Is reform truly possible? Part II

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Kaka Akela
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#31

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:36 pm

Bro MKenya:

How true you are, amazingly I think exactly in the same way. The Dawoodi bohra Community will never change its ways due to the momentum it has acquired due to shear number of followers. The amazing part in the West is that the educated followers are so blinded that they not only accept the BS doled out to them but they promote the same to each other. Nothing will change by us talking and writing here as we have no way to get to each and every individual as they do via their total control via verbal media, electronic media etc.etc. The only way things will change is through en-mass revolt and that will never happen. revolt and non-cooperation from a few is not going to make a dent in their evil doings, they will just kick them out as they know they will keep growing geometrically with population increase by birth alone. courts and commissions all have been tried out but nothing worked as they bribe and ignore the findings.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#32

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:05 pm

kansas wrote:But it is undeniable that you have completely rejected the foundation and essence of the Dawoodi Bohra religion. So why do you identify as a reformist? What is it that you are trying to reform? Why are you endlessly pointing out this or that specific instance of corruption when you clearly realize the Dawoodi Bohra religion is at its very core an irredeemable falsehood? Could you please explain what exactly reformists are trying to achieve? And please, no Obama-like platitudes such as "fighting corruption" or "raising awareness".
Firstly, the article posted by me had appeared on the forum long time back and I posted the same as it was relevant to the subject, I have already mentioned that in my post. As regards me, kindly note that Iam NOT a member of reformist group, I have never met Mr.Engineer or Mr. Insaf or any other functionaries ever in my life. Hence Iam not authorised to speak on behalf of the reformist. Iam just like many other members who have seen the ills in the community since years and who speaks out of personal experiences. Moreover I have stopped going to Bohra Masjids since almost 20 years as I prefer to communicate with Allah in confines of my house, I find more peace as compared to the multiplex type Masjids where there is nothing to gain, Masjids have become commercial establishments where the focus is Mola nu ehsan followed by ghani zyaada wajebat aapo ! The bayans are boring and zero down to Mola ni shaan, the Ahle Bayts are only a passing reference.

There is an old gujarati saying "100 teer maaro to ek to laagsej" and that is what happens on this forum. Whether you believe it or not but many Bohras have started rethinking after visiting this forum. You must also remember that we are fighting a monster which has all the money and muscle power and so there cannot be any overnight change. It is extremely difficult for people to suddenly cut off all their ties with relatives and friends hence they seldom come out in the open. Actually the Nass controversy has proved to be a blessing in disguise for Bohras as the ills and corruption in dawat are now more visible and out in public domain.

zinger
Posts: 1978
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#33

Unread post by zinger » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:18 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:"100 teer maaro to ek to laagsej" and that is what happens on this forum. Whether you believe it or not but many Bohras have started rethinking after visiting this forum. You must also remember that we are fighting a monster which has all the money and muscle power and so there cannot be any overnight change. It is extremely difficult for people to suddenly cut off all their ties with relatives and friends hence they seldom come out in the open. Actually the Nass controversy has proved to be a blessing in disguise for Bohras as the ills and corruption in dawat are now more visible and out in public domain.
Kaka Akela and Mkenya bhai,

i will have to second what GM bhai is saying.

There is DEFINITELY an impact that this forum has. it may be at a micro level, it may not result in mass revolution, it may not result in overnight change, but yes, what it does is set of a spark of reality. and if it does this in even one mind, then its enough. this one mind can carry it forward.

i speak for myself. we were a bunch of devout "abdes" of Burhanuddin Maula. i still am at heart, but maybe not an abde of Mufaddal Maula.

When we came across this forum many years ago, we stood in the sidelines, watching in disgust the posts made by certain members and accepted that reformists are indeed Dai and Daawat na Dushman. but every once in a while, came along a post that made us sit back and think. we would then sit an analyse and think about what was written and eventually, the events of the past 9 months opened our eyes completely

now as for the measurable impact of this forum, yes, you are right, there can be none. As GM bhai rightly said, we are fighting a monster which has all the money and muscle power in the world but what can be measured is the change in attitude of devout abdes, myself included. while we are a group of 4, today there are many more in our jamat, albiet closet members, some because they are not comfortable with technology and some because they still view the reformists with suspicion, like we used to in the beginning.

as for the impact, i can proudly tell you this one thing. last year, we know of atleast 2 members who decided to not give a ziafat and put the money to good use. what they did with the money ultimately, we do not know, but atleast we took away one drop from the ocean.

kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#34

Unread post by kansas » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:10 pm

humanbeing:

With all due respect, one of us is confused, but it isn't me.

You presented your views on bohraism as total falsehood and yet want to introduce your children to bohra culture.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9212

The above link is to my first post on this forum. In that post, I tried to explain how Dawoodi Bohras are like Jews in that both groups are not just religious communites; they became ethnic/cultural groups as well. This is why there are atheist Jews who still self-identify as Jews. Although these people have rejected the religious aspects of Judaism, they hold on to their Jewish identity due to their affinity for Jewish culture. And their genetic/ethnic makeup remains the same regardless of what they believe. As an aside, this is also why the Nazis would not spare Jews that converted to Christianity; their issue was with the Jewish race, not the religion.

The same dynamic applies to Dawoodi Bohras. One can reject the religious tenets of Dawoodi Bohrism while still retaining a strong bond to the culture and ethnicity of one's ancestors. The fact that you see my religious rejection of Bohrism along with my desire to introduce my children to Bohra culture as a confused contradiction is just proof that you have not comprehended the multifaceted nature of the Bohra identity.

