In defence of the Silent Majority

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

In defence of the Silent Majority

#1

Unread post by S. Insaf » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:42 am

Dawoodi Bohras and Present Crises
In defence of the Silent Majority

Dawoodi Bohras are "Spineless Idiots".
That is the impression of many Muslim ulama who know them closely.
This remark is offending! Off course!
Shocking! Off course!
But they reason it out as follows:-
Dawoodi Bohras are Spineless - - Because they have no self-respect, willingly suffer insults, humiliation, beatings, exploitation, extortion and not only that, they themselves met out discard, insult and torture to their own blood relations.

Dawoodi Bohras are Idiots - Because they regularly pay their oppressors to strengthen their power. Even educated, well-placed, wealthy and influential Bohras rather than raising their voice against these evils they throw parties and sing praises for their exploitators and extortionists.

The Dawoodi Bohras’ Scholarly Analysis concludes that:-

1. The strange submissiveness of Dawoodi Bohras is due to the nature of their religious authority and doctrines they follow.

2. This is because of sense of belonging, as Bohras are historically a highly well knit community. Most Dawoodi Bohras fall in line for fear of social boycott (Baraat) for fear of losing the sense of belonging?

3. This is because Bohras are a treading community and they value peace above all and do not want to indulge in social and religious conflicts.

4. Majority of Bohras are orthodox and rigid due to their cultural practices and family upbringing. Very few are liberal and open-minded due to the emergence of university education and professionalism.

5. Dawoodi Bohras vehemently revere Hazrat Ali ibne Ibi Talib and Imam Husain ibne Ali who suffered intensively but fought against tyranny and injustice till they were martyred.
Unfortunately in last 100 years the Bohra priesthood has intentionally emphasized on exaggerated narration of victimization of these martyrs and their exemplary passion instead of exploring their bold and uncompromised struggle against oppression and injustice. The victimization of Ahle-Bayt is so much glorified that the mourners take pried in suffering victimization and they have become coward.

6. Dawoodi Bohras are constantly fed the totally distorted information about their religious doctrines with a view to reinforce authority of Dai and his administration legitimizing authoritarian power structure. The sermons deliver during Moharram were totally controlled by Dai's family, but now that had has been stopped and Dawoodi Bohra are forced to listen a single sermon by Dai relayed all over.

7. Right from childhood emphasis on all respect and privileges to Dai, his family and his agents, above others in the community and never never question them however stupid they are.

8. The tight control over the community by their priests to safeguard their vested interests and a definite source of regular inflow of huge wealth for Dai.

9. The tremendous financial contribution in pounds and dollars by NRI Bohras settled in foreign countries has made the Dai and his family members more powerful and arrogant.
10. Ever since Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb started withholding the dissemination of the knowledge of Islam and the fatemid history and other literary gems of the faith, the Ulema class in the community has been completely eliminated. The "keepers of the community’s treasures of the knowledge do not do anything apart from the "blowing their own trumpets”.
The causes of present dispute:-
According to the doctrines of Dawoodi Bohra faith it is the duty and the responsibility of each Dai to openly announce his successor Dai in his life time, with inspiration from hidden Imam. But Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb failed in his duty, though he spent a longest life-time than any other Bohra Dai.
Unimaginable huge surplus money and constant inflow of ample fund, created its usual problem in Dai’s family. The desire of control over the huge ill-gotten wealth and power. “Existence and Inspiration of hidden Imam” has taken a back seat and now it is left to the law court or Mumineen to decide.
What can be done now to save the situation?:-
It is foregone conclusion that if Court’s decision goes in favour of one claimant the other claimant would surely appeal to the Supreme Court and the case would drag on for years.
Still this generation (it may be the last generation) of Dawoodi Bohras that is lucky that it still have few scholars of Islam and Fatimid literature and history, like Prof. Ismail Poonawala and Prof. Abbas Hamdani.
Prof. Ismail Poonawala has already conveyed to the Bombay High Court, by a separate submission through Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community, and rightly so, that:-
“As a result of present dispute, only the Dawoodi Bohra community is affected and non else, it is only just and proper that it must have a say in the appointment / selection of a right person as its leader and spiritual guide. It should not be left to the arbitrary whims of an individual as it’s the current practice. For the last 175 years the succession has been monopolized within one family. The predecessor appoints either his brother or son as successor irrespective of his merits or qualifications to lead the community. By a right person I mean the most pious, most learned and the best qualified as per the qualifications criteria elaborated above. 
How should it be determined that a person is the right person to lead the community and be its spiritual guide? I suggest that it should be left to the good sense of the community. Either through a direct referendum or an indirect process. The referendum can be supervised  by an election commission similar to the Election Commission of India. It is not difficult to constitute such a commission. It can be a 7 or 11 member body selected from the most qualified persons of the community. For example the former chief justice of India, Hon. Justice Ahmadi could head such a Commission. I respectfully beg to submit that it is not an easy task or a quick-fix solution. It will take time. It is high time, however, that steps must be taken now to safeguard   the interest of the community now and in future.” – Ismail Poonawala

