reformist have missed the golden opportunity!

[Akhtiar Wahid]

Asalaam'alykum members,

I feel that during this turmoil, unclear evidences, bogus and dogmatic theories about nass, taking bohra folks for a ride, unexpected and unexplained rise in prices for their services (Nikah, Aqiqah etc.).
This was a perfect opportunity for reformist to step in and take charge of the whole situation legally and revoltingly, but rather they chose to setback and see this whole drama from the back seat as a audience.
If they were true to their dawoodi bohra faith and trust in this religion, they would have charged in and made it look pathetic to expose these disgusting and disgraceful people covered in white robes.

[Ozdundee]

AK ..while obviously in your mind reformists or resistance were seating back and watching..what did you personally do to progress the reform movement.

Now there are many initiatives in the pipeline..this public forum on this website is not the only place where you see the running updates..

Going to court for every issue is an unproductive waste of money and time in many cases, there are other avenues and methods.

But if you think it is worthwhile put action to words and your wallet to good cause. Or provide fakir raqm to Admin for a cause.

[SBM]

Or provide fakir raqm to Admin for a cause.

Funny Adam and True Bohra liked this quote.. Does it mean that they will be giving a FAKHIR NAJWA TO ADMIN FOR THE CAUSE

[kimanumanu]

In my opinion, the biggest win for the cause has been the way this forum has become an area where people like myself can freely discuss and ask questions. This is currently not possible elsewhere.

[DisillusionedDB]

In my opinion, the biggest win for the cause has been the way this forum has become an area where people like myself can freely discuss and ask questions. This is currently not possible elsewhere.

Discussing freely and asking questions is not the only good thing this forum has achieved. Among other things, we have seen many orthodox bohras having realised that they are being taken for a "royal" ride and many others who have started taking concrete steps to stop funding the mafia leaders. We have even seen the staunch die-hards who have opened their eyes to the wrongs being perpretated in the guise of Islam.
Water can erode a rock but the erosion process takes time.

[Critical_Thinker]

I have to agree.
Udaipur could have and should have done much more to capitalize on what was happening and use it to spread their own message further.
But as usual, nobody really cared.

Discussing freely and asking questions is not the only good thing this forum has achieved. Among other things, we have seen many orthodox bohras having realised that they are being taken for a "royal" ride and many others who have started taking concrete steps to stop funding the mafia leaders. We have even seen the staunch die-hards who have opened their eyes to the wrongs being perpretated in the guise of Islam.
Water can erode a rock but the erosion process takes time.

With this I must disagree.
Most orthodox bohras do not even know this website exists and the few that do, consider it a wahhabi enterprise.
Even progressive bohras view this place with suspicion and do not come here in great number either.
There are several thousand progressives in udaipur, yet the forum only has about 20 posters at most.
Its a great shame which I doubt will ever change.

[Humsafar]

Some reformists did try to intervene in the court case. They prepared a statement and hired a lawyer, but after much consultation the lawyer advised that they have no locus standi in this case. The refromists' angle was, I believe, to state that Nass is a dicey business and there have been disputes on this issue in the past also and it is not a reliable means to establish a Dai. They wanted to tell the court the stories of Nass of either candidate should be taken with a sackful of salt.

Udaipur could have and should have done much more to capitalize on what was happening and use it to spread their own message further.

Like what.

Most orthodox bohras do not even know this website exists and the few that do, consider it a wahhabi enterprise.

Of course, they would consider it a wahhabi enterprise? The "wahhabi" rubric is very handy to defame and denounce your detractors. Also, for the "iblis toli" (as Biradar puts it) which has no qualms about "lannating" the ex-Mazoon, what chance do reformists or this Forum stand?

Even progressive bohras view this place with suspicion and do not come here in great number either.

Really? How many progressive bohras do you know? And how many out of them are suspicious of this place?

There are several thousand progressives in udaipur, yet the forum only has about 20 posters at most.
Its a great shame which I doubt will ever change.

