Balance replies: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away

[Mubarak]

Muslim First:
Mubark

AS

hHave you heard of Imam
Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah?
quote:
________________________________________
His eccentric character, the inconsistencies and radical shifts in his conduct and policies, the extreme austerity of his personal life, the vindictive and sanguinary ruthlessness of his dealing with the highest officials of his government coupled with an obsession to suppress all signs of corruption and immorality in public life, his attempted annihilation of Christians and call for the systematic destruction of all Christian holy places in the middle east culminating in the destruction of the most holy Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem, his deification by a group of extremist Isma'li missionaries who became the forerunners and founders of the Druze religion, [which] all combine to contrast his reign sharply with that of any of his predecessors and successors and indeed of any Muslim ruler.... The question is to what extent his conduct can be explained as rationally motivated and conditioned by the circumstances rather than as the inscrutable workings of an insane mind.

Mubarak Reply:
In Wikipedia, as a registered member you can even publish yourself a page on it claiming ‘Muslim First’ as the only God on Earth!!! But thus that make you God??? It is a commercial website whose employees are paid salary for its maintenance. Thus the comments on such sites cannot be accepted as genuine. Can they?

Fatimi Imams following ‘Vasi’ of Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) i.e. Mola Ali (a.s.); Mola Ali (a.s.) following Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) following Allah’s orders. Thus all what Dawoodi Bohras does is right and rest who decoyed Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) succession are otherwise. To prove the righteousness between Dawoodi Bohras and others, following is a simple and omnipotent comparison:

When Dawoodi Bohras enters from ‘Ruku’ to ‘Sujood’ they first keep their hand on ground and then their knees = exactly like all ‘Halal’ cattle like Goat, Camel, Cow, etc

When non-Dawoodi Bohras enters from ‘Ruku’ to ‘Sujood’ they first keep their knees on ground and then their palm = exactly like all ‘Haram’ animals like Pig, Dog, Elephant, etc

[anajmi]

Maybe it is time to have Halal Zabiha Dawoodi Bohra Gosh with matam pur josh!!

[Mubarak]

omabharti
Very active
Member # 608 posted August 10, 2008 07:25 PM
________________________________________
"Your Umar has killed Molana Mohsin during the pregnancy of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) when he hit the door of Ali (a.s.) house and that ultimately martyred Molatina Fatima (a.s.)"

For my personal information, I need to hear from some respected members like Br.Porus or Br. Hussain KSA or Br. Insaf or any one with the knowledge
HOW DID ANYONE KNEW THAT FATEM UT ZOHRA RA WAS CARRYING A MALE INSIDE HER WOMB, SECONDLY YOU DO NOT NAME AN UNBORN CHILD TILL AFTER THE BIRTH SO HOW ANYONE KNEW THAT THE NAME WAS MOHSIN
Like I said please respectable answers for the knowledge, NO CHANGING THE TOPIC AND MAKING IT SHIA/SUNNI ISSUE or any irrelevant discussion

Mubarak Reply:
Reference: Year 2005, Morning Moharram Vaaz, Vajihpura Mosque, Boharwadi, Udaipur, Rajasthan, India (CD’s of Year 2005 and 2006 can be ordered from Mr. Aquib Palana Wala, current ‘pesh Imam’ of Rasoolpura mosque, Boharwadi, Udaipur, Rajasthan – this may be addressed to Mr. Luqman Ali Raj, for address please refer my previous post)

Mola Ali (a.s.) and his companions were passing a jungle thronged very-very heavily with ants and similar insects. A companion asked: Who can tell their total number? Mola Ali (a.s.) said: Me, I can not only tell how much they are in number but also can tell how many among them are males and females.

From another source: A rurally residing person asked: What is the distance between Moon and Earth? Mola Ali (a.s.) as per his aptitude replied: If a healthy and young Arabic breed horse run continuously for so many years, months, weeks, days and hours (I forgot those numbers) then how far will it travel will equal the distance between both.

This was 1400 years back, when we in present take average speed of Arabic breed horse and multiply with the period mentioned by Mola Ali (a.s.) then that is equal to present scientific understanding of distance between Moon and Earth.

Dear respected brother Omabharti, If Mola Ali (a.s.) can tell the total presence of ants/insects in that jungle, then can’t he tell what gender does his wife Molatina Fatima (a.s.) bears in her womb? Let me share a personal experience of mine, me an ordinary and common men, when my wife was pregnant I gave name to it – should it be male I will name him so and so and should that be female then I will name her so and so. And I am not unique, should you do survey then you will find many people with similar experience. If I and others can name their unborn babies then why Mola Ali (a.s.) cannot name his unborn babies?

[SBM]

Br, Mubarak
With all due respect, I agree with you about names you are right,we name unborn children but as far as Hazarat Ali RA knew the exact number of ants and animals, these are hearsay and it is same as any Molvi whether Sunni or Shia comes up with numbers, Only in Bohra waaz, we hear Shimar ye Baar Ragrra and Shimr ye Lokhand na chappal and so on and so forth.Who was there to see how many times Shimar did and how he looked like and what was he wearing. These kinds of descriptions are not recited in any other Shia waaz.
Among Sunnis, the Molvis always exaggerate the miracles of the PIRS and their Dargahs.
So it is our belief Remember long time ago Bohras were able to see Syedna Taher Saiffudin's face on the Moon while other found nothing. similar stories are spread about Jesus and Mary in USA.