It is matter of pride that well-wisher intellectuals of the community have started thinking and acting on these lines. The first-ever survey of its kind among the Dawoodi Bohras was conducted online by an anonymous group between February and August this 2014 year.
As it the present split in Dai’s family has created a lot of turmoil and uncertainty in the community. The Dawoodi Bohra Community is highly suppressed community and there is no culture of discussion and no openness for expressing one’s feelings. The members of the community are not free even to name their children as per their likeness. They just follow the dictates of their exploitative masters. However agitated they may be but fear the consequences of speaking their minds. So the only alternative was an online survey, though it was restricted to the Bohras who were educated and computer literate. The internet gave a forum however limited it was it gave anonymity to the respondents.
The survey's findings blow the myth of a cohesive, united community unquestioningly devoted to its spiritual head. This is the first time the closed and tightly controlled community has given vent to its feelings on the conduct of those who control it.
This Survey points out that:-
66% of Dawoodi Bohras feel confused, spiritually paralyzed or betrayed by the split in the community's spiritual leadership.

23% of them are staying on in the community out of faith;

for the rest, family, cultural identity or fear are compelling them to do so.

38% have given their oath of allegiance to the new spiritual head freely; the rest did so reluctantly.

64% are against the uttering of laanat and declaring a social boycott on members of the community. This practice has been adopted by supporters of the current head Muffadal Saifuddin, to denounce those who do not support him.
The trickiest question was; which of the two rival claimants did the respondents accept? This was an optional question, and 266 respondents answered it. Of them, only 32% accepted Muffadal Saifuddin, as the Syedna's successor, while 46% supported the Syedna's brother, Khuzaima Qutbuddin.

The practice of uttering curses was felt as a new low for the community. Only 3.5% had no problem with the practice.
36% of the respondents were from the Indian subcontinent,

88% of them were graduates or postgraduates,

73 % were men.
This survey beyond boubt proves that Bohras are niether spineless nor idiots, they are terribly afraid and supressed, they would speak out their minds once a safe forum given to them. Let us give voice to the supressed and silent majority of Bohras.
This survey is a future road map to choose a right person as its leader and spiritual guide.
Lets hope the Bombay High Court or any other law agency does a through and all inclusive survey as suggested by learned professor Ismail bhai Poonawala.



maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#2

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:29 am

S. Insaf wrote: This survey beyond boubt proves that Bohras are niether spineless nor idiots, they are terribly afraid and supressed, they would speak out their minds once a safe forum given to them. Let us give voice to the supressed and silent majority of Bohras.
Surveys do not prove anything unless they are conducted on sound mathematical basis, principally the randomization principles and accounting for biases. The best they can do is provide data for inference which can be manipulated to suit prejudices of those who infer.

"Impressions of Ulama" and "Scholarly Analysis" are meaningless words without citation of proper references.

This forum is claimed to be the only free forum for Bohras but participation is minuscule. There are currently 3441 registered members out of a population in excess of 1 million, That is 0.34 per cent. Out of these there appear to be about a dozen regular contributors. Thus participation on the only free forum is 0.001%.

Most vocal participants here appear to be self-hating Bohras and particularly non-Bohras who shit on the religion of Bohras. In one particular case, anajmi has been shitting on them profusely every day for the past 14 years and the rest of the 0.34% have nothing to say.

Let me cite a recent example. One of non-Bohras claimed that Imam in Quran means "book of records" categorically. When presented with contrary evidence and pressed, he admitted he was referring only to 36:12. Then anajmi, who butts in every conversation on this board, could not categorically admit that Quran also uses Imam to mean a human guide. Instead he went on to say that Bohras use it to mean hidden Imam and Imam Tayyab specifically and use the ayat to justify that Imam can go into hiding.

Those who are knowledgeable about Bohra religion, and you won't find any on this board, know that this is a gross caricature of their interpretation. It is more accurate to say that Imam Mubeen in ayat 36:12 refers to Lawh-e-Mahfooz. That is Shia and Sunni scholarly interpretation. This was indeed pointed out by Adam, an erstwhile participant on this board.

Mr Insaf, you are not helping your cause by quoting unauthenticated material and bringing them to attention of self-hating Bohras who are this site's principal partcipants.



shabbir4u
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#3

Unread post by shabbir4u » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:34 am

The article post by Insaf is wrtiten by SKQ Son's or Daughter I have recd email from dai Hearth follower of SKQ.



