In defence of the Silent Majority

[ghulam muhammed]

To the ones who criticize and belittle the reform movement :-

"A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history"

---- Mahatma Gandhi.

[Biradar]

To the ones who criticize and belittle the reform movement :-

"A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history"

---- Mahatma Gandhi.

True. However, this is only if the larger society is ready and supportive of the change. India was ready and suffering under the British. Situation is not analogous for the Bohras. If that was the case, and people were upset with the da'i, they would have left in droves and joined the reform movement. Or, when S. Qutbuddin made his claims, flocked to him. Neither has happened.

Now, I am not saying reform is a bad thing, or we should not struggle against the excesses of Mr. Muffadul and his cohort of thieves and baboons. However, we have to first realize the cause why people continue with him, even though he is an idiot and appears like a complete fool when he opens his mouth. It is not fear. It is simply that people do not want to rock the boat, do not want to stop going to their friend's darees, birthdays, nikah, etc etc etc. Bohras enjoy sitting in thal and gossiping, hanging out with buddies, and having a merry time. I mean, for most bohras Allah is an abstract entity, and they probably have little care or fear of him. But jaman is a concrete reality, right in front of them. People, in general, don't like to think about abstractions. They rather enjoy their meal here and now, placid in their belief that their da'i is working hard to take them to janaat.

Unless there is a sea change in Bohra attitudes reform is not going to happen. We have been arguing on this forum for more than a decade, without any major progress. I do believe this forum has made an impact, however in a few educated people, mostly in the west. Its reach is probably zero in places where it really matters. That was also, incidentally, one of the points maethist was trying to make before he was hounded out. Lets not chase out everyone who comes here, leaving this forum just for a handful!

[anajmi]

Unless there is a sea change in Bohra attitudes reform is not going to happen.

So in other words, unless there is reform, reform is not going to happen? With all that "intelligent" writing, is this the best you could come up with? Oh wait - "wahhabi wahhabi"!!

[ghulam muhammed]

It is not fear. It is simply that people do not want to rock the boat, do not want to stop going to their friend's darees, birthdays, nikah, etc etc etc. Bohras enjoy sitting in thal and gossiping, hanging out with buddies, and having a merry time. I mean, for most bohras Allah is an abstract entity, and they probably have little care or fear of him. But jaman is a concrete reality, right in front of them. People, in general, don't like to think about abstractions. They rather enjoy their meal here and now, placid in their belief that their da'i is working hard to take them to janaat.

I completely agree to the above and this is the sad part of our community !

[Biradar]

Unless there is a sea change in Bohra attitudes reform is not going to happen.

So in other words, unless there is reform, reform is not going to happen? With all that "intelligent" writing, is this the best you could come up with? Oh wait - "wahhabi wahhabi"!!

It is best if you stay out of discussions your intellect is unable to comprehend.

Bohras need to feel the desire for a change. Thats all. At present, they do not feel the desire. Reform is a much bigger issue, beyond popular feelings. If people want a change, then the small band of reformists can show them that there is a life outside their kothar driven existence, and that it can be meaningful, religiously fulfilling, and most importantly, also socially fulfilling. However, without the desire for change, all the reformist philosophy and structure, developed over last 60-70 years, will be useless. The horse needs to be thirsty first. Otherwise the cool, refreshing water will never be drunk.

[anajmi]

Bohras need to feel the desire for a change.

Time and again people have stated that more and more bohras are fed up with the current system. I know they are, Al Z just quoted most of his acquaintances are, and yet here you are saying that there is no desire for a change. The desire for change is there, but there are many more like yourself who dismiss this desire as non-existent. That is the primary reason there is no change. You want the clergy to keep doing what they are doing because apparently, according to you, bohras are happy to be standing in front of their lords with folded hands and bent backs. That is not human tendency. Human tendency is to be free. No human bows down to another human happily. Show them that they don't have to and they won't. But then along come people like maethist and you claiming that bohras are happy in the pitiful existence. If they are, then they are the saddest lot around.

