In defence of the Silent Majority

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#31

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:29 am

Munira_RV wrote: Imam Ali Zainul Abideen, Imam Baqir, Imam Sadiq, Imam Ismail, Imam Mohamed bin Ismail, Imam Abdullah, Imam Ahmed and Imam Hussain al Mastoor - time was not appropriate they remained concealed, though they did their work silently like writing dua's, marsiya's, etc..
Imam Zainul Abideen to Imam Mohamed bin ismalil Imams were in concealement / hiddern / seclusion ?? in my information, they were not concealed or hiding ! please correct me if I am wrong.

The Mastoor Imams were in seclusion for around 200 years and succeeding Imam Mahdi declared himself in Ifriqya during the times of Dai Abdullah Shi ( please correct me wherever wrong), wherein the Imam Mehdi announced to kill Dai Abdullah Shi !
Munira_RV wrote:Next when time will become appropriate the Imam of that time will appear and fix all zaalims. Inshallah.
Looks like history may repeat itself !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Munira_RV wrote: All children's of the region were killed by Firaun. Why the messenger of Allah, Moosa a.s. has not stopped him and let the 'zulm' happened in his very presence? The height is for four decades (forty years) he served Firaun! Firaun claim was, "I am God", messenger of Allah, Moosa was serving to this zaalim! Remember Kufr is bigger zulm than any other form of zulm. So why Moosa remained hidden?!!! ..
Musa was a child who was bought up in feron’s household. However once revelation of his prophecy was known to him, he fought with feron and completed his duties as instructed by allah. What part of Prophet Moosa’s life was hidden knowing his duties and responsibilities as prophet ?

There is a difference between keeping quiet to respond at a better time and to remain hidden altogether for centuries in a given position of faith and action. There is a disconnect in your comparisons
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Munira_RV wrote: Several similar analogies can be quoted like above. The answer to above is: Time appropriateness..
More than 800 years for time appropriateness !! wow !! that is some confidence ! we can discuss endlessly why did Imam Ali or Prophet Musa or Imam Hassan or any other Imam chose to remain discreet and waited for which time they thought to be appropriate. Another point would be, time appropriateness shall be Allah’s will. So Hidden Imam will do zuhoor when Allah wills it. No question asked, take it as a belief, because beyond this statement, there is no argument, no debate. Because if someone insists on sub-theory of Time Appropriateness , they will be labeled non bohra.

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#32

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:45 am

Help will surely be given to those who sincerely inquire and are willing to learn. Asking questions is must for learning and evolving.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#33

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:55 am

zinger wrote:FROM THE OBVIOUS TO THE NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, THEY ARE ALL BEING MOCKED. I WILL…….., THERE ARE CERTAIN ARTICLES OF FAITH THAT ONE HAS TO ACCEPT AS A GIVEN.
Please list some of them down.
zinger wrote:THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS DISCUSSIONS ON IT. IF YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE IT OR NOT ACCEPT IT, THEN IT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE. .
The discussion are concluded on abusive retorts with “take-it-or-leave-it”. Believe it because we says so attitude ! those conclusions are emotional rather then logical / rational or even slightly common sensical.
zinger wrote:CAN YOU PROVE 100% THAT THE IMAM IS NOT IN HIDING FOR POLITICAL REASONS????.
Your statements are amusing ! read my lines,

I did mention that 21st Imam’s or those 3 particular Mastoor Imam’s seclusion WAS due to political reasons or political threat in that particular era/time where Fatimid Imam-kings were under persecution by abbasid empire assasins. A very particular reasoning pertaining to a particular person at particular era/age/time. Going into hiding ; a case of action and reaction in a given circumstances.
zinger wrote: I BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR POLITICAL REASONS GIVEN THE MASSACRE SUNNI MUSLIMS ARE DOING OF SHIA MUSLIMS. NOW IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, PLEASE DO SHARE WHAT YOU THINK YOUR REASONS FOR THIS ARE.
Accordinging to your statements : For last 800 years up till now, the political threats hangs loose on Hidden Imam’s head, however there are millions of Shiaas and pristine abde going about living their shia life, making grand musoleums, street maatam and freedom of expressing their love and affection of ahle-bayt. Yet the “political threat” is reserved for Hidden Imam, compelling him to remain hidden, wherein he has couple of Shia nations and most of all, the all-powerful-bohra-dai and extremely devoted pristine abde followers who are ready to offer their skins to make shoes for their leaders who will come forefront to protect the Imam from any such political threat.
zinger wrote: THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED THREADBARE BUT YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT. I REALLY DO NOT WISH TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH YOU BECAUSE ………………..B) YOU HAVE TIME AND AGAIN CHOSEN TO IGNORE THE PROOF PUT BEFORE YOU
I appreciate your respect and thank you for it.

