Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

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SBM
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#31

Unread post by SBM » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:34 pm

How do you define smoke? Unsubstantiated posts on the internet by an anonymous writer with no proof of anything?
In that case I can do the same too;
And how do you substantiate NUSS Dream by a Hindu, an unknown Hindu. How do you substantiate SMS talking about his brother Huzefa sitting with Panjatan in Jannat?

Critical_Thinker
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#32

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:45 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:Sister Critical_Thinker,
Critical_Thinker wrote:Unsubstantiated posts on the internet by an anonymous writer with no proof of anything?
Most of the posts are by known writers although many of them operate on this forum on anonymous basis and regarding proofs, majority of the posts provide proofs which stare at your face and some are circumstantial. Even the court of law accepts circumstantial evidences as not everything can be proved in black and white.... It requires some common sense also which some people lack and for which nothing can be done !!
You contradict yourself by saying someone is 'known' but at the same time 'anonymous'.
Even though we know there are many wrongdoings, we should not lie or exaggerate.
We must stick firmly to the truth, otherwise we are no better than our opponents.
Would you be kind enough to give the posts where the proofs are provided. Thank you ghulam bhai.

Critical_Thinker
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#33

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:47 pm

SBM wrote:
How do you define smoke? Unsubstantiated posts on the internet by an anonymous writer with no proof of anything?
In that case I can do the same too;
And how do you substantiate NUSS Dream by a Hindu, an unknown Hindu. How do you substantiate SMS talking about his brother Huzefa sitting with Panjatan in Jannat?
No idea. Why are you asking me? Did I ever say these things?

Biradar
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#34

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:11 pm

Critical_Thinker wrote:
ghulam muhammed wrote:Sister Critical_Thinker,
Most of the posts are by known writers although many of them operate on this forum on anonymous basis and regarding proofs, majority of the posts provide proofs which stare at your face and some are circumstantial. Even the court of law accepts circumstantial evidences as not everything can be proved in black and white.... It requires some common sense also which some people lack and for which nothing can be done !!
You contradict yourself by saying someone is 'known' but at the same time 'anonymous'.
Even though we know there are many wrongdoings, we should not lie or exaggerate.
We must stick firmly to the truth, otherwise we are no better than our opponents.
Would you be kind enough to give the posts where the proofs are provided. Thank you ghulam bhai.
Just to address your one point. Just because someone is anonymous does not mean that what they have to say has no value or is not true. Perhaps, as a start you should use your real name, and set an example for us plebs. Otherwise perhaps, using your own standards, we should just ignore you till then.

zinger
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#35

Unread post by zinger » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:24 am

SBM wrote:
Critical_Thinker wrote:I am sure there are many skeletons in many closets, but is there any proof? Without evidence, it is merely rumour which only a few people will believe.
But if there is smoke, there has to be fire
Yes, true, and you guys have been known to make an inferno out of a small spark too :roll:

zinger
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#36

Unread post by zinger » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:42 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:Sister Critical_Thinker,
Critical_Thinker wrote:Unsubstantiated posts on the internet by an anonymous writer with no proof of anything?
Most of the posts are by known writers although many of them operate on this forum on anonymous basis and regarding proofs, majority of the posts provide proofs which stare at your face and some are circumstantial. Even the court of law accepts circumstantial evidences as not everything can be proved in black and white.... It requires some common sense also which some people lack and for which nothing can be done !!
Actually, no courts ever accept circumstantial evidence. its only over here that cases are built on innuendos and rumours and personal opinions

zinger
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#37

Unread post by zinger » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:44 am

SBM wrote:
How do you define smoke? Unsubstantiated posts on the internet by an anonymous writer with no proof of anything?
In that case I can do the same too;
And how do you substantiate NUSS Dream by a Hindu, an unknown Hindu. How do you substantiate SMS talking about his brother Huzefa sitting with Panjatan in Jannat?
you do realise what an irritating habit you have of diverting every topic dont you!!!

