Imam, Imamat and Bohras

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#31

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:42 pm

Few more options.

5. Become an atheist, don't give a shit about the condition of the bohras and prevent others from giving a shit.

6. Pretend to become an atheist, prevent others from giving a shit about the bohras because secretly you remain an idol-worshipping, kafir and or mushrik bohra SMS abde.

7. Try to reform the bohras from the outside with the help of online forums by demonstrating to the bohras that what they are doing is shirk, kufr and idol-worshipping and is haraam. People might end up calling you wahhabi, yazid-lover etc. etc. but don't give a shit about them fools.

8. Try to reform the bohras from the inside with the help of online forums by demonstrating to the bohras that what they are doing is shirk, kufr and idol-worshipping and is haraam. People might end up calling you wahhabi, yazid-lover etc. etc. but don't give a shit about them fools.

I am sure Al Zulfikar and others will be able to come up with a few more options.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#32

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:53 pm

anajmi wrote:Few more options.

5. Become an atheist, don't give a shit about the condition of the bohras and prevent others from giving a shit.

6. Pretend to become an atheist, prevent others from giving a shit about the bohras because secretly you remain an idol-worshipping, kafir and or mushrik bohra SMS abde.

7. Try to reform the bohras from the outside with the help of online forums by demonstrating to the bohras that what they are doing is shirk, kufr and idol-worshipping and is haraam. People might end up calling you wahhabi, yazid-lover etc. etc. but don't give a shit about them fools.

8. Try to reform the bohras from the inside with the help of online forums by demonstrating to the bohras that what they are doing is shirk, kufr and idol-worshipping and is haraam. People might end up calling you wahhabi, yazid-lover etc. etc. but don't give a shit about them fools.

I am sure Al Zulfikar and others will be able to come up with a few more options.
All that is being done right here on this forum. Carry on folks. 8) :lol:

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#33

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:56 pm

gladly!

9. start categorising people and show them how smart you are

10. lecture them and try hard to make them look like fools, whilst taking no affirmative actions yrself

11. lastly do all the above on a web forum which is inconsequential, irrelevant and useless and where nobody goes because they dont give a damn, except ct and fayyaz who also dont give a damn still but have an obsessive compulsion to do so.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#34

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:49 pm

12. Become a critical thinker and stop thinking altogether.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#35

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:00 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:gladly!

9. start categorising people and show them how smart you are

10. lecture them and try hard to make them look like fools, whilst taking no affirmative actions yrself

11. lastly do all the above on a web forum which is inconsequential, irrelevant and useless and where nobody goes because they dont give a damn, except ct and fayyaz who also dont give a damn still but have an obsessive compulsion to do so.
All that is already being done right here on this forum. Let's carry on! 8) :lol:

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#36

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:02 pm

13. Be part of Yazid-loving Wahhabi, AZ, SBM toli and frivolously respond to anyone whom you dislike coming here and upsetting nice anti-Bohra party. Thank you very much. :lol: :lol: :lol:

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#37

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:33 pm

anajmi wrote:You need to get this into your head that the bohras of today are not shia or even muslims. As you have agreed, they are now mired in kufr, shirk and idol-worship. So we first need to get the bohras straightened out. Get them out of their shirk, kufr and idol-worship back in shia-ism and then we take the next step.
They may not be Shia or even Muslims according to you. They will not agree with you. Personally, I do not care what they are. But even if they were, is that a crime? Is that illegal? (I am not talking about Wahhabilands or Pakistan).

I have not agreed anything, I agree that you believe that they are mired in kufr, shirk and idol-worship. They will not agree with you. Personally, I do not care whether they are so mired or not. But even if they were is that a crime? Is that illegal? (I am not talking about Wahhabilands or Pakistan).

If you want to criminalize them for what they believe, I suggest you migrate to a Wahhabiland or Pakistan. You are being un-American. No court in the United States will judge against them for practicing their beliefs.