I have not ignored any proofs, and only presented my counter views on points which are not justified. I remain open to be corrected / convinced and criticized for my POVs

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#34

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:18 am

maethist wrote:You have correctly stated that I lifted the term self-hating Jew and used it here because I thought it similarly applies to Bohra participants on this forum who hate themselves for being forced, for whatever reason, to be participants in community functions..
There are several aspects of bohra life, practices, rituals which are deliberately changed by recent royal family. Bohras don’t hate being bohras, but hate the compulsions which are aggressively drilled down through systematic coercion and intimidation.

Majority of bohras; either don’t know the real bohra beleifs or don’t care to know , as they are happy with social framework and fence they find their affiliation and life secured in. For free-thinking bohras, they can see the treachery through these compulsions and resist / rebel against oppression.

You have lifted and thrown the word “self-hating-bohras” in a jiffy without giving it a due thought which is expressed in your reasoning !

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#35

Unread post by SBM » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:39 am

Zinger
CAN YOU PROVE 100% THAT THE IMAM IS NOT IN HIDING FOR POLITICAL REASONS???? I BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR POLITICAL REASONS GIVEN THE MASSACRE SUNNI MUSLIMS ARE DOING OF SHIA MUSLIMS. NOW IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, PLEASE DO SHARE WHAT YOU THINK YOUR REASONS FOR THIS ARE
Well Imam can be safe in IRAN, a shia power with Nukes. I am sure Iranians will give their life to protect the life of the Imam. So this argument that Imam's life is danger does not hold too much water given the Geo Political landscape.
Let us look at this way. Narendra Modi after Gujarat Riots had more on his life from Extremists but still Syedna was felicitating without fear on his life and here we are talking about an Imam, every SHIA in the world will give his life to safe guard him

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#36

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:23 am

SBM wrote: Well Imam can be safe in IRAN, a shia power with Nukes. I am sure Iranians will give their life to protect the life of the Imam. So this argument that Imam's life is danger does not hold too much water given the Geo Political landscape.
Let us look at this way. Narendra Modi after Gujarat Riots had more on his life from Extremists but still Syedna was felicitating without fear on his life and here we are talking about an Imam, every SHIA in the world will give his life to safe guard him
Hello SBM bhai,

Life threatening excuse is tendered only by Ithna Asheri Shias for their Imam. Fatimi Dawat do not cite this reason for concealment of their current Imam.

To begin with, when Ithna Asheri or Nizari Imams were perceived to begin hiding they do not have any sultanate to take refuge. Where else Imam Tayyeb a.s. at time of concealing had a strong sultanate in Yemen, which could not be won by Salahdin (L) or others. So the case of Ismailies seems to be genuine.

The macro reasons for Imam being in concealment is: the cyclical effect.

What you need Imam for in your case? Guidance. Read their books or inquire from someone who know, you will get the answers.

Sura Nisa:113 says, Mohamed PBUH knew all faculties of knowledge. Mola Ali a.s. claimed ask me what ever you wish to learn before I pass away from you. Fatimi Imams are sons in progeny of Mohamed PBUH and Ali a.s. - they are masters of all knowledge, except those that are prerogative of Allah alone. So people can misuse the situation by exploiting the answers they are unable to find for their mischievous thought like developing weapons in disguise. These things can make paradigm bad-changes to people in general. To save from such abuse they are accessible to their missionaries only and to people in general till the time become appropriate. We have 53,000 + 3,000 + 7,000 years cycle. Before the 8000 year the Qayamat will come, exact date and time we do not know. We are currently at the tail end of that 7,000th year cycle, now, if I am not mistaken then from Aadam till date 7400-7600 years have passed, when Qayamat will come we do not know, but it will come before the 8,000th year happens. Auliya's have given signs for Qayamat, many of them are currently visible but were not few decades back. Due to cyclical effect - Imams remains in zuhoor or in state of concealment. But in either case they do their work through their missionaries or by self.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#37

Unread post by SBM » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:45 am

Thank you Sis Munira for your explanation.
My posting was in reply to Br Zinger and others who always keep on saying that Imam is in hiding due to safety reasons on his life

Munira_RV
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#38

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:55 am

SBM wrote:Thank you Sis Munira for your explanation.
My posting was in reply to Br Zinger and others who always keep on saying that Imam is in hiding due to safety reasons on his life
U r welcome.

