Imam, Imamat and Bohras

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
anajmi
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#91

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:01 pm

And he is explaining why the forum remains insignificant on an insignificant forum!!

fayyaaz
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#92

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:12 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Isn't it ironic that the only two participants, Yazid-loving Wahhabi and his minion, intellectually challenged SBM are most, and perhaps the only ones, interested in my views. These are the ones who wanted me restricted on this forum.

I know that in those two at least I have a ready audience. :lol:
:lol: :lol:

anajmi
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#93

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:40 pm

Time you put into perspective the insignificance of your views over here eh? :wink:

Admin
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#94

Unread post by Admin » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:20 pm

fayyaaz wrote:What has "Imam, Imamat and Bohras" thread got to do with the thread in which the significance of this forum which was being argued about? Why is it merged here?

I see many posts since yesterday are deleted. The last one of mine was an explanation about why this forum remains insignificant for Bohras. It should at least have been challenged before summarily being wiped out. But that is the way of the forum! Can't complain for small mercies! :) :) :)
All Forum related posts have been moved here with the original Topic title: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10423#p150421

Humsafar
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#95

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:42 pm

Biradar wrote: Perhaps you are right. However, in the same vein, neither has the concept of Allah, Quran, Prophet et al served us well. These all have failed to ameliorate the troubles which beset this world. But let me say again what I said before: during the time of the Imam's seclusion, the da'i is the divinely appointed guide. That is all. Just as Allah never show himself directly, but sends messengers, for long periods of time the Imam may choose to direct the dawaat from seclusion. I don't know why, or you won't accept my answers. This is an interesting philosophical question, but moot for the present crisis.
Sorry, I don't think you can equate the concept of Allah, Quran and Prophet with Imamat. Allah is an abstract concept. He is neither required and nor expected to be physically present at all times. The Quran is an actual, physical book which people can touch, hold and read, it delvers what it promises. The Prophet has come and gone he said he was the last of them and the he came to culminate Islam. He did his job par excellence. He did not go into hiding when things got tough for him. Similarly, the Imam, let me repeat, has a job to do: he is required by the Quran to be on earth - present and visible - to guide the faithful. Imam is not Allah who cannot be seen and yet do his work. I get that the Dai takes over in the Imam's absence, but the point I'm driving home is that the Imam has no business to go into seclusion and delegate his work (except perhaps when his life is in danger, but even then not if we look to the example of Imam Hussain).

Let me try another tack. The Quran enjoins and promises to believers that there will be a divinely appointed Imam to guide them. Right? The Quran does not elaborate anymore than this. The concept of Imamat as we know it today was developed in the post Quranic era in the time of I believe Imam Jaffer us Sadiq and later on by Islmaili and Fatimid thinkers who expanded it by intrapolating into it Neoplatonic philosophy. The seclusion of the Imam is not part of Ismaili doctine, as far as I know. The Imam going into hiding was more of a political expediency - for fear persecution and assassination. Yes, there were times when it made strategic sense for Imams to go into seclusion. But not any more. Today the Islamili Imam (historically most persecuted) feels not need to be in seclusion. (That there is apparently more than one Imam to guide the faithful is another conundrum, which is at odds with the concept of Imamat and the Quran's commandment: that there can be ONLY ONE divinely appointed Imam. This is another elephant in the room which we conveniently ignored.).

With all due respect, the question "where the Imam is" is not a philosophical question but a practical one. His seclusion has wrought havoc on the faithful, their community and their faith.
Biradar wrote:Also, when I say "choose" I mean between the choices you have now. There are two. Pick one. Or neither and fail to remain a Bohra. Of course, you can keep calling yourself Bohra, which is fine by me.
My point is that it is not for us to pick, it is the Imam's job. Besides, why should I lose my identity and faith for failing to pick a Dai? It's like blaming the victim. How do I know who is the rightful one? Okay, you will say use your intelligence, but what if I am not capable of analysing the pros and cons of the situation, I'm not aware of the history and ignorant of the machinations of the clergy? The point is, the onus of choosing the Dai is not on the faithful. If it is, the it turns the whole Imamat business on its head.