Why are you losing sleep over them? Is it not enough that your God will judge them in the hereafter? Go to sleep. Be happy.
Last edited by fayyaaz on Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

zinger
Posts: 2201
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#38

Unread post by zinger » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:34 pm

Wow... that was some post, and i mean it with complete sincerity.

You did raise some extremely pertinent points here, i agree. And ofcourse, im assuming that you are speaking on your own behalf and not as or on behalf of the reformist cause.

i would like to point out certain points in your posts as i need clarity on some things you say, so please do allow me to do so

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Humsafar wrote:Birader,
I confess I know little of Fatimid literature and philosophy, but I'll not hesitate to join you and wallow in its glories till the end of time, when Qaim al Qiam will come, as promised by the said literature, and set this world right. Until such time what are we supposed to do? The Old Testament quote, "man does not live by bread alone" can very well be put on it's head, "man does not live by glories alone". It is a common defence mechanism to revert to the past and its greatness when the present fails to live up to the promise.
im sensing some contradiction here. on one hand, further down the post, you question these Fatimid beliefs, but here you are ready to, in your own words, "wallow in its glories till the end of time".. slight amount of confusion. Would you clarify what you mean here?
Humsafar wrote: The greatness of Fatimid philosophy is all fine and dandy, and I appreciate it as I do other intellectual and creative achievements of mankind as part of our common heritage. But all this begs the question, what has all this great Fatimid doctrine and philosophy resulted in? In Mufaddal Saifuddin? Isn't that a tragedy? Doesn't that call that boast of greatness into question? On the face of it, it would seem that SMS does not invalidate the Fatimid doctrine any more than ISIS invalidates the Quran. But if you give it a moment's thought, it actually does.
Why are you judging the authenticity of the philosophy by basing it on one man? Agreed, he may not be the best representative of Fatimid Theology, but arent you throwing out the baby with the bath water here?
Humsafar wrote: Imamat is central to Shia/Isamili beliefs. Let's accept that the necessity of divine guidance through the Imam can be traced to the Quran. Let us also accept that the Imam is infallible, and also accept other secondary attributes the Imam is supposed to have. Let's accept all that. Much in religious theology is purely at the level of beliefs, meaning it does not have practical implications in real life: like the belief in one god, or the holy trinity or ahlul bayt or Brahman the creator etc.
Yes, i completely agree with you, ultimately it all boils down to one simple word, FAITH
Humsafar wrote: But the concept of Imamat and the role of Imam is not a matter of pure, abstract belief. The Imam is the divine guide, right? His job is to guide? (Maula Ali and Imam Hussain stand out as sterling examples.) In present time would it be too impolite to ask where is the divine guide? Just believing in the existence of the Imam is not enough, because the more important belief attached to the Imam is that he is a guide, and divine to boot. So the believers who believe in the Imam but are contented with that Imam not divinely guiding them are not true to their beliefs. Are they? If the Imam exist then he must guide. If he exists and is not guiding then he is not doing his job. Of course, the Shias and Ismailis have thought out the answers to this dilemma by such devices as occultation, taqqiya etc. But one cursory look at their history will reveal that these explanation do not hold much water.
You know what Humsafar, while this is an extremely critical question and yes, i will agree it has often come in my mind too, dont you think you are asking this question to the completely wrong set of people? We have absolutely no clue where the Imam is and why he doesnt come out of Purdah. Its just an article of faith that we have accepted. Please dont look to us for answers, even if hypothetically, you will not find them here
Humsafar wrote: The other belief in Fatimid doctrine is that there can be only one Imam at any given time, and that he his divinely appointed. Again, one look at history and this belief - which has practical implications - also falls apart. The succession dispute right after Imam Jaffar us Sadiq (or was it after Imam Zain ul Abideen?) the belief in divine appointment of the Imam comes into question. Even if we were to ignore this discrepancy, we still have to deal with multiple Imams? That puts paid to the belief of one divine guide at any one given time. By rough count there are might be six or seven Imams in existence today and all claiming to be divinely appointed and divinely guided, and most of them are in hiding and not guiding, not doing the only job they are supposed to do.