humanbeing
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#38

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:41 am

Critical_Thinker wrote:I am sure there are many skeletons in many closets, but is there any proof? Without evidence, it is merely rumour which only a few people will believe.
We can discuss further on what kind of evidences would suffice to prove one’s acts. Initially when I read about atrocities of kothar on commoners and of their own. I used to brush them aside as mere talks and rumours. However I started sharing those incidents with elderlies in my families and started probing. To my surprise, they shared a similar insights into those events. In many cases they had witnessed those atrocities. With advanced technology, thankfully we are getting to see the true colors of Kothari mafia at our fingertips. Their non-synchronized words and actions speaks volume of their misdeeds that does not require more alarming evidences and proofs of their deception.

There can be no amount of evidence sufficient for a blind follower, as they would disregard anything against their comfort zone. For a conscientious person, observation with common sense and compassion is sufficient to disregard / remove these religious thugs from their hearts and affiliation of faith.

humanbeing
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#39

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:51 am

Critical_Thinker wrote:Even though we know there are many wrongdoings, we should not lie or exaggerate……We must stick firmly to the truth, otherwise we are no better than our opponents. .
Agree with you totally ! however certain posts are opinions of forum members, it would be subjective to classify them as exaggerations. One can also consider the drama and pomp that Kothari mullahs put up as exaggeration. But we cannot call it so, as they are expressing their emotions, feelings and opinions as they deem fit.

But there are points, where facts are twisted to such an extent it becomes an exaggerated lie. It would be better if we specifically discussed about particular events to discard it as exaggeration or rumor.

GM’s post to which you have responded are opinions, it does not require evidences. However they are similar and dissimilar in many places.

Critical_Thinker
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#40

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:03 am

Biradar wrote:
Critical_Thinker wrote: You contradict yourself by saying someone is 'known' but at the same time 'anonymous'.
Even though we know there are many wrongdoings, we should not lie or exaggerate.
We must stick firmly to the truth, otherwise we are no better than our opponents.
Would you be kind enough to give the posts where the proofs are provided. Thank you ghulam bhai.
Just to address your one point. Just because someone is anonymous does not mean that what they have to say has no value or is not true. Perhaps, as a start you should use your real name, and set an example for us plebs. Otherwise perhaps, using your own standards, we should just ignore you till then.
Biradar bhai, you, me and everyone else are just plebs on the internet. What makes you think otherwise?
The entire world ignores this forum and its members, including me, so feel free to join them.

To your point though, what anonymous writers (like you or me) say has far less value and legitimacy than known writers (like mr insaf for example)
And just because someone is anonymous, does not mean they cannot provide proof for what they say, especially when the claims are quite shocking and illegal, like ghulam bhai listed in his post before.
He has said he does have proof for all this, so we can look forward to seeing it soon I hope.

Critical_Thinker
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#41

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:16 am

humanbeing wrote:
Critical_Thinker wrote:I am sure there are many skeletons in many closets, but is there any proof? Without evidence, it is merely rumour which only a few people will believe.
We can discuss further on what kind of evidences would suffice to prove one’s acts. Initially when I read about atrocities of kothar on commoners and of their own. I used to brush them aside as mere talks and rumours. However I started sharing those incidents with elderlies in my families and started probing. To my surprise, they shared a similar insights into those events. In many cases they had witnessed those atrocities. With advanced technology, thankfully we are getting to see the true colors of Kothari mafia at our fingertips. Their non-synchronized words and actions speaks volume of their misdeeds that does not require more alarming evidences and proofs of their deception.

There can be no amount of evidence sufficient for a blind follower, as they would disregard anything against their comfort zone. For a conscientious person, observation with common sense and compassion is sufficient to disregard / remove these religious thugs from their hearts and affiliation of faith.
I disagree. A blind follower will naturally require the highest standard of proof, but when that proof is provided, they have to accept it.
The problem is that all we have is rumour and gossip and hearsay, which is not going to persuade anyone other than the already converted.
We are in the 21st century now and all of us have a cellphone. We can use modern technology to secretly video what the kothar say and do and upload it here.
This would convince traditional bohras far more, than us just expressing our opinions and emotions as deemed fit.

