In defence of the Silent Majority

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#61

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:56 pm

anajmi wrote:
Next time you are brought before a US court judge, you can quote him ayat Surah Kahf (18), ayat 26. Tell him he is not competent to judge as Judgment belongs to Allah alone. :roll:
huh??? And what will the bohras do? Tell him he is not competent to judge as judgment belongs to the hidden Imam and the Dai? It wasn't that hard of a slap for you to completely loose your marbles was it?

For those who aren't as stupid as you are, the ayah proves that walayat is not a pillar of Islam and Allah does not take partners in His law. For those who believe otherwise, they are either kafir or mushrik!!
It is not Bohras who quoted that ayat. Walayat is a pillar for Kafirs (Sayedna followers) and also for genuine Bohras like Humsafar, unless he denies it.

As you are all knowing and all righteous, you have the right to call me stupid and worse. You have already called me Kafir and you are welcome to award me similar plaudits ever more.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#62

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:01 am

anajmi wrote:By the way, the more you talk the more stupid you sound. Al-Stupid, Al-Ignorant maethist eh? :wink:

We know you have no problems with the bohras being kafirs. We have a problem with that and are trying to solve it. Do you have a problem with us trying to reform the bohras? If yes, why? Are we breaking any laws of the United States? No. Then, if you are ok with everyone doing what they are doing, as long as we are following the laws of the United States, just leave us be. Why do you want to shatter our peace? Let us do our reform work in peace by exposing people to the truth of them being kafir or mushrik. Infact, fighting against corruption is the duty of every citizen. Those who are ok with the status quo are actually harming the society.
It is not ok for me to shatter your peace but it is ok for you to shatter the peace of Kafirs. That is your idea of Justice, al-aleem, al-rasheed, as learned from Quran, of course.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#63

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:06 am

It is not Bohras who quoted that ayat.
I know that you moron. And the ayah doesn't talk about the hidden Imam and the Dai. You did. You claimed that "Walayat implies unshakeable loyalty to Imam or Dai. His word is Law. " So as per your brilliant deductions, that is what the bohra would say to the judge right?

Do you really have difficulty connecting one post of yours to the next?

I gave you an ayah to support my belief that Walayat is not a pillar of Islam from the Quran. Simple. You obviously have no answers for it. That is why you are jumping from pillar to post. Take a breath and realize that all your arguments have been successfully countered. Now, instead of saying the same thing over and over again like a broken record, learn something new and then come back!!
It is not ok for me to shatter your peace but it is ok for you to shatter the peace of Kafirs. That is your idea of Justice, al-aleem, al-rasheed, as learned from Quran, of course.
Correct. You want everyone to be at peace whether they are kafir or mumin. I want to reform people. That is how I find my peace. Now, will you let me be at peace?

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#64

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:12 am

anajmi wrote:
We know you have no problems with the bohras being kafirs. We have a problem with that and are trying to solve it. Do you have a problem with us trying to reform the bohras?
No. But have you considered being Kafirs may not be a problem for them? Have they invited you to solve their kafir-ness?

Of course, God has told you to do that. Doing God's work using a sledge-hammer of insults remotely served from the safety of computer screen should work wonders for your conceit and ego.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#65

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:14 am

anajmi wrote:
It is not Bohras who quoted that ayat.
I know that you moron. And the ayah doesn't talk about the hidden Imam and the Dai. You did. You claimed that "Walayat implies unshakeable loyalty to Imam or Dai. His word is Law. " So as per your brilliant deductions, that is what the bohra would say to the judge right?

Do you really have difficulty connecting one post of yours to the next?

I gave you an ayah to support my belief that Walayat is not a pillar of Islam from the Quran. Simple. You obviously have no answers for it. That is why you are jumping from pillar to post. Take a breath and realize that all your arguments have been successfully countered. Now, instead of saying the same thing over and over again like a broken record, learn something new and then come back!!
It is not ok for me to shatter your peace but it is ok for you to shatter the peace of Kafirs. That is your idea of Justice, al-aleem, al-rasheed, as learned from Quran, of course.
Correct. You want everyone to be at peace whether they are kafir or mumin. I want to reform people. That is how I find my peace. Now, will you let me be at peace?
Walayat implies unshakeable loyalty to Imam or Dai according to Sayedna followes, Kafirs, and genuine Bohras like Humsafar. I have already stated that I do not care for it much. Walayat is the pillar of their faith and it is taught as such to every Kafir and Bohra child.