However, there is a solution: Call the Dai's bluff. We're told and it is supported by our beliefs, that the Dai is in touch with the Imam. The Dai knows who the Imam is. So the true Dai would know who the true (Bohra) Imam is. It is time the rightful Dai - whether Mufaddal or Khuzema - to reveal the Imam. Shouldn't we demand this from these contenders, rather than wrangle amongst ourselves proving who the real Dai is? The onus is on the Dai to show us the Imam, and not on us to pick a Dai. If not then what is the guarantee that few decades down the line we will not be asked to pick a Dai again, like so many other times in the past. Every time you pick a Dai you split the community. Now you see how the Imam's seclusion is destroying the community.
Biradar wrote:Incidentally, I am curious to why the progressives as a whole choose to believe in the office of the da'i al-mutlaq in the first place? It is clear that this current schism has put them in some vacillation, as they either must agree with the extremist progressives (like Badri Janab) and reject da'i al-mutlaq or consider their choice till end of last year (till SMB passed away) as incorrect.
The progressives are waiting and watching. For them, as far as I know, KQ is only marginally better than MS. The former comes with the same baggage as Sayedna Burhanuddin which is not saying much. The other thing is that the progressives would rather have a united community, would like some kind of a compromise between the two and have some of their reform demands met. Is it realistic? Don't know.

SBM
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#96

Unread post by SBM » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:45 pm

^
Very interesting and knowledgeable debate between Humsafar and Biradar. I like to know what does Adam and Haqniwaat thinks of this. ( no pun please ) Wish Porus was here to post his comments too. This kind of debate can only be done on this FORUM without any repercussion
Admin Please let no one divert this and any post which goes off the tangent should be deleted or moved

SBM
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#97

Unread post by SBM » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:11 am

Humsafar and Biradar
Please enlighten me about how does the living Imam Agha Khan fits in this . I understand both of you are discussing about Bohra's belief in Imam and Agha Khan is separate topic but to get a better understanding, one should also have an idea how and where even the Imamat got split too.
Agha Khanis also call themselves Shia and if they have a living Imam who is in forefront explaining the world about current crisis faced in Muslim world, denouncing the actions of ISIS. his involvement with Islamic Heritage and facing the hostile Anti Islamic world truly presents that he may the Imam who is not hiding and worried about safety of his life.hidden Imam concept is after all being used by our Dais to collect Najwa in the name of Imam U Zaman. Did not even STS mentioned that there is no such thing as Iman in Purdah in court document (discussed somewhere on this forum here)
Just like a great majority of Christians believe in existence of Santa we Bohras (I did not say all Shias since Agha Khanis call themselves Shias too) also believe Imam in Purdah? :?

adna_mumin
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#98

Unread post by adna_mumin » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:17 pm

Humsafar wrote: The Prophet has come and gone he said he was the last of them and the he came to culminate Islam. He did his job par excellence. He did not go into hiding when things got tough for him. Similarly, the Imam, let me repeat, has a job to do: he is required by the Quran to be on earth - present and visible - to guide the faithful.
Present - yes
Guide- yes
Visible to you and me - Not necessarily.
Humsafar wrote: Imam is not Allah who cannot be seen and yet do his work. I get that the Dai takes over in the Imam's absence, but the point I'm driving home is that the Imam has no business to go into seclusion and delegate his work (except perhaps when his life is in danger, but even then not if we look to the example of Imam Hussain).

Imam IS Haq. Rasulullah SAW did hijrat from Makkah to Medina; his amal was haq and pur hikmah.

Rasulullah SAW has said Ali is Haq. Haq will go where Ali goes.
Imam Hasan SA did suleh with Muawiya LA. Imam Husain SA did jihad. Both are Haq.
Humsafar wrote:My point is that it is not for us to pick, it is the Imam's job. Besides, why should I lose my identity and faith for failing to pick a Dai? It's like blaming the victim.
Imam SA does his job. Rasulullah SAW did his "job". Why did Ummah betray him after Gadheer e khum?

