Imam, Imamat and Bohras

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 1051
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#1

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:41 am

anajmi wrote:
Cult members, some on this forum, have expressed the wish for Reform. They will not achieve their goal if they go in with all guns blazing with a Yazid-loving Wahhabi leading the charge
Whoever those cult members are, they are a bunch of cowards and nincompoops. Instead of whining about a wahhabi yazid lover taking charge, maybe they should try and take charge themselves. Are they waiting for Santa to deliver reform for them? Don't they know that they will have to do the work. And they need to go in with guns blazing. And hypocrites like you aren't going to aid them. And reform isn't going to be delivered on a silver platter to these undeserving cowards on http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com. This will have to be taken in Saifee Mahal.
agree with u on principal and theoritically point of view, but not practically.
people since time immemorial wants a leader to lead them--this is a hard fact, like it or not.
and bohras wont go with anybody in their farthest of imagination with somebody who displays love for yazid.
accept it bro.
if anyone has to lead, he has to be shia. they wont compromise on any day with their fundamental belief even if they
have to live whole of thier life in slavery.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#2

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:56 pm

agree with u on principal and theoritically point of view, but not practically.
people since time immemorial wants a leader to lead them--this is a hard fact, like it or not.
and bohras wont go with anybody in their farthest of imagination with somebody who displays love for yazid.
accept it bro.
if anyone has to lead, he has to be shia. they wont compromise on any day with their fundamental belief even if they
have to live whole of thier life in slavery.
This might very well my last post on this forum as the Admin has issued a warning preventing me from saying that which is relevant.

There is a saying which goes - When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
Unfortunately for the bohras - When the going gets tough, their leaders go into hiding and stay there for centuries.
Find a new leader or good luck wih your life of slavery.

That should be enough to get me banned.

Ozdundee
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Imam, Imamat and Bohras

#3

Unread post by Ozdundee » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:56 pm

However, the concept of continued divine guidance is a central part of Islamic and Shia belief. Without such, one can be a cultural bohra, wear their clothes, eat their food, but one will eventually be unable to call oneself Bohra.
What concept..based on what historical foundation...Is it the foundation from the authentic verifiable Sources ?

Bohra ideology are remnants of a fallen Fatimid empire based ideology that has taken refuge in India from Yemeni indoctrinated converts and now isolated from mainstream Islam and growing only organically. In order to protect a very fragile ideology they are weeding out threats.

Since when does a mass of publicans decide who is culturally fit or not ? It is the individual who decides if they wish to be associated by the identity. It is like saying african Amercans collectively decide to excommunicate Obama because he is questioning African American culture!

Same error Maccans made when they tried to excommunicate the Prophet SAW..you know the result!
I like most of its cultural aspects but born into a call it ethnicity as a freethinking citizen of a free country question its weird ideologies , especially any draconian dogma and if that results in reforms the so be it and consider it as part of civilisation process.

And those who think reform movement is stuck..well if it is catching your or anyone's attention via countless commentary obviously it is not insignificant ! Do I sense it is getting more airtime than SKQ ?

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#4

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:13 pm

Ozdundee wrote:
However, the concept of continued divine guidance is a central part of Islamic and Shia belief. Without such, one can be a cultural bohra, wear their clothes, eat their food, but one will eventually be unable to call oneself Bohra.
What concept..based on what historical foundation...Is it the foundation from the authentic verifiable Sources ?

Bohra ideology are remnants of a fallen Fatimid empire based ideology that has taken refuge in India from Yemeni indoctrinated converts and now isolated from mainstream Islam and growing only organically.
The concept of 'continued divine guidance' is rooted in the hadith of 'thaqalayn'. Prophet has said that he leaves behind two entities: "Quran and his ahl-e-bayt". Sunnis say he said "Quran and his Sunnah". Shia believe in the first version.

Another hadith that reinforces the hadith of 'thaqalayn' is Prophet's saying that "He is the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate".

