Altering the facts of events in Ashura

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anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Altering the facts of events in Ashura

#31

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:58 pm

Something relevant or maybe not.

If any of you guys have seen inception, then check this video out. If you can last through the initial ads that now seem to be plaguing the entire web.

http://www.collegehumor.com/video/62503 ... -inception

and if you have seen prometheus, then check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1YuvUQFJ0



pheonix
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:32 am

#32

Unread post by pheonix » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:40 pm

anajmi wrote:Something relevant or maybe not.

If any of you guys have seen inception, then check this video out. If you can last through the initial ads that now seem to be plaguing the entire web.

http://www.collegehumor.com/video/62503 ... -inception

and if you have seen prometheus, then check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1YuvUQFJ0
No matter how much you kick him, this mongrel keeps coming back.
Shoo wahabi Shoo



Aymelek
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 3:14 am

#33

Unread post by Aymelek » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:23 am

salaar wrote:You might have not heard the name of maulana Bashir,
Br. Salaar,

Can you throw some light on this Syedna Bashir



qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

#34

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:43 am

well this thread is about karbala.
no need for anyone to come and write who basically beleives karbala was a political war.



salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

#35

Unread post by salaar » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:17 am

I have a very old book, a majlis compilation inherited from my great grandfather, in that book many events of Karbala is narrated. In the recent past I didn't hear many of the events in the book in our majalis and thought that these might not be true but for the last ten years I am observing that every year they give one or two event that is already mentioned in the book and since there are many events and personalities that are discussed in the book I presume they would be mentioned soon in waiz in coming years. I don't want to discuss something which has not been touched yet and wait till it is announced in waiz, maulana Bashir in the book was the son of Imam Hussain elder to Shahzada Ali Akbar and he attained shahadat before him.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#36

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:38 pm

salaar wrote:maulana Bashir in the book was the son of Imam Hussain elder to Shahzada Ali Akbar and he attained shahadat before him.
Bro salaar,

Is Molana Bashir's name mentioned in the list of 72 shohadas of Karbala, Iam asking you this question because I didn't find a mention of him anywhere in any shia/sunni sites.



salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

#37

Unread post by salaar » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:51 pm

i will have to confirm it because the name Bashir was often used in that period like Bashir bin Uzzam, Bashir bin Hasan, and i could recall this name in the list but i dont think it was the first name, give me sometime to check the list, secondly as per Arab tradition they often had one name but lovingly called by some other like the real name of 6 months old Ali Asghar was Abdullah, i would request other member to check the authentic list if they have.



seeker110
Posts: 1724
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#38

Unread post by seeker110 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:48 pm

If you put a man on the pulpit for hours when he can hardly read the material in front of him. You can be sure of a lot of bull in between the topic.

Watch him get fired within minutes of reading the news on TV.

This dog aint gona hunt. George Bush Jr.



kseeker
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

#39

Unread post by kseeker » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:59 am

salaar wrote:I have a very old book, a majlis compilation inherited from my great grandfather, in that book many events of Karbala is narrated. In the recent past I didn't hear many of the events in the book in our majalis and thought that these might not be true but for the last ten years I am observing that every year they give one or two event that is already mentioned in the book and since there are many events and personalities that are discussed in the book I presume they would be mentioned soon in waiz in coming years. I don't want to discuss something which has not been touched yet and wait till it is announced in waiz, maulana Bashir in the book was the son of Imam Hussain elder to Shahzada Ali Akbar and he attained shahadat before him.
I too have had the great opportunity to read a couple of books written by dawoodi bohra scholars.. and yes, there is a lot which is not yet mentioned however I am sure you can agree that the book you have has no mention of any shahaadat after or between Abbas- Ali Akbar- Ali Asghar and Hussain.....



Akhtiar Wahid
Posts: 802
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:22 am

#40

Unread post by Akhtiar Wahid » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:07 am

pheonix wrote:
anajmi wrote:Something relevant or maybe not.

If any of you guys have seen inception, then check this video out. If you can last through the initial ads that now seem to be plaguing the entire web.

http://www.collegehumor.com/video/62503 ... -inception

and if you have seen prometheus, then check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1YuvUQFJ0
No matter how much you kick him, this mongrel keeps coming back.
Shoo wahabi Shoo
I see how wahabis shoo Bohri shoo in Makkah Mukarama and Madina Munawara and you guys shoo away like chicken!



salaar
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 am

#41

Unread post by salaar » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:51 pm

kseeker wrote:
salaar wrote:I have a very old book, a majlis compilation inherited from my great grandfather, in that book many events of Karbala is narrated. In the recent past I didn't hear many of the events in the book in our majalis and thought that these might not be true but for the last ten years I am observing that every year they give one or two event that is already mentioned in the book and since there are many events and personalities that are discussed in the book I presume they would be mentioned soon in waiz in coming years. I don't want to discuss something which has not been touched yet and wait till it is announced in waiz, maulana Bashir in the book was the son of Imam Hussain elder to Shahzada Ali Akbar and he attained shahadat before him.
I too have had the great opportunity to read a couple of books written by dawoodi bohra scholars.. and yes, there is a lot which is not yet mentioned however I am sure you can agree that the book you have has no mention of any shahaadat after or between Abbas- Ali Akbar- Ali Asghar and Hussain.....

you are right on that after Abbas Allamdar its Shahzada Ali Akbar, Ali Asghar and then Moula Hussain himself.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#42

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:10 pm

A post by S. Insaf which had appeared some time back :-

The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala - Part -I

Muharram is commemorated each year by Shia and Sunni Muslims and mourning reaches its climax on the 10th of Muharram, the day of the battle, known as Ashurah.

