Imam, Imamat and Bohras

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#61

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:30 pm

Isn't it ironic that the only two participants, Yazid-loving Wahhabi and his minion, intellectually challenged SBM are most, and perhaps the only ones, interested in my views. These are the ones who wanted me restricted on this forum.

I know that in those two at least I have a ready audience. :lol:

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#62

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:33 pm

fayyaaz wrote:AZ,

Control yourself. Unlike your pal, Yazid-loving Wahhabi, anajmi, I have not expressed any personal agenda about Reform of the Bohras. All I am saying is that I would leave them alone.
how dare you lecture me, you dimwit? you were probably not even born before i took on the first goonda amil and made him piss in his hijaar. as for your ill-informed 'assumptions', the less said about them the better. anajmi is not my pal in the sense that i am not his supporter. he has his views and i have mine. with these types of prejudicial comments, you are finally showing your real, ugly face. where is that false mask of scholarly analysis and categorisation now? had to drop it when cornered?

as for your statement that "I have not expressed any personal agenda about Reform of the Bohras", then why the hell are you here? to support reforms or to run them down and denigrate them? to heap abuse on this forum and demonstrate your superior intellect, which is all sound and fury signifying nothing? you are not concerned about reform, you are not concerned about religion, you dont give a damn about ethics or morality, all you are concerned about is legality, that too as per the laws of US. since it is legal for any anti/ex/non/aspiring/abde (and perhaps many other stupid classifications of bohras you have created from your fertile imagination), to criticise you, then whats your problem? why are YOU foaming at the mouth?

admin, this entire thread has veered away from bohras and reform to an expose' on the pseudo scholar, self-glorifying useless arguments of an atheist fayyaz. please shift it away from bohras and reform to a more appropriate forum.


SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#63

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:35 pm

Fayya
hese are the ones who wanted me restricted on this forum.
Any proof
Biradar and Zinger will call me a broken record but again Fayyaz is providing accusation without proof. May be Admin can chime in and let us know if anyone of us asked Admin to ban this resident profiler and let us separate facts and fiction

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#64

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:37 pm

SBM wrote:Bravo Fayyaz

Which category would you fit yourself in :D
Hey, I am the creator of these categories. I stand beyond them. That is like being God. He is the Creator but He is not of the Creation.

Wait for the shouts of arrogance, shirk, blah, blah, blah...... :lol: :lol: :lol:

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#65

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:39 pm

^
Only an atheist can call himself a god. good going at least you have Biradar on your corner

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#66

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:40 pm

Biradar wrote:Humsafar:

Yes, you have raised many interesting points and I would agree with a lot of what you say. In essence, I agree that there is a difference between what is possible in principal (egalitarian ideas in Quran) v/s what actually happens in practice (ISIS). This struggle continues and will continue. However, the existence of ISIS should not make us despair of the Quran itself.

In the same vein, the Fatimid and Ismaili doctrine are egalitarian. One only needs to read the Ikhwan as-Safa, or parts of it available now in libraries in translations, to understand this. Yes, Muffadul Saifuddin is a terrible person, who can't compare with this vision, but that does not invalidate the ideas laid out in the original literature. I feel that this schism in the Bohras is actually a natural thing, something which will happen every few hundred years, to purge the system of the accumulated cancer. DMMS is the current cancer, and during the time of SMB (RA) this cancer had already started. I am not sure who is to blame, but it is clear that the policies of the last few decades resulted in extremism, basically destroying the secular and liberal outlook of the community. Fanaticism has risen to immense levels. Perhaps part of this the result or counterpoint to modernity. Perhaps people need something to balance the loss of certainty that has come with rise of science and technology.

I feel that the reformists did lay out a foundation in which one could at least imagine a resistance to the tyranny of the Kothar. However, honestly, what S Qutbuddin did in less than a year, no one could have imagined. Ever. He has essentially, in his quiet but persistent way, laid out a path which is different than the path to hell which DMMS and his infernal mentors laid out. He is not a fanatic. I mean, his own daughter just wears a scarf and not the ridiculous rida. He is all about education, upliftment and consultation, and quietism. For one, I support him and his movement, as I personally feel that he may have something unique and new to offer. However, it may just be a mirage. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, I now agree more with fayyaaz that this board is infested with anti-Bohras. Oz is one more to that list. He claims this and that make him believe that bohras and heretics. He says "… Ismailis were in trouble due to the suspicion of heretic practices". I mean, how much more can a person be a self-hating Bohra? He is the worst fifth-columnist, a traitor and a self-hating person. I have no respect for such people, who pick and choose anti-Muslim and anit-Shia/Fatmid/Isamaili literature to bolster their own self-hatred. Freud would say this is a form of rebellion against ones father, and I wonder how many of these self-hating, anti-Borhas have messed up relationships with their fathers.