SBM
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#4

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:38 am

Maethist
May be you are the mouth piece, None of the members (Anajmi not included) are self hating Bohras, Most of the people who you consider as self hating Bohras are known to me and they are proud of their culture and still follow some of the rituals of their community not in SLAVERY setting but at home with close family members and friends.
Just because many of us have opened our eyes and freed ourselves from the yolks of salvery, you consider us the Self hating, did it ever occur to you that you may be SELF PRAISING ABDE BOHRA who see no wrong.
About your observation of this web site not attracting others, you are so of the rocker, this website has been visited by many and unfortunately because of the fear by the Established Masters and their fear mongering, many are silent sheeps who would prefer to be sacrificial lambs rather then Revolutionary leaders, yourself included..
Please let us know what contribution have you made to betterment of the community or this forum other than verbal diarrhea...



maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#5

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:57 am

SBM,

I have no personal knowledge of any of you who participate on this forum. I 'know' them through their contributions here. If you do not participate in the Community at large but enjoy your 'culture and rituals' privately, you have wisely decided not to remain a self-hating Bohra. I commend you for that. However, if you hold the views you hold and participate in the Bohra Community and their religious gatherings, then by definition, you are a self-hating Bohra. That is true of all who attend functions but dislike being there.

Yet I will look out for you defending your religion, including ritual but not 'culture' against bigoted non-Bohras like anajmi. I think you are completely ignorant about deeper aspects of your religion. Prove me wrong.



SBM
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#6

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:41 pm

if you hold the views you hold and participate in the Bohra Community and their religious gatherings, then by definition, you are a self-hating Bohra. That is true of all who attend functions but dislike being there.
And that would be 95% of the Abde Bohras :mrgreen:
Yet I will look out for you defending your religion, including ritual
And how do you plan to do that?
Last edited by SBM on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#7

Unread post by alam » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:50 am

shabbir4u wrote:The article post by Insaf is wrtiten by SKQ Son's or Daughter I have recd email from dai Hearth follower of SKQ.
Many are posing as "die Hearth" followers of SKQ to discredit SMS. I am one of them. - rather should say have been recruited to pose as SKQ follower and infiltrate to do harm to SKQ.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:30 am

This forum is claimed to be the only free forum for Bohras but participation is minuscule. There are currently 3441 registered members out of a population in excess of 1 million, That is 0.34 per cent. Out of these there appear to be about a dozen regular contributors. Thus participation on the only free forum is 0.001%.
Not really scientific.

For example, 10% of the population should be eliminated as they are over 65 years of age and wouldn't care much about participation on an internet forum. Now, the majority of the bohras recide in India. The total percentage of computer users in India with internet access is 15%. So applying the same numbers to the 1 million bohras (less a few thousand in the us) we can say that out of 900,000 bohras, being generous, around 200,000 have internet. Since we are talking about individuals and not households, we need to remove the kids from the equation as well, which is about 30% on average. So, now we are left with around a population of 170,000 bohras with internet access. 3441 out of 170,000 now comes to slightly more than 2% which is 500% more than your non-scientific estimate!!



haqniwaat
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#9

Unread post by haqniwaat » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:25 pm

Most people are too afraid to be on any forum. The threats from muffy and gang are continual.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:30 pm

A small mistake in my calculation, which actually works out better for the progressives. Excluding 30% children from 200,000 gets us to 140,000 and not 170,000 as I previously stated. 3441 out of that is actually 2.45 %. Also remember that a lot of people come on this forum but have not yet registered. We see many new members state that they have been visiting this forum for a long time but only recently decided to register and participate.



haqniwaat
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#11

Unread post by haqniwaat » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:37 pm

I think you will get far more participation if you curtail the Wahabis and also the outright attacks on Duat Kiraam RA. I've heard many people call this a 'dushmano ni site', which it clearly is not.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:44 pm

So in other words you guys who run when there is an attack? Only want to participate when there is no one attacking you? You do not have the balls to defend your Duat Kiraam? If there is someone attacking your Duat Kiraam, more of you should participate to defend them. You guys are the opposite. Instead of defending them, you guys are whining and running.



maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#13

Unread post by maethist » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:46 pm

Let us complete the calculation. Out of 3441, there are about 50 active participants. As a percentage of 140,000 with internet access, that is 0.36%.

Target for this site should aim at 700,000 adult Bohras. The active participation then is 0.007% of target Bohra population.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:52 pm

You can bring water to the horse, but you cannot make the horse drink it. The forum has been brought to them. Whether they choose to participate or not is upto them.



maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#15

Unread post by maethist » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:58 pm

haqniwaat wrote:I think you will get far more participation if you curtail the Wahabis and also the outright attacks on Duat Kiraam RA. I've heard many people call this a 'dushmano ni site', which it clearly is not.
I have been reviewing the reception that participants of this forum have afforded Adam, a person knowledgeable about Bohra religion. He was hounded out not only by non-Bohra wahabis like anajmi but also, more importantly, by self-hating Bohras who do not much care about recent Dais nor what their predecessors stood for. His 'crime' was that he zealously supported traditional Bohra beliefs for which he was much abused.