[SBM]

Why is this discussion going on under Sk Rajab Ali..
passed away. Like Areef said in previous thread let him rest in peace and not invoke his name for this thread
Can these type of discussion be used under Islam Folder rather on this folder....
Administrator please check if the heading of the thread has any thing to do with the discussion
Again and again either Non Dawoodi Bohras and Kothari Goons always hijack the main topic and turn into their personal score setting.

[Gulf]

Originally posted by omabharti:
we hear Shimar ye Baar Ragrra and Shimr

It's not Baar Ragraa, but it should be Baar Baar raggraa.. this is a sin in islam, even you are not allowed to do baar baar ragraa (saw) while perform zabihat of halaal animal, we instructed to use sharpen knife to perform zabihat of halaal animal.

Originally posted by omabharti:
we hear Shimar ye Baar Ragrra and Shimr ye Lokhand na chappal and so on and so forth.Who was there to see how many times Shimar did and how he looked like and what was he wearing.

Ans: Sayyeda Zainab (AS)
and it is well known

[Gulf]

Originally posted by omabharti:
Why is this discussion going on under Sk Rajab Ali..
passed away. Like Areef said in previous thread let him rest in peace and not invoke his name for this thread
Can these type of discussion be used under Islam Folder rather on this folder....
Administrator please check if the heading of the thread has any thing to do with the discussion
Again and again either Non Dawoodi Bohras and Kothari Goons always hijack the main topic and turn into their personal score setting.

See your hypocracy has been exposed.. he was not your Aareff but it was ME to advise to admin

look at this...

Gulf
Very active
Member # 4065
posted August 12, 2008 10:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ha ha ha.. why admin dont close this thread so Mr. raj soul can rest in great peace or what ever...

admin sould understand one thing that the progressives exist on this site are hypocrate they will repeatedly drag this thread out and out and will not let the thread die in natural way

RIP

got it!!

[feelgud]

Originally posted by Mubarak:
..To prove the righteousness between Dawoodi Bohras and others, following is a simple and omnipotent comparison:

When Dawoodi Bohras enters from ‘Ruku’ to ‘Sujood’ they first keep their hand on ground and then their knees = exactly like all ‘Halal’ cattle like Goat, Camel, Cow, etc

When non-Dawoodi Bohras enters from ‘Ruku’ to ‘Sujood’ they first keep their knees on ground and then their palm = exactly like all ‘Haram’ animals like Pig, Dog, Elephant, etc[/QB]

Mubarak,
not only Bohras but salafis do pray in the same way and strongly recommend to put hands first.

8- The Sujood (Prostration) & Juloos (Sitting):
(i) Reach the ground with the hand's first and then the knees while saying ALLAAHU AKBAR (Allaah is the Greater), and rest on your palm's and place your forehead, nose, knees, and feet on the floor with your belly away from your thighs. Toes should be erected and directed to the Qiblah. Your arms should be away from the ground, as bellow, saying:

"سُبحَانَ رَبِِّيَ الأعْلَى" (3 مرات)
Subhaana Rabiyyal-'Alaa (3 times)

http://understand-islam.net/salat/05.html

I dont mind if you consider them also to be righteous.

[Muslim First]

Syedna Taher Saiffudin's face on the Moon while other found nothing. similar stories are spread about Jesus and Mary in USA.

Recently a Ismaili saw MHI's face on Moon

[SBM]

Gulf
I was responding to the following post from Aareef

Aareef
Active
Member # 14449

posted September 09, 2008 04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raz has passed away long time back. However, we keep reusing this thread for various other debates. My sincere request to all is to stop using or over using this thread... Let the poor man's souls rest in peace. I think the ADMIN should close this topic...

[Mubarak]

Originally posted by omabharti:
Br, Mubarak
With all due respect, I agree with you about names you are right,we name unborn children but as far as Hazarat Ali RA knew the exact number of ants and animals, these are hearsay and it is same as any Molvi whether Sunni or Shia comes up with numbers, Only in Bohra waaz, we hear Shimar ye Baar Ragrra and Shimr ye Lokhand na chappal and so on and so forth.Who was there to see how many times Shimar did and how he looked like and what was he wearing. These kinds of descriptions are not recited in any other Shia waaz.
Among Sunnis, the Molvis always exaggerate the miracles of the PIRS and their Dargahs.
So it is our belief Remember long time ago Bohras were able to see Syedna Taher Saiffudin's face on the Moon while other found nothing. similar stories are spread about Jesus and Mary in USA.

Dear Brother Omabharti,

Omabharti: …as far as Hazarat Ali RA knew the exact number of ants and animals, these are hearsay

Mubarak: Do you have any proof to prove that that story is hearsay and not real?

Omabharti: Only in Bohra waaz, we hear Shimar ye Baar Ragrra and Shimr ye Lokhand na chappal and so on and so forth.

Mubarak: Because Bohras are associated with the right inheritor of the unbroken chains of Fatimi Imams. A house owner knows where the things are in his house. If you ask in dark to find something he will but a thief even in full light need to search.

As per the faith of Dawoodi Bohras, Imams are masoom i.e. do not lie. Imam Ali Zain ul Abedeen (a.s.) is inheritor of Molana Imam Hussain (a.s.) thus he knew precisely what happened so as Molatina Zainab (a.s.) and they told to people including their inheritor Molana Imam Bakir (a.s.) who too was present during the episode of Karbala, Imam Bakir (a.s.) told to Imam Sadik (a.s.), Imam Sadik (a.s.) to Imam Ismail (a.s.), to Imam Molana Mohammed bin Ismail (a.s.)….to Imam Tayyeb (a.s.) to Dai-ul-mutlaq to Mummen and Mumeenat.