In any case, I am at least glad that people are arguing and talking in a decent manner, rather than the nasty invectives we have seen in the last few months here. Hopefully, we can raise the level of discourse and learn from each other. A part of this to ignore and not rile up the trolls, and let this become a true Bohra forum and not some playground for anti-Bohras.
Birader,
You have addressed everything but the elephant in the room.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#67

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:59 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Biradar wrote:Humsafar:
…..
Birader,
You have addressed everything but the elephant in the room.
It is not an elephant, actually. During the time of satar, i.e. when the Imam is in seclusion, one must follow the da'i. That is it. Allah has given you intellect. You must use that to choose between right and wrong. Imam can't hand hold you during these times. Otherwise, free-will would be pointless. Which da'i you choose (which you must to remain a Bohra) is up to you. I understand that some small fraction of reformist don't believe that the da'i al-mutlaq exists any more. They can't be called Bohras. However, you yourself, and bulk of the progressives, from what I understand, accept the office of da'i al-mutlaq. So, the question is: who do you consider is the rightful da'i at present? No need to beat around the bush, just pick one. As I said, you don't need to follow him 100%, just like you did not follow SBM (RA), even though in principal you accepted he was da'i al-mutlaq.

Now, lets ask the question: where is Allah when millions were being slaughtered in the world-wars, then in Gulags and then the several genocides of the last century. Why could Allah not stop this? That is a very big elephant, which needs addressing first. Personally, I don't expect anyone but us to solve out problems. But, you seem to want a savior. You will keep waiting, as people have for millennia.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#68

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:05 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Humsafar,
If Imam is a problem to you what about God? He is hidden and the faithful believe all sorts of things about Him. What about angels? Nobody has seen them but belief in them is mandatory for a Muslim. Just as you let belief in God and angels be I suggest you let belief in hidden Imam be. It is not a crime or illegal to believe in a God, angels or hidden Imams.

The only thing you should be concerned with is if you are losing money in all this. If you are, then do not pay. Why does what Khuzema, Mufaddal and their followers believe bother you? Let them be. Go to sleep. Be happy.
The belief in God and Angles is an abstract belief, they are abstract concepts. The belief in Prophethood is not abstract because the Prophet existed. The belief in Imamat is not abstract because Imams have historically existed, they are flesh and blood entities. They are, or supposed to be, concrete realities. Further, the belief is about Imams, not hidden Imams. Hidden Imams are oddities, if not the very antithesis of the premise and promise on which the whole structure of Imamat is based. That premise and promise is that there will always be a divinely appointed Imam to guide the faithful. That whole belief structure must come into question when that Imam is missing or is in hiding.

The question is are you losing any money on this? If not then, why poke your nose. Let us be. And actually if anyone it should be you who must go to sleep and be happy. You're as relevant to this forum as a matchstick in hell.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#69

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:19 pm

Humsafar wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:Humsafar,
If Imam is a problem to you what about God? He is hidden and the faithful believe all sorts of things about Him. What about angels? Nobody has seen them but belief in them is mandatory for a Muslim. Just as you let belief in God and angels be I suggest you let belief in hidden Imam be. It is not a crime or illegal to believe in a God, angels or hidden Imams.

The only thing you should be concerned with is if you are losing money in all this. If you are, then do not pay. Why does what Khuzema, Mufaddal and their followers believe bother you? Let them be. Go to sleep. Be happy.
The belief in God and Angles is an abstract belief, they are abstract concepts. The belief in Prophethood is not abstract because the Prophet existed. The belief in Imamat is not abstract because Imams have historically existed, they are flesh and blood entities. They are, or supposed to be, concrete realities. Further, the belief is about Imams, not hidden Imams. Hidden Imams are oddities, if not the very antithesis of the premise and promise on which the whole structure of Imamat is based. That premise and promise is that there will always be a divinely appointed Imam to guide the faithful. That whole belief structure must come into question when that Imam is missing or is in hiding.

The question is are you losing any money on this? If not then, why poke your nose. Let us be. And actually if anyone it should be you who must go to sleep and be happy. You're as relevant to this forum as a matchstick in hell.

Why is a Hidden Imam an oddity? Bohra belief is that he has vouchsafed his authority to a Dai, while he himself has withdrawn from the everyday goings-on in the world. Earlier we discussed this issue and I pointed out that Prophet had authorized Ali and some others to speak for him when he himself could not be present. That, in principle, is what is the case with the Hidden Imam. He has been away so long that he is now irrelevant except for having his name invoked in prayers. Mainstream Shia live with this view and so do Bohras.

I am here to point out how pointlessness of the current path your enterprise. I am saying let Bohras be and let them sort out their problems themselves. Most participants here are anti-Bohras. They are having their say although they are irrelevant. You do not object to them. Why object to me if I am similarly irrelevant?

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#70

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:21 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Allah, Quran and the Hidden Imam are not all that relevant to Bohras just like they are not really relevant for most Muslims. I have explained all that before.

Yes they may invoke Allah and Quran in their lives but purely as linguistic expressions. What appears relevant are rituals like namaaz, reciting the Quran without understanding, roza, hajj, visiting the cemeteries etc.

Ancient Muslim literature including Ismaili literature is even less relevant to them. Yes, Mullas may quote from them and the faithful may listen but that is just more of a ritual. It is just like a Bohra Mulla reciting a long prologue in non-understandable Arabic to his lisaan-e-daawat bayans.
….