And he may not have been the only one.



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#16

Unread post by alam » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:49 pm

(You can use different analysis to come up with numbers that suit your purpose. There is something about numbers that invokes faith where otherwise there is none. by numbers I don't just mean 1, 2, 3 34% or .901%. What you say, do, in front of 1 vs 3 vs 8, or 80 varies so much as a result of one's perception of threat, safety, etc.)

S. Insaaf's commentary on the silent majority doesn't account for the vocal majority, who continue to moan and groan, louder and more enraged than ever before in the not so "Silent" circle of the "safety of their" groups of 2-3, 4 or 80. They continue to protest, as long as they feel no fear from their immediate audience of betrayal. I'm afraid to conclude, Mr. Insaaf, that the so called silent majority is highly selective on where and when they are silent, and where and when they are vocal.

This is but a tip of the iceberg that the Titanic (Dawat-e-Hadiyah) has encountered. The public silence of the privately vocal majority is no indication of the unrest and rage expressed in private circles.

On another note, Poonawala's observations will not be immediately welcomed by the vast majority because it (the call for elections for a dai) goes against fundamental faith. I think it would be wiser to stay focused on the emotional blackmail and hijacking of faith in the name of religion. It would be far better for the reformists to stay clear with their vision of demanding accountability and transparency (of finances) as they have done historically, in addition to demanding accountability and transparency of ethics and integrity.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#17

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:06 pm

maethist,

i disagree about your statement re: adam. he was knowledgeable in arabic and only partially knowledgeable about the bohra deen (neem hakim khatre jaan). whatever he quoted was sabak-learnt and drummed into his brain, self-serving information, all twisted and perverted, mangled, manipulated and stretched by hook or by crook to fit the ulterior motives of the haramkhor establishment. his fancy and far-fetched theories went beyond the pale of kufr to justify sajda to the dai, non-accountability of any kind, esp. re: fiscal matters, elevation of dai to ilah ul ardh status, justification of dai and his family's ayyash life style, condoning and even encouraging the dai and his family's cruel and cold-blooded killing of wild animals for sport and pleasure, the inhuman treatment and merciless persecution of any bohras who opposed the dai and his establishment's tyranny and unislamic practices and behaviour etc, all this conclusively proved that he was dishonest, insincere and nothing but His Master's Voice, parroting their kufr and mangled 'deen' without any conscience or semblance of scruples. it was like the devil quoting scripture to suit his own ends. surely you have heard of iblis who was supposed to be the most knowledgeable of all farishta's? so should we invite the great scholar iblis on this forum?

fyi, i am not a self-hating bohra (a misnomer of a term sprung from the muddied swamp in your brain). in fact i am a very proud bohra and bohra traditions and practices but only as they existed before the last 3 dai's (the present idiot included), who have bastardised our beliefs and our heritage, mutated our culture and traditions and turned the entire community into non-muslims, kafirs, non-thinking and inward looking retards. they have in fact turned the bohras into universal haters. bohras hate everyone, irrespective of their religion, creed, caste or sect.

bohras have been indoctrinated to the point that they refer to all sunni's as either wahabi's, salafi's, jahils, ola musalman etc, all uttered with sneering contempt and utmost derision. other shias are referred to as jahannum vasi, ismaili's (aga khani's) as kafars, hindus as murti pujak, pagal, christians and jews as yahudi/nassara, as if they are all idiots and lower than deserving of contempt. blacks are treated as untouchables, the poor as the 'accursed', and this mentality starts from our own community, where it is accepted that the generally fairer bohras (which includes the dai's family) and those with wealth are somehow privileged and deserving of 'entitlements' and VIP treatment. bohras are the most racist people on earth whether they are in the west or east. all the outward veneer of friendliness with other communities and talk of 'arey vohra ane parsee/gujrati/aga khani etc to mama fai na" etc, is all crap, superficial and self-serving hypocrisy, designed to make us glow inwardly with that feel-gud factor and smoothen relations in business and at work.

adam was given a free-hand to come and post here, the same privileges that are given to all and sundry who join this forum. no one has 'forced' him to leave and he does come and post here whenever it is convenient to him. he pops up like the proverbial jack-in-the-box, makes a few guerilla-type strikes and then retreats into his lair when challenged and his bullshit disproved. he is a coward and a typical establishment toeing abde kothari bully. he expects that only some certain 'chosen' should answer him, he has the gall and the temerity to define the terms of his debate based on his own arbitrary parameters. so the moment someone hints at the nass debate, or questions the dai's ayyashi or his cruel hunting practices or the thousands of lavish ziyafats and the massive sums of black money he receives, then you are a non-bohra and now 'undeserving' of HH's attention. he even had the impudence on dozens of occasions to dictate to the admin of this forum as if this site is his baap-ki-jaagir and has to obey the kothari diktats like their other ass-licker sycophantic sites.