I have already told Humsafar that you will not agree with his Walayat pillar and have asked him to comment on why he thinks it is foundation of his faith. You may not have read that. In that case review this moron's previous posting.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#66

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:22 am

There is a reason why the bohras and their kids are prevented from understanding the Quran. Walayat might be a part of the bohra faith, but it is not a part of Islam.

Here is the ayah in question.

قُلِ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا لَبِثُوا لَهُ غَيْبُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ أَبْصِرْ بِهِ وَأَسْمِعْ مَا لَهُم مِّن دُونِهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا يُشْرِكُ فِي حُكْمِهِ أَحَدًا 18:26

Allah is talking about the people of the cave. He says

مَا لَهُم مِّن دُونِهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ

They have no wali save Allah. Now this doesn't mean that there are no waliullahs. This simply means that human walayat is not a pillar of Islam as taught by the bohras. If it had been, then the people of the cave would also have needed a human wali. But Allah is clear over here. They had no wali except Allah.

and then He says

وَلَا يُشْرِكُ فِي حُكْمِهِ أَحَدًا

He accords no one a share in his Hukm.

If walayat were a pillar of Islam, it would be a part of the Quran. If it were a part of the Quran, then it would contradict with this ayah of the Quran and Allah says that there are no contradictions in the Quran. So, walayat cannot be a pillar of Islam. And then the other clarification that no one has a share in the laws of Allah. So, Islamically, no human's word can be considered law. If you do then you are a mushrik.
You may not have read that.
I did read it. You need to read it again yourself. I gave you the ayah in response to exactly that question about walayat being Islamic or not. But you turned out to be just another pig head!!
Last edited by anajmi on Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#67

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:26 am

Yes, tell that to Kafir followers of Sayedna and Bohras. It is not making much impression on me.

I have to go to bed now. I will continue this entertainment to-morrow. You will be relieved to know that I will end this entertainment after tomorrow as it takes up too much of my time and I cannot really justify it.
Last edited by maethist on Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#68

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:28 am

It is not making much imtression on me.
Duh!! Of course it isn't.

zinger
Posts: 1971
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#69

Unread post by zinger » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:55 am

humanbeing wrote:
zinger wrote:FROM THE OBVIOUS TO THE NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, THEY ARE ALL BEING MOCKED. I WILL…….., THERE ARE CERTAIN ARTICLES OF FAITH THAT ONE HAS TO ACCEPT AS A GIVEN.
Please list some of them down. - THE FACT THAT THE IMAM WILL TAKE YOU TO HEAVEN. THE FACT THAT THE IMAM IS ALWAYS PRESENT. THE FACT THAT THE DAI IS ACTING IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WISHES OF THE IMAM
zinger wrote:THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS DISCUSSIONS ON IT. IF YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE IT OR NOT ACCEPT IT, THEN IT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE. .
The discussion are concluded on abusive retorts with “take-it-or-leave-it”. Believe it because we says so attitude ! those conclusions are emotional rather then logical / rational or even slightly common sensical. YES I AGREE WITH YOU. THEY BECOME EMOTIONAL BECAUSE OF THE STAND THAT YOU TAKE. AND BY YOU, I DONT MEAN YOU PER SE, BUT IN GENERAL. ITS NOT EASY TO MAINTAIN A NEUTRAL STANCE WHEN YOUR CORE BELIEFS ARE BEING ABUSED
zinger wrote:CAN YOU PROVE 100% THAT THE IMAM IS NOT IN HIDING FOR POLITICAL REASONS????.
Your statements are amusing ! read my lines,