Your question is a good one though.
A mumin's identity that he/she "really" cares for (or should) is the one in front of his creator. For instance,

* Mumin were those that after Nabi Mohammed Mustafa SAW passed from this world, gave bayah to his appointed Wasi - Moulana Ali SA.
* Mumin were those that under the most difficult of circumstances (ever) in the burning sands of Iraq gave bayah to Imam Husain SA

So in essence, the Imam SA does his job of appointment as is promised, but the world is not sans examinations for mumin. He has to make his "choice" that is to side with the "choice" of the preceding Imam or not. In this context therefore he has to ponder, learn and qualify for his own jaan's sake if he wants to stay mumin.

Those that worry for worldly "identities" more than they do for their akherat make their "choice" too.
Humsafar wrote:How do I know who is the rightful one? Okay, you will say use your intelligence, but what if I am not capable of analysing the pros and cons of the situation, I'm not aware of the history and ignorant of the machinations of the clergy?
How did muslims of Arabia know Rasulullah SAW was truthful and the "rightful one"? Because they pondered, went through the same dilemmas people are faced today. Indeed.
Humsafar wrote:The point is, the onus of choosing the Dai is not on the faithful. If it is, the it turns the whole Imamat business on its head.
The onus of choosing duniya over deen or the other way round IS very much on the faithful.

Allah SWT in the holy Quran says, Surah Ankaboot (29:2)

أَحَسِبَ النَّاسُ أَن يُتْرَكُوا أَن يَقُولُوا آمَنَّا وَهُمْ لَا يُفْتَنُونَ
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?


Allah TA knows best.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#99

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:46 pm

Bro adna_mumin.

With due respects to you, the examples given by you are not relevant.
adna_mumin wrote:Imam IS Haq. Rasulullah SAW did hijrat from Makkah to Medina; his amal was haq and pur hikmah
Rasulullah s.a.w. did hijrat for a particular period, He did not go into seclusion forever.
adna_mumin wrote:How did muslims of Arabia know Rasulullah SAW was truthful and the "rightful one"? Because they pondered, went through the same dilemmas people are faced today. Indeed
The Muslims of Arabia acknowledged Rasulullah s.a.w. as truthful and the rightful one because he was physically present and people could see his actions in flesh and blood whereas the Imam is hidden and there is no way that anyone can gauge his actions.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#100

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:58 pm

adna_mumin wrote:The onus of choosing duniya over deen or the other way round IS very much on the faithful.

Allah SWT in the holy Quran says, Surah Ankaboot (29:2)
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? (29:2).

By "Tried", Allah (swt) refers to the trials as far as belief in Him is concerned and thereafter there are mentions of many instances wherein people were tried but the same are restricted to events that occurred during the lifetime of Prophets alone, there is no mention of Imam.

adna_mumin
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#101

Unread post by adna_mumin » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:14 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
adna_mumin wrote:The onus of choosing duniya over deen or the other way round IS very much on the faithful.

Allah SWT in the holy Quran says, Surah Ankaboot (29:2)
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? (29:2).

By "Tried", Allah (swt) refers to the trials as far as belief in Him is concerned and thereafter there are mentions of many instances wherein people were tried but the same are restricted to events that occurred during the lifetime of Prophets alone, there is no mention of Imam.
Is Quran Majeed merely a record of History or a Guide for all to come? Depending on your belief you get your answer.
Let us see what Allah SWT himself says - Surah Takweer (81:27-28)

* إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا ذِكْرٌ لِّلْعَالَمِينَ * لِمَن شَاءَ مِنكُمْ أَن يَسْتَقِيمَ
It is not except a reminder to the worlds. For whoever wills among you to take a right course.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#102