Right, there are several thousand reformists in Udaipur, and there are two reasons I can think of as to why they don't come here. 1) The language issue, not many are proficient in English and they hesitate to participate. 2) They are living the reform and are busy fighting the daily battles with the orthodox. That Udaipur reformists still exist is no small feat - they have weathered machinations, attacks and betrayals for more than 40 years, and all on their on steam without much support from anywhere else. It is easy for people who apparently do nothing - and have done nothing - to come and spew homilies. Yes, Udaipur could have done more only if the supine abdes had bothered to stir out of their slumber and supported them. Udaipur has revolted and has shown what can be possible. It can't make revolution for others. Only lazy and timid people expect that.

[dawedaar]

I agree, the OP Akhtiar Wahid thinks that all this is piece of cake. He is entitled to this thoughts which have been well answered here. Yes, this forum needs more publicity. One of the best mediums is facebook where abdes are present in large numbers. I have tried publicizing this forum on facebook through various abde groups. I got some time where I shared links to many threads on this forum. My fake id has been blocked now by fb as a result!

[ghulam muhammed]

Actually after the watsup messenger came into vogue, bohras across the globe have been receiving extracts of many posts on watsup and they are spreading in bohra circle like wild fire. Doesn't one remember as to how Muffy or his subordinate had issued farman to curtail the usage of watsup.

Even the Ziyafat scams which were boldly shown on kothar sponsored websites were discontinued after that scam was exposed on this very forum.

[Critical_Thinker]

Some reformists did try to intervene in the court case. They prepared a statement and hired a lawyer, but after much consultation the lawyer advised that they have no locus standi in this case. The refromists' angle was, I believe, to state that Nass is a dicey business and there have been disputes on this issue in the past also and it is not a reliable means to establish a Dai. They wanted to tell the court the stories of Nass of either candidate should be taken with a sackful of salt.

Udaipur could have and should have done much more to capitalize on what was happening and use it to spread their own message further.

Like what.

Most orthodox bohras do not even know this website exists and the few that do, consider it a wahhabi enterprise.

Of course, they would consider it a wahhabi enterprise? The "wahhabi" rubric is very handy to defame and denounce your detractors. Also, for the "iblis toli" (as Biradar puts it) which has no qualms about "lannating" the ex-Mazoon, what chance do reformists or this Forum stand?

Even progressive bohras view this place with suspicion and do not come here in great number either.

Really? How many progressive bohras do you know? And how many out of them are suspicious of this place?

There are several thousand progressives in udaipur, yet the forum only has about 20 posters at most.
Its a great shame which I doubt will ever change.

Right, there are several thousand reformists in Udaipur, and there are two reasons I can think of as to why they don't come here. 1) The language issue, not many are proficient in English and they hesitate to participate. 2) They are living the reform and are busy fighting the daily battles with the orthodox. That Udaipur reformists still exist is no small feat - they have weathered machinations, attacks and betrayals for more than 40 years, and all on their on steam without much support from anywhere else. It is easy for people who apparently do nothing - and have done nothing - to come and spew homilies. Yes, Udaipur could have done more only if the supine abdes had bothered to stir out of their slumber and supported them. Udaipur has revolted and has shown what can be possible. It can't make revolution for others. Only lazy and timid people expect that.

I visit udaipur almost every two years as I have many relatives there.
Most there, especially those of my generation, are happy living their lives and are not interested in fighting for any cause.
This website has never really been taken seriously, not even by Mr engineer who refused to take part.
Nobody knows who the real owners are here and most feel it is run quite badly by a 'non-bohra' organization.
Do you live in udaipur humsafar? If you do then why not get more people to come here?

[Critical_Thinker]

Actually after the watsup messenger came into vogue, bohras across the globe have been receiving extracts of many posts on watsup and they are spreading in bohra circle like wild fire. Doesn't one remember as to how Muffy or his subordinate had issued farman to curtail the usage of watsup.

Even the Ziyafat scams which were boldly shown on kothar sponsored websites were discontinued after that scam was exposed on this very forum.