I like to share following point, Ithna Asheri contends their Imam is hiding because of life threat: They strongly contend their 12th Imam will fight Dajjal, Isa will join him, bring piece and justice to world, etc, etc. Till he does all these task he cannot die so there cannot be any threat to his life now, for past 1200 years since he is hiding or in future till above all task gets complete.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#39

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:02 am

maethist wrote: Humsafar,
This is addresses specifically to you....
Since you are not against Bohra beliefs, what is your response to anajmi's charge that Bohras are kafirs?
I'm glad you raised that question. Please see the context in which the charge of kufr was made. Haqniwat claimed, The Dawoodi Bohra faith revolves around the Dai and he is the center of the universe per the faith itself. This is not a Bohra belief. Bohra faith does not revolve around the Dai and he certainly is not the centre of the universe. In scripture and in tradition there is no justification for making such a bald-faced, stupendous claim. It flies in the face of the fundamental Islamic concept of Tawheed. What do you expect when thinking Bohras and non-Bohras hear this? Accept this as a some cute quirk of Bohra faith? No, they won't. They would rightly condemn it as kufr. And it is not Bohra beliefs they are condemning. They are condemning the distortion of those beliefs, and they are condemning the people who perpetrate it and the people who accept it. In other words, they are calling the clergy and the abdes as kaafirs.

And for a moment just forget about faith and beliefs of bohras, just look at their actions. Look at the open and shameless worship of the Dai and the royal family? The cult of the Dai has been deliberately cultivated over the past three generations so much so that the primacy of the Quran, Mohammed, Ahl al Bayt and the Imam has been erased from the Bohra psyche. And as claimed, the Dai has been grafted at the centre of their universe. So, if it comes down to it, the current Dawat and its abdes are not only kaafirs but are also guilty of disgracing the memory and the status of the Prophet, the Ahl al Bayt and the Imam.

We have to understand that the current Dawat does not represent Bohra beliefs. When they act in kufr they will be called kaafirs. Kufr in the Quranic sense means denial of Truth, and kaafir are those who deny the Truth. The tragedy is that the Bohra clergy does not just deny the Higher Truth but also violates the common moral truths of honesty, integrity, compassion and justice. In other words, it is kaafir at many levels.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#40

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:05 pm

humanbeing wrote: Bohras don’t hate being bohras, but hate the compulsions which are aggressively drilled down through systematic coercion and intimidation.

Majority of bohras; either don’t know the real bohra beleifs or don’t care to know , as they are happy with social framework and fence they find their affiliation and life secured in. For free-thinking bohras, they can see the treachery through these compulsions and resist / rebel against oppression.

You have lifted and thrown the word “self-hating-bohras” in a jiffy without giving it a due thought which is expressed in your reasoning !
I have restricted the term self-hating Bohra only to participants on this forum, not to all Bohras. I have also made exceptions for participants like SBM who claim to have taken themselves out of being a part of the community.

Let me repeat my statement to which you are responding.
maethist wrote:You have correctly stated that I lifted the term self-hating Jew and used it here because I thought it similarly applies to Bohra participants on this forum who hate themselves for being forced, for whatever reason, to be participants in community functions..
If you insist that all abdes are Kafirs like anajmi claims and Humsafar apparently agrees and yet you participate in the community, then you re a self-hating Bohra.

(I have yet to read Humsafar's response completely).

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#41

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:49 pm

Humsafar,

I like your response and, if the majority of participants here agree with you and anajmi here then this site is no different from many Wahabi sites whose focus is to attack all Shia, and not just Bohras and term them kafirs.

I do not expect swelling in participation from among Bohras on this site except from self-hating Bohras. You can all entertain yourselves by bleating about kufr of Bohras until your throats become sore. I do not expect any effect on Bohras anytime soon.

If you believe, like anajmi, that you are all knowledgeable and all righteous and you are doing God's work in condemning Bohras as your life's work, then you have a mind set of Spanish Inquisition.