These have to be identified in real life out there and begin to join together for that purpose. These Bohras may discuss the relevance of Ismaili literature to their efforts just like Ikhawanus Safa did in the medieval times. Ignorant anti-Bohras are totally irrelevant to that effort.
My friend fayyaaz: I think you are mistaken here. There are two aspects to an individual's life. An inner one, and an outer one. The inner one may be weak or non-existent in many people, but it is not in all. For example, many people do fast, pray, give zakaat, go to hadjj, etc. Yes, they may be doing this ritualistically, but it may give them inner peace and contentment. I have personally felt this many times. Of course, religion does not have a monopoly on these "inner revelations", as one may put it. Art, science and mathematics (among others) can also elicit such feelings.

The second aspect is outward. It is mainly concerned with social structures, and maintaining social cohesion. Jamaans, majlis etc are a small part of this. Now, it is possible that most people find the jamaan and socializing most satisfying. Which is a natural human thing. However, in religious communities, religion provides a basic framework to organize these. Of course, 90% of the people who participate may not understand the deeper reasons on why they are doing this, or even think about Allah or Quran while munching down biryani, but that does not mean that these concepts are meaningless.

A rough analogy: we use cell phones, which transmit signals via electromagnetic waves. Obviously, 99.999% of user don't give a damn about Maxwell's equation which govern such phenomena. That does not mean these equations are not important, or, more importantly, form the fundamental basis on how such devices are designed. I think Allah and Quran are such for most of us. We may not think of them too often, or even understand them in depth, but that does not mean that they are not important in our lives. They form a background, a matrix in which we, as religious people, exist.

Another way to put this is: what would happen if 90% or Muslims suddenly became convinced one day that Allah does not exist, or the Quran is full of falsehoods? Islam would disappear. Yes, for a while there would some people who would keep on pretending for social reasons (as some liberal church members do), but eventually, there would not be any matrix to hold together these people, and they would dissipate. Honestly, I am not sure I like that idea, as secularism does not necessarily mean liberalism, as we have seen in communist countries.

As to the question about literature: yes, I agree that most of it is unknown to most people. However, again, it does not mean that it is irrelevant. I personally feel, as you point out, that a few people at least, should be aware of this and understand how the ideas incorporated in these medieval books can be used to further progress. We can't all become atheists and burn down all our old literature. Sadly, my observation is that most people who leave religion are unable to articulate why they consider such and such an action good or bad. You yourself are (seemingly) obsessed with legalism, and are yet to offer any concrete means by which you evaluate claims (beside legal/illegal).

But yes, anti-bohras are pointless to the exercise of reform.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#71

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:22 pm

Biradar wrote:
Humsafar wrote: Birader,
You have addressed everything but the elephant in the room.
It is not an elephant, actually. During the time of satar, i.e. when the Imam is in seclusion, one must follow the da'i. That is it. Allah has given you intellect. You must use that to choose between right and wrong. Imam can't hand hold you during these times. Otherwise, free-will would be pointless. Which da'i you choose (which you must to remain a Bohra) is up to you. I understand that some small fraction of reformist don't believe that the da'i al-mutlaq exists any more. They can't be called Bohras. However, you yourself, and bulk of the progressives, from what I understand, accept the office of da'i al-mutlaq. So, the question is: who do you consider is the rightful da'i at present? No need to beat around the bush, just pick one. As I said, you don't need to follow him 100%, just like you did not follow SBM (RA), even though in principal you accepted he was da'i al-mutlaq.
Part of my answer you will find in my response to fayyaz's post. Your response "During the time of satar, i.e. when the Imam is in seclusion, one must follow the da'i." is quite facetious. The question is not who you should follow in the time of satar. The question is why satar at all. You cannot have it both ways: That you accept Imamat as the central pillar of faith and then be Okay with the central character of that faith missing in action.
And if you have to invoke free-will and intellect then why do even need a Dai?
Biradar wrote:Now, lets ask the question: where is Allah when millions were being slaughtered in the world-wars, then in Gulags and then the several genocides of the last century. Why could Allah not stop this? That is a very big elephant, which needs addressing first. Personally, I don't expect anyone but us to solve out problems. But, you seem to want a savior. You will keep waiting, as people have for millennia.
Yes, that big elephant must be addressed, too but here we are talking a particular, specific article of faith that entails concrete action. God is an abstract entity.
No, I don't want a saviour, please. Again, the concept of Imamat is not being about a saviour but about a guide.

abde53
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#72

Unread post by abde53 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:24 pm

During the time of satar, i.e. when the Imam is in seclusion, one must follow the da'i. That is it. Allah has given you intellect
Biradar Bhai
Allaha has given us intelligent but are not we Bohras are told that we are not intelligent enough to understand the translation and meaning of Quran and we are discouraged to read the translation and this practice has been going since the 51st Dai Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA.
So if I understand you do I use my intelligent to decide who is my new Dai, Is not in our belief it is Imam's job to appoint the right dai and as a follower of Imam we are guided by his decision.
Now coming to having two Dais how do I to decide who is the right Dai when 99% of Bohras feel that Moula Muffadal is the right Dai and only 1% feel Sydi Qutbuddin is the right and both of them have agreed to let a Hindu Judge decide so where is Imam in all these if both these Dais are going to accept the judgement of a Hindu Judge
Do you think Imam made the mistake by not coming hard on both the Dais and telling them not to confuse his (Imam) followers

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#73

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:40 pm

Friend Humsafar: The central character in the faith is not missing in action. He is present, but in seclusion. The da'i al-mutlaq operates with the same authority as the Imam (while he is in seclusion). So, he is the divinely appointed guide during this time. The fundamental defining aspect of Bohras is this belief. You can reject it, of course, but that, by definition, takes you out of the set of Bohras.