Whatsapp and email are not really changing anything in the big picture.
Traditional bohras are, for the most part, quite happy with life, even though they complain about money.
Progressive bohras are also quite happy with life, and not overly bothered about destroying the clergy.
Overall, its almost like a stalemate has been reached and both sides have more important things to worry about.
It has been like this for quite some time now.

[Biradar]

The reach of this forum is actually more widespread than one would imagine from just the few prolific participants. One key thing, as GM pointed out, is that a lot of the posts here get spread like fire on Whatsapp and other SMS services. Also, probably a lot of Bohras come here to read the forums, but hesitate to participate as not everyone is cut out for the free-for-all here. Bohras in general are peaceful and want to avoid confrontation. If you post here, you must be ready for a lot of back-and-forth, and even abuse and trolling. Not everyone likes that.

Also, this forum has a huge amount of resources which are not found anywhere at all. For example, the analysis of the nass video was done almost immediately after the drama in Raudat Tahera and people expressed skepticism. More importantly, the whole Zahir-Batin fiasco was documented here in great detail, debated and argued over. What many people now have forgotten is that Mr. Muffadul (LA) was the central figure in the hate-campain against the Mazoon saheb. The zahirbatin website was taken down and all its contents trashed (although some of it is still available on waybackmachine). However, all the details are here in the forum archives.

For me the biggest victory for progressives is that despite their enormous strength, huge resources, both financial and political, the Kothar have not been able to take this website down, or shut down the Progressives in Udaipur and elsewhere. This says something for the tenacity of the people, both in real life as well as online.

[Critical_Thinker]

The reach of this forum is actually more widespread than one would imagine from just the few prolific participants. One key thing, as GM pointed out, is that a lot of the posts here get spread like fire on Whatsapp and other SMS services. Also, probably a lot of Bohras come here to read the forums, but hesitate to participate as not everyone is cut out for the free-for-all here. Bohras in general are peaceful and want to avoid confrontation. If you post here, you must be ready for a lot of back-and-forth, and even abuse and trolling. Not everyone likes that.

Also, this forum has a huge amount of resources which are not found anywhere at all. For example, the analysis of the nass video was done almost immediately after the drama in Raudat Tahera and people expressed skepticism. More importantly, the whole Zahir-Batin fiasco was documented here in great detail, debated and argued over. What many people now have forgotten is that Mr. Muffadul (LA) was the central figure in the hate-campain against the Mazoon saheb. The zahirbatin website was taken down and all its contents trashed (although some of it is still available on waybackmachine). However, all the details are here in the forum archives.

For me the biggest victory for progressives is that despite their enormous strength, huge resources, both financial and political, the Kothar have not been able to take this website down, or shut down the Progressives in Udaipur and elsewhere. This says something for the tenacity of the people, both in real life as well as online.

Hello birader bhai, it was yours and matheist bhais posts which finally got me to join the forum!
Although I agree with your previous posts, I must disagree with this one.
Both progressive and traditional bohras dont come here because they simply arent bothered about the place.
Like you said yourself in another thread, we are happy with our lot and are busy just getting on with our lives.
To me, the fact they havent taken this website down, is not a victory, its an indication of its insignificance.
It just proves that nobody cares about it, not even the bohra clergy because they know it wont make a jot of difference.

[SBM]

Sister Critical
How did you find out about this forum?

[dawedaar]

The bohra clergy cares. Why would they then mention during successive waaz that 'Beeja logo/Dushmano na parchaao naa waachjo'

It just proves that nobody cares about it, not even the bohra clergy because they know it wont make a jot of difference.

[Biradar]

Hello birader bhai, it was yours and matheist bhais posts which finally got me to join the forum!
Although I agree with your previous posts, I must disagree with this one.
Both progressive and traditional bohras dont come here because they simply arent bothered about the place.
Like you said yourself in another thread, we are happy with our lot and are busy just getting on with our lives.
To me, the fact they havent taken this website down, is not a victory, its an indication of its insignificance.
It just proves that nobody cares about it, not even the bohra clergy because they know it wont make a jot of difference.