As far as I am concerned, I have no objection to Bohras being Kafirs, according to your understanding, and at the same time calling themselves Muslims. I will not join you in bleating against them and I see no reason for doing that.

As far as religious and financial corruption is concerned you will find that it is endemic in all religious organizations, Muslim and non-Muslim and you are going to have to deal with it on case by case basis as in all civil wrong-doings.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#42

Unread post by SBM » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:59 pm

Maethist
A simple question, you are self confessed Aethist so why so much concern about Dawoodi Bohras and Shias only.. :(

abde53
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#43

Unread post by abde53 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:13 pm

SBM wrote:Maethist
A simple question, you are self confessed Aethist so why so much concern about Dawoodi Bohras and Shias only.. :(
Because he is self hating atheist :D

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#44

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:25 pm

As far as religious and financial corruption is concerned you will find that it is endemic in all religious organizations, Muslim and non-Muslim and you are going to have to deal with it on case by case basis as in all civil wrong-doings.
And the corruption within the bohra community is the first case. We need to get to the bottom of this corruption. Why is there so much corruption? Because the Dai has projected himself as the center of the universe. Currently, the bohras have been led to believe that Islam teaches that the Dai is the center of the universe. We need to explain to the bohras that believing this is shirk and insisting on it might lead to kufr. That is one way of reforming the bohras. Once bohras realize that the Dai is taking them for a ride, and leading them away from the religion that they love, they will stop feeding the corruption with their hard earned money.

People who have no problems with bohras being kafir are actually facilitating the corrupt practices of the Dai.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#45

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:36 pm

And how much have you succeeded in reducing corruption and making 'true Muslims' out of Bohras (I mean all 100% of them) by dumping your shit for 14 years on self-hating Bohras who frequent this forum ?

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#46

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:02 pm

Not much. But maybe that is because I don't shit enough on people like you eh? :wink:

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#47

Unread post by think » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:10 pm

In which bohra belief does it state that bohra mumins should be bullied by the kothar to the extent that if they are not bullied they think something is missing in their lives. It is hard to turn such souls around to see the light of what Allah offers them and what was the essence of the struggle of all nabi's.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#48

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:24 pm

maethist wrote:Humsafar,

I like your response and, if the majority of participants here agree with you and anajmi here then this site is no different from many Wahabi sites whose focus is to attack all Shia, and not just Bohras and term them kafirs.
Mr. atheist, you are daft and devious at the same time. In what manner have I attacked all Shia or their beliefs? Can you get your confused head around to understand that the current beliefs and practice of Borhas and abdes cannot be justified - by any stretch of doctrinal gymnastics - as shia faith or even Bohra faith. You must be willfully blind to accept the shenanigans of the Bohra clergy as true Bohra beliefs. If the concern for Bohra and Shia beliefs so moves you then let's examine them in the light of scripture, history and tradition. It is a sign of a lazy mind to issue blanket statements like "attack on all shias". As humanbeing above said, let's first determine what "Bohra beliefs" are then see who is not being true to them.
I do not expect swelling in participation from among Bohras on this site except from self-hating Bohras. You can all entertain yourselves by bleating about kufr of Bohras until your throats become sore. I do not expect any effect on Bohras anytime soon.
There was no swelling in participation for Imam Hussain's cause either, so let's not judge anything by mere numbers. You're right, it won't have effect on Bohras anytime soon, and the reason is not that we are wrong or because we are bleating (as you so colourfully describe) but because Bohras have been hard done by, have been dumbed down to a degree where they have come to accept the Dai as God.
If you believe, like anajmi, that you are all knowledgeable and all righteous and you are doing God's work in condemning Bohras as your life's work, then you have a mind set of Spanish Inquisition.
Here again, your penchant for blaming the victim. You've turned the Spanish Inquisition on it's head. It's this ruthless clergy that goes after you when you go against it. Bohra history is replete with instances of Inquisition-like hounding and harassment of people who stand up to the clergy. The abuse, condemnation and even violence flows freely from high on. Attacks on Noman Contractor, Asghar Ali Engineer, Saifuddin Insaf and on countless other common Bohras is a case in point. The Bohra priests are the perpetrators of Inquisition, not the other way round. You do not only have the wrong understanding of history, but are also on the wrong side of history.
As far as I am concerned, I have no objection to Bohras being Kafirs, according to your understanding, and at the same time calling themselves Muslims. I will not join you in bleating against them and I see no reason for doing that.
Actually, their being kaafirs doesn't bother me that much either or reformists in general. My comment was in response to your specific question. But if Bohras know their real beliefs and history and are sincere about their faith - the basis of which is Islam - then they can't escape the question of kufr. Our, that is reformists', bleating is not so much against kufr but against financial corruption, and how that corruption is being propped up by perverting Bohra beliefs.
As far as religious and financial corruption is concerned you will find that it is endemic in all religious organizations, Muslim and non-Muslim and you are going to have to deal with it on case by case basis as in all civil wrong-doings.
Wow, endemic in all religious orgnaisations? What a cop-out! I don't know about other organisations, but I do know that financial corruption of the Bohra clergy is justified and sustained by falsifying Bohra beliefs - the beliefs which you are so ardently but so confusedly trying to defend. Can't you make a connection between the financial corruption and the doctrinal corruption? Obviously you can't, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It's obvious you don't like Wahabis, and I'm with you on that. But it is disingenuous and devious of you label any criticism of Bohra clergy as coming from Wahabi ranks or from your Israeli-inspired "self-hating bohras". Reformists' have been challenging the corrupt clergy long before the word Wahabi became fashionable. You are against financial corruption, which is great, but when we tell you who are the corrupt and why, you call us names. What kind of dithering, wishy-washy attitude is that. Either take a stand or get out of the way. For a moment consider the possibility that criticism of the clergy can come from the standpoint of genuine concern and awareness which is neither wahabi or self-hating. There is space for critical thinking outside the categories which your received wisdom has formed in your mind. That is a true liberal, enlightened approach.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#49