The question of why satar at all is a complex one. I don't know. In our cosmogony, for vast swathes of time the Imam is in seclusion. For example, from the time of Ebrahim to the Prophet Mohammad, the mustakar Imams were in seclusion. The incidence of Ebrahim being ready to sacrifice his son is an allusion to this. After the prophet, the Imams were manifest only for a short time, and Imam Mohammad bin Ismail and a three of his descendants went into seclusion. Imam Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah did zuhur, but then again in a relatively short while, Imam Tayyeb when into seclusion.

We can ask why till the cows come home, or our houses burn down. However, the question we are faced with now is: how do we continue to maintain our traditions and beliefs at present. At present, we are facing a crisis, in which we have one party turning the community into a bunch of fanatics baboons, and the other powerless to much to dent the Goliath's machine. The progressive have done great work, but they have ultimately been unsuccessful in the larger Bohra community. There is a chance for change now, and I believe we should support it.

Of course, one may choose, in dejection and frustration, to leave completely, become Sunni, or an atheist or an anti-Bohra. We all can't do that, or that will be the end of the community as we know it. That is all I am saying. Yes, yes, we must ask where the Imam is. But he is not around at present, and so we must choose what to do in his absence, rather than lament and wring our hands in helplessness.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#74

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:16 pm

But he is not around at present, and so we must choose what to do in his absence, rather than lament and wring our hands in helplessness.
And how do you propose to do that since one Dai is living Yazidi life style and other is too weak to do anything and your friend thinks this forum and progressives are insignificant to make dent
So let us hear some ideas and solution to this dilemma rather then to just blow hot air and categorizing.
I read the mission statement of this forum and no where it says that it wants to change Bohras faith system but to expose the excess and corruption in the community and people have been doing that except when some big mouth walks in and start demeaning the entire forum as irrelevant and insignificant and divert the topic to irrelevant posts of labeling the people.Does it matter if those exposes are made by Ex Bohras, Anti Bohras, Anti Kothar Bohras, Anti Kothar Ex Bohras etc etc etc or for that reason Wahabis, If an Atheist can have free hand expressing his view and demean the Bohras by saying that Bohras do not believe in Allaha and Quran and give more importance to Dai then why not Wahabis (some one's imagination) be allowed to express their views and we as Shia should be able to counter their view points and show them the righteous ways,-- a job which should be done by Dai and his surrogates but both of them are busy fighting in court to control the riches of the ill gotten community money and wealth and of course power
Lets walk the talk show us your solution , Joining SKQ is not the answer since you said yourself he is too weak and we do not know if he is going to make any changes or it will be status-qua if he becomes the Dai.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#75

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:25 pm

abde53 wrote:
During the time of satar, i.e. when the Imam is in seclusion, one must follow the da'i. That is it. Allah has given you intellect
Biradar Bhai
Allaha has given us intelligent but are not we Bohras are told that we are not intelligent enough to understand the translation and meaning of Quran and we are discouraged to read the translation and this practice has been going since the 51st Dai Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA.
So if I understand you do I use my intelligent to decide who is my new Dai, Is not in our belief it is Imam's job to appoint the right dai and as a follower of Imam we are guided by his decision.
Now coming to having two Dais how do I to decide who is the right Dai when 99% of Bohras feel that Moula Muffadal is the right Dai and only 1% feel Sydi Qutbuddin is the right and both of them have agreed to let a Hindu Judge decide so where is Imam in all these if both these Dais are going to accept the judgement of a Hindu Judge
Do you think Imam made the mistake by not coming hard on both the Dais and telling them not to confuse his (Imam) followers
My friend abde53:

First, I think you are mistaken when you say that Bohras are told that they are not intelligent enough to understand the Quran, or read a translation. Please point to one written or audio bayaan or SBM (RA) in which he says this explicitly. Yes, I agree that some Amils and jaamia graduates may have said these things. But SMB (RA) or STS (RA) have not.

Now, in hindsight, we can see that the corruption of the jaamia and from that the Amils begun several decades ago, when some infernal brothers of SMB (RA) (in particular Yusuf Najmuddin) and then later his children took over the administration of the dawaat. It is not surprising that these nefarious elements wanted the Bohras to remain in ignorance and did their best to create a system in which knowledge was kept locked away, and control centralized in their hands.

But this is a corruption of the system. Let me give you a small example. There was a very prominent gentleman who educated himself and started a magazine, called Nasim-e-Sahar. This man was not jaamia educated, not from the family of the da'i, or an Amil. Yet, he was deeply respected by STS (RA) and then SMB (RA). As times changed and infernal elements got control of the dawaat, people like him were humiliated and driven to despair. STS (RA)'s own son did baraat (unsuccessfully) against this man, essentially destroying his self-esteem and eventually he died in a few years after. One may ask why? Now, looking back, we see that the roots of evil were already planted, and the elimination of self-educated scholars was one manifestation of this.