The hadiths are taken to mean that there will be an Imam from ahl-e-bayt present all the time on Earth to offer divine guidance, including authentic interpretation of the Quran.

Thus it pre-dates Fatimid Empire to Prophet himself. Mainstream Islam or Sunni Islam takes divine guidance to be the Sunnah, especially the Six authentic hadith compilations. Thus divine guidance is a feature of both the Shia and Sunni Islam.

Please learn.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:31 pm

Shirk, Kufr, Idol-worship are matters of opinion. Even if Bohras indulge in all that from your point of view, why should they be prevented to do so in a free society?
Just as I agreed to being a yazid-lover, you have now agreed that bohras indulge in shirk, kufr and idol-worship. This is progress. I think it is important to highlight this fact as much as possible on this forum to point out that shirk, kufr and idol-worship is not the fundamental basis of the bohra community and needs to be destroyed to bring the bohras out of their slavery to the human idols.

Good news. Not banned, still here. :wink:

anajmi
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:36 pm

The hadiths are taken to mean that there will be an Imam from ahl-e-bayt present all the time on Earth to offer divine guidance, including authentic interpretation of the Quran.
Well, this is another thing that we need to keep highlighting on this forum. There is no Imam offering divine guidance to the bohras. If he did, the bohras wouldn't be in a hindu court fighting over who the right Dai is. Infact, the fight about who the right Dai is has gone on for centuries. The Alavi-Dawoodi split a few centuries ago is a case in point. Hence, the conclusion is that there has been no Imam guiding the bohras for centuries.

That implies that the hadith as interpreted by the bohras cannot be the true version.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#7

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:37 pm

[deleted]
Last edited by fayyaaz on Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:40 pm

Sorry, but what I see is that, just as I agreed to being a yazid-lover, you have agreed that bohras indulge in shirk, kufr and idol-worship. There are no two ways about it.

People sometimes fall in the hole they dig for others.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:57 pm

Looks like your pants caught on fire and you had to delete them eh? :mrgreen:

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:26 pm

I agree they are a cult and display some of cult's worst characteristics like extortion and slavery to leaders. They are not imposing their views on anyone.
You must be smoking something fresh off the streets. The cult leaders have been imposing their views on their members for decades. For example, sajda to the Dai wasn't a bohra custom until the last couple of Dais. Standing in front of the Dai with folded hands and bent forward, just like the hindus stand in front of their idols, is a very recent imposition on the abdes. This slavery trickles down from the top to the bottom. There is a reason why the daawat doesn't do anymore daawat. They are too weak to impose their views on others. They got hammered a few years back simply for declaring their views out in the open. The impotent leaders are only stronger than their impotent followers. Most recently, they have been imposing their views on the followers of SKQ and when unsuccessful have indulged in name-calling and laanat-calling.

By the way, I am glad that you have seen the light of day and agree that the bohras indulge in shirk, kufr and idol-worship.
I am very happy with the secular nature of the United States Government
Which has been imposing its views on the rest of the world for decades either through subterfuge or through outright war.

abde53
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#11

Unread post by abde53 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:49 pm

Fayyaz Bhai
Are you really an Aethist.? You quote Hadith like some one who just finished Jamea. Be honest who are you?
The concept of 'continued divine guidance' is rooted in the hadith of 'thaqalayn'. Prophet has said that he leaves behind two entities: "Quran and his ahl-e-bayt". Sunnis say he said "Quran and his Sunnah". Shia believe in the first version)
Another hadith that reinforces the hadith of 'thaqalayn' is Prophet's saying that "He is the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate".

The hadiths are taken to mean that there will be an Imam from ahl-e-bayt present all the time on Earth to offer divine guidance, including authentic interpretation of the Quran.

Thus it pre-dates Fatimid Empire to Prophet himself. Mainstream Islam or Sunni Islam takes divine guidance to be the Sunnah, especially the Six authentic hadith compilations. Thus divine guidance is a feature of both the Shia and Sunni Islam.