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:25 pm

adna_mumin wrote:Is Quran Majeed merely a record of History or a Guide for all to come? Depending on your belief you get your answer.
Agreed but where does the Quran "Guide" people to follow the hidden Imam ?

anajmi
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#103

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:31 pm

Actually, there is nothing in the Quran about a guide being present forever. People twist and turn the ayahs of the Quran to get to where they want to go. It is as simple as that. The prophet (saw) did hijrat and didn't go into seclusion. Let us stop comparing apples with broccoli. A guide needs to be present to guide.

anajmi
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#104

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:42 pm

The entire bohra faith gets re-written. Now the Dai doesn't need to be selected by the Imam but by the people. First we were told that the Dai is infallible cause he was selected by the Imam. And now what? [DELETED]

Humsafar
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#105

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:04 pm

adna_mumin wrote: How did muslims of Arabia know Rasulullah SAW was truthful and the "rightful one"? Because they pondered, went through the same dilemmas people are faced today. Indeed.
Wrong question. There were not two contenders for prophethood, there was no dilemma, there was no question of choice. Yes, people may have pondered over the Prophet's message and accepted him or rejected him.
adna_mumin wrote:The onus of choosing duniya over deen or the other way round IS very much on the faithful.
We are not talking about deen and duniya here.

Humsafar
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#106

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:24 pm

SBM wrote:Humsafar and Biradar
Please enlighten me about how does the living Imam Agha Khan fits in this . I understand both of you are discussing about Bohra's belief in Imam and Agha Khan is separate topic but to get a better understanding, one should also have an idea how and where even the Imamat got split too.
Agha Khanis also call themselves Shia and if they have a living Imam who is in forefront explaining the world about current crisis faced in Muslim world, denouncing the actions of ISIS. his involvement with Islamic Heritage and facing the hostile Anti Islamic world truly presents that he may the Imam who is not hiding and worried about safety of his life.hidden Imam concept is after all being used by our Dais to collect Najwa in the name of Imam U Zaman. Did not even STS mentioned that there is no such thing as Iman in Purdah in court document (discussed somewhere on this forum here)
Just like a great majority of Christians believe in existence of Santa we Bohras (I did not say all Shias since Agha Khanis call themselves Shias too) also believe Imam in Purdah? :?
The Ismailis split into Nizaris and Mustalians, and the Aga Khan is the Nizari Imam who traces his lineage to the Prophet. As I pointed out above, the existence of more than one divinely appointed Imam at the same time is a great conundrum that makes the doctrine of Imamat untenable. The Aga Khan to his credit is "guiding" his community and fulfilling his role. Whether one agrees with his style of functioning or his lifestyle or the way his followers idolize him is another matter.

I don't think the analogy of Santa and Imam is appropriate. The Santa is a make-believe, extra-religious entity like a tooth fairy. It is not germane to Christian belief system. But the doctrine of Imamt is an article of faith. However, it is true that the Imam's almost permanent seclusion may have almost placed him in the ranks of Santa - as a figment of imagination.

alam
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#107

Unread post by alam » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Humsafar wrote:
However, there is a solution: Call the Dai's bluff. We're told and it is supported by our beliefs, that the Dai is in touch with the Imam. The Dai knows who the Imam is. So the true Dai would know who the true (Bohra) Imam is. It is time the rightful Dai - whether Mufaddal or Khuzema - to reveal the Imam. Shouldn't we demand this from these contenders, rather than wrangle amongst ourselves proving who the real Dai is? The onus is on the Dai to show us the Imam, and not on us to pick a Dai. If not then what is the guarantee that few decades down the line we will not be asked to pick a Dai again, like so many other times in the past. Every time you pick a Dai you split the community. Now you see how the Imam's seclusion is destroying the community.
The progressives are waiting and watching. For them, as far as I know, KQ is only marginally better than MS. The former comes with the same baggage as Sayedna Burhanuddin which is not saying much. The ot
her thing is that the progressives would rather have a united community, would like some kind of a compromise between the two and have some of their reform demands met. Is it realistic? Don't know.
Evidently STS admitted in the courts that Imam is a concept. Okay, lets grant that STS was cornered and what he really ought to have said was 'that the existence of the Imam is a central part of our faith, and while I receive inspiration that I attribute as coming from Imam, and refer to it as "Ilhalm", it is essentially the same as the previous doat my predecessors have done. While I personally cannot testify that I have physically been in touch with the Imam Uz Zamaan, I can wholeheartedly declare I 100% believe in the existence of Imam at the present time on earth. No, I have not personally been in touch with him."