Bolding mine. Yes, perhaps you are correct. I don't think so, though. The significance of many things does not lie in the numbers. In fact, these things start small and then take a life of their own. The progressive movement has had a lot of success among intellectuals, for example. Now, you may contest that these don't matter, as the clergy has subverted the political system for itself. I would argue that it does matter. Take your own example, or that of the dozens of others here. It is obvious not many here have much respect for Mr. Muffadul, the Kothar, collectively known as the Iblisi Toli. That fact that you registered here is a sign in itself. People are thinking for themselves, perhaps in small numbers, but still, it is a big change.

What I suggest to you is to take the fight to your own family and friends. Talk to them politely and point out the problems in the Kothar and the behavior of a so-called da'i. I am not sure who you follow, but please don't blindly follow anyone, specially this thug and charlatan Muffadul. He will certainly lead you to hell, where is himself is going to burn for eternity. If needed, stay away from functions and jamaans, and show by your own example that you can live just fine without them. Refuse invitations to majlis where you think un-Islamic behavior will occur. Show courage yourself and then others will follow.

For myself, I have made my views very clear to my family and friends. They at first were angry and upset, but they eventually got over it. Those who did not, well good riddance to them! I no longer go to any event organized by the Iblisi Toli, and, honestly, do not miss it either. I rather stay at home than be a part of this terrible travesty of religion which this charlatan is propagating.

Propagate for a better society as best as you can. First with your own example. I know it feels like one is trying to light a candle in a thunder storm, but try anyway. At least those who participate here, and those who do something in real life, perhaps a few, won't keep wringing their hands that they did not do anything. And welcome to this board!

[Critical_Thinker]

Hello birader bhai, it was yours and matheist bhais posts which finally got me to join the forum!
Although I agree with your previous posts, I must disagree with this one.
Both progressive and traditional bohras dont come here because they simply arent bothered about the place.
Like you said yourself in another thread, we are happy with our lot and are busy just getting on with our lives.
To me, the fact they havent taken this website down, is not a victory, its an indication of its insignificance.
It just proves that nobody cares about it, not even the bohra clergy because they know it wont make a jot of difference.

Bolding mine. Yes, perhaps you are correct. I don't think so, though. The significance of many things does not lie in the numbers. In fact, these things start small and then take a life of their own. The progressive movement has had a lot of success among intellectuals, for example. Now, you may contest that these don't matter, as the clergy has subverted the political system for itself. I would argue that it does matter. Take your own example, or that of the dozens of others here. It is obvious not many here have much respect for Mr. Muffadul, the Kothar, collectively known as the Iblisi Toli. That fact that you registered here is a sign in itself. People are thinking for themselves, perhaps in small numbers, but still, it is a big change.

What I suggest to you is to take the fight to your own family and friends. Talk to them politely and point out the problems in the Kothar and the behavior of a so-called da'i. I am not sure who you follow, but please don't blindly follow anyone, specially this thug and charlatan Muffadul. He will certainly lead you to hell, where is himself is going to burn for eternity. If needed, stay away from functions and jamaans, and show by your own example that you can live just fine without them. Refuse invitations to majlis where you think un-Islamic behavior will occur. Show courage yourself and then others will follow.

For myself, I have made my views very clear to my family and friends. They at first were angry and upset, but they eventually got over it. Those who did not, well good riddance to them! I no longer go to any event organized by the Iblisi Toli, and, honestly, do not miss it either. I rather stay at home than be a part of this terrible travesty of religion which this charlatan is propagating.

Propagate for a better society as best as you can. First with your own example. I know it feels like one is trying to light a candle in a thunder storm, but try anyway. At least those who participate here, and those who do something in real life, perhaps a few, won't keep wringing their hands that they did not do anything. And welcome to this board!

Thank you for the welcome biradar bhai.
I should explain that Im already a member of the progressive jamaat but am now considering joining the SKQ camp.