If you feel bohra community is totally down the drain, you are free to move on

Again, my criticisms have all been leveled at the religious tenets of Bohrism, and I have said nothing to suggest I believe the community is "totally down the drain". In fact, I have made clear my admiration for the Bohra community and the many praiseworthy qualities Bohras generally possess. Furthermore, the fact that we generally are intelligent/ law-abiding/ successful no matter where in the world we live strongly suggests a good gene pool, and this is a blessing that is worth maintaining.

what reformist and other free thinkers wants to do with their bohra connection be it faith or convenience is none of anyone’s business.

I admire your honesty, you at least admit what you (and similar "free thinkers") are doing is largely out of convenience. As I wrote at the top of this thread, reformists pay superficial lip-service to religious reform, but for the most part are secular humanists who actually care little about religion, which is why they never bother to figure out whether the reforms they advocate are compatible with the foundation of the Dawoodi Bohra faith. You yourself have provided the quintessential example of this mindset in this very thread...

Ask me to believe in hidden Imam or singing cows .. I will believe, as long as virtues of humanity are honored !

What else is there left to say? If this one line of yours does not encapsulate a flippant and disrespectful attitude towards religion by someone who first and foremost is a secular humanist, then what does? Even the screenname you chose out of all the other infinite possibilities shows where your allegiance ultimately lies.

And as far as it being "none of anyone's business" what reformists want to do with their Bohra connection, I would caution you about handling a double-edged sword. If it is none of my business to criticize reformists, then it is none of your business to criticize true followers of the Dawoodi Bohra faith. Or to even criticize the Kothar for that matter! After all, their connection to the community may be that of a corrupt parasite, but how is that anyone else's business?

Quiet an insensitive approach, where people have lost lives, broken relationships and faced harassment to fight corruption and raise awareness, for you it’s a cliché !

Sometimes being overly sensitive clouds rational thinking. Having said that, I have already written on this thread that...

I actually have a lot of respect for people who speak out against corruption and injustice. But good intentions are not all that matter. The reform movement does not have a viable intellectual foundation, and attempts to reform the unreformable will always be doomed to failure.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#35

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:41 pm

Bro Kansas,

Your posts are interesting but I disagree with your following comment :-
kansas wrote:If it is none of my business to criticize reformists, then it is none of your business to criticize true followers of the Dawoodi Bohra faith. Or to even criticize the Kothar for that matter! After all, their connection to the community may be that of a corrupt parasite, but how is that anyone else's business?
By your above statement you sound more like the die hard abdes who also use this same rhetoric as they are just not in a position to defend their masters..... I know you are not like them but its just an example.

Reform minded bohras have every right to criticize the Dai and his henchmen for their corrupt practices because they are raising their voice against the blatant violation of human rights indulged by the Dai and every person on this planet has the right to raise his/her voice against such practices. If one cannot raise his voice against a system or community of which he is not a part of then I think that we will have to shut down all the TV channels, newspapers and ban every NGOs and human rights organisations. Moreover the reform minded Bohras speak out more out of concern for their own brethren who are subjected to all sorts of harassments.

Even regarding criticism on religious issues, the reform minded bohras have every right to do the same even if they don't follow the bohra doctrine because although they have rejected bohra doctrines but they have not rejected Islam and just like any other Muslim they have every right to criticize the perverted and unislamic practices of the Dai and question his twisted and distorted versions of Islamic history. Don't sunnis/shias criticise the wahabis and talibans ? What if the wahabi scholar or Taliban fighter says that you have NO right to criticize us just because you are not a wahabi ? What if the shia says that you have no right to criticize us just because you are not a shia ? Hence, every Muslim has a right to speak for Islam in his/her capacity and present his/her point of view.

Ozdundee
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#36

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:02 pm

Apologies for responding to this topic late,

Is Kansasbhai suggesting because the Bohra doctrine is stubborn we should give up reforming , or because we don't believe in it 100% we should feel excluded from right to influence it.

I should remind orthdox or pro SMS or pro SKQ or PDB or just a casual non aligned reformist like many other groups, there is no one criteria that defines Bohra citizenship. Some of us who have decided to practise different religion from Bohraism can still claim birth right based on culture, ethnicity , family, and least but not last humanitarian basis. Some of us have family who are still happy to be on the fence, it is their choice , but I have to protect my relationship with them if they are threatened with excommunication or forced by the oppressive ideology to break with us. Also not all reformists or people who want to push back the oppressive behaviour have the "clout" some of us have. I hope we inspire those who can be encouraged whether they do in open or spirit.

If you want to check how this is done do your own homework and see how global humanitarian principles are applied, and the meaning of true Islamic unity. There is no rule that only Muslims should help Muslims or Shias help Shia . Help comes in both material and ideas from within and outside. Whether you accept or not it is modern day reality and our Prophet SAW himself took refuge from non Muslim. There are many other cases where we can write books after books.

Some reformists whether registered or not , see crime, abuse, extremism in orthodoxy and being silent or turning a blind eye to extreme forms of oppression is uncivilised and in some cases crime in itself ...like not reporting a criminal behaviour in a street issue , or seeing such crimes in mainstay society.

May be you would have done more credit to your impeccable writing skills by concluding what you propose people to do when they see the level of bad practises you described ? Should they turn a blind eye ?

Later you have left a cliff hanger what you expect reformists to do instead, since according to your definition they are not "eligible or authorised " to comment on orthodox issues ?

Mkenya
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#37

Unread post by Mkenya » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:53 am

Whereas I do not possess 'impeccable' writing skills nor the ability to squeeze out nth. degree of arguments with semantics I would like to really lighten up the post with the following. Since I have confessed to my lack of being articulate, the thrust of my post would be lost even if I tried it. So here is my contribution in Gujarati!

Aa Kaka-Bhatija na jagda ma aaje aakha aalam na Vahorao tal-papad (confused) thai gaya che. Aa vishai (subject) uper ghare ghar charcha, bola-chali, unbanaw, ane ghani waqte to hath-chalaki per waat pahonchi jai che. Sadio thi aapni kaum ni prakhiyati (fame), imandari (honesty), uncha sanskar (supreme upbringing) ane namrata (humility) thi aurkhati chali aawi che.