As Bohras are followers of rightly inherited unbroken chain of Imam so they are people of HOUSE. Thus they only know the real precise things and others do not. Hence, you will find these type of speech contents only in Bohras waaz and not in any body else.

There are 72+ sects in Islam, and only one has to be by default right. Except us if all are not presenting these points and we does then it establishes uniqueness and hints that Dawoodi Bohras is that right sect and rest are not.

Omabharti: Who was there to see how many times Shimar did and how he looked like and what was he wearing.

Mubarak:
People from house:
1. Molana Imam Ali Zain ul Abedeen (a.s.)
2. Molana Imam Bakir (a.s.)
3. Molatina Zainab (a.s.)
4. Molatina Shahar Banu (a.s.)
5. etc

Independent witness:
1. Jasos
2. Hameed

Omabharti: These kinds of descriptions are not recited in any other Shia waaz
Mubarak: Please refer 4th till 7th paragraph of this post

Omabharti: Among Sunnis, the Molvis always exaggerate the miracles of the PIRS and their Dargahs
Mubarak: You are 100% right

Omabharti: …is our belief Remember long time ago Bohras were able to see Syedna Taher Saiffudin's face on the Moon while other found nothing. similar stories are spread about Jesus and Mary in USA

Mubarak: Blind faith is doomed to fail. Mukhtar was ‘heelebaaz’. He used to keep some grains on his ears and a trained pigeon come to sit on his shoulder and then eat those grains. On it Mukhtar con common men that it is Angel Zibraeel coming in form of pigeon to convey Allah’s message!!! By the same token Molana Tahir Saiffuddin was ‘heelebaaz’ he fooled our ‘bhola bhala’ mumeen brother and sisters!!! Thus do not be blind in faith but things that are present in the authentic books or said by authentic men needs to be saluted and accepted at face value. Should you do not understand then ask question. Asking question is the way to learn but should you do not understand then do not put your rejections because you have not understood.

Thanks and best regards,

Mubarak

[Danish]

Originally posted by Mubarak:

As per the faith of Dawoodi Bohras, Imams are masoom i.e. do not lie.

Yep, they were/are considered gods (alihatun) of their times by their dimwit ignorant followers themselves. To most, even the president of USofA (United States of Amnesia) is considered the God of the Nations.

[SBM]

Quote
Mubarak: Because Bohras are associated with the right inheritor of the unbroken chains of Fatimi Imams. A house owner knows where the things are in his house. If you ask in dark to find something he will but a thief even in full light need to search.

Br. Mubarak
In another thread I asked Br. Insaf about the chain of Fatimi Duaats and he has explained how the chain was broken from Yemeni Fatimid Dai to Indian Dais to a converted Hindu Dai. If that is the case then how can you justify that Bohras have an unbroken Fatimi linkage.
Again if you look at Bohras we have different Dais in our own Sect whether it is Alavi or Dawoodi or other so who is to say who has the right progeny
Thanks for your explanation

[SBM]

Quote
"As per the faith of Dawoodi Bohras, Imams are masoom"

Br. Mubarak
I do not consier myself a scholar but this argument is also forwarded by Jafferia According to their defination of Masoom is one who does not make mistake but when I asked one of the Maulana how can Imam be considered Masoom when Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) made mistake and that is why surah Abbasa (Surah 80) was sent. If Prophet can be warned by Allah how we can give higher respect to Imams?
Hopefully you can fill in some gaps.
Thank you

[Danish]

Originally posted by omabharti:
Quote
"As per the faith of Dawoodi Bohras, Imams are masoom"

Br. Mubarak
I do not consier myself a scholar but this argument is also forwarded by Jafferia According to their defination of Masoom is one who does not make mistake but when I asked one of the Maulana how can Imam be considered Masoom when Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) made mistake and that is why surah Abbasa (Surah 80) was sent. If Prophet can be warned by Allah how we can give higher respect to Imams?
Hopefully you can fill in some gaps.
Thank you

Muslims think that "Muhammad" was infallible and sinless and hence his ahlul bayt were as such. Anyone who utters anything said against them is subject to beheading. Allah (The God]is also infallible and sinless. Allah is also an immortal human-like being [an undying man-made entity created by clay/mud ~ an idol whom they worshipped whose name was Hubal (the moon good)]. Abu al Qasim later destroyed HIM but the Arabs continued to worship HIM as witnessed at Kaba even till today.

[Naveed]

It's now called the Cubbal ( The Cube God)

[porus]

Originally posted by omabharti:
....how can Imam be considered Masoom when Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) made mistake and that is why surah Abbasa (Surah 80) was sent....

That is incorrect. Sunni scholars do not accept that Prophet was free from making errors. They want to reduce him to a temporal leader subject human whims, not in control of himself. He is treated by them as an errant channel through whom the Quran was revealed. Yet, if he mad a mistake, how can they be certain that he did not make mistake in transmitting the Quran?

Correct interpretation is that Surat Abasa talks about a Quraish noble who frowned and turned his back against the petitioner when Prophet addressing them. For Allah to ensure that his message was delivered without error, he had to protect the Prophet from ever committing one.

You can read more about this in the Pooya/Ali commentary on 80:1-2 at the following link.

http://www.al-islam.org/quran/

This twelver interpretation is in line with Bohra belief too.

[Mubarak]

Hussain_KSA
Active
Member # 5171 posted August 11, 2008 09:50 AM
________________________________________
Brother Oma,

Nothing has mentioned in any authentic book of history as per my study about name of child of Syeda Fatima bint Mohammed (PBUH). We all are hearing this from our child hood in majalis during Muharram from Aamil and like minded. These people are trained from Jamea where Shaikh Ahmed Ali used to teach. His students including Mr. Mubarak is repeating the same thing. I am totally agreed with your logic.