To your point though, I have to disagree again. In reality, the significance of things does lie in the numbers.
Even moreso, it corresponds with the outward results.
We can all see that the progressives havent even put a scratch on the kothar, so the results are non-existent.
It would be a wonderful thing if we were important, but sadly we are not.

[Humsafar]

We can all see that the progressives havent even put a scratch on the kothar, so the results are non-existent.

For years I've been battling this notion, this mindset, which burdens the reformists with the onus of chaning the Kothar. The refrain goes: Reformists should do this, reformists should do that, they have not made a difference, not a scratch, where are the numbers, their number have dwindled, they are happy with their lives etc etc. Why this unreasonable expectation from reformists while the abdes and many critical non-thinkers do nothing. Picking on reformists may give you satisfaction, but the numbers you seek will come from the ranks of people like you. As for putting a scratch on the Kothar, we have launched a number of court cases against the clergy about wakf of masjids, ex-communication etc. and put them on retreat. At one time they went easy on the baraat because of the court case. They wanted to show to the court that they do not practice baraat. GM and Birader have pointed out instances of how the Kothar has backtracked because of the noise on this Froum.
The fact is that the Kothar cannot fight with reformists fair and square, so it takes the devious route to bribe and cultivate corrupt politicians, government officers, Muslims leaders, and anti-Muslim bigots like Bal Thackeray and Modi. It has built this political clout to protect itself and its ill-gotten wealth. This is their modus operandi. Before coming out swinging like a shambling don quixote, take a deep breath and try to think critically for a change. Look at what reformists have got and look at the power and pelf of the kothar. The comparison in beyond even David and Goiath. Still we have been quite a pain in its ass. Next time before anyone raises a finger at reformists, please in clear conscience ask yourself first in all honsety what have you done to put a scratch on the Kothar. Don't make reformists the punching bag for your frustrations and weakness.

This website has never really been taken seriously, not even by Mr engineer who refused to take part.

Refused to take part? Seriously? How would you know. Have you seen his postings here. He was too busy to come and participate in the discussion like we do. But he always responded to questions sent to him.

Nobody knows who the real owners are here and most feel it is run quite badly by a 'non-bohra' organization.

What wild conjectures. And see how you bandy about your opinion as fact. In another thread you were dismissing Kothar's atrocities because of lack of evidence. And here your ignoring your own good counsel, and starting a rumour. Why? Because you are a biased thinker?

[Biradar]

To your point though, I have to disagree again. In reality, the significance of things does lie in the numbers.
Even moreso, it corresponds with the outward results.
We can all see that the progressives havent even put a scratch on the kothar, so the results are non-existent.
It would be a wonderful thing if we were important, but sadly we are not.

Amazing. Please lets count the number of people who were with Maulana Ali after the Prophet died. Or the number of people were left by Imam Hassain by the day of Ashura. According to your standards, these two eminent people failed as they did not attract thousands of followers! In fact, Yazid and the usurpers after the Prophet were very powerful, subverted the political systems of the day and amassed vast amounts of money and power. Of course, I am not comparing ourself to Ali or Hussain, but to put matters in perspective that often David and Goliath fights take a long time to resolve, and, unfortunately, often David looses.

As to you wanting to joining S. Qutbuddin. Yes, you should do that if your heart so desires. You can continue to be a reformist even then. Most people think one must immediately stop believing the da'i once one harbors any progressive ideas. Not so. These are two orthogonal things, and the Kothar has cleverly made the reformists to be da'i na dushman.

Friend Humsafar has addressed your other points well. Please don't put too much responsibility on the progressive doorstep! It is not fair, specially if all one can do is complain about lack of success, while doing nothing oneself. Participating on this board is a good first step, but translate it into your life and things will get better!

[jamanpasand]

I get amused by heading of this tread. What golden opportunity ? Is there any difference between SKQ and SMS ? None.
If the reform movement has sided with SKQ in the present turmoil, their very independent existence would have been compromised in a very short run. SKQ will be no different from SMS if enjoyed same power and wealth. So long as this monarch dai family is in power nothing will get changed. The only hope for Bohras to get some relief is bloodshed within this Qasre Mavali. Till then its a wait and see game and the loot will continue.