as i see it, your only grouse against this forum is that allows non-bohra shia haters and by extension - bohra ideology haters - to come here and post. well, aren't you too a non-bohra now? you were a bohra once but left, disgusted with all the corruption, nepotism, tyranny and kufr, but you keep coming back here to defend the pristine bohra faith. so does that make you also a new-age self hating bohra?

let us face it. the bohras of today have been systematically and very cleverly misled and taken astray to the point that the links with islam are merely a cunning lip service and tenuous at best. bohras proudly say 'hame bohras chhe, musalman nathi'. the last 3 dai's have clearly worked hard at convincing all politicians, law enforcement and others that we are 'different', we are not 'those other muslims'. purely for this sake, i too will say, then declare the bohra deen as a separate religion and carry on undisturbed, stop this charade of being 'muslims' and being staunch adherents of islam. i confidently predict that the time is not far that this whole termite-ridden edifice will collapse and one of the primary factors will be this factor of trying to play on both sides of the game. portraying being part of the larger muslim ummah when convenient and then showing detachment as bohras when inconvenient. this treachery will not and cannot continue for too long.

at that time, adam, his cohorts in crime and deception, and his haramkhor masters will be swept away by the tide of history.



Humsafar
Posts: 2508
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#18

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:07 pm

maethist wrote: I have been reviewing the reception that participants of this forum have afforded Adam, a person knowledgeable about Bohra religion. He was hounded out not only by non-Bohra wahabis like anajmi but also, more importantly, by self-hating Bohras who do not much care about recent Dais nor what their predecessors stood for. His 'crime' was that he zealously supported traditional Bohra beliefs for which he was much abused.

And he may not have been the only one.
We have some acolyte of Adam here. For your information, his crime was that he zealously supported the corrupt Kothar regime, and he justified it by using or rather distorting Bohra beliefs and tradition. Go back and read the threads where Adam has been engaged and challenged on Bohra beliefs and every time he came up empty. The regulars on this forum know what a weasel Adam is/was. He is like a guerrilla sniper who comes in stealthy, attacks and disappears. As far as defending Bohra beliefs is concerned, Badrijanab (minus his Sheikh Ahemdali obsession) is a better defender.

Also, "Self-hating Bohra" is an interesting choice of phrase, lifted directly from the Israeli propaganda machine. Every thinking Jew who criticises Israeli policies against Palestinians is quickly dismissed as a self-hating Jew. Similarly any Bohra who is critical of the Kohtar is now being dismissed as a self-hating Bohra. It is instructive how oppressors use the same vocabulary and tactics to put down those whom they oppress, to trivialise critical thinking as some kind of personal shortcoming.

Actually if you pause to think, no thinking Bohra is against Bohra beliefs. What goes against Bohra beliefs is this whole setup that exploits Bohras. And who has set up this setup? The recent Dais and their royal family. It is this is system - and the strange hybrid of "Bohra religion" born of it - that blatantly flouts Bohra beliefs day in and day out.

Most Bohras who come on this forum and choose to speak up are not against Bohra beliefs. They are against this corrupt system. But since people like matheist, Adam et al cannot defend and justify this corrupt system the best thing they can do is go on the offensive, and attack the victims. This is exactly what Israel does, too. It kills Palestinians and blames them for being killed. BTW, it is again instructive that our enlightened royal Bohra regime is not the only admirer of Israel and its tactics. Modi and BJP have for long been taking instructions from the Jewish state on how to deal with Muslims. Kothar is learning too on how to deal with dissent. The first step is call them "self-hating Bohras". Can anyone also see a nexus here: Israel-Modi-Kohtar? There is an adage for this kind of thing, what is it, birds of a feather flock together?



maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#19

Unread post by maethist » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:44 pm

Humsafar wrote:. But since people like matheist, Adam et al cannot defend and justify this corrupt system the best thing they can do is go on the offensive, and attack the victims. ........ The first step is call them "self-hating Bohras".

I do not share Adam's or Bohra beliefs in general. And I am against corruption in whatever form it takes.

I have seen caricature of Bohra beliefs by non-Bohras and tacit acceptance by Bohras of charges of shirk etc. That is the narrow focus of my contributions so far. If you feel that there is non-financial corruption in dogma by those you accuse of being corrupt, then that is not the issue I am addressing. It is best left to Bohras without outsiders jumping into call them kafirs and mushriks and seek to overthrow the entire Shia edifice. As far as financial corruption is concerned, there is no difference between Bohra and non-Bohra Muslim organizations, or for that matter non-Muslim organizations.

You have correctly stated that I lifted the term self-hating Jew and used it here because I thought it similarly applies to Bohra participants on this forum who hate themselves for being forced, for whatever reason, to be participants in community functions.