So, in short: when someone tells you are stupid and should not study on your own, ask them for proof from the explicit bayaans of SMB (RA) and STS (RA). Yes, one should take sabaak and learn in a traditional manner, but there is no harm in self-study also. Otherwise, how come there were such highly respected scholars in the community, who could start such magazines?

As to the question of the court case. The case is not about who the da'i is. The case is about who gets control of the community properties. You may say this is such a greedy thing for S. Qutbuddin to do. Why does he want properties? Actually, he does not. The reality of the matter is that he sees a terrible injustice being done to common Bohras as he sees an usurper has taken his rightful place. Even if S. Qutbuddin looses (as he likely will) it does not mean that he is not the da'i al-mutlaq. It simply means that the break will be complete, and he will need to establish his own infrastructure for his followers.

As to who is da'i. You should by now know my personal views on this. I will repeat. SMB (RA) did nass on S. Qutbuddin 50 years ago, the day he appointed him to the rutba of mazoon. STS (RA) had also done nass on S. Qutbuddin. How do I know this? Because I trust a man who was personally trained by STS (RA) and was SMS (RA)'s mazoon for 50 years. Simple as that. If I question this, then I am questioning STS (RA) and SMB (RA) as they showered great attention on him, and elevated him to the highest position after themselves.

Now, SMB (RA)'s life and reign was long and eventful. He was basically a benevolent personality, but his biggest weakness was his kindness and his inability to control his brothers and children. They took over control from him. This is painfully obvious in the last two years, when SMB (RA) was paraded around like a mannequin, his mouth stuffed with false teeth and his body injected with hormones. Is this how one treats one's father? I could not even look at the pictures without feeling sad. I do not discount the possibility that SMB (RA) in some drug induced state or under pressure, did mumble something about Muffadul Saifuddin. However, we don't know this for sure, and no one heard SMB (RA) clearly. In this scenario it makes logical sense to accept S. Qutbuddin as da'i. I know you may not agree, but this is what I think is the correct thing to do.

In addition, we also have to see how his enemies have behaved. They vilified S. Qutbuddin even in the lifetime of SMS (RA). They would take his name in the misaaq and then immediately invalidate it by saying nasty things against him. When the zaahir-batin episode became public, it was revealed that the central figure behind this was Muffaful Saifuddin. How come he broke his misaaq and went against his father's own mazoon? Simple, by that time his mind was corrupted by Yusuf Najmuddin, Aliasgar Kalimuddin and others, who harbored intense jealously of the mazoon. SMS (RA) great weakness was that he did not openly stop these nefarious elements. It is possible that SMB (RA) tried to do something, but perhaps he had compulsions which are not aware off.

What we are 100% certain: S Qutbuddin remained his mazoon till the day he passed away. Despite all the machinations of his enemies, S. Qutbuddin remained a mazoon. That is the biggest miracle and proof. Let me say something which perhaps you may find strange. In the Quran Allah says that he has protected the Quran and its verses. According our beliefs, the da'is are like the Quranic verses. Hence, it is not surprising that despite the enmity and desire, no harm could come to S. Qutbuddin, even though these infernal demons tried to kill him on three occasions.

Now, my suggestion to you is the following, even if you don't agree with my analysis. Don't loose hope or trust in your own intellect, despite what Amils and jaamia graduates, or Muffaful Saifuddin tell you. Learn freely and don't hesitate to read translations, seeks out books and different sources. Try not to get swayed by the anti-Bohra people here and elsewhere, which casts us as kaafirs, etc. Just let these people do their own thing, and let them bray and howl loudly. Continue to do what your conscience and intellect urges you to do. You will be fine, and Allah will forgive you if you inadvertently make the wrong choice.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#76

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:52 pm

SBM wrote:
But he is not around at present, and so we must choose what to do in his absence, rather than lament and wring our hands in helplessness.
And how do you propose to do that since one Dai is living Yazidi life style and other is too weak to do anything and your friend thinks this forum and progressives are insignificant to make dent
So let us hear some ideas and solution to this dilemma rather then to just blow hot air and categorizing.
Lets walk the talk show us your solution , Joining SKQ is not the answer since you said yourself he is too weak and we do not know if he is going to make any changes or it will be status-qua if he becomes the Dai.
Isn't my solution clear: support S. Qutbuddin! Don't get dejected by his present weakness. It is only weakness in political matters, not in doctrine and truthfulness. (Incidentally, to correct you: he is the da'i already, and has already shown by his actions he is not maintaining status-quo).

Let me elaborate: Maulana Ali kept quiet for 26 years after the Prophet died. He did not say anything when others usurped his position. He was weak politically, and only had a handful of dedicated followers, including the likes of Ammar bin Yaasir who sacrificed himself at the Battle of Siffin. Yet, he was the successor to the Prophet, irrespective of political power. So, lets be patient and not be too concerned about wordily power.