Ashurah is a day of sermons describing the sufferings and sacrifices of Imam Husain and his handful companions, their commitments, their bravery in battlefield and ultimately the way they were most mercilessly killed, followed by the marsiya, noha, and soaz, breast-beatings and public processions.

Unfortunately we have forgotten the lessons from the conflicts of past between right and wrong, good and evil, truth and falsehood. The entire tragedy of Karbala for Muslims believers has become the way of remembering, mourning and cleansing their sins. Hardly any one thinks why the martyrs of Karbala are revered even today after 1400 years? No one thinks that it is because they stood up firm and solid against tyranny and injustice of the rulers of the time. In doing so they were mercilessly butchered, their heads were cut off, their dead bodies were trampled upon and left behind unburied on the desert sand, even their womenfolk and the children were brutalized. Later their bodies were buried at one place and their heads at another far away place.

The people who committed this heinous crime were not the idolaters or enemies of Islam but they were Muslims, the followers of Islam. They obeyed the most shameful and atrocious orders of their ruler in order to safeguard their personal interests, worldly gains and worldly power without realizing that they were destroying the Islamic values laid down by their Holy Prophet. In the craze of demonstrating their loyalty to the ruler they forgot that the people whom they were killing and dishonoring were the noble people of the house of their Prophet Mohammad.

(What an irony today we the mourners and breast – beaters of these martyrs instead of drawing lessons from this calamity and standing against injustices, we have totally submitted ourselves to the tyranny. We are worried how we would face the consequences of Baraat, social boycott and how and where our dead bodies would be buried after our death and who would take us to Jannat. Though the holy Prophet has commanded us: “When one sees a tyrant ruler committing forbidden acts, and going against the Book of Allah and yet does nothing to try and stop him by actions or by words, then this man deserves to go into the fires of hell.” Islam stands out as the religion of truth and peace for all; it condemns and rejects any kind of oppression and any form of injustice to any creature of Allah Almighty. And yet we brutally attack and torture even our own blood relations.)

Let us examine the circumstances, the factors and the characters responsible for this Moral Degeneration of Muslims just after 30 years of Islam from the authentic (?) historical accounts.

Historiography of actual happenings on the battlefield of Karbala:-

Let me quote Goethe once again:
“Not everything that history offers us has actually happened. And what has actually happened has not happened the way it is presented to us, and what we know to have happened is only a very small part of what actually happened. The historian can have no more information about the past events than what has been handed down to him as source-material.”

1) Abi Mikhnaf (774 AD) is considered the first historian to systematically collect the reports of eyewitnesses of the tragedy of Karbala (the place of death / martyrdom).
His account was published in the book form titled "Ketab Maqtal Al-Husayn", considered original and a part of Primary sources, has been lost.
What has reached to us today has been transmitted through his student Hisham Al-Kalbi (died in 204 AH.)

2) There are four manuscripts of the Maqtal, located at Gotha (No. 1836), Berlin (Sprenger, Nos. 159-160), Leiden (No. 792), and St. Petersburg (Am No. 78) libraries.

3) Rasul Jafarian has counted 5 Primary sources on the original works on maqàtil which are now available. These are sources that could be relied upon for reviewing the Karbala happenings.

4) All these five maqtals belong to the period between the 2nd century AH and 4th century AH. These five sources are:

a) "Maqtal al-Husayn" by Abu Mikhnaf,
b) "Maqtal al-Husayn" by Ibn Sa'd – a Sunni Historian
c) "Maqtal al-Husayn" by Baladhuri – a Sunni Historian
d) "Maqtal al-Husayn" by Dinawari, and
e) "Maqtal al-Husayn" of Ibn A'tham
.

Famous historian, Tabari has used Abi Mikhnaf’s account though he hasn't mentioned his Abi Mikhnaf’s name. Like Tabari the latter historians have written their histories on the basis of the original account by Maqtal Al-Husayn of Abi Mikhnaf. However they have added some narrations through their own sources.

Hisham Al-Kalbi and other Sunni Muslim historians including Balazari and Ibn Kathir narrated the events of Karbala from Abi Mikhnaf’s work. Also among Shi'a Shaykh al-Mufid has based his ‘Irshad’ on Abi-Mikhnaf’s account of history.
However, Shiane-Ali attached a much greater importance to the battle and have compiled many fabricated version of Abi Mekhnaf's book in Iran and Iraq.

Shia writings are classified in three groups:[52]

A) Religious texts: This category associates the chronological legendary character of history of Al-Husayn with notions relating to the origin of life and the Universe, that have preoccupied the human mind since the beginning of creation, and in which Al-Husayn is eternally present.
This category of writing holds that a person’s stance toward Al-Husayn and Ahl al- Bayt is a criterion for reward and punishment in the afterlife.

B) Historic texts: This category is the nearest to Sunni writings because it fully cherishes the historical personality of Al-Husayn and regards the Karbala’s incident as a revolt against oppression; dismissing the legendary treatment, while using the language of revolt against tyranny and despotic sovereignty.

C) Tragedic narratives intended for popular consumption, which may contain material not strictly supported by the Hadiths or the histories. This category comprises the literary works common in rituals and lamentations (poetic and prose) and is characterized by its melodramatic style, which aims to arouse pity and passion for Ahl al-Bayt’s misfortunes, and charge feelings during tempestuous political circumstances on the memory of Ashura.

To be Continued.............