Even the version of Karbla scenario is a bit contrary to what shia claimed to be the righteous one. For example it is narrated in our Majalis that Abdullah son of Imam Hasan Bin Ali was married to Sakina daughter of Imam Hussain bin Ali (Sakeena was just five year old that time) and the conversion between newly weded coupleat the time of groom leaving for Warfield which is being narrated by Aamil (mello drama) is not trust worthy or logical. While Shia says that Kubra bint Imam Hussain was married to Qasim bin Imam Hasan. In our Majalis we call Shehar Banu mother of Akbar, Asghar while as per history record and Shia preachers Mother of Akbar was Laila and Mother of Asghar was Rabab.

Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) has married his two daughters to Osman Bin Affan (Dul Noorain). Syeda Khadija Bint Khuwailed was mother of these two daughters but no one like to hear it.

Abbas bin Imam Ali (Abbas Alamdar) has other three brother martyred along with him in Karbala. There names were Usman, Abubakar and Omar. Does any body would like to mentioned it in Majalis honestly ? Even they are ashamed to mentioned their names while narrating the sequences of Aashoora on 10th of Muharram. Kindly read the name of 72 martyrs of Karbala. I don't if even we have different martyrs than shias.

I don't want to go in further details as people will again start calling me Wahabi.

Problem with our community is that we are habitual of hearing fancy and fantasy stories. We don't want to research ourselves.

I met one of the Jamea Saifia graduate last year during hajj and he told me proudly that he stood in distinction during the viva or oral examination in presence of Syedna Burhanuddin. I asked in curiosity about the question he answered during the oral examination and I was surprised to know that he was asked to sing " Aqa muala Taher Saifuddin nu Qaseedo ane aane Matlab". What more can we expect from such production of Jamea?
________________________________________
Posts: 301 |

Hussain_KSA: Nothing has mentioned in any authentic book of history as per my study about name of child of Syeda Fatima bint Mohammed (PBUH).

Mubarak: Have you read all authentic history books of Fatimi Dawat?

Hussain_KSA: We all are hearing this from our child hood in majalis during Muharram from Aamil and like minded. These people are trained from Jamea where Shaikh Ahmed Ali used to teach. His students including Mr. Mubarak is repeating the same thing. I am totally agreed with your logic.

Mubarak: Brother Oma’s post have been answered please read the earlier post in this thread.

Hussain_KSA: Even the version of Karbla scenario is a bit contrary to what shia claimed to be the righteous one.

Mubarak: As per the Dawoodi Bohras they are the follower of the unbroken chain of the Imams and Ithnashari’s are not. Thus we are the ‘khara’ Shia’s and Ithnashari are ‘Khota’ Shai. This point I will elaborate in my coming post (Inshallah). Thus as per our faith our version is the benchmark.

Hussain_KSA: For example it is narrated in our Majalis that Abdullah son of Imam Hasan Bin Ali was married to Sakina daughter of Imam Hussain bin Ali (Sakeena was just five year old that time) and the conversion between newly weded coupleat the time of groom leaving for Warfield which is being narrated by Aamil (mello drama) is not trust worthy or logical

Mubarak:
When you are terming the narration as ‘mello drama’ there are two aspects:
One: You may be right. Should you be right then there is no sawab/azab on you.
Second: You may be wrong. Should you be wrong then the charge on you is that you have termed ‘zikr-a-Hussain’ as a ‘mello drama’ and as per Dawoodi Bohras faith you are committing ‘azab’ thus you are liable for punishment. Aren’t you?

Hussain_KSA: …is not trust worthy or logical
Mubarak: Our source or references are: Molana Ali Zain-ul-Abedeen (a.s.), Molana Mohammed Bakir (a.s.), Molatina Zinab (a.s.), Molatina Shahar Banu (a.s.), Raavi: Hameed and Zas’os.
When you are terming it as “not trust worthy or logical”, you have not provided any proof or reference to prove your claim. Have you?

Hussain_KSA: Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) has married his two daughters to Osman Bin Affan (Dul Noorain). Syeda Khadija Bint Khuwailed was mother of these two daughters but no one like to hear it.

Mubarak: When you say, “…no one like to hear it”, you are making a personal opinion. How can you say that that is the official stand of the Fatimi Dawat? You are using words “NO ONE like to hear it”, have you surveyed EACH and EVERY follower of Fatimi Dawat?

Hussain_KSA: Abbas bin Imam Ali (Abbas Alamdar) has other three brother martyred along with him in Karbala. There names were Usman, Abubakar and Omar. Does any body would like to mentioned it in Majalis honestly ? Even they are ashamed to mentioned their names while narrating the sequences of Aashoora on 10th of Muharram. Kindly read the name of 72 martyrs of Karbala. I don't if even we have different martyrs than shias.

Mubarak: Names of any person/place/things are just for its IDENTIFICATION and need not necessarily always convey its inherent characteristics. Where have you read that there is an official reservation in Dawoodi Bohras majlis for not naming the great martyrs of Karbala – Molana Abubakar ibn Ali bin Abu Talib, Molana Omar ibn Ali bin Abu Talib and Molana Usman ibn Ali bin Abu Talib? There aro not only these three but many others great martyrs of Karbala whose named are generally not mentioned due to time constraints. But officially every martyr is praised supremely irrespective of their names. Thus, when you say that “…they are ashamed to mention their names”, you are placing your personal opinion. How can you say that that is the official stand of the Fatimi Dawat?