Please learn.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#12

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:58 pm

[deleted]

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#13

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:26 pm

fayyaaz said:
Of course, I may be an atheist but that is not really important.
So, just like I agreed to being a yazid-lover, you have now agreed to being an aethist. Note the spelling. Cause I don't give a shit. abde53, please do not hesitate to repeat this fact over and over again that fayyaaz has agreed that he is a maethist. I mean an aethist.

anajmi
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:29 pm

fayyaaz realized that he was falling into the hole that he dug for me all over again and had to delete yet another dumb post of his. Too bad, I caught a piece of it.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#15

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:52 pm

[deleted]

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#16

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:10 am

Ozdundee wrote:
However, the concept of continued divine guidance is a central part of Islamic and Shia belief. Without such, one can be a cultural bohra, wear their clothes, eat their food, but one will eventually be unable to call oneself Bohra.
What concept..based on what historical foundation...Is it the foundation from the authentic verifiable Sources ?

Bohra ideology are remnants of a fallen Fatimid empire based ideology that has taken refuge in India from Yemeni indoctrinated converts and now isolated from mainstream Islam and growing only organically. In order to protect a very fragile ideology they are weeding out threats.
Oz:

You are totally ignorant about Islam and about Fatimid history or philosophy. Do you think that the Fatimid empire has fallen has anything to do with the correctness of its doctrines? The doctrines which the Fatimids adopted, were developed over centuries, starting from the time of the Prophet and Ali, and the early Imams. In fact, a large part of the more philosophical and esoteric doctrine went underground during the time of the Fatimid rule, mainly as several of those ideas are not compatible with an existence of a state. The Yemeni phase of the doctrine was a continuation of early Fatimid phase, and hence a continuation of early Islamic ideas.

The philosophical system of the Fatimids is very strong and vibrant. You don't even know anything about it, yet you have the arrogance to say it is fragile? A sure sign of hubris.

You ask for authentic, verifiable source. Yes, these are authentic and verifiable. Do you consider the Quran to be authentic and verifiable? Have you read any Fatimid/Ismali text and seen how often and how deeply it connects with the Quranic text? You have obviously not. So best not to comment and appear ignorant.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#17

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:36 am

Have you read any Fatimid/Ismali text and seen how often and how deeply it connects with the Quranic text? You have obviously not. So best not to comment and appear ignorant.
This connection is so deep that no one has actually seen it. In fact, if you try to see it, it goes even deeper and disappears. Ask Biradar to give an example of this connection and watch it disappear.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#18

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:44 am

anajmi wrote:
Have you read any Fatimid/Ismali text and seen how often and how deeply it connects with the Quranic text? You have obviously not. So best not to comment and appear ignorant.
This connection is so deep that no one has actually seen it. In fact, if you try to see it, it goes even deeper and disappears. Ask Biradar to give an example of this connection and watch it disappear.
To tell the truth, if you ask me for anything, I won't provide it. It is pointless to argue with an anti-Bohra. I don't mind you participating, and you are welcome to your views. I know you will never expand your vocabulary beyond "Kafir" so, whats the point.

Ozdundee
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#19

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:46 am

Ok so of course you would want me to justify what I stated..get ready for some shocking revelations ...

This was triggered by the comment around Devine guidance and threats of leave us if you don't like it.

Let's us start with Fatimid empire...I will start a separate topic to go in details but it is widely known in historical analysis of both Christians and Muslims that Imam Hakim triggered the collapse of the Islamic empire where by his fanatic directive to attack the Christian sacred site motivated the first crusade . So much for masum and devinely guided . Please spare me the weak defense that he was not to blame and there was a global conspiracy , the buck stops with the caliph.

Yemen there is historical view and quite widespread that Ismailis were in trouble due to the suspicion of heretic practises , this was also evident by Mughal persecution. Again where is the Devine guidance in all these .