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:25 pm

anajmi wrote:Not much. But maybe that is because I don't shit enough on people like you eh? :wink:
You want to shit on atheism? Go ahead, be my guest. Make me a 'true Muslim'.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:36 pm

It would be your job to clean up and become one!!

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#51

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:50 pm

In the caliphate of Hz. 3rd sahib, his relatives were handpicked and posted as officers (aamils) in various plush cities. They went tyrannical - looted the commoner and rapped their women folks! Unfortunately Hz. 3rd instead of punishing guilty kept his eyes closed on all complaints!!! Why Mola Ali a.s., the mustakar Imam of his time remained concealed at large and didn't took action against Hz. 3rd sahib?
This is so much hogwash, I do not even know where to begin. This is like saying that the reason the Saudi royals haven't spoken up against the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinians is because they are following the example of Imam Ali and are remaining concealed!!! What a load of bul!!
Remember Kufr is bigger zulm than any other form of zulm.
An ayah from Suran Luqman

وَإِذْ قَالَ لُقْمَانُ لِابْنِهِ وَهُوَ يَعِظُهُ يَا بُنَيَّ لَا تُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ إِنَّ الشِّرْكَ لَظُلْمٌ عَظِيمٌ 31:13

Shirk is Zulmun Azeem.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:13 pm

My neighbor is burning down my other neighbor's house. Everyone who is silently watching and doing nothing are all Imams in concealment!!

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#53

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:54 pm

Humsafar wrote:
maethist wrote:Humsafar,

I like your response and, if the majority of participants here agree with you and anajmi here then this site is no different from many Wahabi sites whose focus is to attack all Shia, and not just Bohras and term them kafirs.
Mr. atheist, you are daft and devious at the same time. In what manner have I attacked all Shia or their beliefs? Can you get your confused head around to understand that the current beliefs and practice of Borhas and abdes cannot be justified - by any stretch of doctrinal gymnastics - as shia faith or even Bohra faith. You must be willfully blind to accept the shenanigans of the Bohra clergy as true Bohra beliefs. If the concern for Bohra and Shia beliefs so moves you then let's examine them in the light of scripture, history and tradition. It is a sign of a lazy mind to issue blanket statements like "attack on all shias". As humanbeing above said, let's first determine what "Bohra beliefs" are then see who is not being true to them.

All-knowing all-righteous anajmi says that Bohra faith and Shia faith do not deserve being called Islamic and you say that abdes do not deserve being called Bohras or Shia. Anajmi calls them Kafirs and you agree with him. You say your heart bleeds for them because you believe that they are down-trodden and are at mercy of a vile and corrupt Dai.

Well, I have experienced the adulation that these Kafirs proffered the Dai in several cities and adulation was authentic and outpouring of ‘love’ for the Dai was displayed in a fashion that to me seemed gross to the point of embarrassment. But Kafirs clearly reveled in it. My experience is that Kafirs love being Kafirs.