[anajmi]

There are two sets of people over here. One that wants to free the bohras from the tyranny of the Dai. And one that doesn't really care. Now, the bohras themselves are unaware of the fact that they are being lied to. Tell them the truth. Tell them that the Dai isn't going to get them to jannah. Who is going to tell them the truth? Biradar and maethist? Of course not. They are themselves kafirs. They don't believe in jannah. So to expect them to participate in reforming bohras is foolishness. The only ones who care are the ones that believe in jannah and know that the Dai isn't going to get them there. So, if the bohras have any hope of being free of this slavery to a corrupt human, that hope is going come from people like me who believe in jannah and know that the bohras aren't going to get there thanks to their Dai.

[kansas]

Humsafar wrote:

2) Criticism of Bohra clergy by non-abde Bohras and Wahabis. Both see that there is fundamentally wrong with the picture. Both criticise the clergy from different standpoints. Our agendas are different. It is unfortunate that the two get clubbed together. Not only that, this lack of discrimination actually comes in handy for abde defenders. It is easy for them to dismiss reformists or anyone critical of the clergy as Wahabis. It is a tricky situation, one which reformists have been navigating with great difficulty.

There is a reason abdes routinely lump reformists on this forum in with "Wahhabis". They do this because reformists ARE like Wahhabis!

Both groups attack fundamental Shia and Bohra doctrine. And neither group is content with simply living their lives with like-minded individuals as they see fit. Both aggressively proselytize, with the goal of convincing Bohras of the incorrectness of their belief so that they believe in something else. And both groups are prone to belittling Bohras and to grandiose self -righteousness, seeing it as their job to educate the ignorant.

The main difference between the "Wahhabis" and the reformists is that the "Wahhabis" possess a self-awareness the reformists curiously lack. The "Wahhabis" clearly state they are here in an attempt to make Bohras into non-Bohras. The reformists vehemently deny this charge, and claim they are trying to restore Bohra belief to some imagined pristine state that existed before the 51st Dai.

Let's get back to the post that started this whole thread.

Still this generation (it may be the last generation) of Dawoodi Bohras that is lucky that it still have few scholars of Islam and Fatimid literature and history, like Prof. Ismail Poonawala and Prof. Abbas Hamdani.
Prof. Ismail Poonawala has already conveyed to the Bombay High Court, by a separate submission through Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community, and rightly so, that:-
“As a result of present dispute, only the Dawoodi Bohra community is affected and non else, it is only just and proper that it must have a say in the appointment / selection of a right person as its leader and spiritual guide. It should not be left to the arbitrary whims of an individual as it’s the current practice. For the last 175 years the succession has been monopolized within one family. The predecessor appoints either his brother or son as successor irrespective of his merits or qualifications to lead the community. By a right person I mean the most pious, most learned and the best qualified as per the qualifications criteria elaborated above.
How should it be determined that a person is the right person to lead the community and be its spiritual guide? I suggest that it should be left to the good sense of the community. Either through a direct referendum or an indirect process. The referendum can be supervised by an election commission similar to the Election Commission of India.

This Professor Poonawalla is the perfect example of an "intellectual" who apparently spends so much time in academia that he forgets what the real world is actually like. The Syedna should be chosen by a referendum? Performed by the flock? Which is overseen by a secular court likely composed of Hindus? Is this a joke???

If this "solution" does not directly and completely contradict everything Shiism/Ismailism/Dawoodi Bohrism is about, then what does? This is not an attempt to reform the Dawoodi Bohra faith, it is an attempt to destroy it.

Al-Zulfiqar wrote:

that is why i came back and many others keep raising their feeble voices against injustice, oppression, tyranny and deception. to pretend that it is making some huge dent in the kothari coffers would be a delusion, but i personally have witnessed atleast a dozen abdes slowly turning around and deserting this dastardly cult because of this forum.

shouldn't that constitute atleast some semblance of victory?