But if you compare Bohra value to the rise of the first islamic empire and its success and impression on humanity would anyone reject a claim of devine guidance in the Islamic movement ..the point is they were sticking to fundamentals..it is only when history was manipulated and innovation introduced things started getting fragile. As Muslim I would consider the first few centuries as Devinely guided ie The Rashidun, the Initail Ahlul Bayt ..but then history started deviding Muslims into Shias and Sunnis ...and we all see the results of that fragility today. I still hold strong views after intense research that Shia Sunni split was a political racist conspiracy between Arabs, the Persians , the conquerors and conquered.

Then I stated in my comment fragile ..yes fragile because the population of Ismaili has been going reverse ..no attraction to non Ismailis who find inspiration in the the true islam. If Wahhabi a recent innovation for argument can successfully attract new converts for their causes why are you not disturbed tha Bohra faith is unpopular and has no capability to convert new members. It is very comfortable to believe we live in a very nirvana sect but try looking from the outside there is nothing so attractive . You will ask how I can say that again have we not. Been shedding followers as we Ismaili from jafari split into Mustali, Nizaris, suleimani, Alawi , PDB and recently Qutbi ...every 100-200 years a split occurs ..if you don't call that fragile what do you call it.

Fragile in the sense we live with this inferiority complex of hiding all scriptures and shroud it in secrecy ...your SMS as recently objected to openly discussing ideological issues ..in response to SKQ YouTube channel .

Now before you think I should be educated ...try reading history objectively without emotional bias . You may say if I don't like so much of it why do I stick around ...long story short ..reformer...I have to do my part.

Next someone mentioned Quranic indicators of what we practise ..I can try to counter every claim but people like Anajmi have the patience and do a better job ...but let me say anyone can draw a long bow from verses of the Quran to justify their agenda ...even Isis does the same but does it mean it is true . The way one can calibrate is the impact and outcome it has on society...please help me how is 1 million following of remnants of an ancient ideology any glaring example of a very successful devinely guided ideology and heavenly gift that has or will transform humanity in the sea of 1 .2 billion Muslims which is expanding faster than birth rate ...

anajmi
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Re: How is this forum significant?

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:17 am

Have you read any Fatimid/Ismali text and seen how often and how deeply it connects with the Quranic text?
I knew biradar wasn't going to give any examples, so here are a couple of deep connections between Fatimid/Ismaili text and the Quran from biradar.
To elaborate. Unlike the ithna-ashari beliefs, the Imam is in seclusion (not "hiding") and lives a normal life span, appointing his successor before passing away. This succession is going on for eons and will keep going.
If you go real deep into the connection with the Quran, you will see the connection with a Hindu court as well.
The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, and in another sense superior to them.
Now this one is real deep. I am still to figure the connection out with this in the Quran.

YaHussain
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:36 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#21

Unread post by YaHussain » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:21 am

ozdundee tell me have you ever step in dawoodi bohra madressa, or your knowledge comes from this forum? how much you know about fatemi literature from authentic DB books?

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#22

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:36 pm

Ozdundee's knowledge of Fatimid and Ismaili Islam comes from his objective reading of anti-Fatimid and anti-Ismaili sources.

There is a lot of anti-Muslim literature. It abounds in bookshops in the West and there are dozens of anti-Muslim websites run by Christians, Hindus and Atheists. If you carry out objective reading of these resources, you will get an objective knowledge of Islam.

Most Muslims have subjective knowledge of Islam. This is the knowledge that they were indoctrinated with in infancy. Most read literature that reinforces their indoctrination or continue to live in an environment that reinforces the indoctrination.

A minority rebels against this indoctrination and adopts contrarian views by informing themselves of opinions prevailing against their indoctrination. Their rebellion gets reinforced by the new information and they then proceed to attack the religion in which they grew up. This minority becomes anti-X, where X is the religion of their indoctrination. They become convinced that they now have the objective knowledge of religion.