That brings me to Kafir’s belief in Walayat as foundation of their faith. Walayat implies unshakeable loyalty to Imam or Dai. His word is Law.

As a non-Kafir Bohra, what is your understanding of Walayat? Does that form foundation of your Bohra faith?

I personally do not care for that belief. But then, I do not much care for any religious beliefs, based as they are on mythology. If I leave religious folk alone, they do not bother me but I consider that they have the right to practice their beliefs.

More responses later.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#54

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:24 pm

Also, I did not say that you attacked all Shia beliefs. I said that this site would become no different from sites that attack Shia beliefs, in this case Kafir beliefs. Just consider Walayat and outline the difference between Kafir's belief in it and yours, a genuine Bohra belief. Also please comment on why anajmi would not call your belief in Walayat non-Islamic and why you would consider it Islamic.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#55

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:30 pm

Walayat implies unshakeable loyalty to Imam or Dai. His word is Law.
I have been memorizing Surah Kahf (18) for the last few days. Today I reached ayah number 26. Check it out.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#56

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:56 pm

anajmi wrote:
Walayat implies unshakeable loyalty to Imam or Dai. His word is Law.
I have been memorizing Surah Kahf (18) for the last few days. Today I reached ayah number 26. Check it out.

Next time you are brought before a US court judge, you can quote him Surah Kahf (18), ayat 26. Tell him he is not competent to judge as Judgment belongs to Allah alone. :roll:
Last edited by maethist on Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#57

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:34 pm

Humsafar wrote:
I do not expect swelling in participation from among Bohras on this site except from self-hating Bohras. You can all entertain yourselves by bleating about kufr of Bohras until your throats become sore. I do not expect any effect on Bohras anytime soon.
There was no swelling in participation for Imam Hussain's cause either, so let's not judge anything by mere numbers. You're right, it won't have effect on Bohras anytime soon, and the reason is not that we are wrong or because we are bleating (as you so colourfully describe) but because Bohras have been hard done by, have been dumbed down to a degree where they have come to accept the Dai as God.
You may believe that ‘genuine Bohras’ like you have right on your side and abdes are Kafirs and proceed to tell them that they are Kafirs. They may consider it an insult and want nothing to do with you, even if, like anajmi, you feel you are telling them the truth that they Kafirs and that they should not feel bad about it.

Have you considered the possibility that they may be quite happy considering Dai as their God and being dumb (in your estimation)? Why should that shatter your peace? You will be able to continue using this site to insult them and attract loads of self-hating Bohras, oops, Kafirs. That will not swell number of Kafirs coming to this site but, boy, you will have Right on your side!

Personally, I have no objection to Kafirs considering the Dai as their God. Their right to do so is safe here in the United States.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#58

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:42 pm

Next time you are brought before a US court judge, you can quote him ayat Surah Kahf (18), ayat 26. Tell him he is not competent to judge as Judgment belongs to Allah alone. :roll:
huh??? And what will the bohras do? Tell him he is not competent to judge as judgment belongs to the hidden Imam and the Dai? It wasn't that hard of a slap for you to completely loose your marbles was it?

For those who aren't as stupid as you are, the ayah proves that walayat is not a pillar of Islam and Allah does not take partners in His law. For those who believe otherwise, they are either kafir or mushrik!!

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#59

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:49 pm

I want to clarify that I am calling followers of Sayedna Kafirs in line with the judgement from Al-Aleem, Al-Rasheed anajmi with vocal support from Humsafar.

I consider other participants here who do not object as lending tacit support to them and therefore are either genuine Bohras in Humsafar mold or are self-hating Kafirs.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#60

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:50 pm

By the way, the more you talk the more stupid you sound. Al-Stupid, Al-Ignorant maethist eh? :wink:

We know you have no problems with the bohras being kafirs. We have a problem with that and are trying to solve it. Do you have a problem with us trying to reform the bohras? If yes, why? Are we breaking any laws of the United States? No. Then, if you are ok with everyone doing what they are doing, as long as we are following the laws of the United States, just leave us be. Why do you want to shatter our peace? Let us do our reform work in peace by exposing people to the truth of them being kafir or mushrik. Infact, fighting against corruption is the duty of every citizen. Those who are ok with the status quo are actually harming the society.