Yes, it is possible. Logically speaking, HH Prince Aga Khan is of the same bloodline as that of Prophet Mohammad (SAW) so that does make him the Imam in the literal sense. But i would guess they would all make way for the one true one. just my hypothesis really
Humsafar wrote: As for Bohra dais and their succession drama down the ages, the less said the better.
True. Dai's are mortal men with feet of clay. i have accepted this now. But if there can be multiple Imams, then why not Dais'
Humsafar wrote: I point all this out not to mock Fatimid beliefs, but to show the dichotomy between belief and reality, between faith and praxis. The two Bohra Dais are wrangling it out in broad daylight and the Imam is blissfully absent. Isn't it the Imam according to our Bohra beliefs who should be appointing the dai? Then why is there a dispute? Why was there a dispute so many other times in the past? Obviously some "Dais" don't listen to the Imam, and the infallible and divinely guided Imam can do nothing about it. If that is the case, then the Imam and the belief in Imamat once again comes into question. Does it not cause Bohras today to wonder, where is their (Bohra) Imam? Doesn't it make you wonder? Why is their Imam allowing the community, once again, to go to pieces? Of course, we are told, there is some hikma in it. And that hikma will be revealed to us, if ever, when Qaim al Qiam comes. But by then it might be too late and that hikma would have no practical use, at least in the here and now where the likes of Mufaddal Saifuddin reign freely, (and where the likes of some pedantic, hyper-analytical, hair-splitting atheist will support their right to do so as long as they do not break the law).
Again, an extremely valid point, one that many of us have wondered on for some time now, but.... wrong question to the wrong people in the wrong place. yes, we believe it will be hikma, that is what faith is all about
Humsafar wrote: Given the mess we have inherited and are now openly witnessing, what is stopping you and other faithfuls from questioning the Imam and the belief in Imamat? This is not a trick question, I genuinely want to know. However. there are many who have already started questioning although not publicly for they fear being dubbed as heretic and wahabbi and what not. I do not discount that there are motivated anti-shia elements who have found an open wound here to turn the knife. Still, the stock reaction to call anyone who questions Imamat as anti-Bohra or wahabbi is to evade the issue. I see that you too have fallen into the trap of false categories and have started calling people anti-bohras and such.
There is a saying my friend, faith can move mountains. now assuming that faith is strong enough to move mountains, do you think it is weak enough to be disintegrated due to the current turmoil? i would think not. yes, i will admit my faith has been slightly shaky now and then, but it has persisted the test of time so far nonetheless
Humsafar wrote: Anyway, this post has turned out to be much longer than I intended, but before I end I want to stress that questioning the belief in Imamat does not amount to questioning the greatness of Fatimid literature and philosophy. You know much of that philosophy is not only abstract and esoteric but also outdated - and most of it today is confined to scholarly research and academia. Of course it has its value and place in the history of human development and it must be preserved and celebrated. But let us not forget that crooks like Mufaddal Saifuddin or a lesser culprit like Khuzema Qutbuddin are using the great Fatimid doctrine to prop up their nefarious regimes. The belief in Imamat cannot co-exist with what that belief has entailed: Mufaddal Saifuddin. The disconnect is too glaring to be ignored. And when this is pointed out, and no matter who is doing the pointing out, we can do better than get defensive.
i will have to disagree with you. Imamat is not a part of Fatimid philosophy, it is a part of Shia philosophy. i appreciate the fact that you have made your stand clear on this, but you must understand that philosophy, outdated and abstract and esoteric as it might be, is what has laid the foundations of this culture. i really dont think it can be done away with so easily. As for the second part of your post, yes, i agree it is being used like the carrot on the end of the stick for many of us. so... inspite of acknowledging this, why are we still trying to reach for it you may ask? simple. Faith. Faith in the concept of a silver lining and Hikma

I will be willing to take this conversation forward if you like, but i must warn you, compared to you, im a novice, so please do allow me to not be able to reply on certain topics, in which case i will admit it openly

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#39

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:43 pm

Humsafar,

If Imam is a problem to you what about God? He is hidden and the faithful believe all sorts of things about Him. What about angels? Nobody has seen them but belief in them is mandatory for a Muslim. Just as you let belief in God and angels be I suggest you let belief in hidden Imam be. It is not a crime or illegal to believe in a God, angels or hidden Imams.