The post by ghulam bhai most certainly does require proof, as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Critical_Thinker
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#42

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:18 am

humanbeing wrote:
Critical_Thinker wrote:Even though we know there are many wrongdoings, we should not lie or exaggerate……We must stick firmly to the truth, otherwise we are no better than our opponents. .
Agree with you totally ! however certain posts are opinions of forum members, it would be subjective to classify them as exaggerations. One can also consider the drama and pomp that Kothari mullahs put up as exaggeration. But we cannot call it so, as they are expressing their emotions, feelings and opinions as they deem fit.

But there are points, where facts are twisted to such an extent it becomes an exaggerated lie. It would be better if we specifically discussed about particular events to discard it as exaggeration or rumor.

GM’s post to which you have responded are opinions, it does not require evidences. However they are similar and dissimilar in many places.
The post by ghulam bhai most certainly does require proof, as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

MUSTAPH
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#43

Unread post by MUSTAPH » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:58 pm

Critical thinker

I agree to you that it does require proof. You can also search proof on Google and you will find some of these there like the "‘Report on Violation of Human Rights of Dawoodi Bohras’. "

Tell me when a non believer states anything an abde requires proof although it can be difficult to prove it. Why than when the dai says something there are no proofs asked from them. E.g.. tasting salt before and after food can cure 72 ailments. Th is should be very easy to prove it. Why an abde does not ask for a proof on it.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#44

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:54 pm

Critical_Thinker wrote:The post by ghulam bhai most certainly does require proof, as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Which post are you referring to ??

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#45

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:55 pm

zinger wrote:Actually, no courts ever accept circumstantial evidence.
Do you want me to quote the relevant sections under IPC or CrPC ??

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#46

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:57 pm

Critical_Thinker wrote:You contradict yourself by saying someone is 'known' but at the same time 'anonymous'.
Have you worn blinkers ?? Read my statement once again, I said.... Most of the posts are by known writers although many of them operate on this forum on anonymous basis.

Critical_Thinker
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#47

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:00 pm

MUSTAPH wrote:Critical thinker

I agree to you that it does require proof. You can also search proof on Google and you will find some of these there like the "‘Report on Violation of Human Rights of Dawoodi Bohras’. "

Tell me when a non believer states anything an abde requires proof although it can be difficult to prove it. Why than when the dai says something there are no proofs asked from them. E.g.. tasting salt before and after food can cure 72 ailments. Th is should be very easy to prove it. Why an abde does not ask for a proof on it.
Mustapha bhai, these are two different things. One is religious, which is based on faith.
Nobody can 'prove' allah exists or angels or heaven or hell etc, we believe in them because we have faith (misplaced or otherwise) in our religion.

The other is based in this duniyaa which is clear and concrete and unequivocally illegal, like the accusation of murder that ghulam stated in his post.

Critical_Thinker
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#48

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:02 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
Critical_Thinker wrote:The post by ghulam bhai most certainly does require proof, as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Which post are you referring to ??
This one of course! viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10235#p145428

Critical_Thinker
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#49

Unread post by Critical_Thinker » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:11 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
Critical_Thinker wrote:You contradict yourself by saying someone is 'known' but at the same time 'anonymous'.
Have you worn blinkers ?? Read my statement once again, I said.... Most of the posts are by known writers although many of them operate on this forum on anonymous basis.
'Known' writers? 'Known' by who exactly? You? Admin? SMS? SKQ? The press? The broadcast media?
Unless we have their identity, they are simply anonymous arent they.
Now please provide the proof you promised before ghulam bhai.
I am very eager to see it as I know the kothar are capable of anything.

MUSTAPH
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#50

Unread post by MUSTAPH » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:56 pm

Critical thinker

My dear if you are believing in anything without an evidence it's not called Faith it's called blind Faith. Yes, I will also refer to the existence of God as real if believed without evidence is blind Faith. If you want to believe in God, you should understand what is God.

maethist
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#51

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:25 pm

MUSTAPH wrote:Critical thinker

My dear if you are believing in anything without an evidence it's not called Faith it's called blind Faith. Yes, I will also refer to the existence of God as real if believed without evidence is blind Faith. If you want to believe in God, you should understand what is God.
Faith in an entity is always blind.