Incidentally, I should say that all DMMS has is wordily and political power. And that is all he desires. He lives a life of great decadence, and his followers consider that to be something good and virtuous. Yet, he is weak. He feels angry when a few followers of S. Qutbuddin call out his misogyny, his anti-intellectualism, his stone-age ideas about education etc. He back-peddles on his own principals, as he actually does not have any which he really believes in. All he wants is power, money and control over people's lives. Reasons enough to reject him.

saminaben
Posts: 132
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#77

Unread post by saminaben » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:55 pm

Abde53vs53
Each night when you go to lullaby sleep, there is a tiny little tape that runs through your minds eye of your days events and what is impending for you tomorrow or the next day or the next year, and the day to day choices you make.

Allow that little tape to guide you in your journey for deciding your path to what is right and what is wrong, what's for you and what isn't. Nobody else, no Imaam or Dai, or Hindu judge can decide that for you.

SBM
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#78

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:07 pm

Biradar
You gave the example of Imam Ali who kept quiet for 26 years but he did it to keep the Ummah united and not for glory, power or wealth
but he did take stand against injustice while SKQ declaring himself as Dai has divided the community ( I am not saying if SMS is the rightful Dai either)
If you apply that analogy to SKQ why did SKQ kept quiet when he knew there was injustice going in the community. He was very well aware of nepotism and corruption in the community and as a Mazoon who had the eyes and ears of the Dai should have brought to his attention. Why should one believe now that SKQ who for 50 years kept quiet and shared the loot of the community will be any different when he gets the power.(Alavi Bohras hierarchy is no different then Dawoodi Bohras either)
Yes granted he and his family are more educated, more austere and simple living people who now responding to the community.s need and want to rid off all those gridlocks required for simple ceremonies like Nikkah and Misaq but why now and not before?

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#79

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:43 pm

SBM wrote:Does it matter if those exposes are made by Ex Bohras, Anti Bohras, Anti Kothar Bohras, Anti Kothar Ex Bohras etc etc etc or for that reason Wahabis, If an Atheist can have free hand expressing his view and demean the Bohras by saying that Bohras do not believe in Allaha and Quran and give more importance to Dai then why not Wahabis (some one's imagination) be allowed to express their views...
No one says that Wahhabis and anti-Bohras should not express their views on this forum. I certainly have not said it. Why do you imagine these silly things? :roll:

Dimwit, I did not say that Bohras do not believe in Allah, Quran and the Hidden Imam. They do but the Dai is more important and immediately relevant.

dawedaar
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#80

Unread post by dawedaar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:12 pm

Because, at that time, going against the dai Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (RA) would have meant his early retirement. The little support he has got now would not be there. The tide was already against him since long. What could he have done ?? Who would have listened to him then ?? because authority was the 52nd dai then!
SBM wrote:Biradar
You gave the example of Imam Ali who kept quiet for 26 years but he did it to keep the Ummah united and not for glory, power or wealth
but he did take stand against injustice while SKQ declaring himself as Dai has divided the community ( I am not saying if SMS is the rightful Dai either)
If you apply that analogy to SKQ why did SKQ kept quiet when he knew there was injustice going in the community. He was very well aware of nepotism and corruption in the community and as a Mazoon who had the eyes and ears of the Dai should have brought to his attention. Why should one believe now that SKQ who for 50 years kept quiet and shared the loot of the community will be any different when he gets the power.(Alavi Bohras hierarchy is no different then Dawoodi Bohras either)
Yes granted he and his family are more educated, more austere and simple living people who now responding to the community.s need and want to rid off all those gridlocks required for simple ceremonies like Nikkah and Misaq but why now and not before?

SBM
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#81

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:18 pm

Br Dawedar
Pl see my response in SKQ thread since this is going of track

Biradar
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#82

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:36 pm

SBM wrote:Br Dawedar
Pl see my response in SKQ thread since this is going of track
Let me just say one simple thing. We don't know the full picture yet of the last few decades, specially as to what happened within the confines of Saify and Badri Mahal. For example: what compelled S. Qutbuddin to leave Saify Mahal and build his own house (Darus Sakina)? What were the internal debates and struggles? How do we know he did not try to stop YN and other, but they ran rough-shod over him? An example: when S. Moayyad Shirazi came to the court of Imam Mustansir, he was not allowed to see the Imam due to the machinations of the vizers. Also, towards the end Imam Mustansir was no longer in control of the army and the administrative apparatus of the state, and it took S. Badrul Jamali to bring the empire back under control. We can't blame the Imam or da'i always. This is a world of material hardships and political upheavals. Sometimes long periods of time pass before significant changes occur.

saminaben
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:57 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#83

Unread post by saminaben » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:44 pm

Lately, I found myself irritated with this forum, annoyed, and angry. Soon it turned into rage. Yet I couldn't sort out my feelings, and understand all of them, only enough to know it was while reading and reflecting upon ssomething that came up because of this forum. Then it dawned on me that I am being bullied and treated with contempt from what I have been reading past so many weeks. The same kind of hideous, nagging feeling that seemed all too familiar. Where I am talked down to, or as if I am reading something from a novel meant to patronize, humiliate and manipulate the reader. Tempted to ward this off as my own idiosyncratic reaction, I went away for a couple days and came back to the site, and sure enough the haunting feelings of being manipulated returned.