The only thing you should be concerned with is if you are losing money in all this. If you are, then do not pay. Why does what Khuzema, Mufaddal and their followers believe bother you? Let them be. Go to sleep. Be happy.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#40

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:06 pm

Humsafar:

Yes, you have raised many interesting points and I would agree with a lot of what you say. In essence, I agree that there is a difference between what is possible in principal (egalitarian ideas in Quran) v/s what actually happens in practice (ISIS). This struggle continues and will continue. However, the existence of ISIS should not make us despair of the Quran itself.

In the same vein, the Fatimid and Ismaili doctrine are egalitarian. One only needs to read the Ikhwan as-Safa, or parts of it available now in libraries in translations, to understand this. Yes, Muffadul Saifuddin is a terrible person, who can't compare with this vision, but that does not invalidate the ideas laid out in the original literature. I feel that this schism in the Bohras is actually a natural thing, something which will happen every few hundred years, to purge the system of the accumulated cancer. DMMS is the current cancer, and during the time of SMB (RA) this cancer had already started. I am not sure who is to blame, but it is clear that the policies of the last few decades resulted in extremism, basically destroying the secular and liberal outlook of the community. Fanaticism has risen to immense levels. Perhaps part of this the result or counterpoint to modernity. Perhaps people need something to balance the loss of certainty that has come with rise of science and technology.

I feel that the reformists did lay out a foundation in which one could at least imagine a resistance to the tyranny of the Kothar. However, honestly, what S Qutbuddin did in less than a year, no one could have imagined. Ever. He has essentially, in his quiet but persistent way, laid out a path which is different than the path to hell which DMMS and his infernal mentors laid out. He is not a fanatic. I mean, his own daughter just wears a scarf and not the ridiculous rida. He is all about education, upliftment and consultation, and quietism. For one, I support him and his movement, as I personally feel that he may have something unique and new to offer. However, it may just be a mirage. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, I now agree more with fayyaaz that this board is infested with anti-Bohras. Oz is one more to that list. He claims this and that make him believe that bohras and heretics. He says "… Ismailis were in trouble due to the suspicion of heretic practices". I mean, how much more can a person be a self-hating Bohra? He is the worst fifth-columnist, a traitor and a self-hating person. I have no respect for such people, who pick and choose anti-Muslim and anit-Shia/Fatmid/Isamaili literature to bolster their own self-hatred. Freud would say this is a form of rebellion against ones father, and I wonder how many of these self-hating, anti-Borhas have messed up relationships with their fathers.

In any case, I am at least glad that people are arguing and talking in a decent manner, rather than the nasty invectives we have seen in the last few months here. Hopefully, we can raise the level of discourse and learn from each other. A part of this to ignore and not rile up the trolls, and let this become a true Bohra forum and not some playground for anti-Bohras.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#41

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:15 pm

They may not be Shia or even Muslims according to you. They will not agree with you.
Doesn't matter if they agree with me or not. I do not agree with you, but does it matter to you?
Personally, I do not care what they are.
Good. Then you should go to sleep and let us be.
But even if they were, is that a crime? Is that illegal?
You remember you said something about something being a crime in some places? So there you go.
Why are you losing sleep over them.
That is my problem. Why are you losing sleep over my problem?
Is it not enough that your God will judge them in the hereafter?
No that is not enough. Because God will be judging me too. He will ask me what I did to save the fools mired in shirk and kufr and idol-worship. If I listen to you, I am doomed. Thank God I don't listen to fools.