[bohra_manus]

We can all see that the progressives havent even put a scratch on the kothar, so the results are non-existent.

For years I've been battling this notion, this mindset, which burdens the reformists with the onus of chaning the Kothar. The refrain goes: Reformists should do this, reformists should do that, they have not made a difference, not a scratch, where are the numbers, their number have dwindled, they are happy with their lives etc etc. Why this unreasonable expectation from reformists while the abdes and many critical non-thinkers do nothing. Picking on reformists may give you satisfaction, but the numbers you seek will come from the ranks of people like you. As for putting a scratch on the Kothar, we have launched a number of court cases against the clergy about wakf of masjids, ex-communication etc. and put them on retreat. At one time they went easy on the baraat because of the court case. They wanted to show to the court that they do not practice baraat. GM and Birader have pointed out instances of how the Kothar has backtracked because of the noise on this Froum.
The fact is that the Kothar cannot fight with reformists fair and square, so it takes the devious route to bribe and cultivate corrupt politicians, government officers, Muslims leaders, and anti-Muslim bigots like Bal Thackeray and Modi. It has built this political clout to protect itself and its ill-gotten wealth. This is their modus operandi. Before coming out swinging like a shambling don quixote, take a deep breath and try to think critically for a change. Look at what reformists have got and look at the power and pelf of the kothar. The comparison in beyond even David and Goiath. Still we have been quite a pain in its ass. Next time before anyone raises a finger at reformists, please in clear conscience ask yourself first in all honsety what have you done to put a scratch on the Kothar. Don't make reformists the punching bag for your frustrations and weakness.

This website has never really been taken seriously, not even by Mr engineer who refused to take part.

Refused to take part? Seriously? How would you know. Have you seen his postings here. He was too busy to come and participate in the discussion like we do. But he always responded to questions sent to him.

Nobody knows who the real owners are here and most feel it is run quite badly by a 'non-bohra' organization.

What wild conjectures. And see how you bandy about your opinion as fact. In another thread you were dismissing Kothar's atrocities because of lack of evidence. And here your ignoring your own good counsel, and starting a rumour. Why? Because you are a biased thinker?

Very well said, Br. Humsafar ...

[JC]

I get amused by heading of this tread. What golden opportunity ? Is there any difference between SKQ and SMS ? None.
If the reform movement has sided with SKQ in the present turmoil, their very independent existence would have been compromised in a very short run. SKQ will be no different from SMS if enjoyed same power and wealth. So long as this monarch dai family is in power nothing will get changed. The only hope for Bohras to get some relief is bloodshed within this Qasre Mavali. Till then its a wait and see game and the loot will continue.

A revolution from inside is required. KQ is good example, at least the divisions for power and money have brought to light and now even abdes cannot refuse that there is no infight in so called 'royal' family!! We need more KQs who would come out and fight their own people for power and money and their share. Bohras should see this and take notes (and lessons). Regular bohras need to wake up at least!!

[Critical_Thinker]

We can all see that the progressives havent even put a scratch on the kothar, so the results are non-existent.

For years I've been battling this notion, this mindset, which burdens the reformists with the onus of chaning the Kothar. The refrain goes: Reformists should do this, reformists should do that, they have not made a difference, not a scratch, where are the numbers, their number have dwindled, they are happy with their lives etc etc. Why this unreasonable expectation from reformists while the abdes and many critical non-thinkers do nothing. Picking on reformists may give you satisfaction, but the numbers you seek will come from the ranks of people like you. As for putting a scratch on the Kothar, we have launched a number of court cases against the clergy about wakf of masjids, ex-communication etc. and put them on retreat. At one time they went easy on the baraat because of the court case. They wanted to show to the court that they do not practice baraat. GM and Birader have pointed out instances of how the Kothar has backtracked because of the noise on this Froum.
The fact is that the Kothar cannot fight with reformists fair and square, so it takes the devious route to bribe and cultivate corrupt politicians, government officers, Muslims leaders, and anti-Muslim bigots like Bal Thackeray and Modi. It has built this political clout to protect itself and its ill-gotten wealth. This is their modus operandi. Before coming out swinging like a shambling don quixote, take a deep breath and try to think critically for a change. Look at what reformists have got and look at the power and pelf of the kothar. The comparison in beyond even David and Goiath. Still we have been quite a pain in its ass. Next time before anyone raises a finger at reformists, please in clear conscience ask yourself first in all honsety what have you done to put a scratch on the Kothar. Don't make reformists the punching bag for your frustrations and weakness.