I did mention that 21st Imam’s or those 3 particular Mastoor Imam’s seclusion WAS due to political reasons or political threat in that particular era/time where Fatimid Imam-kings were under persecution by abbasid empire assasins. A very particular reasoning pertaining to a particular person at particular era/age/time. Going into hiding ; a case of action and reaction in a given circumstances.
zinger wrote: I BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR POLITICAL REASONS GIVEN THE MASSACRE SUNNI MUSLIMS ARE DOING OF SHIA MUSLIMS. NOW IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, PLEASE DO SHARE WHAT YOU THINK YOUR REASONS FOR THIS ARE.
Accordinging to your statements : For last 800 years up till now, the political threats hangs loose on Hidden Imam’s head, however there are millions of Shiaas and pristine abde going about living their shia life, making grand musoleums, street maatam and freedom of expressing their love and affection of ahle-bayt. Yet the “political threat” is reserved for Hidden Imam, compelling him to remain hidden, wherein he has couple of Shia nations and most of all, the all-powerful-bohra-dai and extremely devoted pristine abde followers who are ready to offer their skins to make shoes for their leaders who will come forefront to protect the Imam from any such political threat. SEE THIS IS THE KIND OF LANGUAGE THAT PUTS PEOPLE ON EDGE. YOU CANNOT USE SUCH SARCASTIC CYNICAL TONES AND EXPECT A CIVIL CONVERSATION. YOU DISH OUT GARBAGE, YOU GET GARBAGE BACK
zinger wrote: THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED THREADBARE BUT YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT. I REALLY DO NOT WISH TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH YOU BECAUSE ………………..B) YOU HAVE TIME AND AGAIN CHOSEN TO IGNORE THE PROOF PUT BEFORE YOU
I appreciate your respect and thank you for it.

I have not ignored any proofs, and only presented my counter views on points which are not justified. I remain open to be corrected / convinced and criticized for my POVs. NO HB, PROOF HAS BEEN SHARED ENOUGH AND MORE ON THIS FORUM BUT YOU STILL WANT TO ASK THE SAME QUESTIONS AGAIN AND AGAIN

zinger
Posts: 1971
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#70

Unread post by zinger » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:58 am

SBM wrote:Thank you Sis Munira for your explanation.
My posting was in reply to Br Zinger and others who always keep on saying that Imam is in hiding due to safety reasons on his life
let me correct you there. i dont always say it. this is maybe the second time only. i normally keep out of conversations like this because i accept im not learned enough to discuss them.
the only reason i did this time is because i had misunderstood the post HB made

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#71

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:08 am

Maethist !

What a twisted personality you are ! your opinions are devious, you keep chanting that you don’t care what bohra beliefs are. But please understand that, human worshipping of bohra dai is not a bohra belief. You surely would not have any problem with bohra dai being worshipped, so be it. They can call it “burhani belief” or “mufaddali belief” or “Taheri belief” or “ Qutbi Belief” any names as they like. But not bohra belief. Have you been a bohra or abde before in your life ?

I m of opinion that atheist are more researched about religions than blind followers. But you are disappointing with lack of common sense. You don’t believe in GOD, but ready to respect religious beliefs that cause oppression, corruption and power hungry diktators. How can you respect something that you do not accept in first place. It is far more easier and liberating to believe in ONE GOD then get yourself complicated in complex religious twisted mythical theories of religious godmen.

Your stand for freedom of practicing any belief is acceptable, but not at the cost of corrupting anothers.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#72

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:55 am

humanbeing wrote:Maethist !

What a twisted personality you are ! your opinions are devious, you keep chanting that you don’t care what bohra beliefs are. But please understand that, human worshipping of bohra dai is not a bohra belief. You surely would not have any problem with bohra dai being worshipped, so be it. They can call it “burhani belief” or “mufaddali belief” or “Taheri belief” or “ Qutbi Belief” any names as they like. But not bohra belief. Have you been a bohra or abde before in your life ?

I m of opinion that atheist are more researched about religions than blind followers. But you are disappointing with lack of common sense. You don’t believe in GOD, but ready to respect religious beliefs that cause oppression, corruption and power hungry diktators. How can you respect something that you do not accept in first place. It is far more easier and liberating to believe in ONE GOD then get yourself complicated in complex religious twisted mythical theories of religious godmen.