And now that you agree with me that bohras indulge in shirk and kufr and idol-worship, I am going to double my efforts to save them.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#42

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:18 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Humsafar,

If Imam is a problem to you what about God? He is hidden and the faithful believe all sorts of things about Him. What about angels? Nobody has seen them but belief in them is mandatory for a Muslim. Just as you let belief in God and angels be I suggest you let belief in hidden Imam be. It is not a crime or illegal to believe in a God, angels or hidden Imams.
My friend fayyaaz: I will let Humsafar answer this, but honestly one problem which I see with your approach is that you are unable to present a real solution or path forward. You keep saying that this and that belief is fine if it is legal. Yes, yes, yes. I agree with you! However, this is a Bohra forum, and we must make some axiomatic assumptions. For example, one must start by defining what we mean by being Bohra, on what basis we will evaluate claims, etc. Sadly, your approach makes it appear that it is okay to believe anything as long as it legal.

Perhaps you are not saying this, but I don't see that in any obvious way.

To address you question about gods, angels et. al. First, god may or may not exist. Religion certainly does. So, one may only have vague feelings about god, but one must deal with the reality of god-men, and the influence of religion in our lives. It is more than mere legalism. Yes, it is legal. But is it ethical? What are the best means of living ones life? How should one cohere socially? These questions are answered by religion, for about 90% of humanity. Having studied a lot of secular literature, I have yet to be convinced that secular, atheistic philosophies have anything to offer which can be justified in a rational way. Some weak attempts have been made by secular humanistst, but they are, honestly, insipid. But I may be wrong, and would be glad to learn otherwise from you,

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#43

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:21 pm

Biradar,

You didn't answer a single key question that Humsafar raised. In fact, as seen from your last few posts you have become a whiny baby. Grow up!!

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#44

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:33 pm

anajmi wrote:Biradar,

You didn't answer a single key question that Humsafar raised. In fact, as seen from your last few posts you have become a whiny baby. Grow up!!
Better to be a whiny baby than a mad fanatic mullah. Incidentally, I think you are loosing it. With no original ideas any more, you seem to be parroting back. Not unexpected from an unimaginative troll. Okay, please resume your ridiculous and pointless trolling. Regards, and have a nice night.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:39 pm

I feel that this schism in the Bohras is actually a natural thing, something which will happen every few hundred years, to purge the system of the accumulated cancer.
And that purged cancer become a different bohra sect. Well said!! Now let us take it to the beginning. I am sure you get the point.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#46

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:06 am

anajmi wrote:
Is it not enough that your God will judge them in the hereafter?
No that is not enough. Because God will be judging me too. He will ask me what I did to save the fools mired in shirk and kufr and idol-worship. If I listen to you, I am doomed.
Transparent Wahhabi talk.

"God will punish me if I don't save Bohras, I will do that even if I have to kill them before they commit more shirk, kufr and idol-worship. Otherwise poor Bohras will suffer even more divine punishment."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#47

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:14 am

Please don't say that you will kill bohras. Islam prohibits killing of innocents. If you kill innocents, they might be forgiven and you will be punished. Oh, but you are an atheist right? Well, at least remember that it is illegal as per the laws of the US government and they will punish you.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#48

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:16 am

anajmi wrote:
I feel that this schism in the Bohras is actually a natural thing, something which will happen every few hundred years, to purge the system of the accumulated cancer.
And that purged cancer become a different bohra sect. Well said!! Now let us take it to the beginning. I am sure you get the point.
Actually, one of the great modern cancers is extremist Islam, as represented by ISIS, mad fanatic Salafis and Wahabbis. It appears you hold the same view as these fanatics, perhaps, though, are yet to pick up knife and behead someone. I would take a Bohra, of any sect, over these blood-thirsty demons. Going by the self-tooting you are doing here, I think we should give you an award. Or a gold star or something. You are the self-declared Savior of the Bohras. Are you sure you are not the Imam? Come on, fess up.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#49

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:33 am

Unfortunately for you guys, I am none of that. And you and I both know that. But that makes it that much more difficult for you to digest. Well, we all have our weaknesses, some of us are weaker than others and get beat down all the time. It happens when you are always bent with folded hands in front of other weak humans. When none of our great Ismaili literature comes to our aid. When our Imam has deserted us. When our Dais are too busy filling their coffers. When all we see around us is purged cancer. So we tend to create straw men and then choose to beat them down instead. And you guys should know by now that beating the straw man doesn't actually beat the man. The man is still standing.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#50

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:09 am

Allah, Quran and the Hidden Imam are not all that relevant to Bohras just like they are not really relevant for most Muslims. I have explained all that before.