Na jane kyo ewo karo kehr (devilish shadow) aapni kaum uper tuti padyo che ke aaje aapni kaum darbadar (dishevelled) thei gai che. Parkaum na lokone aapni aa dasha (ill-state) joi ne achambo (jolt) jarur thato hashe ke aa kaum ma wikhwaad (wedge) kem padi gayo.

Chalo, chodo parkaum ni waat, teo ne je samajwu hoi te samjhe; pun wahumati (majority) ma aapni kaum pun nathi samajti, ke samajwano inkaar kare che ke aa khatraak (calamity) muddal paisa ni che. Kaum ni aankho uper Nuss ni patti bandhi ne Kaka-Bhatija ye ewo naatak rachawyo (knocked together) che ke kaum ne aaje eik abajo pati widhwa jem aakarshe che. Aakharie aa widhwa (widow!) eik ne sharan (surrender) thasej ane ena akhuth (bottomless) khajana no wilash (debauchery) bhogawshej.

Samachar che ke Kakaye to Saifee Mahal no kabjo kari ane ghar mandi didhu che. Kaka-Bhatija mathi eik kaun kharo dhani (rightful owner) che e koyrana (dilemma) insaaf maate Mumbai High Court ne suprat karel che. Ketli sharam janak ane naak kapawa jewi waat che ke aa naubat (campaign) aatla tabakka (phase) sudhi pohnchi gai che. Aa naatak to chalu rehshe ane eni saathe saathe bairao ne roti banawanu, gharej bethwanu ane bahar koi naukri na karwanu, chokriyo ne bas be chopdij sikshan (minimal education) apawanu, chokriyo ni jaldi kari dewanu, wagere na toot (bogus issues) daakhal (introduce) karta jai che.

Firhaal, labrez pakwano no lahwo (indulgence) lewo, paisa thi maatela (stuffed) cover lewa, aalishaan bungalao ma rehwu, aisho aaram thi hawai jahaaz ma udwu, umda umda wahano (cars) ma safar karwu, band baja ane Burhani Guards sathe aagman (introduction) thawanuu, paisa ni gaba c*o*i wagere wagere ma thi fursat male pachij deen ke deen na usulo uper koi updesh (religion and enlightenment) aapi shake ewa aapna Daio che.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#38

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:04 am

Kansas

Are you aware of the official agenda of the reformist ? their demands are more secular and practical in nature. What people speak here are their personal opinions, but the official demands of the reformist are as follows ( putting forward in my own understanding, some of them)

Accountability and Transparency of dawaat administration at centre and local levels.
Autonomy of administration at local jamaats
Abolish “Raza” system for secular occasions

The above ideas of reform are not against any religious doctrines, please correct me wherever I am wrong. Your explanation of not being confused is stil very confusing. You can cling on to bohra cultures without attesting to its religious belief, while other who wants to, you call them hypocrites. You are most welcome to connect your children to bohra culture or any culture from where one can learn good virtues. After your many posts, I am unable to deduce what exactly you wish to communicate.

There are variety of bohras in the community, extremist abdes to confused bohras to free thinking fence sitters to reformist. They have their own reasons to remain bohra, be it faith, convenience or affiliation !

Time and again who denounce efforts of this forum and reformist in general are not really being honest to themselves, rather being impatient to be rescued in a flash by a knight in shining armour. They want to remain delusional that one day this world is going to be perfect and they want to see it soon.

yusuftopiwala
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#39

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:56 am

Dear All,

Below mentioned points are my personal thoughts.

I think there should not be a situation where few members of a sect feel that there are administrative problems, and hence we should reform it. I think if such is a situation, one can very well leave the sect and form a new sect. Who stops these individuals form forming a new sect?

I believe in “Sajda”, and when I perform “Sajda” to my “Masjood”, it is total submission, it is not partial submission. i.e. I cannot say that I believe in your Lineage, but I do not believe in your administration.

If one claims to be Dawoodi Bohra, then he has to follow all 7 Tenants of Islam. One of the Tenants is “Valayat”. If one believes in “Valayat” then there has to be “Total Submission”, no double standards are accepted.

I have read someone has said that they are happy to be on the edge. I think such people are spine less who do not think good about the jamat but still wants to stay in the jamat, because if they leave the jamat than who will marry their children and where will they be buried after they die.

Someone asked on this forum, who are true Dawoodi Bohra. I believe Religion is on Norm (Kasauti), no one can say that he is on the right path, and what he follows is right. One has to prove it.

I have one question. If you people have doubts on your religious head. How can you Establish your “Namaz”?

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#40

Unread post by seeker110 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:03 am

I like long walks, specially for people like Topiwala.

yusuftopiwala
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#41

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:16 am

Dear Mr. Seeker,

I did not understand your phase. Could you please elaborate, and tell what you want to tell?

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#42

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:09 am

yusuftopiwala wrote: If one claims to be Dawoodi Bohra, then he has to follow all 7 Tenants of Islam. One of the Tenants is “Valayat”. If one believes in “Valayat” then there has to be “Total Submission”, no double standards are accepted.
You have just violated valayat ( total submission) by posting on this forum which is run without raza of SMS.

fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#43

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:13 am

Mr topiwala, Agreed with concepts of valayat. Valayat means mohabbat, correct me if i am wrong.

Valayat differ from cast to cast for SHIAH valayat is for Imam and for us DB valayat is for imams and extended one more step to dai.

You said:
If one claims to be Dawoodi Bohra, then he has to follow all 7 Tenants of Islam. One of the Tenants is “Valayat”. If one believes in “Valayat” then there has to be “Total Submission”, no double standards are accepted.