Suppose STS did declare this as true to faith - we still do have a problem today, the way I see it.
Begging SMS or SKQ to reveal the Imam is pointless. The article of faith says that the Imam will reveal himself to the Dai, that the Imam calls the shots, not the Dai. It is the Imam who is more of a spiritual authority than the Dai.
The bigger problem now is that, unlike 2 Dais of the present day Shism era, there is also the Alavi Dai, the Suleymaani Dai, and a couple other sects from previous shisms. The field is wide open for many "Imams" to show up, because the Bohra community is "begging" and "praying" and "beseeching" for the Imam to show up.
Need I spell out the drift?
Unruly elements in the Islamic world are likely, sooner or later, to exploit the turmoil in the Bohra World, representing themselves to be Imam? And abusing and hijacking the faith, yet again?

anajmi
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#108

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:35 pm

Here is a relevant thread to validate the Imam.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7075&p=92583&hilit= ... mam#p92583

Humsafar
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#109

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:50 pm

alam wrote: Evidently STS admitted in the courts that Imam is a concept. Okay, lets grant that STS was cornered and what he really ought to have said was 'that the existence of the Imam is a central part of our faith, and while I receive inspiration that I attribute as coming from Imam, and refer to it as "Ilhalm", it is essentially the same as the previous doat my predecessors have done. While I personally cannot testify that I have physically been in touch with the Imam Uz Zamaan, I can wholeheartedly declare I 100% believe in the existence of Imam at the present time on earth. No, I have not personally been in touch with him."

Suppose STS did declare this as true to faith - we still do have a problem today, the way I see it.
Begging SMS or SKQ to reveal the Imam is pointless. The article of faith says that the Imam will reveal himself to the Dai, that the Imam calls the shots, not the Dai. It is the Imam who is more of a spiritual authority than the Dai.
The bigger problem now is that, unlike 2 Dais of the present day Shism era, there is also the Alavi Dai, the Suleymaani Dai, and a couple other sects from previous shisms. The field is wide open for many "Imams" to show up, because the Bohra community is "begging" and "praying" and "beseeching" for the Imam to show up.
Need I spell out the drift?
Unruly elements in the Islamic world are likely, sooner or later, to exploit the turmoil in the Bohra World, representing themselves to be Imam? And abusing and hijacking the faith, yet again?
Agreed, the Imam indeed has spiritual primacy over Dais, he calls the shots. I'm driven, as it were, to appeal to the contender Dais to reveal the Imam because the Imam would not reveal himself. If they can't "reveal" then at least they have to invoke the Imam and say they are receiving ilhaam from him. After all, there must be some way to find out which of the two has got the Imam's ear. Doesn't it strike you as odd then in this whole quarrel the Imam is not only absent, but nobody even bothers to mention him. As if he does not matter at all.

As I mentioned above, "The field is wide open for many Imams" is itself the puzzle that must be solved first before we go on to the Dais.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#110

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:06 pm

Humsafar wrote: Doesn't it strike you as odd then in this whole quarrel the Imam is not only absent, but nobody even bothers to mention him. As if he does not matter at all.
this was my question/comment right at the outset when the schism occured immediately after smb's death and the matter of nass went to the courts. it seems that we have travelled full circle and come back to the same point. in fact, inspite of the popular vilification directed towards anajmi, it is to his credit that he too had pointed out this very pertinent angle. but of course, having been labelled a rabid wahabi, he was shouted down and made to shut up, how dare you, you %$#@ non-bohra, you &^%$ shia hater, yazid lover, blah blah and what not.