This shows that individual Bohras can be reformed. But the goal of the reformists was supposed to be the reformation of the faith itself. I maintain that that goal is as impossible as ever.

As for the issue whether Bohras are happy or unhappy, the answer is clearly yes to both. There is a large percentage who are happy with the status quo, and also a large percentage who are not. I don't claim to know what the exact percentages are (and Mr. Insaf should not have claimed he knew either with that useless internet survey). However, I do believe the percentage of Bohras satisfied with the Syedna is eventually going to increase, not decrease.

This is because the young Bohras who are unhappy (like myself at one point) will increasingly leave. The irreligious ones will marry Hindus or white people and the religious ones will join different Muslim sects. On this forum, people have repeatedly wondered why the abdes in the West seem more fanatic than those in India. It seems weird until you really think about it. In India, almost everyone stays for communal reasons. In America, it is much easier to slip away and merge into something else. And India is quickly becoming more and more like America. So this is yet another reason the reform movement can not succeed.

[Biradar]

Who is going to tell them the truth? Biradar and maethist? Of course not. They are themselves kafirs. They don't believe in jannah. So to expect them to participate in reforming bohras is foolishness.

So, here we go again. Al Shaik al-fazil, Imam Mullah Anajmi (PBUH, TUS, RA, SAW) has gone on his "KAFIR, KAFIR" rant again. Must be that Al Shaik al-fazil is a prophet himself, so confidently he goes around pronouncing fatwas of kufur on all and sundry. He is even greater than the Prophet himself, it seems, and must be receiving direct ilham from Allah on what is kufur and what is not.

But, as to the question of who can reform what. It does not matter what I believe or don't. The one thing we can be sure that Mullah Anajmi (PBUH, TUS, RA, SAW) is certainly not the one to do it. The reach of his poor addled brain does not extend beyond shouting KAFIR, KAFIR,. Poor guy. Feel so sad for him. But, to remind him:

"Withhold [your tongues] from those who say `There is no god but Allah' --- do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of `There is no god but Allah' as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself.'' (Tabarani, reported from Ibn Umar)

No point in engaging this mad mullah any more.

[zinger]

The survey was such a useless piece of junk, don't know why anybody even bothered to take it seriously.

If it such a useless piece of junk, then pray tell me, why did insaf saab even put it here? either he believes its not useless junk and thinks its of prime importance, or he put it up here for an ulterior motive, which i think he should clarify, but for which again, i wont hold my breath because i have known him to come, make some obscure post and then go away. i remember his one post about Bohra Islam being a sinking ship and inspite of pointedly asking him to reply to my questions, he never did

About Bohras being happy, you're right. They are enjoying their lives. Markaz, jaman, darees and what not. Members of other social clubs also enjoy their gatherings with similar abandon. As a social club Bohras have got it right. But don't you think when it comes to religion and exploitation in the name of religion things are not as hunky dory.

Yes, Dawoodi Bohras on the whole are a happy bunch and it is perhaps this happiness that rankles the reformists. When it comes to religion to, we have it right. but yes, when it comes to being exploited, there is no denying it

Or are you, along with matheist, prepared to condone the worship of Dai as God? Or you accept haqniwat's claim that the Dai is the centre of Bohra universe? The fact of the matter is that, the majority of Bohras care two hoots about religion. They are ignorant and they don't care. They will accept anything myth doled out to them so long as they can have their happy social life.

again, strangely enough, the fact that the Dai is worshipped like God is felt only over here. All Dawoodi Bohras know that Allah is Allah and Dai is Dai. it is only the reformists who want to keep harping on this point that we 'worship' the Dai. folding hands in front of him is out of respect and love. if you want to compare that to folding hands in front of an idol, then too bad, thats your problem

I see a lot of ridiculous calls to have Sunni mufti's or the thug Saudis to get involved, declare Bohra's non-Muslims etc.