Does it means if a person is corrupt and you know of wrong doings than you should still believe in him?

Dont ask me for the proof i had seen injustice/discrimination/humiliation around me, its also happening around you as well but because your brain is stopped working and your eyes are closed you cannot feel or see.

Is it our fault if the leader are not working for what they have been appointed? Why should we leave? its our Leader who have to change themselves. They are many positive thinkers on this forum who think our leader will change (i personally have less or no hope).

We had given n number of justification stating why we dont have faith in our current dai preaching, now its your and like minded turn to come up with logical reasons of why you all follow your leader.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#44

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:34 am

[quote="

...........................its also happening around you as well but because your brain is stopped working and your eyes are closed you cannot feel or see.

.[/quote]

Like my good friend would say because he is doing the reverse sajaada .

yusuftopiwala
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#45

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:36 am

I regret I did not introduce myself, I am Ismaili, Dawoodi, Atba-e-Malak Vakil.

The Saheb in whom I believe is not corrupt. He is Benevolent and helps us to understand religion, and if required also helps us with advice and help in financial matters.

Can’t we have healthy religious discussion? Why on this forum I see only posts on money matters?

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#46

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:41 am

Because money corrupts !

truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#47

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:10 am

yusuftopiwala wrote:I regret I did not introduce myself, I am Ismaili, Dawoodi, Atba-e-Malak Vakil.

The Saheb in whom I believe is not corrupt. He is Benevolent and helps us to understand religion, and if required also helps us with advice and help in financial matters.

Can’t we have healthy religious discussion? Why on this forum I see only posts on money matters?
we do discuss on religious topics but whenever you try and argue with these abdes and ask for proof, they do not provide proof, they just start talking all crap

fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#48

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:43 am

yusuftopiwala wrote:I regret I did not introduce myself, I am Ismaili, Dawoodi, Atba-e-Malak Vakil.

The Saheb in whom I believe is not corrupt. He is Benevolent and helps us to understand religion, and if required also helps us with advice and help in financial matters.

Can’t we have healthy religious discussion? Why on this forum I see only posts on money matters?
Because our leader talks only, only and only about MONIES thats it.

kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#49

Unread post by kansas » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:58 am

Ghulam Mohammed:

You wrote:

As regards me, kindly note that Iam NOT a member of reformist group,

I stand corrected. In retrospect, I should have known better; your posts show a seriousness about religious issues that reformists almost always lack. I have noted Mr. Insaf has been frequenting the forum as of late, perhaps he will be so kind as to answer the questions I previously addressed to you.

Nevertheless, I still feel you have sidestepped the main questions I am asking you. What is it specifically that you are trying to achieve? Let's say that 1% of the arrows that you shoot hit their intended target. Then what? After people become enlightened, what is it that you actually want them to DO??

Imagine the following conversation...

Doctor: Well, after an exhaustive array of blood work and X-rays, I have been able to diagnose why you have been feeling ill. I have been able to determine that you have cancer.

Patient: Oh no! That is terrible! So what sort of treatment options do I have?

Doctor: Treatment?? I do not really concern myself with actually treating my patients. I just diagnose patients strictly as an academic exercise!


When I visit this forum, this is the exact vibe I get. Well, either this or the following...

Doctor: Well, after an exhaustive array of blood work and X-rays, I have been able to diagnose why you have been feeling ill. I have been able to determine that you have cancer.

Patient: Oh no! That is terrible! So what sort of treatment options do I have?

Doctor: We can start you on vitamins and fruit juice.

Patient: Will that cure me?

Doctor: Well, we have been trying this therapy for 40 years and it has shown absolutely no ability to cure or even slow down the disease. But hey, maybe we just haven't tried long enough!


You must also remember that we are fighting a monster which has all the money and muscle power and so there cannot be any overnight change.

Here I must respectfully disagree. I believe this is something reformists tell themselves to justify the complete failure of the movement to achieve any of it's stated goals. Reformists are endlessly going on and on about accountability for the Kothar; when will reformists themselves be held accountable for 40 years without a single noteworthy achievement? 40 years! The whole Prophetic mission lasted only 23! And let's not ignore the many favorable aspects of the reformist's position. Their stated enemy the Kothar are brazenly, almost comically corrupt. And Bohras, the majority of whom are intelligent and perceptive people, know this, leading to widespread frustration and anger. And despite all of this, the reformist movement has gone nowhere, proving itself unable to tap into this widespread discontent to advance it's agenda. But it is much easier for a doctor to tell his patient that the disease is spreading unchecked because it is so virulent than it is to admit he never devised an effective treatment regimen.

It is extremely difficult for people to suddenly cut off all their ties with relatives and friends hence they seldom come out in the open.

This is the crux of the matter. It is not the supernatural brainwashing abilities of the all-powerful Kothar that keep the people in line, it is ethnic/cultural considerations that tie Bohras to their community. That is why I believe all this "raising awareness" stuff is ultimately a waste of time and a diversion from the real issue, which is figuring out how to fulfill the ethnic/cultural needs of Bohras outside the Kothar structure.

P.S.

As for your most recent response, I believe there has been a misunderstanding. I was not claiming that reformists have no right to criticize the Kothar. Of course they have that right. I was specifically responding to humanbeing's last post, where he wrote:

If you feel bohra community is totally down the drain, you are free to move on … what reformist and other free thinkers wants to do with their bohra connection be it faith or convenience is none of anyone’s business.

My point was just that he can't have it both ways. He can't claim the right to criticize the faithful Bohras but then tell me to mind my own business when I criticize the reformists!

kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#50

Unread post by kansas » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:34 pm

yusuftopiwala just left a fantastic post on this thread, it should be placed on the homepage of this website and every reformist should be forced to read it 1000 times. I don't recall ever reading such a respectful, short, yet comprehensive refutation of the entire reformist enterprise. In particular, one phrase he wrote, if properly comprehended, should end all debate on this matter until the end of time...