I must add that I support freedom of belief and worship in all forms. I personally do not subscribe to 'religious' beliefs.



haqniwaat
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#20

Unread post by haqniwaat » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:50 pm

anajmi wrote:So in other words you guys who run when there is an attack? Only want to participate when there is no one attacking you? You do not have the balls to defend your Duat Kiraam? If there is someone attacking your Duat Kiraam, more of you should participate to defend them. You guys are the opposite. Instead of defending them, you guys are whining and running.
I haven't run anywhere, Mr. Anajmi, but when you attack Duat Kiraam RA from Burhanuddin Mola RA to Syedna Zoeb RA, you are attacking the very faith that you claim to be a part of. The Dawoodi Bohra faith revolves around the Dai and he is the center of the universe per the faith itself. I hope this is getting through to those who still don't get it, otherwise, lakum deenokum waleya deen. No hard feelings, brothers and sisters.



maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#21

Unread post by maethist » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:01 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:maethist,


as i see it, your only grouse against this forum is that allows non-bohra shia haters and by extension - bohra ideology haters - to come here and post. well, aren't you too a non-bohra now? you were a bohra once but left, disgusted with all the corruption, nepotism, tyranny and kufr, but you keep coming back here to defend the pristine bohra faith. so does that make you also a new-age self hating bohra?

I do not object to 'non-bohra shia haters' participating on this forum. I was addressing the issue of how that may affect participation of believing Bohras on the forum. As far as corruption is concerned, I will leave you and yours to internally settle the issues among Bohras.

I left because I found atheism more congenial. I retain the respect for all forms religious worship.



canadian
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#22

Unread post by canadian » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:14 pm

haqniwaat wrote:
anajmi wrote:So in other words you guys who run when there is an attack? Only want to participate when there is no one attacking you? You do not have the balls to defend your Duat Kiraam? If there is someone attacking your Duat Kiraam, more of you should participate to defend them. You guys are the opposite. Instead of defending them, you guys are whining and running.
I haven't run anywhere, Mr. Anajmi, but when you attack Duat Kiraam RA from Burhanuddin Mola RA to Syedna Zoeb RA, you are attacking the very faith that you claim to be a part of. The Dawoodi Bohra faith revolves around the Dai and he is the center of the universe per the faith itself. I hope this is getting through to those who still don't get it, otherwise, lakum deenokum waleya deen. No hard feelings, brothers and sisters.
OMG. I am LOST. All my life I believed Allah and Quaran were centre of my universe!

According to Mr. haqniwaat and all cults, if you question or criticize your leader/dai, then you are opposing or attacking him and that is a NO, NO. You are not supposed to have independent thoughts; you just follow the leader blindly and always praise him. Wow!



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:16 pm

The Dawoodi Bohra faith revolves around the Dai and he is the center of the universe per the faith itself. I hope this is getting through to those who still don't get it, otherwise, lakum deenokum waleya deen.
lakum deenokum waleya deen applies to the deen of muslims (Islam) and kafirs. It is a part of Surah Kafiroon. I am a follower of Islam and you are a follower of something called Dawoodi Bohra faith which revolves around the Dai and he is the center of the universe as per that faith. So that makes you a kafir. Do not quote ayahs that you do not understand.



truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#24

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:38 pm

maethist wrote:
Al Zulfiqar wrote:maethist,


as i see it, your only grouse against this forum is that allows non-bohra shia haters and by extension - bohra ideology haters - to come here and post. well, aren't you too a non-bohra now? you were a bohra once but left, disgusted with all the corruption, nepotism, tyranny and kufr, but you keep coming back here to defend the pristine bohra faith. so does that make you also a new-age self hating bohra?

I do not object to 'non-bohra shia haters' participating on this forum. I was addressing the issue of how that may affect participation of believing Bohras on the forum. As far as corruption is concerned, I will leave you and yours to internally settle the issues among Bohras.

I left because I found atheism more congenial. I retain the respect for all forms religious worship.
wow you are a athiest, no wonder you sounded so dumb and stupid



maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#25

Unread post by maethist » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:55 pm

Humsafar wrote: Most Bohras who come on this forum and choose to speak up are not against Bohra beliefs.
anajmi wrote: lakum deenokum waleya deen applies to the deen of muslims (Islam) and kafirs. It is a part of Surah Kafiroon. I am a follower of Islam and you are a follower of something called Dawoodi Bohra faith which revolves around the Dai and he is the center of the universe as per that faith. So that makes you a kafir. Do not quote ayahs that you do not understand.
Humsafar,

This is addresses specifically to you. although I expect all-knowing, all-righteous anajmi will be quite unable to restrain his urge and butt in first. anajmi's presence on this forum is omni, as in omnipresent.

Since you are not against Bohra beliefs, what is your response to anajmi's charge that Bohras are kafirs?