This website has never really been taken seriously, not even by Mr engineer who refused to take part.

Refused to take part? Seriously? How would you know. Have you seen his postings here. He was too busy to come and participate in the discussion like we do. But he always responded to questions sent to him.

Nobody knows who the real owners are here and most feel it is run quite badly by a 'non-bohra' organization.

What wild conjectures. And see how you bandy about your opinion as fact. In another thread you were dismissing Kothar's atrocities because of lack of evidence. And here your ignoring your own good counsel, and starting a rumour. Why? Because you are a biased thinker?

You are right, traditional bohras and even non-bohras call for more action from the progressive bohras.
At the same time, like you have just demonstrated, progressives call for more action from the traditional bohras.
Its like a strange comedy. People yelling at each other; you do something, no you do something, no you do something!

Could you provide links to the threads where you say the kothar backtracked due to this forum please.

Using the analogy of david and goliath is unfair as david won that fight humsafar bhai.
We all know how big and powerful the kothar is, which is why the progressive movement will never achieve much.
The fact we still exist and are surviving, should in all honesty, be enough to satisfy our lofty ambitions.

Mr engineer never got involved here, and not because he didnt have time. He dedicated his life to the reform movement.

You know as well as I do, that many people are suspicious about the owners and the motive of this website.
It has been expressed on this forum many times and is mentioned in person whenever you bring this place up.
Most traditional bohras think this is a dubious wahhabi run forum, and many progressives think the same too.
The evidence for this is beyond even the shadow of a doubt.
The fact that only about 20 people post here, and the fact that most of the postings are by wahhabis.
Dont be silly and try to deny this.

It seems as though you are from udaipur? Could you please ask more udaipuris to come here then.
Maybe you will know some people who do trust this website as none of my friends and relatives do.

[Critical_Thinker]

To your point though, I have to disagree again. In reality, the significance of things does lie in the numbers.
Even moreso, it corresponds with the outward results.
We can all see that the progressives havent even put a scratch on the kothar, so the results are non-existent.
It would be a wonderful thing if we were important, but sadly we are not.

Amazing. Please lets count the number of people who were with Maulana Ali after the Prophet died. Or the number of people were left by Imam Hassain by the day of Ashura. According to your standards, these two eminent people failed as they did not attract thousands of followers! In fact, Yazid and the usurpers after the Prophet were very powerful, subverted the political systems of the day and amassed vast amounts of money and power. Of course, I am not comparing ourself to Ali or Hussain, but to put matters in perspective that often David and Goliath fights take a long time to resolve, and, unfortunately, often David looses.

As to you wanting to joining S. Qutbuddin. Yes, you should do that if your heart so desires. You can continue to be a reformist even then. Most people think one must immediately stop believing the da'i once one harbors any progressive ideas. Not so. These are two orthogonal things, and the Kothar has cleverly made the reformists to be da'i na dushman.

Friend Humsafar has addressed your other points well. Please don't put too much responsibility on the progressive doorstep! It is not fair, specially if all one can do is complain about lack of success, while doing nothing oneself. Participating on this board is a good first step, but translate it into your life and things will get better!

Biradar bhai, Ive watched the situation in udaipur since childhood.
We are not gaining any ground indeed we are now stuck in a rut.
The progressive jamaat I am with now is slowly regressing.
Making comparisons to david or imam hussain, or the usual suspect of gandhi, is becoming a very tired cliche which makes us sound delusional.