I cannot say that I believe in your Lineage, but I do not believe in your administration.

This may be the most concisely profound thing ever written on this website. I wish I thought of it myself, it makes everything I have written so far redundant and obsolete!!

Reformists claiming they accept the religious authority of the Syedna but reject the institution he leads is like someone accepting the prophecy of Muhammad (saws) but rejecting the Quran. It is long overdue that reformists face up to the fact that the very foundation of their movement is based on an absurd contradiction.

Ummul Bani
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:09 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#51

Unread post by Ummul Bani » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:18 pm

I would like to present my point of view here.

I have observed that some people think that being a part of a caste or a system and yet opposing it is a hypocrisy. It is not so, in my opinion.
While it is commendable to show resistance and stand up against something after you are out of it, it is more difficult and therefore more commendable to stay within and yet resist it. It is difficult because your entire family follows something but you do not. You have to explain to them the facts each time.You choose not to be part of any unislamic practices and money making schemes while the rest of them do. Such category are definitely not spineless in my opinion. In fact, it takes a lot of courage to remain that way amongst your own people and yet stand up for the right cause.Adding to that, it is always an insider who holds more information and potential for damaging a system for good than anybody else does.
Another plus is that such an insider has the chance and ability to educate others around him.

One may argue that if someone is anyways doing all of this by staying within he may as well leave it and form a new sect. Probably the only reason I can think of , for not doing so, is-familial ties. But this won't be the case after a few years considering the number of people getting awakened each day.

Somebody in a post above has compared Jews to hypocrite bohras. Wrong comparison.
The Jews have altogether disregarded Allah's message and His messenger. Now whether they are atheist Jews or not does not matter. They are already following something false. On the other hand, some bohras are questioning the corrupt and unislamic practices. They have not turned atheist. Being an atheist is disregarding the concept of Allah. These bohras are in fact not ready to bow down to anyone except Allah. Not following Allah cannot be compared to not following the Dai. Its a big difference.

One may ask, what unislamic practices? The answer is right here on this thread -
Somebody above has questioned that how can Namaz be accepted if one does not follow a Dai?
These are the unislamic practices we are talking about. One needs to understand that bohra sect is within Islam and not the other way around.

Secondly, I don't agree when someone says "it is useless to speak up" or "nothing will happen" or "nothing can be reformed". Based on these excuses, should one continue to follow something despite knowing that it has some serious flaws? No.Your conscience must not allow that. You need to resist it. You can do that either by remaining a part of it or by moving out. Everything counts as long as you are not defending the wrong.

Let me give an illustration.
When the British ruled India, there were Indians who allowed it and there were others who showed resistance openly and got punished.And then there were those ( no hypocrites) who resisted from within.
It took 150 years to drive the Brits out from our country. Our country.150 years! If, at that time people would have got disappointed and lost hope, by saying something like, " oh, we can't fight them, they are much more stronger" , we would not be enjoying the freedom we have today. Not only that, but also that the reign would have lasted till today. Another thing to be noted is, the people remained hopeful and did not leave the country despite all the harassment. And it is correct. Why should they leave their own land due to somebody else's mistake and abuse of power?
Also, why it took that long to get freedom?
Did the very people who brought about a change and freedom for us lack spine? Were they useless, weak people who took that long? We know the answer.

All I wish to convey by this example is that bringing a change is not as difficult as it is thought to be and that it is possible.

Any change is always a gradual, slow process. It is so because it takes time for mindsets to change. But when it does, it takes form of a revolt. Any amount of time for that kind of a positive change will be worth it.

So yes, in my opinion, reform is very much possible. It may be slow but it will get there.

Mkenya
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#52

Unread post by Mkenya » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:13 pm

yusuftopiwalla:
I am Ismaili, Dawoodi, Atba-e-Malak Vakil.
Quite a mouthful for me. Please enlighten my ignorance.

alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#53

Unread post by alam » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:24 pm

Mkenya wrote:yusuftopiwalla:
I am Ismaili, Dawoodi, Atba-e-Malak Vakil.
Quite a mouthful for me. Please enlighten my ignorance.
Mkenya refer to thread "no Nass after 46 th dai"
It's another sect among Bohras based in Nagpur from 1891 onwards.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10094&p=141665&hilit=Vakili#p141665

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#54

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:32 am

Kansas is all on high horses declaring PDB movement as failure and useless, a self appointed judge to measure the success of the movement, hypocritically abusing and praising PDB movements. His thoughts and arguments are so twisted, at one point he deems bohraism as doomed and other point wants to challenge people on their questions on ayyashi of bohra priesthood. Finding the following line pristine and profound !!
I cannot say that I believe in your Lineage, but I do not believe in your administration.
Bohra Dai ship is not about lineage but a righteous leader appointed by Imam, it is not a mandate that Dais have to be from same family or father-son chain, unlike Imamship. There is a distinct line and division between lineage and administration. Kansas has again ignored the PDB agenda ! where it speaks of Accountability and transparency, which has no influence of faith and “walayat” . asking for accounts does not have any religious implications. Very cleverly kothar has mixed these principles and made accountability a matter of doubt in the faith.

You are dangerously playing around with words to mislead people with PDB’s agenda for reform.
kansas wrote: Reformists claiming they accept the religious authority of the Syedna but reject the institution he leads is like someone accepting the prophecy of Muhammad (saws) but rejecting the Quran. .
Your comparison with prophet Muhammad and quran with Bohra priesthood and their preachings is disgusting. Prophet did not go against his preaching of quran, while current bohra priesthood contradicts itself on most of their preachings. Your comparison is lame and baseless.