(As an aside, the word kafir is used in the Quran for unbelievers in God. Quran basically has God say, "Believe in me or else you are a kafir and I am going to punish you." But Kafir, in common usage, is also a swear word of insult and abuse. It is similar to 'bastard' which originally meant a child born to woman who was not married. Now it is used as a swear word of insult and abuse).



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:34 pm

A bastard is an abuse only to the one who is not a bastard or to the one who is ashamed of being born out of wedlock. If someone is proud of being a bastard, then he shouldn't consider the label as abusive. That is simple logic.

Similarly in your case, are you ashamed of being a kafir? Cause that is the only reason why the label of kafir would sound abusive to you. I thought you became a kafir because it was congenial. Why be ashamed of it then?

And please, I am too smart for your reverse psychological to work on me. :wink:



zinger
Posts: 1951
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#27

Unread post by zinger » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:28 am

maethist wrote:
Humsafar wrote: Most Bohras who come on this forum and choose to speak up are not against Bohra beliefs.
anajmi wrote: lakum deenokum waleya deen applies to the deen of muslims (Islam) and kafirs. It is a part of Surah Kafiroon. I am a follower of Islam and you are a follower of something called Dawoodi Bohra faith which revolves around the Dai and he is the center of the universe as per that faith. So that makes you a kafir. Do not quote ayahs that you do not understand.
Humsafar,

This is addresses specifically to you. although I expect all-knowing, all-righteous anajmi will be quite unable to restrain his urge and butt in first. anajmi's presence on this forum is omni, as in omnipresent.

Since you are not against Bohra beliefs, what is your response to anajmi's charge that Bohras are kafirs?

(As an aside, the word kafir is used in the Quran for unbelievers in God. Quran basically has God say, "Believe in me or else you are a kafir and I am going to punish you." But Kafir, in common usage, is also a swear word of insult and abuse. It is similar to 'bastard' which originally meant a child born to woman who was not married. Now it is used as a swear word of insult and abuse).
Good luck in trying to get one from him. i would suggest you not hold your breath on it.

from the many years that i have been here, not even once have i seen people like humsafar, az, sbm or even a stalwart like s insaf etc etc rise to defend or clarify the lies that non-Bohras spread here.

it is people like doctor/mubarak/badrijanab, adam, true bohra, progticide, DBL/qutbi-londoner/qutbi hero and surprisingly enough, our resident virus even, who have taken up cudgels on behalf of the faith

even porus and atheists like kansas has often taken a stand against non-bohras

i personally dont understand these reformist bohras because they always "claim" to be more concerned about the prevalent corruption, but it is there silence which speaks a 1000 words about where there faith lies. they claim that the last 3 Dais have corrupted the faith but it is not just the Islam practiced by the last 3 Dais but the Islam practiced by the Imams from the time of Maula Ali that is attacked here while our "champions of the reform movement" sit in the sidelines watching the tamasha

why do they not get involved? maybe because they are afraid of getting their hands dirty, or maybe they are, like you said, self-hating Bohras.

whatever it is, like i said, dont hold your breath expecting an answer from humsafar or any reformist bohra/orthrodox-hating bohra



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#28

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:50 am

Which bohra beliefs are being ridiculed here ? please clarify !

As long as bohra beleifs are in line with Islamic principles, no one likes to take a pot shot at it, unless they are brainwashed, islamophobic non muslims, which there are none on this forum.

I have asked this question in the past, is “hiddenness” of Imam part or centre of bohra belief ? there is no conclusive discussion. However there are glaring examples of how “hiddenness” of Imam is exploited / used as a major tool to oppress and loot commoners for greed of power and wealth. At the same time, how “hiddenness” contradicts the bohra belief which requires Imam to be present and lead in every generation.

Imam going into hiding was a political requirement and not spiritual one. Yet this historical event is incorporated as bohra belief.

There is no harm in respecting any religious beliefs, as long as they do not become a basis of oppression and harm humanity. There are bunch of religious beliefs and practices which harm the society and environment.

First clarify what is bohra belief and then debate !



Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#29

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:02 am

humanbeing wrote:I have asked this question in the past, is “hiddenness” of Imam part or centre of bohra belief ? there is no conclusive discussion. However there are glaring examples of how “hiddenness” of Imam is exploited / used as a major tool to oppress and loot commoners for greed of power and wealth. At the same time, how “hiddenness” contradicts the bohra belief which requires Imam to be present and lead in every generation.
In the caliphate of Hz. 3rd sahib, his relatives were handpicked and posted as officers (aamils) in various plush cities. They went tyrannical - looted the commoner and rapped their women folks! Unfortunately Hz. 3rd instead of punishing guilty kept his eyes closed on all complaints!!! Why Mola Ali a.s., the mustakar Imam of his time remained concealed at large and didn't took action against Hz. 3rd sahib?