Your stand for freedom of practicing any belief is acceptable, but not at the cost of corrupting anothers.
Respect is perhaps a wrong word. More like, I tolerate it in the name of freedom of worship. I have already made distinction between Dai followers or Dai worshipers and genuine Bohras like Humsafar and perhaps you too. I call the former Kafirs in accordance with the greatest authority on Islam and Bohras, namely, al-aleem, al-rasheed anajmi and Humsafar, who supports him.

I am not personally disposed to be an atheist evangelist in Richard Dawkins mode otherwise I would be exposing corruption caused by all religions which have historically caused the greatest misery to human kind. Religions rely on sophisticated fairy tales to brainwash children in exclusivist methods. There is a lot to say in this regard but I do not have the time nor the inclination for it.

I have also made it clear that there is a minority of self-hating kafirs among Sayedna followers who might end up on this forum and join together to form a genuine Bohra brotherhood along with you and Humsafar. But the vast majority appear to be quite happy being kafirs even if they appear to you to be an oppressed lot. That is my observation.

If a kafir wants to abandon religion altogether, I would welcome him but if he wants to continue being a Kafir and you do not like it, you may try to persuade him of his 'slave' condition and like all-knowing, all-righteous anajmi, become God's instrument in rescuing him from serious punishment in the Hereafter. I could not do that because I think that the Hereafter is just another myth perpetrated by religions.

I hope I have untwisted myself for you a little.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#73

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:22 am

maethist wrote:I tolerate it in the name of freedom of worship.
Why would you tolerate anything related to GOD or Religions ? You have left them all. You are an Atheist !
maethist wrote:I have also made it clear that there is a minority of self-hating kafirs among Sayedna followers who might end up on this forum and join together to form a genuine Bohra brotherhood along with you and Humsafar. But the vast majority appear to be quite happy being kafirs even if they appear to you to be an oppressed lot. That is my observation.
Your observation in incomplete or insufficient. You have once again formed opinion in a jiffy. The vast majority of bohras, are happy or unhappy with their leaders is a difficult question due to many factors influencing their responses. You are imposing your labels of self-hating bohras / kafirs as you please, your explanation is not sufficient.

By your standards, you too seem to be a self-hating atheist, sick of misery and oppression that religion causes and you left to become an atheist. Does not believe in GOD and Religions and yet respecting, defending and then tolerating religious worshipping beleifs of all kinds and nature. It took few correction of your opinions to change your stands. ( appreciate on your part)

I always thought Athiest are rationalist and they believe in scientic dialogue with reason and logic. There are many beleifs which are fairy tales forming basis for oppression. Bohra Dai has devised a few under the disguise of bohra belief and its related worship, that you are so dearly defending as freedom of expression.
maethist wrote: I would be exposing corruption caused by all religions which have historically caused the greatest misery to human kind. Religions rely on sophisticated fairy tales to brainwash children in exclusivist methods. There is a lot to say in this regard but I do not have the time nor the inclination for it..
You need to make up your mind, why you became an atheist in first place ?

You don’t believe in GOD and Religions ! you believe that religion and god is cause of great misery, which is basically done through sophisticated fairy tales brainwashed into children in exclusivist methods as religious beliefs of various kinds, few of them which are under discussion here that you are eagerly defending as freedom of expression. How does this twisted ideaology works for you ?

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#74

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:27 am

I think this guy isn't an atheist at all. I think he is an abde just pretending to be an atheist to appear less foolish than he actually is!! He thought, may be if he pretends to be an outsider defending abde beliefs he will appear more rational. Just like the Hindu giving nuss confirmation!!