Yes they may invoke Allah and Quran in their lives but purely as linguistic expressions. What appears relevant are rituals like namaaz, reciting the Quran without understanding, roza, hajj, visiting the cemeteries etc.

Ancient Muslim literature including Ismaili literature is even less relevant to them. Yes, Mullas may quote from them and the faithful may listen but that is just more of a ritual. It is just like a Bohra Mulla reciting a long prologue in non-understandable Arabic to his lisaan-e-daawat bayans.

What is important to Bohra Mullas is walayat, which is absolute devotion to their Leader. Just listen to their bayaans. Most are litanies of how the 'true' followers of Daawat from Adam onward to present day have sacrificed themselves, their families and their wealth in devoted service of the Leader. Their bayaans are preceded by more of the same, madehs or marsiyas interspersed with maatam and followed by maatam. Bayans are followed by namaaz and prayers for long life of the Leader. Then, of course, there is jaman. Devoted Bohras, khidmatguzaars, are busy arranging all this all their lives. Where in this scheme of things, does medieval literature fit in? No where. That literature has the same relevance as Allah, Quran and Imam for them. Almost none.

So, if you want to be the proverbial whistle-blower saying "The emperor has no clothes", be my guest and shout yourself hoarse on this forum. In any case, voices of anti-Bohras on an on-line forum are unlikely to be heeded. Anti-Kothar Bohras participating in the community will have to take the lead in Reform. These have to be identified in real life out there and begin to join together for that purpose. These Bohras may discuss the relevance of Ismaili literature to their efforts just like Ikhawanus Safa did in the medieval times. Ignorant anti-Bohras are totally irrelevant to that effort.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#51

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:37 am

fayyaaz wrote:Allah, Quran and the Hidden Imam are not all that relevant to Bohras just like they are not really relevant for most Muslims. I have explained all that before.

Yes they may invoke Allah and Quran in their lives but purely as linguistic expressions. What appears relevant are rituals like namaaz, reciting the Quran without understanding, roza, hajj, visiting the cemeteries etc.

Ancient Muslim literature including Ismaili literature is even less relevant to them. Yes, Mullas may quote from them and the faithful may listen but that is just more of a ritual. It is just like a Bohra Mulla reciting a long prologue in non-understandable Arabic to his lisaan-e-daawat bayans.

What is important to Bohra Mullas is walayat, which is absolute devotion to their Leader. Just listen to their bayaans. Most are litanies of how the 'true' followers of Daawat from Adam onward to present day have sacrificed themselves, their families and their wealth in devoted service of the Leader. Their bayaans are preceded by more of the same, madehs or marsiyas interspersed with maatam and followed by maatam. Bayans are followed by namaaz and prayers for long life of the Leader. Then, of course, there is jaman. Devoted Bohras, khidmatguzaars, are busy arranging all this all their lives. Where in this scheme of things, does medieval literature fit in? No where. That literature has the same relevance as Allah, Quran and Imam for them. Almost none.
Thank you for that vivid and wonderful explanation. First you agreed that the bohras indulge in shirk, kufr and idol-worship and now you have provided the details as to how and why. Apparently, this "walayat" seems to be the main reason for this problem. But, I want to thank you for your post. The next time someone asks me why I refer to bohras as mushriks or idol-worshippers, I am going to quote your above post. Thanks again.

abde53
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#52

Unread post by abde53 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:40 am