Also no one is rejecting the administration and civic structure of bohra administration, but the way it is functioning. Filled with red tapism, corruption, favouritism and blunt exploitation, embezzlement of funds etc.

Its high time you come out open with your real intentions and present your profound, pristine, one time forever successful solution that can put an end to whatever wrongs are happening as you perceive with bohra community’s faith. A solution that PDB has “failed” to achieve since 40 years !

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#55

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:30 am

kansas wrote: My point was just that he can't have it both ways. He can't claim the right to criticize the faithful Bohras but then tell me to mind my own business when I criticize the reformists!

I do not criticize the faithful bohras, I criticize the oppressive, deceptively authoritarian self contradictory practices of kothar priest and their management of bohra affairs. Along with those, I criticize the corrupted abdes who encourage these Kothari leaders to extort their whims and fancies out of other faithful bohras.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#56

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:41 am

kansas wrote:This is the crux of the matter. It is not the supernatural brainwashing abilities of the all-powerful Kothar that keep the people in line, it is ethnic/cultural considerations that tie Bohras to their community. That is why I believe all this "raising awareness" stuff is ultimately a waste of time and a diversion from the real issue, which is figuring out how to fulfill the ethnic/cultural needs of Bohras outside the Kothar structure.!
In my opinion, the supernatural brainwashing addiction and cultural ties both play a significant role in keeping people tied to bohra faith and submit to all powerful kothar. Raising awareness cannot be a waste of time, as it helps many to seek answers to their conscientious questions in their hearts. I would partially agree with Kansas, but to the limit that we cannot reject any of the points. Bohras remain bohra for many reasons. Supernatural brain-washing or cultural identity or emotional affiliation.

A question to Kansas, what part of raising awareness you reject ?

There are thousands of bohras who do no submit to Kothari priesthood and still maintain a bohra life style; with respect to language, attire, cuisine, etiquettes etc. Again there is a diversity of followers here, the extent of submission to Kothari priesthood is subjective to one’s own values system.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#57

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:37 am

kansas wrote:yusuftopiwala just left a fantastic post on this thread, it should be placed on the homepage of this website and every reformist should be forced to read it 1000 times. I don't recall ever reading such a respectful, short, yet comprehensive refutation of the entire reformist enterprise. In particular, one phrase he wrote, if properly comprehended, should end all debate on this matter until the end of time...

I cannot say that I believe in your Lineage, but I do not believe in your administration.

This may be the most concisely profound thing ever written on this website. I wish I thought of it myself, it makes everything I have written so far redundant and obsolete!!
In my view this is the most stupid and spineless and un-Islamic statement. The way kansas is going ga ga over it shows that he knows little about Bohra doctrine and still less about crafty nature of the Bohra clergy.
Submission is only obligatory to Allah. The Bohra clergy and that of this topiwala's sect have distorted the concept of "Valayat" and are fooling their followers by demanding total submission to their person and their authority. Valayat is confined to the Ahl al Bayt and their progeny, it does not devolved down to the Dai. Valayat is love and cannot be interpreted as total submission. Even Ahl al Bayt never demanded this kind of submission. If the Dai claims valayat and total submission then he is being deceptive. The Bohra clergy has made this distorted notion of valayat as an article of faith and is ramming down every Bohra throat to establish their illicit legitimacy. The funny thing is that people like kansas and topiwala accept these claims as valid and then turn around and say since the Dai is infallible and submission to him is imperative you cannot fight against his administration and his corrupt setup. That is, if you love your Dai then love his dog too. They accept the lies as truth and then prevent others from speaking the truth. It's like accepting Obama's claim the he's divinely appointed, and then saying that questioning him and criticising his administration would be undemocratic. It cannot be done, it is not possible. If you don't like him, form you own country. One could go on but you get the drift. The best thing would be to ignore the likes of kansas, they won't do anything and won't allow others to do anything either. There is a name for people like that.

kansas
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#58

Unread post by kansas » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:10 pm

Ozdundee:

You wrote:

May be you would have done more credit to your impeccable writing skills by concluding what you propose people to do when they see the level of bad practises you described ? Should they turn a blind eye ?

First of all, thank you for the compliment on my writing! As for turning a blind eye, that is not what I am saying at all. Of course people should denounce "bad practices" when they see them. In fact, that is the first thing people should do; perhaps the wrong-doers will heed the advice and correct their behavior.

But reformists have denounced the Kothar. They have done it again and again. And again and again. And again and again and again and again. At some point (which was reached long ago), it becomes redundant. Furthermore, it is unnecessary, as most Bohras already know these things and the die-hard fanatics who do not are unlikely to be swayed by logical arguments. And even worse, all this endless denouncing starts to delude people that they are actually working to fix the problem. As I said, the majority of Bohras already know the Kothar is corrupt! They have known this for decades! Has this knowledge led to any change? If anything, things are apparently getting worse! The belief that increased awareness will lead to reform is a naive delusion, a self-serving fantasy for people who want to believe they are heroically changing things from within to avoid the painful truth that they are too scared to leave. "The majority of Bohras are brainwashed and brain-dead. And change is an exceedingly slow process. But as long as I denounce the Kothar amongst my family or at night on anonymous online forums, I am doing my part to bring about the bright corruption-free future that will inevitably happen some day far in the future."

Later you have left a cliff hanger what you expect reformists to do instead, since according to your definition they are not "eligible or authorised " to comment on orthodox issues ??

First I would like to correct your claim that I said reformists are not eligible or authorised to comment on orthodox issues. I never said such a thing. What I did say is that reformists should be honest with themselves and admit that by criticizing the Syedna, they are no longer Dawoodi Bohras in the religious sense. This is a crucial point, as accepting it would force the reformists to figure out what sort of alternative Bohra identity they want to create.

But you (along with a few others) are specifically asking me what I think should happen next. As humanbeing wrote...