Really? How many times has these calls have been raised? Have reformists ever raised it? Are you going to use this obscure and isolated instance to attack the legitimate opposition to the clergy?

Really, i have personally seen 3 calls in the recent past. true islam/truth seeker, JC and Nafisa. Did any of you charlies even raise a peep???? i think not. it was chocoman and i who made the maximum noise about it. your silence was clearly an acceptance of what they were proposing

You say you have seen the life and behaviour of Bohras and are quite satisfied with what you see. Have you lately seen the life and behaviour of the Dai, the clergy and their royal family? Are you satisfied with what you see? Or like matheist want to leave them to their own devices, and accept whatever they do in the name of Shia Islam and Bohra belief?

no we are not happy, they are living a life of luxury while we are funding it. but for every 10 Dawoodi Bohra who decides to stop funding their lifestlye, there is 1 who will only increase his/her contribution to keep them happy

I know everybody's hackles rise when Wahabis and the like attack Bohras as kaafirs, but in all sincerity can you blame them? It is Bohras who by their behaviour invite the charge, expose themselves to ridicule. If those Bohras and reformist who are critical of the clergy are "self-haters" then so be it. You too were once such a "self-hater", what happened? Or do you hate Wahabis so much that you are driven to defend the corrupt Taliban-like Bohra clergy? Sad, really.

no, we cant blame them because they are taught to hate everything that does not fit with their view of islam. we cant blame them but they can be curtailed. i have raised this point so many times. why are non-bohras/anti-bohras/anti-shias allowed to post here? what is the arrangement that Admin has with them? if i could, i would file an RTI because under the guise of democracy, admin is allowing them a free run here. but this is a different topic.

[Deerseye]

Friends,
The above discussion set my thoughts into motion, and I wondered exactly what makes common bohra so happy go lucky and disassociated from reality.
1) continuous and unhindered supply of tasty food.
(They don't care much about health n hygiene)
2)whenever they face any calamity or problem in life they don't have to worry or take any decision.
Just one fax to mola n viola all answers supplied.
3) birth in family, no need to decide name, mola si mangavilo.
4) death in family, no problem, masjid ma contact kari lo.
5) shadi karvi che no problem, mola Ne bachao nu photo moklo, puchavilo
Sagai toote, talak Thai , no problem. Mola in marzi.
6) children in 12th. Ask mola kayu subject laieye.
NOW WHERE DO YOU NEED ALLAH or KHUDA or GOD. Or QURAN.
These people have created a cosy bubble.
Reform can happen only if bubble is bursted

[Ozdundee]

Bubble will inflate further before it bursts ! Sometimes it will not burst it will keep growing

[anajmi]

Who is going to tell them the truth? Biradar and maethist? Of course not. They are themselves kafirs. They don't believe in jannah. So to expect them to participate in reforming bohras is foolishness.

"Withhold [your tongues] from those who say `There is no god but Allah' --- do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of `There is no god but Allah' as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself.'' (Tabarani, reported from Ibn Umar)

Fortunately for me, neither you nor maethist say "There is no god but Allah". Do you?

[alam]

There are two sets of people over here. One that wants to free the bohras from the tyranny of the Dai. And one that doesn't really care. Now, the bohras themselves are unaware of the fact that they are being lied to. Tell them the truth. Tell them that the Dai isn't going to get them to jannah. Who is going to tell them the truth? Biradar and maethist? Of course not. They are themselves kafirs. They don't believe in jannah. So to expect them to participate in reforming bohras is foolishness. The only ones who care are the ones that believe in jannah and know that the Dai isn't going to get them there. So, if the bohras have any hope of being free of this slavery to a corrupt human, that hope is going come from people like me who believe in jannah and know that the bohras aren't going to get there thanks to their Dai.

Dream on brother.