All children's of the region were killed by Firaun. Why the messenger of Allah, Moosa a.s. has not stopped him and let the 'zulm' happened in his very presence? The height is for four decades (forty years) he served Firaun! Firaun claim was, "I am God", messenger of Allah, Moosa was serving to this zaalim! Remember Kufr is bigger zulm than any other form of zulm. So why Moosa remained hidden?!!!

Several similar analogies can be quoted like above. The answer to above is: Time appropriateness.

When time came and Mola Ali a.s. became caliphate he stopped Talha and Zubair from doing zulm over the 'maal-a-ganimat', during the era of 1-2-3 they use to swallow fat part of booty. Ali a.s. said to them, you are like other sahaba or commoner and will be given share equal to them - Mola Ali a.s. stopped their zulm when time became appropriate. Even to his brother Aqeel - Ali a.s. gave only the justified share and not the inflated amount as offered to him by Muawiya.

2nd tied a date-rope over neck of Ali and dragged him to court of 1st so Ali may tender his misaaq to 1st, these were personal matter - Ali a.s. kept patience to all tyranny over him. When time became different - on martyrdom of Fatima a.s. when 1-2-3 wanted to dig the grave and take Fatima a.s. body out - Mola Ali a.s. unsheathed Zulfiquar - they all remembered Khaiber and all other wars where they use to run away and only Ali a.s. brave the enemies and made the Islam won - on seeing Zulfiquar in hand of Ali again they all ran away. Ali a.s. shown such height of patience and such level of courage - all time factor.

Imam Ali Zainul Abideen, Imam Baqir, Imam Sadiq, Imam Ismail, Imam Mohamed bin Ismail, Imam Abdullah, Imam Ahmed and Imam Hussain al Mastoor - time was not appropriate they remained concealed, though they did their work silently like writing dua's, marsiya's, etc.

And when time came Fatimi Imam Molana Mahdi a.s. broke the concealment and started the Golden period of Islam and established the Islamic sultanate. For approx 300 years Mecca and Medina remained in the control of Fatimi Imams, the zulm of zaalim was reined, knowledge prosperity as well as material prosperity came to all seekers. Time was appropriate.

Next when time will become appropriate the Imam of that time will appear and fix all zaalims. Inshallah.



zinger
Posts: 1951
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#30

Unread post by zinger » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:28 am

humanbeing wrote:Which bohra beliefs are being ridiculed here ? please clarify !
WHAT BOHRA BELIEFS ARE NOT BEING RIDICULED HERE? FROM THE OBVIOUS TO THE NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, THEY ARE ALL BEING MOCKED. I WILL NOT GIVE YOU THE TYPICAL ANSWER OF 'GO TO A SABAK' BUT YES, THERE ARE CERTAIN ARTICLES OF FAITH THAT ONE HAS TO ACCEPT AS A GIVEN
humanbeing wrote: As long as bohra beleifs are in line with Islamic principles, no one likes to take a pot shot at it, unless they are brainwashed, islamophobic non muslims, which there are none on this forum.
THERE ARE PLENTY ON THIS FORUM
humanbeing wrote:I have asked this question in the past, is “hiddenness” of Imam part or centre of bohra belief ? there is no conclusive discussion.
THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS DISCUSSIONS ON IT. IF YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE IT OR NOT ACCEPT IT, THEN IT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE.
humanbeing wrote:However there are glaring examples of how “hiddenness” of Imam is exploited / used as a major tool to oppress and loot commoners for greed of power and wealth. At the same time, how “hiddenness” contradicts the bohra belief which requires Imam to be present and lead in every generation.
AGREED BUT AGAIN, HIDDEN DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE DOES NOT LEAD. AGAIN, AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT ONE NEEDS TO ACCEPT
humanbeing wrote:Imam going into hiding was a political requirement and not spiritual one. Yet this historical event is incorporated as bohra belief.
CAN YOU PROVE 100% THAT THE IMAM IS NOT IN HIDING FOR POLITICAL REASONS???? I BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR POLITICAL REASONS GIVEN THE MASSACRE SUNNI MUSLIMS ARE DOING OF SHIA MUSLIMS. NOW IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, PLEASE DO SHARE WHAT YOU THINK YOUR REASONS FOR THIS ARE
humanbeing wrote:There is no harm in respecting any religious beliefs, as long as they do not become a basis of oppression and harm humanity. There are bunch of religious beliefs and practices which harm the society and environment.
I AGREE AND THIS IS WHERE I STAND BY YOU
humanbeing wrote:First clarify what is bohra belief and then debate !
I REALLY DONT WANT TO . THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED THREADBARE BUT YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT. I REALLY DO NOT WISH TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH YOU BECAUSE A) I RESPECT YOU AND B) YOU HAVE TIME AND AGAIN CHOSEN TO IGNORE THE PROOF PUT BEFORE YOU


p.s. ignore the UPPER CASE. i was trying to highlight my points before i discovered how i could embed your quote as a reply. and i dont want to type it all over again