Hussain_KSA: Kindly read the name of 72 martyrs of Karbala. I don't if even we have different martyrs than shias.

Mubarak: In Udaipur, bhai Fakhruddin Ali R.V. has compiled list of all the 72 martyrs of Karbala from all the authentic books as per Dawoodi Bohras. This list can be procured requesting bhai Lukman Ali Raj, for address please refers my previous posts.

Hussain_KSA: Problem with our community is that we are habitual of hearing fancy and fantasy stories. We don't want to research ourselves.

Mubarak: You might be visiting any place but genuine Fatimi Dawat majlis. Should you be interested in hearing genuine Fatimi Dawat majlis then listen to 2005 and 2006 Moharram Majlis of Al Mukkaddas Sheikh Ahmed Ali sahib you can get it from Lukman bhai Raj.

Hussain_KSA: I met one of the Jamea Saifia graduate last year during hajj and he told me proudly that he stood in distinction during the viva or oral examination in presence of Syedna Burhanuddin. I asked in curiosity about the question he answered during the oral examination and I was surprised to know that he was asked to sing " Aqa muala Taher Saifuddin nu Qaseedo ane aane Matlab". What more can we expect from such production of Jamea?

Mubarak: It is very sad to learn the falling standard of performance measurement scale in the Jamia Saifia which was constructed by Molana Aaka Abd-a-Ali Saiffuddin (r.a.)! What do you think can we practically do in measurable time to improve the situation? Brother Mr. Accountability was suggesting filing a case in UN. How we can assist him?

[Mubarak]

accountability
Very active
Member # 888 posted August 12, 2008 11:20 PM
________________________________________
mubarak saheb: can you authenticate daim ul islam. what is its origin. Please provide a historical proof of imam ismail bin jaffar. please quote some authentic sources, except daim ul islam.

Porous: I was just searching for historical proof of imam ismail bin jaffer, intrestingly i did not find one. there isn't any historical refrence.
________________________________________
Posts: 979 |

Dear Respected Brother Mr. Accountability,

Molana Imam Moiz (a.s.) has authenticated ‘Daim-ul-Islam’. Imam Moiz (a.s.) asked Molana Kazi Noman (r.a.) to write a book which establishes the truth and falsify the men made false ‘hadith’ of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) and false interpretation of Quran. On order of Molana Moiz (a.s.), Molana Kazi Noman wrote a book in which he took all the prevailing ‘hadith’ attributed to Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and then gave arguments and proofs to verify if that particular ‘hadith’ is right or wrong. When the final book was prepared it was so big that it needed to be carried on camel’s back. Imam authenticated the work and asked to make a short version of the same. Then on that order of Imam Moiz (a.s.), Molana Kazi Noman (r.a.) curtailed the text to the present version which was authenticated by Molana Moiz Imam (a.s.).

Historical proof : When I was in Medina, an Irani showed me map of Jannat-ul-baki. As per that map Ithnashari believe that Molana Sayyedna Imam Ismail (a.s.) bin Imam Zafar Sadik (a.s.) bin Imam Bakir (a.s.) is buried in Jannat-ul-baki. And same is the opinion of Fatimi Dawat. When we go to Jannat-ul-baki in the ‘salam’ we send the ‘salam’ to Molana Ismail (a.s.) bin Imam Zafar Sadik (a.s.) and also to Molana Imam Mohammed (a.s.) bin Ismail (a.s.) bin Imam Zafar Sadik (a.s.). All the Fatimi Imam and their literature along with Daim-ul-Islam are filled with references that you wish to learn.

Accountability: Porous: I was just searching for historical proof of imam ismail bin jaffer, intrestingly i did not find one. there isn't any historical refrence.

Mubarak: Have you searched 100% of literature? If you have not found historical proof thus that mean proof doesn’t exist or there are no historical references? If you are at particular place and you have searched for water at your level best efforts but you have not found even a drop of water thus that mean that there is no water in the whole world? Water is not there in that particular place where you are but that doesn’t mean that there is no water is the whole world.