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#75

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:07 am

anajmi wrote:I think this guy isn't an atheist at all. I think he is an abde just pretending to be an atheist to appear less foolish than he actually is!! He thought, may be if he pretends to be an outsider defending abde beliefs he will appear more rational. Just like the Hindu giving nuss confirmation!!
Greatest authority on Islam, Quran and Bohras, al-aleem, al-rasheed anajmi,

I do not defend abde, i.e. kafir, beliefs. I defend their right to hold their beliefs. I do not care much for their beliefs as I have repeated here ad nauseum.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#76

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:17 am

Looks like the word "kaafir" is stuck in matheist's craw, and he is going bonkers with it. I engaged him in a discussion thinking we can have a sensible exchange. Turns out, he is just another Kothari shill. What a disappointment.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#77

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:23 am

humabeing,

You have a habit of rambling on, It is difficult to pinpoint how I should respond to you.

I did not label Sayedna followers Kafirs. It is a label that the Greatest authority on Islam, Quran and Bohras, al-aleem, al-rasheed anajmi and his supporter, Humsafar has given them. I use it here for convenience.

'Self-hating' is a label I have lifted from 'Self-hating Jews' to describe Sayedna followers who participate on this board and continue attnding Kafir functions. You and Humsafar are among genuine Bohras, believing in Walayat as a pillar of you faith, unless you tell me otherwise.

The greatest authority on Islam, Quran and Bohras, al-aleem, al-rasheed anajmi claims Walayat is not a pillar of Islam. However, there is a medieval Book called Pillars of Islam by an Ismaili author which states that Walayat is a Pillar of Islam and Kafirs believe in it.

Today will be the last day of my presence here on this forum. I better go before I further start increasing in self-hatred for wasting my time here.
Last edited by maethist on Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

maethist
Posts: 152
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#78

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:30 am

Humsafar wrote:Looks like the word "kaafir" is stuck in matheist's craw, and he is going bonkers with it. I engaged him in a discussion thinking we can have a sensible exchange. Turns out, he is just another Kothari shill. What a disappointment.
You do not like the word Kafir that you labeled Sayedna followers with? That will disappoint your friend, the Greatest authority on Islam, Quran and Bohras, al-aleem, al-rasheed anajmi.

Then please put my mind to rest. Do you agree with him that Walayat is not a pillar of your faith as a Bohra. If you think it is, like Sayedna followers believe it is, what do you understand by the term? Or would that be too unthinking and insensible for you to discuss?

If you do not comment on Walayat, you too will be a disappointment to me.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#79

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:01 am

Humsafar wrote:Looks like the word "kaafir" is stuck in matheist's craw, and he is going bonkers with it. I engaged him in a discussion thinking we can have a sensible exchange. Turns out, he is just another Kothari shill. What a disappointment.
Consider your initial replies to me. Do you detect sarcasm, self-righteous indignation and a penchant for conspiracy theories? Why would you call me a Kothari shill without any evidence? Is that your idea of being a thinking and a sensible debater? You, like your friend, al-aleem, al-rasheed anajmi, are deluded legends in your own minds, to lift the phrase from Clint Eastwood.

I am out of here.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#80

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:04 am

maethist wrote: You do not like the word Kafir that you labeled Sayedna followers with? That will disappoint your friend, the Greatest authority on Islam, Quran and Bohras, al-aleem, al-rasheed anajmi.

Then please put my mind to rest. Do you agree with him that Walayat is not a pillar of your faith as a Bohra. If you think it is, like Sayedna followers believe it is, what do you understand by the term? Or would that be too unthinking and insensible for you to discuss?

If you do not comment on Walayat, you too will be a disappointment to me.
Looks like anajmi is also stuck in your craw :) . If you want to know what I think of Walayat, search my posts, and put your mind to rest yourself.

maethist
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#81

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:08 am

Humsafar wrote:
maethist wrote: You do not like the word Kafir that you labeled Sayedna followers with? That will disappoint your friend, the Greatest authority on Islam, Quran and Bohras, al-aleem, al-rasheed anajmi.

Then please put my mind to rest. Do you agree with him that Walayat is not a pillar of your faith as a Bohra. If you think it is, like Sayedna followers believe it is, what do you understand by the term? Or would that be too unthinking and insensible for you to discuss?