Its high time you come out open with your real intentions and present your profound, pristine, one time forever successful solution that can put an end to whatever wrongs are happening as you perceive with bohra community’s faith. A solution that PDB has “failed” to achieve since 40 years !?

I have deliberately been vague on offering my attempted solutions for the problems in the Bohra community for several reasons. The first reason is that I believe constructing an argument is like constructing a house. You first have to lay the foundation before you can put up the walls and the roof. In fact, a strong foundation is the most important aspect of any structure. Or to give another analogy, you can not worry about how to treat a patient until you accurately diagnose the disease. Also, I did not want to introduce too many of my opinions at once and have the discussion veer off on a bunch of tangents.

Anyway, the foundation of my argument is that the crux of the Dawoodi Bohra faith (a hidden infallible Imam who inspires the Dai Mutlaq, thereby guaranteeing righteous leadership) is completely and irredeemably false. Furthermore, the authoritarian nature of the Dawoodi Bohra (and Ismailism in general) faith is an intrinsic aspect of it's character. Attempts by members of the flock to introduce democratic principles such as transparency or control of the jamats at the local level by elected community members are akin to trying to attach giraffe legs onto an elephant and then expecting the thing to walk around. I also believe the past 40 years have proven the futility of trying to reform the unreformable.

So I have focused on this one foundational issue, in an attempt to make it as clear as I possibly can.

There is another reason I have not been so forthcoming with my attempted solutions. I am 100% sure that the Dawoodi Bohra faith can not be reformed. But I am not at all sure whether a Bohra community can exist outside the Kothar structure.

The Dawoodi Bohra community as currently constructed is a cult. I do not mean this as an insult, just as an accurate description. I found this definition of a cult on the internet...

Several years ago, the founder of IHOP, Mike Bickle, created a list of seven ways to recognize the difference between a religious community and a cult. Written down, the signs seem clear:

1. Opposing critical thinking

2. Isolating members and penalizing them for leaving

3. Emphasizing special doctrines outside scripture

4. Seeking inappropriate loyalty to their leaders

5. Dishonoring the family unit

6. Crossing Biblical boundaries of behavior

7. Separation from the Church


Substitute Quranic for Biblical and umma for Church and this fits the Dawoodi Bohra community exactly.

Cults obviously have their profoundly negative aspects. But yet they are prevalent throughout the world, and have been so throughout human history. There is a reason for this. Cults also expertly fulfill needs that are deeply seated in human nature. The need to be part of a community that truly cares for you. The need for a purpose in life beyond one's daily sustenance. The need for protection in a confusing and lonely world. And when you add in the belief that only the cult members are God's chosen people, the strength of the bonds between community members are exponentially intensified.

Ideally, it would be nice if Bohras who reject the Kothar could create a new Bohra identity based on a belief in Islam and a shared ethnic and cultural background. And this is indeed what I believe reformists should try to do. But what if the religious part of the Bohra identity can not be so easily removed from the other aspects of Bohra identity? What if the close bonds that make it so hard for Bohras to leave their community (no matter how badly they are abused within it) can not survive the loss of the cult in which these bonds were fostered in the first place? What if the only choices are to remain in the cult or to go one's own way? That would be sad, but maybe that is just the way the world is.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#59

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:57 am

brother kansas,

i had so far not pitched into this debate, mainly because i do not have the time, secondly i and many others many like me who have been on this forum long enough have travelled down this road dozens of times before with queries raised very similar to yours, and thirdly, because i realised that i had only 2 choices with this 'cult', either remain within and engage in 'feeble' rebellion, feeble because one can only negotiate to a minor extent one's taxes and fees which keep increasing every year and also negotiate one's way through all the labyrinthine systems put up by the kothari crooks to control an abde's life and maintain their vice like grip on the community and extract maximum amount of money from it, things like raza for every little conceivable thing, submissions, sajdas, hand and thigh kissing, salaams, najwas and all that b.s; or leave the jamaat (not community) and become a non-jamaati bohra.

i chose the latter. as rightly pointed out by you and many others, the kothar has been very adroit at linking bohra culture and way of life with religion, in effect preventing you from disassociating one from the other. so if you have to remain a bohra and celebrate all the urus' of past dai-duat, or observe ramzan, moharram, lailatul qadr, pehli raat no thaal, etc, forcing the p.o.v. down your throat that without membership of the jamaat and therefore unquestioned obedience to the cult leader, you are no longer a bohra and your observances of bohra customs and culture is futile and useless. i give 2 hoots for their diktats and will remain a bohra and have an inalienable right to do as i want within my home and with my bohra friends. there are many like me, who in their own psyche', have successfully separated the religious aspect from the socio-cultural. this also allows me and many others like me to come here and go out openly in society and do our mite for reform.

it is very easy to play into the dastardly lies and fraudulent skullduggery spread by the last 3 dai's, that they are beyond reproach because they have divine linkage with allah through the hidden imam, prophet etc. this has been pointed out quite succinctly by humsafar and bhai insaf several times on this forum. the dai was and still is a mere functionary, traditionally the lowest in the hierarchy of the dawat administration. his job was clearly defined and limited to activities of 'dawah' and nothing more. this they have comveniently thrown aside and cast onto the garbage heap of many of their religious duties and instead turned their positions into one of usury and absolute domination, living the life of kings and emperors.

you have very easily accepted that democractic functioning of jamaats and transparency of their accounts is impossible, when only some 7 decades ago that was the norm. you also accuse the reformists of not having been able to diagnose the 'disease'. they have diagnosed the ills which plague our leadership long ago, it is the community which refuses to acknowledge it. it is also completely erroneous on your part to assume in such a sweeping manner that criticising the syedna and his adminstration is akin to losing their dawoodi bohra status in the religious sense. these statements betray your lack of knowledge of our history. if the dai was supposed to be 'masum' and above reproach, then syedna hatim would not have clearly defined the stringent parameters for someone to be qualified as a dai.