[haqniwaat]

Mr. Anajmi, what you fail to understand is that the bohra faith began because Hurratul Maleka was instruced by the 20th Imam to create the first Da'i and from then on, instead of having the world revolve around the Imam, the faithful revolve around the Da'i. Without the Da'i, there is no bohra faith. You might as well join some other group.

[maethist]

So, if the bohras have any hope of being free of this slavery to a corrupt human, that hope is going come from people like me who believe in jannah and know that the bohras aren't going to get there thanks to their Dai.

Hope is going to come from this egotistical, fanatical bigot and his friend, a self-hating Bohra hypocrite, Humsafar, who instructed me to discuss Bohra belief and then singularly avoided the subject of Walayat, a fundamental Bohra belief.

[Biradar]

Mr. Anajmi, what you fail to understand is that the bohra faith began because Hurratul Maleka was instruced by the 20th Imam to create the first Da'i and from then on, instead of having the world revolve around the Imam, the faithful revolve around the Da'i. Without the Da'i, there is no bohra faith. You might as well join some other group.

My friend haqniwaat: you have not been long on this forum. So you are saying things like this. Mullah Anajmi (LA) has been on this board for 15 years, even before it went to this BB format. I have followed his antics for a long time. He is a not a bohra! He rejects everything the bohras stand for. His only goal is to subvert the Bohras, destroy them. Of course, the poor fool won't achieve much, but he has been here for 15 years, spouting his anti-Bohra and anti-Shia humbug. At one point, he was even banned from posting here, and people, some of who even opposed him, had to put in a good word with the Admin to re-instate him. He was allowed back, beaten like a cur, after he promised to behave himself. Best is not to engage him, except to ridicule his stupid stone-age ideas.

Of course, the damage he has done is real: he has hounded out, by his gutter like language people who really want reform, those who want to express ideas and vent frustration. So, as a group, we should allow him to spout his garbage (doing otherwise would be against the spirit of this forum), but just laugh at his stupidity and keep in mind that he is like a snake, ready to sink his poisonous fangs into unaware folks.

[maethist]

I have edited this post out. It was unworthy of me. Thanks Birader for pointing that out

[Biradar]

So, if the bohras have any hope of being free of this slavery to a corrupt human, that hope is going come from people like me who believe in jannah and know that the bohras aren't going to get there thanks to their Dai.

Hope is going to come from this egotistical, fanatical bigot and his friend a self-hating Bohra hypocrite, Humsafar, who instructed me to discuss Bohra belief and then singularly avoided the subject of Walayat, a fundamental Bohra belief.

maethist, please contribute what you can to this forum. Don't get discouraged by Mullah Anajmi (LA) who has been poisoning the air for a long, long time. And, don't read too much into Humsafar's criticism. I have also followed his writing for a long time, and he probably got annoyed as it appeared to many that you seemed to not think much of corruption among the bohra clergy. I myself do participate only once in a while, but I do like reading what people like you write. At least you know more that one word, "KAFIR", and write well and intelligently.

[Biradar]

Fortunately for me, neither you nor maethist say "There is no god but Allah". Do you?

A meaningless slogan for Muslims only. There is no proof of God or of Allah. They are Arab myths.

Perhaps these are only Arab myths. Perhaps not. However, the basic belief of most people here is in the existence of god. It does not do any good for the reception of your other points if you come here as a militant atheist. Now, I am not the one to convince or argue with you about existence of god. But this is a Bohra forum. Bohras are religious (perhaps naive about certain beliefs) but lets not go back to such basics! Lets stick with secular reform, and see how we can convince our brothers and sisters to break their bondage to the clergy, and live a happy and fulfilled life outside the control of these parasites.

(Incidentally, I think part of reform is religious. But not so much that we just drive Allah out of the equation! Lets talk about books, philosophy, history and beliefs and how they have evolved among the Bohras. Best to leave "Big Questions" for another time. Just my view, you are free to differ, of course).