If you do not comment on Walayat, you too will be a disappointment to me.
Looks like anajmi is also stuck in your craw :) . If you want to know what I think of Walayat, search my posts, and put your mind to rest yourself.
Don't be timid. I am not going to search this forum. I am out of here. Spell it out or do you lack courage of your conviction? Is Walayat a pillar of your Bohra faith or not? And what do you understand by the term. Do not be frightened of anajmi.

Good bye.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#82

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:12 am

maethist wrote: I am out of here.
Well, well, didn't know it would be so easy to have you put your tail between your legs...
Go well my friend.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#83

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:16 am

maethist wrote: Don't be timid. I am not going to search this forum. I am out of here. Spell it out or do you lack courage of your conviction? Is Walayat a pillar of your Bohra faith or not? And what do you understand by the term. Do not be frightened of anajmi.

Good bye.
I don't have to prove anything to the likes of you. Yes, search the forum if want the answer.

alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#84

Unread post by alam » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:18 am

I am truly stunned at the arc of the debate on this thread - what started out as S. Insaaf post, and the course it has taken.
Mathiest has done his job very well, and he is out of here now, mission accomplished.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#85

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:26 am

alam wrote:I am truly stunned at the arc of the debate on this thread - what started out as S. Insaaf post, and the course it has taken.
Mathiest has done his job very well, and he is out of here now, mission accomplished.
Agreed, the troll matheist has derailed the thread, and I'm partly guilty of it, too. Apologies. Now let's get back to the topic.

Biradar
Posts: 875
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#86

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:31 pm

I actually think that maethist is making many valid points here. The original post of S Insaf is full of errors, and ridiculous arguments, and in places, makes no sense at all. First, most progressives absolutely fail to understand that majority of bohras are not suffering and are not frightened or worried. I mean, come on, lets get real here. Bohras enjoy their social lives, like the feeling of community they get from being in jamaat, markaz and masjid, and truly love their da'i. Yes, sometimes a few may grumble about financial burdens, but to question the da'i or his representatives does not enter their minds.

The so-called "survey" is form a set of highly self-selecting group of people, and as such without much value. For a representative survey one has to work harder, and not just let people who have access to the internet and live mostly in the west to participate. And, in any case, the results are meaningless. Have you been to a markaz or masjid recently? They are packed with people, who are happy, laughing and socializing with their friends, shedding a tear for a while and praying for even a lesser while. But, "fear" is no where to be seen. Get real, and actually go see the situation on the ground.

The other points maethist raised are also valid. It is true that several people who come here are fifth-columinist, those who want to undermine the Bohra, and the larger Shia, beliefs in which they were raised. It is just a form of self-hatred. I see a lot of ridiculous calls to have Sunni mufti's or the thug Saudis to get involved, declare Bohra's non-Muslims etc. This is the worst sort of treachery and self-hatred if it comes from a Bohra or former-Bohras, specially if meanwhile he still continues to associate with the larger community, hiding the venom in his mind with a smile on his face. Please recall what the Quran says about hypocrites.

I am not surprised at Al Alim al-Islam, Shaik al-Ulama, Mullah Janab Anajmi Saheb (PBUH, TUS, RA, SAW), attacking maethist. However, Humsafar attacks feel more like an et-tu, Brute? type of situation. Sad, really.

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#87

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:27 pm

Good to see you Biradar after a long hiatus.
The survey was such a useless piece of junk, don't know why anybody even bothered to take it seriously.
About Bohras being happy, you're right. They are enjoying their lives. Markaz, jaman, darees and what not. Members of other social clubs also enjoy their gatherings with similar abandon. As a social club Bohras have got it right. But don't you think when it comes to religion and exploitation in the name of religion things are not as hunky dory. Or are you, along with matheist, prepared to condone the worship of Dai as God? Or you accept haqniwat's claim that the Dai is the centre of Bohra universe? The fact of the matter is that, the majority of Bohras care two hoots about religion. They are ignorant and they don't care. They will accept anything myth doled out to them so long as they can have their happy social life.
I see a lot of ridiculous calls to have Sunni mufti's or the thug Saudis to get involved, declare Bohra's non-Muslims etc.
Really? How many times has these calls have been raised? Have reformists ever raised it? Are you going to use this obscure and isolated instance to attack the legitimate opposition to the clergy? You say you have seen the life and behaviour of Bohras and are quite satisfied with what you see. Have you lately seen the life and behaviour of the Dai, the clergy and their royal family? Are you satisfied with what you see? Or like matheist want to leave them to their own devices, and accept whatever they do in the name of Shia Islam and Bohra belief?