Allah, Quran and the Hidden Imam are not all that relevant to Bohras just like they are not really relevant for most Muslims
Fayyaz Bhai
I do not which bohras you speak for but you do not speak for me, they may not relevent to you as you are a aethist but by using such words you are proving people like Anajmi -SBM-OZ that bohras are Mushrik. Hidden Imam may not be relevent to most muslims (Sunnis only) but Allah and Quran is relevent to all muslims
I hope Biradar bhai does not agree with your assertion since he has praised you in so many ways

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#53

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:46 am

Bravo Fayyaz
I finally agree with your analysis of Bohra for whom Dai is more important then Allah-Quran and Sunnah. As it witnessed in Majlis that they finish Salah in less than a minute and then stand up and continue doing Maatam for next 30 minutes and sing the praises of the Syedna Ghano Jivo Ghano Jivo
I wonder if Biradar agrees with this analysis about Bohras since he has shown his great respect for your views.
I wonder now if the rest of Abdes may call you WAHABI too :mrgreen:
Which category would you fit yourself in :D

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#54

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:48 am

fayyaaz wrote: I do not find it beyond belief that he does good work in real life. Most people do. The least they do is look after their families.

talk of grudging, underhanded praise! you are one mean, stingy, nasty person who does not even have the grace and generosity of spirit to find it in himself to atleast unstintingly give credit instead of diluting it!

I wonder how he proposes to bring the Shia and Sunni together. He does not display much scholarship about either branch of Islam on this forum.

i wonder how YOU are furthering the cause of reform with your useless lecturing from an atheist pulpit. sbm is not your foot-licking minion that he has to follow your bidding! and who cares about islamic knowledge from someone who gives a damn about it??

Perhaps he can demonstrate his reconciliation skills by reconciling Bohras and anti-Bohras on this forum for a start.

who the hell are you that you demand that anyone demonstrates anything to you??! all you are good for is categorisation, pray continue with that tremendously important activity. without which there will be no reform.

now go back to sucking your thumb and soiling your diapers.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#55

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:52 am

abde53 wrote: Allah and Quran is relevent to all muslims
But of course they are. As I have explained they swear by them. That is the extent of their relevance to them. Purely linguistic and ritualistic. It is not the Quran, but a local Mulla who will tell a Muslim what it, the Quran, says that may be more relevant. I have explained all that before. Just look at your life as an 'abde'. Do you know Quranic Arabic to make the book relevant to you personally? What about Allah? Do you know anything about Him that has impacted you personally are or you just repeating things about Him that you were indoctrinated with?

I advise you to tear yourself away from the Yazid-loving Wahhabi and his minion SBM. You are making yourself too closely associated with them. If you remain this way, I will lump you among anti-Bohras.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#56

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:55 am

AZ,

Control yourself. Unlike your pal, Yazid-loving Wahhabi, anajmi, I have not expressed any personal agenda about Reform of the Bohras. All I am saying is that I would leave them alone.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#57

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:58 am

I wonder if Biradar agrees with this analysis by Fayyaz about Bohras since he has shown his great respect for his views too
Bro Biradar has a deep understanding of Fatimid literature and its connections to the Quran. Which is why bhai Biradar is not so easily convinced with the existence of Allah. The evidence that people give today might've been enough a thousand years ago but it is definitely not sufficient now. And that is what the deep understanding has taught him. Ask for more proof for Allah but Imam and Dai is ok. Hence he is already a mushrik.

And the poor guy is actually in deeper trouble cause all the deep understanding has left him with two choices. The bohras or the ISIS. And both cancerous according to him. If I had two choices of cancer, I would choose the milder one too.

Fortunately, I don't have the deep understanding of Fatimid literature that he does and have more choices.
Last edited by anajmi on Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abde53
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#58

Unread post by abde53 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:00 pm

I advise you to tear yourself away from the Yazid-loving Wahhabi and his minion SBM. You are making yourself too closely associated with them. If you remain this way, I will lump you among anti-Bohras.
Thank you for your advice but i will pass i rather have someone who believes in Allah and Quran then some one who is double talker atheist.
as far as lumping me among anti bohra Go ahead have your jollies because that is the only thing you are good at.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#59