I am not complaining about lack of success. I am happy that we exist at all.
I merely live in stark reality by correcting those who think we are making a huge impact, when clearly we are not.
Lets be proud of what we have done, and not fantasize about what we havent.

By the way, myself and my family have been members of the reformist jamaat for over 20 years.
I am not an outsider so dont need a pat on the head about life getting better!

[SBM]

Critical Thinker
How did you find about this forum and how come you are so active if you donot like anything about this. Why are you wasting your important time on this forum which only reaches a miniscule number. Your time according to you will be better spent on making MORE ROTIS FOR LOT MORE KHUSHI OF YOUR MOULA

[Critical_Thinker]

Critical Thinker
How did you find about this forum and how come you are so active if you donot like anything about this. Why are you wasting your important time on this forum which only reaches a miniscule number. Your time according to you will be better spent on making MORE ROTIS FOR LOT MORE KHUSHI OF YOUR MOULA

I have known about this place for many years.
What do you mean, 'I do not like anything about this'?
I have more time now as I am at home having recently become a mother.
I am active here because I enjoy conversation and debate, even if it is with a tiny number of people.

I love making rotis for my family.
I would guess there is nobody making rotis for you SBM, which is why you never stop talking about it.

[SBM]

I would guess there is nobody making rotis for you SBM, which is why you never stop talking about it.

You are not paying attention, did not I tell you that I am following MOULA's FARMAN and learning how to make ROTI...
And Congratulations for becoming mother,

[Critical_Thinker]

I would guess there is nobody making rotis for you SBM, which is why you never stop talking about it.

You are not paying attention, did not I tell you that I am following MOULA's FARMAN and learning how to make ROTI...

As matheist bhai might say, isnt anajmi your maula SBM?

[Al Zulfiqar]

sister critical thinker,

i have a few questions for you:

1. you have said that this site is 'insignificant'. pray, then why are you here, to be a part of this 'insignificant' site, or to heap insults and ridicule on it?
2. it is your conclusion that the reformists have done nothing. what have you done since you joined them and visited udaipur every so often?
3. you have serious doubts about this site, its ownership, management and leanings, once again, why be an active contributor to such a dangerous, insidious site?
4. have you ever tried actively to research and find out who is running this site, where the meagre funds are coming from?
5. have you ever tried impartially to do some homework and find out how a tiny little site like this has proven to be a painful thorn in the kothari mafia's side? how many times we have seen hard evidence of the swift corrective measures they had to take to hide their kufr after being exposed here?
6. it seems at this time that you have a lot of angst and anger at the way our community is being run and exploited. you are blindly lashing out for someone to blame. do you realise that you are accusing the 'victims', crucifying them for their lack of resources when faced with a monstrously powerful adversary, instead of finding your own way to take on these con-artists who are taking the entire community for a ride? this is like society blaming a rape victim and turning a blind eye to the haramkhor rapist. is this something that one should expect from you, a woman herself?
7. i beg of you, please focus on the goals ahead. either you be an integral part of the reform movement, no matter how humble your contribution, or you leave this cult and find your own way to happiness. but please do not discourage and disparage those who are valiantly attempting, no matter if it is a tiny grain of sand in a humble sparrow's beak which is trying to plug the leak.

you should know that udaipuri's have never been allowed to lead their lives in peace. they are so busy fighting the goondas of kothar, besides earning an honest livelihood, that they hardly have time to come here and participate. they are doing more than you and i could do sitting behind a computer. if it was not for udaipur, you would not have this site, you would not be here and neither would this wave of rebellion against mufaddal. if you have not understood this, then there is no point in my listing all the gains that have occured because of the reformists, esp of the udaipuris.

[SBM]

You are not paying attention, did not I tell you that I am following MOULA's FARMAN and learning how to make ROTI...

As matheist bhai might say, isnt anajmi your maula SBM?

No the one who ask his followers to make ROTI is my MOULA ,, WHO IS YOUR MOULA?