bohras of today care 2 hoots about allah, muhammad or imam. for them dai is everything. the aforementioned 3 are mere appendages of convenience to outwardly remain willy-nilly in the islamic fold.

fayyaaz
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#111

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:08 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
......... anajmi, ......... having been labelled a rabid wahabi, he was shouted down and made to shut up,........
anajmi made to shut up? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by fayyaaz on Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fayyaaz
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#112

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:17 pm

Humsafar,

Maybe, Imam has decided to no longer communicate with his Dai. Maybe he is dead. Maybe he has risen again. Maybe this and Maybe that....

You may not yet understand all this but there may be hikmat in Imam's actions. :wink:

Why does God not reveal himself? Why does he let 'innocent' babies die in typhoon and tsunamis? There may be hikmat in all that. But people have to deal with the reality of those catastrophes immediately, not set about debating why God allows such things.

I suggest you deal with what is in front of you right now. Choose SMS or SKQ. Or choose neither. Be happy.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#113

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:28 pm

fayyaaz wrote:You may not yet understand all this but there may be hikmat in Imam's actions.
fayyaaz wrote:I suggest you deal with what is in front of you right now. Choose SMS or SKQ. Or choose neither. Be happy.
The whole Nass concept and the consequent drama revolves around the hidden Imam and you are suggesting not to deal with the issue of Imam ???

anajmi
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#114

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:33 pm

What is the use of a hidden Imam and his hikmat if we have a hidden God who is Al-Hakeem?

fayyaaz
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#115

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:41 pm

GM,

Nass is not done by the Imam. Nass is supposed to be done by the incumbent Dai in office. Imam is not in the picture at all. Dai may claim he is inspired (ba-ilham) by Imam. Does he say how? No. You choose to believe the Dai that he is so inspired or choose not to believe him. That alone is your part in it.

Imam is in purdah and that is all there is to it. He is not involved in Nass. I am sure you know it but even then you are creating a red herring in the issue.

Wahhabi, what use is God's hikmat to you if your innocent child suddenly is taken away by natural or man-made disaster? Your only option is to accept your situation, be sad for a while and then carry on.

Bohras are already doing that. I suggest anti-Bohras do the same. Accept. Choose a Dai, SKQ or SMS or neither.

anajmi
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Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#116

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:52 pm

Wahhabi, what use is God's hikmat to you if your innocent child suddenly is taken away by natural or man-made disaster? Your only option is to accept your situation, be sad for a while and then carry on.
Well, Imam's hikmat will actually be of even less use. At least God will be able to get us together in jannah inshaallah. The Imam's hikmat is going to get you diddly squat!!

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#117

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:53 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Imam is in purdah and that is all there is to it. He is not involved in Nass
How is the Imam NOT involved in the Nass when according to the Bohra belief he is suppose to be the only one who instructs the Dai to appoint the next candidate ?

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#118

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:54 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
fayyaaz wrote:Imam is in purdah and that is all there is to it. He is not involved in Nass
How is the Imam NOT involved in the Nass when according to the Bohra belief he is suppose to be the only one who instructs the Dai to appoint the next candidate ?
Where is that belief outlined? In which Daawat book?

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#119

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:01 pm

Ahh. Precisely. Imam is not involved in this Nuss business. The bohra Dai has been lying to the bohras all along. :wink:

We have been told that the Dai is infallible because he is appointed by the Imam. I guess we can dig a grave for the Dai's infallibility on this forum. I never knew fayyaaz would be an asset in disguise.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#120

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:03 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
ghulam muhammed wrote: How is the Imam NOT involved in the Nass when according to the Bohra belief he is suppose to be the only one who instructs the Dai to appoint the next candidate ?
Where is that belief outlined? In which Daawat book?
Now this question should be asked to the Dai because that's what he claims and its one of the Bohra beliefs, this is what he says in his bayans.