syedna to be formed. As I stated previously, I generally find Bohras to be excellent people and would like the opportunity to interact and more importantly expose my kids to the culture and people without compromising my religious beliefs."

Neither this or that is going to happen. Nothing at all.

Bro. Kansas,
Be content with what you have achieved , which is much. Do not fall back.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#20

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:31 am

kansas wrote: My agenda is basically as follows:
1- I find the Kothar to be an abomination, and speaking out against such things is good from a religious point of view.
2- I actually respect reformists' intentions and want to offer my sincere advice to stop wasting their time reforming what can not be reformed.
3. I would like a new Bohra organization that explicitly rejects the Syedna to be formed. As I stated previously, I generally find Bohras to be excellent people and would like the opportunity to interact and more importantly expose my kids to the culture and people without compromising my religious beliefs..
Your agenda is same to many free thinking bohras, except the part where you are saying kothar cannot be reformed. I support bohra soceity’s civic structure of governance. You are debating over spiritual belief of bohraism to have faith, trust and obedience in hidden imam and his visible representative. I have no issues in believing this theories as long as limits of austerity, honesty and other virtues are adhered by such representatives.

You mentioned about exposing your children to bohra culture ! what in bohra culture you like and be associated with ? without compromising on your religious belief.

We all are picking and choosing our beliefs and practices. Do you suggest anyone of us are pristine pious perfect follower of Islam, be it a sunni shia or bohras ! in a way we all are munafiqs !

Reformist are reforming the secular aspect of the community. Bring scientific accountability and transparency in the structure. Whoever is handling public funds must be accountable. bottom to top !

Ask me to believe in hidden Imam or singing cows .. I will believe, as long as virtues of humanity are honored !



seeker110
Posts: 1725
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#21

Unread post by seeker110 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:45 am

Br. Kansas should meet Dr juzar Bandukwala.



kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#22

Unread post by kansas » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:52 pm

Well it seems that this thread has basically come to an end. I am thankful to the people that shared their thoughts. But it is disappointing that noone really attempted to address the specific issue I raised in the beginning...

What I am interested in is people with reformist outlooks explaining:

a) why (despite all the voluminous evidence suggesting otherwise) they believe the Bohra priesthood is capable of being reformed, and more importantly

b) how it is possible to believe that the past few Syednas have been astoundingly corrupt while still maintaining faith in the central tenets that distinguish Dawoodi Bohras from all other groups.


Then again, that noone really tried to offer an answer is not that surprising; no logical answer can be given.

There are many people in the world that believe that Jesus was the son of God. And there are also many people that believe that attributing a son to God is an abomination. Let's leave aside which group is right or wrong for the moment. What noone denies is that a religion that can accomodate both beliefs is impossible.

Similarly, a religious group that can simultaneously accomodate people who believe that the Syedna is the infallible agent of the hidden Imam and those who believe the Syedna heads a corrupt and self-serving priesthood can not exist. It is the equivalent of trying to build a masjid/mandir where half the congregation is busy doing namaz while the other half does a pooja for Ganesha.

The Christians in the Middle Ages who decided the Pope and the Catholic Church had corrupted true Christianity didn't endlessly complain about the papacy and call themselves "reformist Catholics". They left and became Protestants!

At what point does praiseworthy criticism of the Kothar begin to outlive it's usefulness? I do not mean to be rude, but at some point endlessly going on and on about the same things starts to resemble effeminate whining and nagging. Boo hoo, the Kothar is so mean and they take so much of my money, boo hoo. Sometimes I think the main purpose of this forum is to provide a place for people to whine and moan about what they are unable to stand up against in real life. Then they can say all their impotent whining is really about "raising awareness" or "highlighting injustice".

It is easy to find fault in what someone else is doing, but it ultimately serves little purpose. Reformists have been complaining for 40 years, it is as clear as day that the Kothar is not listening. Does anyone really think the next 40 years will accomplish what the first 40 did not?

The whole situation is akin to a 30 year old living in his parents' basement who always complains how much he hates living with his parents and how stupid their rules are but at the same time refuses to get his own apartment. There is something childish about the inability to cut the umbilical cord and forge one's own path in life.

Again, one solution is to simply join another Muslim sect. But if Bohras want to maintain their unique ethnic and cultural heritage and live in a community that is free from religious oppression, financially transparent, and open to input from the flock, then the Syedna and Kothar will have to be explicitly rejected and a new community will have to be built from the ground up.



Fateh
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#23

Unread post by Fateh » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:48 pm

Yes i agree with you bro ,do not wait for another substitute but form a substitute your self.Do not wait for Bhagatsingh for revolution but be Bhagatsingh and make a path for others.
Hum to chale the akele hi janibe manzil magar,log aate rahe aur karnva banata gaya.A share from Majrooh sultanpuri saheb not accurate written by me but please correct if anybody know.



ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#24

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:49 am

<It is the equivalent of trying to build a masjid/mandir where half the congregation is busy doing namaz while the other half does a pooja for Ganesha. > unquote

Possible:
Bahaism - a religion founded in Iran in 1863; emphasizes the spiritual unity of all humankind; incorporates Christian and Islamic tenets; many adherents live in the United States; "Bahaism has no public rituals or sacraments and praying is done in private"
faith, religion, religious belief - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#25

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:34 pm

ponga bhori wrote:Bahaism - a religion founded in Iran in 1863; emphasizes the spiritual unity of all humankind; incorporates Christian and Islamic tenets; many adherents live in the United States; "Bahaism has no public rituals or sacraments and praying is done in private"
The founder of Bahaism also claims to be the Imam !! It is just like the Christian missionary where scores of poor people like adivasis in India are lured into accepting Bahai faith, a full fledged campaign is going on especially near Nasik, Maharashtra by a family of ex-Bohras who have converted into Bahaism, many Bohras from Mumbai, Nasik and Devlali have embraced this faith.



ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#26

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:45 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
ponga bhori wrote:Bahaism - a religion founded in Iran in 1863; emphasizes the spiritual unity of all humankind; incorporates Christian and Islamic tenets; many adherents live in the United States; "Bahaism has no public rituals or sacraments and praying is done in private"
The founder of Bahaism also claims to be the Imam !! It is just like the Christian missionary where scores of poor people like adivasis in India are lured into accepting Bahai faith, a full fledged campaign is going on especially near Nasik, Maharashtra by a family of ex-Bohras who have converted into Bahaism, many Bohras from Mumbai, Nasik and Devlali have embraced this faith.
Same efforts are being done in south east asia. I myself attended one of their prayer meetings, which did not have any scripture readings but just some made up moral ending stories. But one attendance cannot be enough to judge it.

I personally like and practice Islam, which I see very close to Bhuddhism practices. Specially the karma, what you sow so shall you reap.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#27

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:10 pm

ponga bhori wrote:Same efforts are being done in south east asia. I myself attended one of their prayer meetings, which did not have any scripture readings but just some made up moral ending stories. But one attendance cannot be enough to judge it.
Even I have attended a few of their meetings but honestly I didn't find it appealing. The faith originates in Iran and they are an off shoot of Shias although Shias consider them to be heretics, during the time of Khomeini thousands of Bahais were executed and they had to flee Iran en mass. They claim to have a following of around a crore which in itself is a highly exaggerated figure, I don't think they are more then a million worldwide. Their headquarters are in Haifa, Israel where their founder is buried.



kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#28

Unread post by kansas » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:00 pm

Ghulam Muhammed:

You recently wrote:

10. And the most important question of all…. If this concept of the appointment of the Imam is so important and pivotal to Islam and its survival, how come nothing (absolutely nothing) has been mentioned about it in the Holy Quran? How come the Messenger of Allah (saws) never mentioned anything about this Imam and his seclusion? Did Allah and His Messenger (saws) forget to tell us about this very important aspect of Islam and its survival? Glory be to Allah! Allah and His Messenger (saws) did not forget anything that was needed for our guidance to Islam. If something is not from the Quran and Sunnah, then it does not form part of Islam… and there is absolutely nothing in either the Holy Quran or the Sunnah about this Imam, his seclusion, about the Dais, about their succession, about their superiority, about their correspondence through ‘ilham’, about …!!!! These are their wishful fantasies and their whims, which have absolutely no basis in the deen of Islam! Can you imagine the deen of Islam being based on these kind of stories…..

My dear brothers and sisters, this Islam is the deen of Truth from Allah Subhanah and based on nothing but the Truth. …. Not some mythology story of a four year old boy hiding in seclusion for approximately 800 years and having the power to correspond with the Syedna by coming in his dreams at will!!! Nothing in Islam is illogical, and this fantastic story of the Imam and the Dai does not have an iota of logic around it!!!!

What we do know is that the Holy Quran is the Book of Allah, which was revealed for our guidance. What we do know is that Mohamed ibn Abdulla (saws) was appointed the Last Messenger of Allah. What we do know is that the deen of Islam was revealed in completion before the death of the Messenger of Allah (saws), and no changes are allowed in that deen. What we must realize today, is that to practice Islam, we only need to follow two things … 1. The Holy Quran and 2. The Messenger of Allah (saws). If anyone is guiding from any other source than the above two divine sources, you can be assured of mis-guidance!


I would like to first state that I agree with your above comments 100%.

But it is undeniable that you have completely rejected the foundation and essence of the Dawoodi Bohra religion. So why do you identify as a reformist? What is it that you are trying to reform? Why are you endlessly pointing out this or that specific instance of corruption when you clearly realize the Dawoodi Bohra religion is at its very core an irredeemable falsehood? Could you please explain what exactly reformists are trying to achieve? And please, no Obama-like platitudes such as "fighting corruption" or "raising awareness".

This is a sincere question, I hope you take the time out to answer.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#29

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:56 am

Kansas

You too first need to make up your mind and then ask questions, as you are coming across very confused. You presented your views on bohraism as total falsehood and yet want to introduce your children to bohra culture.

If you feel bohra community is totally down the drain, you are free to move on … what reformist and other free thinkers wants to do with their bohra connection be it faith or convenience is none of anyone’s business. Either you support it or be an audience. If you find efforts of people in “fighting corruption” and “raising awareness” as platitudes then its futile that any explanations will suffice. Quiet an insensitive approach, where people have lost lives, broken relationships and faced harassment to fight corruption and raise awareness, for you it’s a cliché !



Mkenya
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#30

Unread post by Mkenya » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:01 pm

On one hand we have 'Kansas', a convert to Sunnism, questioning the futility of the efforts of reformists. On the other we have 'humanbeing' and others who feel this forum is a mouthpiece for those (his words) 'have lost lives, broken relationships and faced harassment to fight corruption and raise awareness'. And in between these two extremes, are the gawkers who do not know what they stand for or want. A cursory look at the 'REPLIES" and 'VIEWS" over all headings will bear me out.

So, are we getting anywhere? Not really. All we are doing is to air the dirty (not to them!) laundry of Kothar. Do we hope to make any impact? Never. Look at the 'Arab Springs' in Africa and Middle East. This Forum is purely an academic exercise with lofty dealistic goals and will remain just that; today and for the many tomorrows. I post here when an interesting topic gets underway. Otherwise I threw in my towel to Kothar long time ago when I first heard a waezeen sitting coyly on the takhat dressed in his starched white robes pronounce: "DAAWAT NU AA SAFINU KAYAMAT TUK CHALTU REHSE". He and his cohorts have been proven right time after time.