I know everybody's hackles rise when Wahabis and the like attack Bohras as kaafirs, but in all sincerity can you blame them? It is Bohras who by their behaviour invite the charge, expose themselves to ridicule. If those Bohras and reformist who are critical of the clergy are "self-haters" then so be it. You too were once such a "self-hater", what happened? Or do you hate Wahabis so much that you are driven to defend the corrupt Taliban-like Bohra clergy? Sad, really.

Biradar
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#88

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:26 pm

My friend Humsafar. I agree in spirit with all the points you are raising. The issue at hand is the analysis of S Insaf about Bohras living in fear, which is the topic of this post. If some naive person were to read it (and take the time to understand the rambling incoherent mess) he would come to the conclusion that Bohras live in a North Korea like state, trembling in fear of the their mullahs. They are not. They are happy. And that precisely is a problem. Unless a person feels stress, unhappiness and instability, he is unlikely to do anything about the status-quo. That is why the reform movement has had only limited success, and also the movement by S. Khuzima Qutbuddin will be a failure. No one wants to rock the boat.

As to your point about people like haqnidawat. I agree with you. He is just another shill, who is blinded by the love of his Master and Lord, who he places at the center of the universe. Perhaps one can forgive him, though. He is on the David side of the David-Goliath fight, and feels he needs a visible, present anchor. And, I also agree with your other point about da'i's importance becoming inflated beyond any reasonable point. I have made that point many times in the past myself.

However, the attacks from the mad mullahs here is more insidious. Their real motive, which they don't hide, BTW, is to attack fundamental aspects of Bohra and Shia beliefs. They are welcome to do so, but to provide them a forum on the Bohra Issues board, is not good form. This board has a basic self-contradition built into it. It allows people to comment freely, but this freedom comes at the risk of determined anti-Shia and anti-Bohras to subvert all discussions, and drive away those who genuinely want to talk about Bohra issues. Seeing that someone of your calibre (and I am not being flattering, but I have followed your contributions here for about 14 years) supports them, is very disheartening.

As to me being a "self-hating" bohra. I am not. I like the Bohra culture, and, more importantly, I like the larger Isamili-Shia philosophy, history and views on religion. I do not support Mr. Muffadal, and am not convinced that S. Qutbuddin can gather enough momentum for his relatively progressive ideas to take root in the community. Most Bohras are content, and will not join his movement. Not because they are afraid, but because they simply have no reason to disturb their placid and happy existence with their friends and family. Sad, but true.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#89

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:02 pm

i personally feel that maethist completely lost the plot here. he started off with his single point agenda of severe objections to 'non-bohras', 'shia haters' and 'self-hating bohras' coming here and ridiculing bohra beliefs: their principal articles of faith, such as valayat and by extension - the dai and unquestioned loyalty to dai, the exemplary lives and actions of past dai duats, the core belief in an imam being constantly present and available on this earth to guide his flock, whether physically present like the aga khan or hidden as in bohra faith, with the dai having the sole and unchallenged rights to represent this 'hidden' imam and 'royally' screw his abdes as he sees fit in the divine order of things.

but soon maethist's dialogue unravelled. he quickly declared himself an ex-bohra and professed atheist. then he went on to say that he has no objections to present day abde bohras being staunch kafirs and mushriqs with the right to enjoy their 'kafirness and shirk' in peace and in quiet enjoyment as per their human rights sanctioned to them by the US constitution. he even agreed that present day abde bohras are in fact, kafirs and mushriqs, but only 'real, non-self-hating bohras' have a right to say so, people of the likes of anajmi et al, who are shia-hating wahabis cannot enjoy that luxury, neither can reformists concur with him nor offer tacit support for such radical views.