Fast forwarding the tape to my conclusions, not wanting to burden you with my process:
It is this thread and a few others on this forum that is inundated with the same BS and crap, same deception and manipulateveness that I and many others have experienced at the hands of so many, not all, of our spiritual leaders whom we call Bhai SAhebs, aamilsahebs, ustaads, and many, not all, of those "khidmatguzaars" who wear the hijab of "do-gooders".

Here on this forum, the following actions are the culprits. I deliberately won't fingerpoint nor single anyone out. Enough done already.
* Posting the same things over and over again, as if one is an imbecile or intellectually-challenged.
* Making tit for tat retorts or ping pong games as if I was in a grade school playground, wondering who has the best sarcasm and cynicism, smart aleckness of them all.
* Hideous contempt and air of arrogance and haughty superiority from someone offering one POV toward another's.

Am I the only one here feeling betrayed, bullied and manipulated, again and again?

DISCLAIMER: Nothing personal against me, per se. Enough that as a reader on this public forum we are witnesses to this clever bullying, hideous contempt and manipulation shown toward each other. Granted, people have different sensitivities and tolerance levels. It is not my intent to name names, blame people or categorize one group over another as being responsible for any of this. Better to look at ourselves in the mirror, rather than pointing fingers at another.

Finally, I am pondering over the following paragraph from this Reform website in an effort to pull us together, despite our individual differences:
"We are of the belief that though our struggles in the Bohra context is unique in many ways, it is yet intertwined with other peoples' struggle for peace, justice and dignity. Only by relating to larger struggles around us and by renewing our commitment to shared ideals we can hope to brings unstick and equity in our community and in the world at large."

SBM
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#84

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:45 pm

Well Biradar
Your response does prove that only on this forum you can discuss and that is the point How is this Forum significant To all those who ask how is this forum significant all I can say--- back and forth debate between Biradar and Humsafar would not be possible and to learn something new if not for this forum

Humsafar
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#85

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:12 pm

Biradar wrote:Friend Humsafar: The central character in the faith is not missing in action. He is present, but in seclusion. The da'i al-mutlaq operates with the same authority as the Imam (while he is in seclusion). So, he is the divinely appointed guide during this time. The fundamental defining aspect of Bohras is this belief. You can reject it, of course, but that, by definition, takes you out of the set of Bohras.
Beyond the semantics of being present but in seclusion the fact is that he is absent for all practical purposes. The Imam - being the guide of the faithful - has no business in being seclusion. If he chooses to remain in seclusion for vast swathes of time then we must wonder why the belief in Imam should be fundamental to our faith? And because the Imam is in seclusion, not only the faithful are deprived of divine guidance, but even the succession of Dais turns into a dispute every now and then. That the "da'i al-mutlaq operates with the same authority as the Imam" is the whole difficulty. Ismaili Mustalians have split so many times, yet the Imam has not stirred out of his seclusion and the Dai of every splinter faction is operating with "the same authority of the Imam". How can the divinely appointed Imam allow this? Who do you think is the rightful Dai - Sulemani, Dawoodi, Alavi etc. etc, and now Mufaddali or Qutbi?
Biradar wrote:The question of why satar at all is a complex one. I don't know. In our cosmogony, for vast swathes of time the Imam is in seclusion. For example, from the time of Ebrahim to the Prophet Mohammad, the mustakar Imams were in seclusion. The incidence of Ebrahim being ready to sacrifice his son is an allusion to this. After the prophet, the Imams were manifest only for a short time, and Imam Mohammad bin Ismail and a three of his descendants went into seclusion. Imam Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah did zuhur, but then again in a relatively short while, Imam Tayyeb when into seclusion.
As I said above the seclusion business does not make sense if the Imam are supposed be the guide of the faithful. Delegating their responsibility to the Dais - and we know their lot - amounts to ditching the faithful, their faith and the very concept of Imamat.
Biradar wrote:We can ask why till the cows come home, or our houses burn down. However, the question we are faced with now is: how do we continue to maintain our traditions and beliefs at present. At present, we are facing a crisis, in which we have one party turning the community into a bunch of fanatics baboons, and the other powerless to much to dent the Goliath's machine. The progressive have done great work, but they have ultimately been unsuccessful in the larger Bohra community. There is a chance for change now, and I believe we should support it.
Don't you think the current crisis is directly linked to the concept of Imamat and absentee Imam? The Imam is failing, yet again, to appoint the rightful successor, and more importantly refusing to come out of seclusion.
What traditions and beliefs are you talking about: The Bohra cult, the apotheosis of the Dai which started right from the time of STS. For Bohras the Dai and his extended family is the be all and end all of their beliefs. Do you think the Bohras of today are the same as the Bohras of, say, 50 years ago? Our traditions and beliefs have become, let me say it (even at the risk of being labelled Wahabbi, anti-Bohra etc.) anti-Islamic, and go against the egalitarian teachings of the Quran and even Fatimid beliefs (as you mentioned). I see nothing egalitarian or just or compassionate in the Bohra world today. And this is not because of Mufaddal Saifuddin. Yes, he is the most egregious of the lot but let us not pin all the blame on him. He is simply carrying on - and taking to new heights - the legacy of extravagance and extortion and oppression which he inherited from his father and grandfather.