Below mentioned text is copied from link: web page


Brief History of the Life of Syedna Qadi Nauman (R.A.)
________________________________________
His full name is Syedna Al-Qadi An-Nauman Abu Hanifa An-Nauman bin Abi Abdillah Mohammed bin Mansoor bin Hayun At-Tamimi Al-Maghribi. All that is known about his youth is that his father, Abu Abdillah Mohammed, passed away in Rajab-ul-asab 351 h. and Syedna Qadi Nauman himself performed the janaza namaz and buried him in Qairawan.
Many historians write various things. Some say he was Maliki. Some say he was Hanafi, but the truth is that due to the circumstances, he did not openly declare his religion and way of life in the initial stages of his life.
Whenever his revered name is brought upon the tongue, the image of a great being comes to mind, who served four Imams:
• Maulana Mehdi (A.S.)
• Maulana Qaim (A.S.)
• Maulana Mansoor (A.S.)
• Maulana Moiz (A.S.)
He began his Khidmat of these Imams in 297 h. and continued to do so until he passed away in 363 h. During the long duration of 66 years of his Khidmat, his Khidamaat took on countless aspects. Fighting for the Hidayat of Nufus, withstanding bloodshed to organize majalis and bayanaat, working hard to write his books, his very important business of judgement as Chief Justice, the honor of spending day and night in the company and travels of Imams. The Imams themselves molded his being so that he became such an outstanding personality, that he was a Faqih, orator, eloquent, critic, psychologist, historian, poet, writer, and a turbulent ocean of knowledge and art, all in one.
He has 44 books on Fiqh, history, Vaaz, and religious beliefs and Taweel, most of which are present today in the archives of Dawat. Especially Daim-ul-Islam, which Iran has incorporated into their constitution. It has been translated into many, many languages. In it, one can get a complete picture of the ordinances of Islam. He has explained the importance Islam has given to manners and etiquette along with Ibadat, giving references to Imams.
Imams have relied on Daim-ul-Islam'. In 391, Imam Hakim (A.S.) ordered his Dai Harun bin Mohammed in Yemen in a letter that "your decisions" must be made in light of Daim-ul-Islam'.
Syedna Ahmed Hamiduddin Kirmani (R.A.), who has written the famous kitab of Rahat-ul-Aql, writes in it's introduction that before one begins to study this kitab, certain other kutub must be read as a prerequisite, including Daim-ul-Islam.
Syedna Moayyed Shirazee (R.A.) taught Daim-ul-Islam to Abu Kalijar of Shiraz. And the Duat of Satr have relied upon Daim-ul-Islam in matters of Fiqh.
Another important work is the kitab'Al Majaalis wal Musairaat'in which he has entailed in detail words of Imams in Majalis, or just while walking which he had taken note of, and the wisdom encased within them. Such a great kitab is this, that Syedna Taher Saifuddin (R.A.) would always keep it with him, whether at home, or on journeys, and would always look into it.
Imam Moiz (A.S.) verifies that the kitab Al Majaalis wal Musairaat' is such a kitab, that it brings peace to the heart.
Imam Moiz put a seal upon the Ikhlas of Syedna Qadi Nauman, he stated, "If anyone could come up with even one percent of the Ikhlas Nauman has, I will personally guarantee he will go to Jannat!"
One night Syedna Nauman (R.A.) was up writing, when all of a sudden he felt a pain in his stomach. So sharp was the pain that he felt he would die. Everyone else in the house was asleep. Then he remembered that Imam had given him a slice of an apple that day in a majlis, and had told him to take Barakat from it. "I should take it now", he thought. He took Barakat from that slice of apple and immediately his pain subsided. Such was his Ikhlas.
Some of his important kutub include:
1. Kitab-ul-Iydhah, which he has written in 220 sections
2. Mukhtasar-ul-Iydhah, written by the farman of Imam Mehdi (A.S.)
3. Al-Akhbar fil Fiqh, in 13 sections
4. Mukhtasar-ul-Aasaar
5. Daim-ul-Islam, volumes 1 and 2
6. Minhaaj-ul-Fara'iz
7. Al Iqtisaar
8. Al Arjuzatul Muntakhabah
9. Al Ittifaaq wal Iftiraaq, containing 140 sections
10. Al Muqtasar, which is a short version of Al Ittifaq wal Iftiraq'
11. Kitab-ul-Yanbu', whose second half is also present
12. Sherhul Akhbar, separated into 16 sections
13. Qaseeda Zaat-ul-Mahn, regarding Dajjaal' incidents
14. Qaseeda Zaat-ul-Minan, zikr of Imam Moiz's Barakaat
15. Kitabo Manaqib-e-Bani Hashim wa Mathalib-e-Bani Umaiyyah, written during the reign of Imam Moiz
16. Iftitah-ud-Dawat, written about the Zuhur in West Africa in 346 h.
17. Taaweel-ud-Daim, 16 sections
18. Asaas-ut-Taaweel, Taaweel of the lives of Prophets
19. At-Tawheed wal Imaamat, taken from Nahjul-Balaaghah
20. Ithbaat-ul Haqaaiq fi Ma'refat-e Tawheed-il Khaaliq
21. Kitabo Hudud-il Ma'refat fi Tafseeril Quran wat-Tanbeeh-e alat-Taaweel,17 sections
22. Kitab fil Imaamat, 4 sections
23. Ikhtilaaf-o Usul-il Mazaahib, 2 sections, regarding the philosophy of disagreement
24. Nahj-us-Sabeel ila Ma'refat-e Ilm-it-Taaweel, 2 sections
25. Kitabo Ibadat-e Yawmin wa Lail
26. Kitab-ut-Tahaarat, which has 3 sections: Tahaarat, Salaat, and Janaaiz
27. Qaseeda-tul Mukhtaar
28. Kitab-ul Himmah fi Aadaab-e Atba'il Aimmat, in two sections
29. Ar-Risalat-il Misriyyah fir-radd-e alash-Shafiee
30. Kitab-ur-radd-e an Ahmed Sareej Al-Baghdaadee, 2 sections
31. Risaalat Zaatul-Bayaan fir-radde ala ibne Qateebah
32. Damigh-ul Mujiz fir-radde alal Atqaa
33. Kitaab-ud-Dua, in two sections
34. Kitaab-ul Huly was-Siyaab
35. Kitaab-ush-Shurut
36. Kitabo Manaamaatil Aimmat
37. Kitabo Taawil-ir Ru'yah
38. Kitab-ut Tafri-it-Ta'neefe leman lam ya'lamil Ilma wa yataghatat-Ta'neef
39. Kitabo Kaifiyat-is-Salaat-e alan-Nabi
40. Tarbiyatil Momin, a letter to the Dai of Misr
41. Kitab-ut Ta'aqub wal Inqiyaad
42. Kitab-ul Majaalis wal Musairaat wal Mawaaqif wat-Tawqeefaat, 4 sections
43. Ma'alim-ul Huda, a collection of examples, lessons and teachings
44. Mafaateehun-Naemat
45. Kitab-ul Huruf
46. Kitabo Muwazat-it-Taaweel, the last three kitaabs have been mentioned not only in Uyun-ul-Akhbar, but also in outside books

Best regads,

[Hussain_KSA]

Mubrak Bhai,

First of all let me clear one point that, I am not a religious Scholar. I am still a student and would like to remain so.