If you have evidence for the entity, there is no need for belief or faith in it.

Evidence must be verified by third parties

Faith in God is always blind. Evidence for God may be claimed by someone but, so far, no third party has been able to verify the evidence.

There is absolutely no way to 'understand' God. No instructions are available to understand God.

Instructions to 'understand' yourself are plenty and so are the instructions for worshiping God, who shall remain either a myth or a mystery, another name for a myth until it is exploded.

anajmi
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:37 pm

There is absolutely no way to 'understand' God.
That displays your understanding capability which apparently is non-existent. Unless of course you are humpty dumpty trying to re-write the meaning of 'understand' or Alice who doesn't understand the meaning of 'understand'. In fact if you don't know how to understand, how can you understand anything. If you believe 'understand' is something different from what 'understand' actually is, then even if there are ways to understand God, there is no way you can understand God. Understand?

There are plenty of instructions available to understand God. What is lacking is the capability to understand God. That is what an atheist is. Not one who doesn't have faith in God, but one who is incapable of understanding God.

maethist
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#53

Unread post by maethist » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:49 pm

anajmi wrote: There are plenty of instructions available to understand God. What is lacking is the capability to understand God. That is what an atheist is. Not one who doesn't have faith in God, but one who is incapable of understanding God.
Wise words, O great sage anajmi,

Are only atheists incapable of understanding God?

You have no doubt understood God, Your Profound Highness. Why wouldn't you? Seeing as you have a direct line to Him, O magnificent Messenger of God. May God lengthen your life ta roz-e-qayamat. Ameen.

anajmi
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#54

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:01 am

Are only atheists incapable of understanding God?
Not really. Bohras too. Otherwise they wouldn't be idol worshippers.
Seeing as you have a direct line to Him
Everyone has a direct line to Him. But not all 'understand' how to use it. Understand?

maethist
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#55

Unread post by maethist » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:13 am

anajmi wrote:
Are only atheists incapable of understanding God?
Not really. Bohras too. Otherwise they wouldn't be idol worshippers.
Seeing as you have a direct line to Him
Everyone has a direct line to Him. But not all 'understand' how to use it. Understand?
What words of wisdom, O Great One! I am overcome with such a dazzling and enlightening message. A million thanks, Your Majesty.

Biradar
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#56

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:42 am

Critical_Thinker wrote:Biradar bhai, you, me and everyone else are just plebs on the internet. What makes you think otherwise?
The entire world ignores this forum and its members, including me, so feel free to join them.

To your point though, what anonymous writers (like you or me) say has far less value and legitimacy than known writers (like mr insaf for example)
And just because someone is anonymous, does not mean they cannot provide proof for what they say, especially when the claims are quite shocking and illegal, like ghulam bhai listed in his post before.
He has said he does have proof for all this, so we can look forward to seeing it soon I hope.
I don't want to drag this on for much longer, as it is clear it is pointless arguing. You have come here with an agenda to belittle this forum and the progressives. First you make the untenable claim that it appears to be a Wahabbi forum. Yes, there are Sunnis who post here, but they are few, perhaps only two or three, one of whom (Muslim First) rarely posts in the Bohra sub-Forum after being warned off by the Admin. Then you make strange claim on how ineffective and useless this forum it. Please, don't participate if all you can say is negative things. It is better not to say anything. Repeatedly, you have been asked to give suggestions on how to make things better. You have been silent, and continue to dig into your position.

It is fine, though, as you are free to speak your mind, and vent your frustration.

As to anonymous speech. It can be very powerful. Please study history some before saying things which make you sound ignorant. What you are suggesting, I think, is that people should use their real names, and then things magically will become better. Revealing real identities is actually a big risk for most people here. Many people are "in the closet", so to speak, and sometimes have practical concerns which others may not be able to fathom. Yes, some of us are open with our friends and families, but still, revealing identies on a pubic forum, probably spied on by Kothari goons, is a very big risk.