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:16 pm

fayyaaz wrote:AZ,

Control yourself. Unlike your pal, Yazid-loving Wahhabi, anajmi, I have not expressed any personal agenda about Reform of the Bohras. All I am saying is that I would leave them alone.
Really so you will defend the rights of SMS abdes but anyone who disagrees with their corrupt practice of Bohra faith you would label them as Wahabi and try to categorize them, What a hypocrite?
It seems your personal agenda is set by your masters in Saifee Mahal to label and categorize all the people on this forum who expose the Yazidi practices of SMS and his goons. and defend them and I think you are doing a good job and if you really need a job evaluation for a promotion to become NKD we can provide

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#60

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:28 pm

zinger wrote: im sensing some contradiction here. on one hand, further down the post, you question these Fatimid beliefs, but here you are ready to, in your own words, "wallow in its glories till the end of time".. slight amount of confusion. Would you clarify what you mean here?
I'm not questioning anything. What I'm saying is that in the light of history and recent dispute over daiship the belief in Imam and Imamat comes into question.
zinger wrote:Why are you judging the authenticity of the philosophy by basing it on one man? Agreed, he may not be the best representative of Fatimid Theology, but arent you throwing out the baby with the bath water here?
That one man is the latest example in the long line of schisms and factions. If we have to throw out the bathwater every few centuries then there must be something wrong with the baby.
zinger wrote:You know what Humsafar, while this is an extremely critical question and yes, i will agree it has often come in my mind too, dont you think you are asking this question to the completely wrong set of people? We have absolutely no clue where the Imam is and why he doesnt come out of Purdah. Its just an article of faith that we have accepted. Please dont look to us for answers, even if hypothetically, you will not find them here
I'm raising the question generally, not asking any particular set of people. You say it often comes to your mind then you are at some level questioning your belief. The faith in Imamat requires the Imam to be present and be guiding you. But he is missing for centuries and not doing his job and you still accept him as an article of faith. Why? We must at least start asking questions. Answers will come.
zinger wrote:True. Dai's are mortal men with feet of clay. i have accepted this now. But if there can be multiple Imams, then why not Dais'
That is exactly my point. There can't be multiple Imams, that is a doctrinal impossibility. That there are puts the whole concept of Imamat in the dock (and that has been the burden of my post). Dais are small fry, they don't even matter when the whole business of Imamat is in question.
zinger wrote:Again, an extremely valid point, one that many of us have wondered on for some time now, but.... wrong question to the wrong people in the wrong place. yes, we believe it will be hikma, that is what faith is all about
As I said so many times, faith in Imamat is not an abstract belief. It entails action, and the Imam is missing in action.
zinger wrote:There is a saying my friend, faith can move mountains. now assuming that faith is strong enough to move mountains, do you think it is weak enough to be disintegrated due to the current turmoil? i would think not. yes, i will admit my faith has been slightly shaky now and then, but it has persisted the test of time so far nonetheless
Good. Crisis of faith is a good thing, it may someday lead to truth.
zinger wrote:i will have to disagree with you. Imamat is not a part of Fatimid philosophy, it is a part of Shia philosophy. i appreciate the fact that you have made your stand clear on this, but you must understand that philosophy, outdated and abstract and esoteric as it might be, is what has laid the foundations of this culture. i really dont think it can be done away with so easily. As for the second part of your post, yes, i agree it is being used like the carrot on the end of the stick for many of us. so... inspite of acknowledging this, why are we still trying to reach for it you may ask? simple. Faith. Faith in the concept of a silver lining and Hikma
Correct, Imamat is part of Shia theology. By Fatimid philosophy I meant the great effulgence of intellectual thought and inquiry during the Fatimid period of which Ikhwan us Safa was a part. That philosophy is esoteric. Even the Ismaili/Fatimid take on Imamat is arcane and cryptic, but that is another discussion.
zinger wrote:I will be willing to take this conversation forward if you like, but i must warn you, compared to you, im a novice, so please do allow me to not be able to reply on certain topics, in which case i will admit it openly
Sure. I too have a lot to learn.