[maethist]

maethist, ..... At least you know more that one word, "KAFIR", and write well and intelligently.

Thank you even though I detect a bit of sarcasm, a nice back-handed compliment.

I am out of here except occasionally to poke a fun-inspired nudge against the resident bigot and his self-hating Bohra supporters.

As to my outburst re atheism, I agree that that was not called for. I will not again make that error on this forum, if ever I contribute. Thanks.

[anajmi]

Aww!! Get a room you two.

By the way since when did you start thinking about convincing your brothers and sisters of breaking their bondage with the clergy? Oh since 15 minutes ago. No longer enjoying getting rapped? Chalo, der aaye durust aaye!!

[anajmi]

Without the Da'i, there is no bohra faith. You might as well join some other group.

You are right. There is no bohra faith without the Dai. The Dai is at the center of this problem. Without the Dai, we go back to the Islamic faith. With the Dai we are in this rut of bending backs and folded hands. No wonder the Imam isn't coming out of hiding!!

[truth seeker100]

[quote="zinger"]When it comes to religion to, we have it right.
keep telling yourself that

[truth seeker100]

Mr. Anajmi, what you fail to understand is that the bohra faith began because Hurratul Maleka was instruced by the 20th Imam to create the first Da'i and from then on, instead of having the world revolve around the Imam, the faithful revolve around the Da'i. Without the Da'i, there is no bohra faith. You might as well join some other group.

wow!!! that could have won the best story award!!! good job

[Biradar]

Mr. Anajmi, what you fail to understand is that the bohra faith began because Hurratul Maleka was instruced by the 20th Imam to create the first Da'i and from then on, instead of having the world revolve around the Imam, the faithful revolve around the Da'i. Without the Da'i, there is no bohra faith. You might as well join some other group.

wow!!! that could have won the best story award!!! good job

[Critical_Thinker]

A very interesting thread. Started off as usual with verbal abuse and the spreading of hatred, but then matured in to an enlightening discussion towards the end.
Its good to see intelligent people on this forum instead of just the usual non-stop posting mediocrities with delusions of grandeur.

About your observation of this web site not attracting others, you are so of the rocker, this website has been visited by many and unfortunately because of the fear by the Established Masters and their fear mongering, many are silent sheeps who would prefer to be sacrificial lambs rather then Revolutionary leaders, yourself included..
Please let us know what contribution have you made to betterment of the community or this forum other than verbal diarrhea...

Its obvious that this forum only has a tiny following, and the reason for this is not due to fear, how could it be when we are all anonymous here.
You criticise others for being fearful instead of revolutionary leaders, so what fearless and revolutionary contributions have you made so far?

[kimanumanu]

Its obvious that this forum only has a tiny following, and the reason for this is not due to fear, how could it be when we are all anonymous here.

Why are you here? If you are a practicing Bohra then you will clearly know what Kothar thinks of these sites and the message that gets drummed into people to avoid such websites. I distinctly remember people having to renew their misaq for either listening to Taizoon's tapes or visiting his Zahir Batin website.

[SBM]

how could it be when we are all anonymous here.

Good question, why are you, my initials does represent my real name and many members are aware of it.
You being defender of Kothari Goons should not worry about any retribution while many from the other side of fold are afraid of retribution to their loved ones and many on this forum have suffered it and that is why they are anonymous.

[Critical_Thinker]

Its obvious that this forum only has a tiny following, and the reason for this is not due to fear, how could it be when we are all anonymous here.

Why are you here? If you are a practicing Bohra then you will clearly know what Kothar thinks of these sites and the message that gets drummed into people to avoid such websites. I distinctly remember people having to renew their misaq for either listening to Taizoon's tapes or visiting his Zahir Batin website.

I joined to learn more about SKQ and perhaps have an intelligent conversation with a few of the better members here.
My traditional relatives have never heard anything about avoiding this website or anything like that.