You asked GM for proof. I will let him provide it himself. However, if you have a large public library close by, please enact the labor to go read the Justice Nathwani Commision report. You will find a lot of proofs there. There is also a book of newspaper clippings documenting many of these things as they happened. We all can also tell you horrifying personal stories of the atrocities committed by the Kothar. But, then you will ask us to reveal our names and identities, just so we open up ourselves to more danger from the mafia clergy.

But you will still not believe as you have made up your mind that we are all wasting our time here, and all this stuff does not matter in any case. You say "The entire world ignores this forum and its members, including me, so feel free to join them.". So why do you bother? So, I wish you the best on this forum or elsewhere. I don't think it is much point engaging with you any further, unless you have something positive to contribute.

humanbeing
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#57

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:34 am

Critical Thinker

You have fixed your mind on negating this forum’s effectiveness and conveniently ignored atrocities of kothar. Your suggestion of people coming out with their identities will not help any cause. Kothar is not a fair player, they are the most deceptive and stealth and they need to be dealt that way. Progressive jamats have survived monsters like kothar itself is commendable.

I am surprised you claim to be a progressive jamat member, and yet you do not appreciate its existence or this forum’s contribution in any aspect. You don’t wish to understand that certain practices which are claimed to be shia practices have sensible meanings but twisted and turned by kothar as a mind control technique leading to dependence >> isolation >> oppression >> exploitation for power and money.

Those who claim the practices of kothar to be in line of shia practices are mistaken. Kothar has hijacked those beliefs and turned into some zombie rituals devoid of its meaning, but ensuring their mind controls to promote dependence and isolation of bohra from others is achieved. Those who support such practices as freedom of expression are mistaken.

Nothing seems enough, it seems. This forum is also a social platform to come together and discuss issue pertaining to community’s affairs, there is no set target, deadline to achieve.

With your fixation with evidences and proofs, there are available. Make your research if those accusation interest you. Be it on this forum or elsewhere. When I started with this forum, I was an abde and rubbished the shocking accusations, scandals and controversies. I did not believe what was written here. So I researched from other sources, I questioned local sheikhs, mullahs and even amils during sabaks and personal interactions. Researched other sites on the internet, read transcripts of court cases, On my casual tours to burhanpur, galiyakot and other cities in india, I explored from locals about the history. These researches took time, efforts and resources. But with every revelation there was sadness.

Kothar is a stealth player, it tries its best to leave no evidence and consequences are violent for whistleblowers. Yet there are people known and unknown who have fought kothar in their capacity.

humanbeing
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#58

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:56 am

humanbeing wrote: I am surprised you claim to be a progressive jamat member, and yet you do not appreciate its existence.
Having read several of your posts, the above assumption is taken back as I saw your support for Udaipur revolution.

SBM
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#59

Unread post by SBM » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:19 pm

Admin
Seems like this thread has turned into Anajmi v/s Maethist about existence of God . Can you please remove all these threads and move to Islam today or Here and Now.
May be create a thread Anjami v/s Maethist

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Few Frank Questions To The "Anti-Mufaddal" Bohras.

#60

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:33 pm

Biradar wrote:...I don't think it is much point engaging with you any further, unless you have something positive to contribute.
you are the second person after me to realise this. this so-called critical thinker is actually in critical mental health. she has nothing to contribute, except bucketfuls of insults directed towards all and sundry, throwing around unfounded and baseless accusations which she apparently believes is solid proof, whilst in total contrast she demands proof from every one she encounters!

i think the delicate phase she is passing through healthwise has totally unhinged her. witness the personal attacks on members with cheap ridicule and name calling, temper tantrums, the need for attention which borders on the pathological, the compulsion to belittle this site run by udaipuri reformists, to hurl mud at the progressives.... well, basically stir up trouble and strife in every direction, just to see where and how far the shit flies.

through all this, this artful dodger steadfastly refuses to answer some very simple questions put to her by humsafar, twice.