You asked me that "Have you read all authentic history books of Fatimi Dawat?, please recommend me some except those written by your Muqaddas teacher.

Please check this :

(Hussain_KSA: For example it is narrated in our Majalis that Abdullah son of Imam Hasan Bin Ali was married to Sakina daughter of Imam Hussain bin Ali (Sakeena was just five year old that time) and the conversion between newly weded coupleat the time of groom leaving for Warfield which is being narrated by Aamil (mello drama) is not trust worthy or logical
Mubarak:
When you are terming the narration as ‘mello drama’ there are two aspects:
One: You may be right. Should you be right then there is no sawab/azab on you.
Second: You may be wrong. Should you be wrong then the charge on you is that you have termed ‘zikr-a-Hussain’ as a ‘mello drama’ and as per Dawoodi Bohras faith you are committing ‘azab’ thus you are liable for punishment. Aren’t you?)

Where is your answer to my point.

Hussain_KSA: …is not trust worthy or logical
Mubarak: Our source or references are: Molana Ali Zain-ul-Abedeen (a.s.), Molana Mohammed Bakir (a.s.), Molatina Zinab (a.s.), Molatina Shahar Banu (a.s.), Raavi: Hameed and Zas’os.
When you are terming it as “not trust worthy or logical”, you have not provided any proof or reference to prove your claim. Have you?

Could you kindly recommend any authentic book of fatimi Dawat' about the history of Karbala and narration of events. Who told you about these things? Which authentic book did you read saying of Imam Zain ul Abdeen or Imam Baquir, Zainab or Shehar banu? There is nothing called Authentic history book of Fatemi Dawat. You heard it from your teacher and he might have heard or quoted his predecessors.

(Hussain_KSA: Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) has married his two daughters to Osman Bin Affan (Dul Noorain). Syeda Khadija Bint Khuwailed was mother of these two daughters but no one like to hear it.

Mubarak: When you say, “…no one like to hear it”, you are making a personal opinion. How can you say that that is the official stand of the Fatimi Dawat? You are using words “NO ONE like to hear it”, have you surveyed EACH and EVERY follower of Fatimi Dawat?)

I am talking in General. How many of Dawoodi bohras knows about these things?

Hussain_KSA: Abbas bin Imam Ali (Abbas Alamdar) has other three brother martyred along with him in Karbala. There names were Usman, Abubakar and Omar. Does any body would like to mentioned it in Majalis honestly ? Even they are ashamed to mentioned their names while narrating the sequences of Aashoora on 10th of Muharram. Kindly read the name of 72 martyrs of Karbala. I don't if even we have different martyrs than shias.

Mubarak: Names of any person/place/things are just for its IDENTIFICATION and need not necessarily always convey its inherent characteristics. Where have you read that there is an official reservation in Dawoodi Bohras majlis for not naming the great martyrs of Karbala – Molana Abubakar ibn Ali bin Abu Talib, Molana Omar ibn Ali bin Abu Talib and Molana Usman ibn Ali bin Abu Talib? There aro not only these three but many others great martyrs of Karbala whose named are generally not mentioned due to time constraints. But officially every martyr is praised supremely irrespective of their names. Thus, when you say that “…they are ashamed to mention their names”, you are placing your personal opinion. How can you say that that is the official stand of the Fatimi Dawat?

Why you don't find any Omar, Usman or Abubakar in Bohra? Would you like to give the these names to your children or grand childerns? So don't tell me this is not the official stand of Fatemi Dawat. You have openly and strictly favored " Tabarra" on this board.

Mubarak: You might be visiting any place but genuine Fatimi Dawat majlis. Should you be interested in hearing genuine Fatimi Dawat majlis then listen to 2005 and 2006 Moharram Majlis of Al Mukkaddas Sheikh Ahmed Ali sahib you can get it from Lukman bhai Raj.

How do you assuming that I am visiting others place then Genuine Faimi Dawat Majlis. By the way where is fatimi Dawat Majlis being held now a days? In mainstream there is "Ghano Jivo Ghano Jivo " and miracles of 51 & 52 are being narrated. I had an opportunity to listen to Mukkadds Shaikh Ahmed Ali Sahib couple of times. I did not find much difference to his waiz and waiz of any Amil trained from Jamia Saifia (I am talking about 25 year back as now all jamia trained aamil are narrating only miracles of 51 & 52). In one of his waiz Shaikh Ahmed ali was just insisting on "doing Tasbeeh of Ya Ali" for more than half time of his waiz.

I am sorry to tell you but I think you did not learn any thing except what your revered teacher has taught you. In other post you have criticized Mr. Insaf over his post on mentioning non muslim historian of Ismaili Sect. I would recommend you to just read them once for the sack of Knowledge.

You have also mentioned books of Syedna Quazi Noman. How many of them you have read? And why there is no book on Karbala?

Some Shia has shown you grave of Maulana Ismail in a map . Next time when you visit Madina let me know and I will show you the place of his burial.

I apologies to other readers of this board for consuming their precious time and space of this board as well. I will try to avoid in falling with argument next time.