the reformists have never declared that they are out to forge 'what sort of alternative Bohra identity they want to create'. you are now putting words into their mouth. you cannot have an 'alternative bohra' identity or sect. you are then no longer a bohra. in the same way that obama can be criticised without ceasing to be an american, it is possible to be a 'religious' bohra and criticise the syedna, his nefarious family and his corrupt administration. no one, not even the syedna can claim that you become a non-bohra or mushriq and munafekeen for exposing his misdeeds and tyranny. he does not have that right, neither by religious sanction nor as a leader of the community.

you are not the first one, and neither the last, who wants the reformists to provide an alternative socio-cultural platform for bohras so that they congregate in peace and continue with their religious practices and cultural activities. without any exaggeration, i have been approached by several groups to organise the same. i advised them that the reformists are already doing so. they have jamaats in many centres around the world, where they meet in peace and quiet and pursue what all bohras do, but without fear of extortion, intimidation and humiliation. why are these groups trying to re-invent the wheel? if there is no such progressive jamaat where you live, then go seek like minded bohras and set up one yourself. if you need help in how to go about it, the central board of PDB will guide you in every way. the cardinal principle is HELP YOURSELF! most meek and timid bohras desperately seem to be waiting for a knight in shining armour to come riding on a pure white steed and save their backsides. if one does indeed manage to appear, the cowardly bohras will soon melt away when put to the test, just as the cowardly and treacherous kufans did to hussain. 'tu ja aagey, main aata hu'. 'chad ja bete suli pe' attitude.

initially i too was sceptical of the reformists and many an argument have i had with the likes of humsafar et al. but over a period of time i have personally seen atleast a dozen cases of hitherto fanatic abdes converting to progressive thought and some have even gone to the extreme of adopting sunni or ishnashari madhab. they all resisted tooth and nail and persisted in defending their perverted ideology, but slowly and gradually their continued exposure to radical thoughts on this forum wore away the poison instilled in their minds by the crooks who lord it over them. i personally know most of these people, some from this forum and others around the world whom i have actually met. i get an occasional pm from forum members who recount how they have been inspired by this forum to wake up and think, to start questioning and read, study our past history and talk to others.

every such awakening is a major victory. when will reform come? will it ever come? yes, it will happen. that is a resounding affirmation from my side. revolutions usually gather steam at a snail's pace. sometimes the flame flickers and almost goes out, but every setback strengthens the movement, every sacrifice, both spiritual and physical, adds to the momentum. finally at some point it bursts into a populist rebellion. once the masses wake up from their slumber, no force of money, power or influence will stop it. india got independence after 300 years of struggle, the french revolution after several hundred years of oppression and seething resentment.

all the symptoms you describe of a cult, have been discussed and mentioned here ad nauseum. so do your views too now become redundant? obviously not. if certain people like myself decide to leave this cult, so be it. one less source of income for mufatlal. and the more people show defiance by drastically reducing their money contributions, or by leaving, the more the kothari rascals will fall in line.

to come back to your question, 'is reform truly possible'? yes it is. we have all seen the stirrings of a rebellion, here and now, live and in action, gathering steam. the present scenario of the 2 contenders duking it out is a godsend to the reform minded. i have never seen so much disgust, resentment and latent anger within the community in the last 5-6 decades as i am seeing now. but once again, the time to act and the means to act is in the hands of the masses. by a curious and ironic twist of logic and fate, the frustrated and disgruntled bohras fed up with the corrupt clergy somehow lay the blame for a lack of progress or a lack of leadership on the reformists, little realising that the leadership, and most importantly, the courage to act has to come from within yourself, i.e. each bohra. if you are so suffocated, so full of anger and outrage at the loot, scandal, misappropriation of your funds, abuse and humiliation, then take the bull by the horns and put up a fight. as martin luther king said, no one will give you your rights, no one will come to save you, if you are a MAN, you take it yourself. by 'you', i dont mean you personally, but every bohra. get up, wake up, fight. if you are determined to remain within, then become a lion and roar, cut their money supply umbilical cord, or if that is not possible and you have given it your best shot, just leave. be the change you want to see in others. do something, dont just sit around on your sorry arse and sheepishly say, SU KARSU!

brother kansas, i welcome your thoughts, no one here wants to vilify you or portray you as another do-gooder who needs 'correction'. your attempts at finding direction are your way ot finding redemption, but now is the time to join the meagre ranks of reformists and help and support the movement instead of finding fault. its the intelligentsia within the community who have to brainstrorm and strike at this critical juncture. it is quite apparent that you are one of them.

qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 1006
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

Re: Is reform truly possible? Part II

#60

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:02 am

bros
history has proved again and again that reform or revolt has to happen from within itself.
no outside party will help u or do reform or revolt on behalf of u.
so we have to stay within the community only and strive for reform or revolt.
now the question---why it is not happening?
again look at the history---wherever it has happend, the oppressed people were so much oppressesed
and harassed that their existence was threatened, livelyhood gone.
in sense it was harshest and extreme form and pushed to the corner that they had no other place to go
or no other option.
here kothar does indeed oppress and harass, but not to that extent that they feel of taking the extreme step
of revolt.
majority of bohras are middle class---upper and lower.
kothar actually is just asking for money other than anything else basically.
so they give and remain in the middle class group only. may be from upper to lower
and continue with their living.
case in point recently was in somewhere in wagad--i dont know exactly the city.
where aamil collected large amount for gilaf of SMB kabar.
and there was some revolt.
kothar quickly placated them by inviting them to mumbai.
kothar is very cunning and shrewed in this aspect.
they will never slaughter golden egg laying hen