so basically, calling present day abde bohras under the able leadership of their charlatan dai any unsavory names is the prerogative of... whom??? only abde bohras themselves. but then they immediately become 'self-hater bohras'....! this is meathist's logic, not mine, which brings us back full circle to... what the hell is the real issue?? no matter how maethist disguises his circular logic, it is transparently clear he has a problem only with anajmi, who in his opinion, is a rabid sunni wahabi, shia hater, islamic bigot, religious extremist, fanatic and despicable creature who should be put down post haste for this forum to regain its sanity and credentials as a pristine 'dawoodi bohra' site.

it looks like the river which started out in full flow, soon lost its way after meandering in the parched desert and dried up into sorry puddles, until meathist threw in the towel and declared it a no-contest.

now to come to this argument that abde bohras are quite happy and content enjoying their 'club', socialising and revelling in their 'closeness' without fear, is a self-defeating one. if they were so happy, making merry and considering themselves so lucky, to be so privileged and exclusive, then why 8 times out of 10, i hear them bitterly complaining about the excessive fees, insults, high handedness and tyranny of sundry officials such as the amil, committee members and ayaans of the jamaat, the tensions they suffer when they have to obtain raza and the run-around and hard times they are subjected to? the unilateral and dictatorial behaviour of everyone who lords it over them? perhaps bohras have so gotten used to this life of oppression and taken it into their stride that they actually pretend that this bullshit is only limited to the lower level satraps, their aqa and mola is as pure as the driven snow, the classical chalta hai attitude of the 'royally screwed'. of course this whole situation does not touch upon the injustice and mutation of their deen by the cunning haramkhors. that is a discussion which is beyond the comprehension and interest of the abde masses. their lives revolve around petty issues and complaints, arey jaman lav bhai, arey salaam ocho karo, arey mane pachvare na saf kem jagya mali, arey mane moharram ma niyaz nu sharaf na aapu, gai kale dabbo bekar hato, etc etc.

if this is acceptable to the vast majority of bohras, then this whole discussion should be taken off the air. let them go to hell should be the stock response. but then somewhere, somehow, deep in the darkest recesses of one's heart and conscience are stirrings of hope, hope that someone, some lost, disgruntled soul will maybe see the light. that is why we persist. that is why i came back and many others keep raising their feeble voices against injustice, oppression, tyranny and deception. to pretend that it is making some huge dent in the kothari coffers would be a delusion, but i personally have witnessed atleast a dozen abdes slowly turning around and deserting this dastardly cult because of this forum.

shouldn't that constitute atleast some semblance of victory? to expect a revolution to happen overnight is foolish and unrealistic, but small victories, even one abde whose spirit is awakened, is a great cause of celebration. that one person will surely influence ten others and those x ten others each. the battle is hard and tough but labor and persist we must. i too have left this cult, but my bohrapanu has not left me. its a david and goliath fight. the monster will eventually die a slow and painful death inflicted by a thousand cuts. it is we who are raining them on their corpulent corpus (couldnt resist that one).

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#90

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:08 pm

Thank you Biradar for clarifying your position, for a moment I thought you had sold your soul to the devil, :-) just kidding.

I think either you have misconstrued my comments or I failed to express myself clearly. I in no way support the "determined anti-Shia and anti-Bohras to subvert all discussions". On the contrary, I've taken issue with them precisely for the same reason. There are two issues here, 1) wahabis derailing topics here with their anti-shia agenda. I'm against that and have spoken up against them. 2) Criticism of Bohra clergy by non-abde Bohras and Wahabis. Both see that there is fundamentally wrong with the picture. Both criticise the clergy from different standpoints. Our agendas are different. It is unfortunate that the two get clubbed together. Not only that, this lack of discrimination actually comes in handy for abde defenders. It is easy for them to dismiss reformists or anyone critical of the clergy as Wahabis. It is a tricky situation, one which reformists have been navigating with great difficulty.

About the state of Bohras, I agree with you completely. I see them as worshipers of the Golden Calf.