Yes KQ maybe a decent man in comparison, but he is cut from the same cloth. He may dispense with pomp and luxury - which is a welcome relief - but as far as the position of power of Dai is concerned he is in no mood to let go. He continues with the tradition of qadambosi and unquestioned acceptance of the Dai's writ.
Biradar wrote:Of course, one may choose, in dejection and frustration, to leave completely, become Sunni, or an atheist or an anti-Bohra. We all can't do that, or that will be the end of the community as we know it. That is all I am saying. Yes, yes, we must ask where the Imam is. But he is not around at present, and so we must choose what to do in his absence, rather than lament and wring our hands in helplessness.
The faithful choosing their leader? Isn't that the very antithesis of our faith in Imamat: The Imam is divinely appointed, in his absence he appoints the Dai. But when there are two Dais fighting for the same position where is the Imam in all this, where is the divinity? If we have to choose then why not have more candidates to choose from. Let's make it a real democracy, mind you I'm not suggesting that we should, but if we have to choose then, why not? You see, no matter how you cut it, we will keep coming back to the concept of Imamat and the difficulties it presents.

The current crisis over Daiship is in real terms a crisis of faith. If Bohras knew their religion (and they have been systematically kept away from knowing it) they would be today questioning the very concept of Imamat that underpins the current mess. But far from it, the vast majority of them are not even questioning the depredations of Mufaddal Saifuddin. This is really sad.

One last thought: The concept of Imamat, however fundamental it maybe to our belief it is obvious that it has no served us, our faith or our ummah well. On the contrary it has been misused by upstart mullahs to control us and exploit us. How useful it is to keep chanting that it is the fundamental article of our faith even as this very belief is destroying our faith and our community before our own eyes?

Biradar
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#86

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:26 pm

Humsafar wrote: ….

One last thought: The concept of Imamat, however fundamental it maybe to our belief it is obvious that it has no served us, our faith or our ummah well. On the contrary it has been misused by upstart mullahs to control us and exploit us. How useful it is to keep chanting that it is the fundamental article of our faith even as this very belief is destroying our faith and our community before our own eyes?
Perhaps you are right. However, in the same vein, neither has the concept of Allah, Quran, Prophet et al served us well. These all have failed to ameliorate the troubles which beset this world. But let me say again what I said before: during the time of the Imam's seclusion, the da'i is the divinely appointed guide. That is all. Just as Allah never show himself directly, but sends messengers, for long periods of time the Imam may choose to direct the dawaat from seclusion. I don't know why, or you won't accept my answers. This is an interesting philosophical question, but moot for the present crisis.

Also, when I say "choose" I mean between the choices you have now. There are two. Pick one. Or neither and fail to remain a Bohra. Of course, you can keep calling yourself Bohra, which is fine by me.

Incidentally, I am curious to why the progressives as a whole choose to believe in the office of the da'i al-mutlaq in the first place? It is clear that this current schism has put them in some vacillation, as they either must agree with the extremist progressives (like Badri Janab) and reject da'i al-mutlaq or consider their choice till end of last year (till SMB passed away) as incorrect.

Actually, I don't see how chanting that Imamat is a must, "is destroying our faith and our community before our own eyes". This is a theoretical concept, and something to ponder about, but some practical choice have to be made at present.

(I should say that I agree with a lot of things you say. I don't have problems with questioning this or that, even the existence of Imam or Allah himself. What I am saying is: we need to make a choice, based on limited options we have. Obviously, progressives have not managed to win over large number of Bohras to their cause, and in 1 year the schism has done more that has happened in 60 years or struggle. I personally want the momentum going and real change from within to come up.)

anajmi
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#87

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:37 pm

As far as Islam goes, it doesn't matter if one remains a bohra or not. The term "bohra" doesn't exist in Islamic terminology and I am pretty sure it doesn't occur anywhere in any Fatimid text no matter how deep you dig into it.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#88

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:44 pm

finally what i, bhai sbm and humsafar have succeeded in doing is in unmasking the ugly face and true intentions of this charlatan fayyaz. he is nothing but a muffadali stooge masquerading as an atheist professing free speech, legality and all that b.s. his real (but hidden) agenda is in protecting his con artist slave master mufatlal and his cronies who are indulging in the worst form of deceptions, loot, kufr and tyranny.

for those intelligent enough to read between the lines, it would have become obvious by now what this slithering, unethical, immoral snake is up to.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#89

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:31 pm

What has "Imam, Imamat and Bohras" thread got to do with the thread in which the significance of this forum which was being argued about? Why is it merged here?

I see many posts since yesterday are deleted. The last one of mine was an explanation about why this forum remains insignificant for Bohras. It should at least have been challenged before summarily being wiped out. But that is the way of the forum! Can't complain for small mercies! :) :) :)

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#90

Unread post by SBM » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:45 pm

I see many posts since yesterday are deleted. The last one of mine was an explanation about why this forum remains insignificant for Bohras. It should at least have been challenged before summarily being wiped out. But that is the way of the forum! Can't complain for small mercies!
Wow he is complaining about his posts being deleted. This is very small insignificant forum so who would miss your posts so why complain