[babu]

Mubarak : Kitne admi they?
Hussain_KSA : Sardar 2
Mubarak : Mujhe ginti nahin aati, 2 kitne hote hain?
Hussain_KSA : Sardar 2, 1 ke baad aata hai
Mubarak : Aur 2 ke pehle?
Hussain_KSA : 2 k pehle 1 aata hai.
Mubarak : To beech mein kaun ata hai?
Hussain_KSA : Beech mein koi nahi aata>
Mubarak : To phir dono ek saath kyun nahin aate?
Hussain_KSA : 1 k baad hi 2 aa sakta hai, kyun ki 2, 1 se bada hai.
Mubarak : 2, 1 se kitna bada hai?
Hussain_KSA : 2, 1 se 1 bada hai.
Mubarak : Agar 2, 1 se 1 bada hai to 1, 1 se kitna bada hai?
Hussain_KSA : Sardar maine aapka namak khaya hai, mujhe goli maar doo plzzzz

[SBM]

Admin:
Can you please remove the last posting by BABU.
since it has no relation to on going discussion
Once again Taheris/Burhanis come up and try to divert a topic and make fun of everything. Also can you also remove Br. Hussain_KSA's posting which might have been added twice by error.

[Hussain_KSA]

Good Sense of Humor Babu Bhai. Keep it up

[Gulf]

Originally posted by omabharti:
Admin:
Can you please remove the last posting by BABU.
since it has no relation to on going discussion
Once again Taheris/Burhanis come up and try to divert a topic and make fun of everything. Also can you also remove Br. Hussain_KSA's posting which might have been added twice by error.

@madam oma
Lack of sense of humor, keep it continue...

@babu,
Mubarak is not the one who deserve such senseless fun, he is a genius.

[SBM]

Lack of sense of humor, keep it continue...

@babu,
Mubarak is not the one who deserve such senseless fun, he is a genius.

Gulpie
YOu are great you contradict yourself in the same post. In the first line you say it is HUMOR and the second one you say it is SENSELESS FUN

LIKE I SAY YOU PEA SIZE BRAIN IS REALLY NEEDS SOME TUNING WHICH CAN NOT BE DONE BY DOING PURJOSH MAATAM AND GHANOO JIVO GHANOO JIVO

[babu]

Originally posted by omabharti:
Admin:
Can you please remove the last posting by BABU.
since it has no relation to on going discussion
Once again Taheris/Burhanis come up and try to divert a topic and make fun of everything.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Originally posted by Hussain_KSA:
Good Sense of Humor Babu Bhai. Keep it up

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

[Al-Uqul]

omabharti
Very active
Member # 608 posted August 10, 2008 07:25 PM
________________________________________
"Your Umar has killed Molana Mohsin during the pregnancy of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) when he hit the door of Ali (a.s.) house and that ultimately martyred Molatina Fatima (a.s.)"

For my personal information, I need to hear from some respected members like Br.Porus or Br. Hussain KSA or Br. Insaf or any one with the knowledge
HOW DID ANYONE KNEW THAT FATEM UT ZOHRA RA WAS CARRYING A MALE INSIDE HER WOMB, SECONDLY YOU DO NOT NAME AN UNBORN CHILD TILL AFTER THE BIRTH SO HOW ANYONE KNEW THAT THE NAME WAS MOHSIN
Like I said please respectable answers for the knowledge, NO CHANGING THE TOPIC AND MAKING IT SHIA/SUNNI ISSUE or any irrelevant discussion

Mubarak Reply:
Reference: Year 2005, Morning Moharram Vaaz, Vajihpura Mosque, Boharwadi, Udaipur, Rajasthan, India (CD’s of Year 2005 and 2006 can be ordered from Mr. Aquib Palana Wala, current ‘pesh Imam’ of Rasoolpura mosque, Boharwadi, Udaipur, Rajasthan – this may be addressed to Mr. Luqman Ali Raj, for address please refer my previous post)

Mola Ali (a.s.) and his companions were passing a jungle thronged very-very heavily with ants and similar insects. A companion asked: Who can tell their total number? Mola Ali (a.s.) said: Me, I can not only tell how much they are in number but also can tell how many among them are males and females.

From another source: A rurally residing person asked: What is the distance between Moon and Earth? Mola Ali (a.s.) as per his aptitude replied: If a healthy and young Arabic breed horse run continuously for so many years, months, weeks, days and hours (I forgot those numbers) then how far will it travel will equal the distance between both.

This was 1400 years back, when we in present take average speed of Arabic breed horse and multiply with the period mentioned by Mola Ali (a.s.) then that is equal to present scientific understanding of distance between Moon and Earth.

Dear respected brother Omabharti, If Mola Ali (a.s.) can tell the total presence of ants/insects in that jungle, then can’t he tell what gender does his wife Molatina Fatima (a.s.) bears in her womb? Let me share a personal experience of mine, me an ordinary and common men, when my wife was pregnant I gave name to it – should it be male I will name him so and so and should that be female then I will name her so and so. And I am not unique, should you do survey then you will find many people with similar experience. If I and others can name their unborn babies then why Mola Ali (a.s.) cannot name his unborn babies?

this was narrated in musannaf ibn abu shayba(the one of oldest sunni work ever written)and the narraters are honest (thiqah/thuqat)for sunnis -Muhammad bin Bashir: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v2 p159), Ibn Hajar said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v2 p58). Ubaidllah bin Umar: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v1 p685), Ibn Hajar said: ‘Thiqa Thabt’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p637). Zaid bin Aslam: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Hujja’ (Siar alam alnubala, v5 p316), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p326). more regarded them thuqat..........