A larger number of rebels just see through the entire game of indoctrination and simply leave the whole enterprise alone and let the the indoctrinated practice their religions in peace. They are tolerant of diversity of views. They revel in richness of the diversity and find it valuable and may even learn a thing or two from the practitioners.

Remember what I said before about religion. It is designed to comfort conscious or unconscious existential threat of mortality. It is best to let people cope with that fear in their own way. They may worship one God, many Gods, their leaders, their deceased ancestors, trees, planets, stars, sacred stones, sacred books and other objects. Not every one gets stuck in one ancient view, Islam, Christianity or Hinduism. They are all solutions to the existential fear. It is best to respect all.

Anti-Bohras like Ozdundee may be the majority on this forum but are definitely a minority in larger scheme of things. As far as Reform is concerned anti-Bohras are irrelevant.

YaHussain
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Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:36 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#23

Unread post by YaHussain » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:43 pm

Salaam on you bhai fayyaz.

good to know people like you.

even if you are athiest, you are far better than those born muslims/bohras who know nothing about their religion, but just shout on roof top that they are muslims and bohra. normally they just increase numbers but bring no goodness to Islam.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:16 pm

It is best to respect all.
This advice works for those that are atheists. They do not care about any religion and hence they "respect" all religions. For example, when SKQ decided to pronounce himself as the next Dawoodi Bohra Dai, did SMS leave him and his followers alone? No, there were laanats and signing sprees in the middle of the night and effigy burnings etc etc. Similarly, did SKQ just leave SMS to be or did he go to court against him?

This advice is actually of no use on this forum as most people on this forum won't indulge in any of the acts of SKQ or SMS listed above. They live their lives in peace and have left the bohras alone. For example anajmi or Al Zulfikar for example have just given up on kothar jamaats. We do not go do a dharna in front of the bohra markaz or maataamkhana. We just come on this forum to provide our point of view. That is what this forum is for. I haven't set foot in a bohra masjid in close to 2 decades. As the last time I went, I couldn't figure out when asr started and when zuhr ended. I had to go home and pray again. Of course I did have some war of words when people close to me were prevented from attending a funeral and in another instance from attending a wedding. This advice should be directed towards those intolerant [DELETED]s.

In fact SBM whom I know as well is being heavily involved with activities that involve both shia and sunni participation so as to bring them closer together, as Al Zulfikar correctly pointed out. He does the good work in real life and then we have fools like fayyaaz who like to shoot their mouths off over here but are good for nothing.

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#25

Unread post by SBM » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:05 pm

YaHussain wrote:Salaam on you bhai fayyaz.

good to know people like you.

even if you are athiest, you are far better than those born muslims/bohras who know nothing about their religion, but just shout on roof top that they are muslims and bohra. normally they just increase numbers but bring no goodness to Islam.
Yep that reminds of SMS--- Shezaadas and Aamils

Ozdundee
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#26

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:09 pm

Personal attacks but no substantive counter arguments ...,read our books .,. Where are these Bohra books

Yes I went to Bohra Maderasa and no not to Jamia, also went to Sabaq again no books no references just a booklet guarded by the Amil. If you have high and mighty books let it be challenged by literary muscle and if you are so confident in it your book would be last man standing

I have visited libraries in Cairo, Shia library in Tanzania , Saudi , uae all open online Ismaili library all open and accessible . I have even suggested pdb open a virtual library.

Anyway some zealots forget anti bohra and critic analysis are 2 different things but so what the point is when one realizes there are flaws in something some try to correct it while others patch it to conceal it

Which lasts longer
Last edited by Ozdundee on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#27

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:14 pm

anajmi wrote: In fact SBM whom I know as well is being heavily involved with activities that involve both shia and sunni participation so as to bring them closer together, as Al Zulfikar correctly pointed out. He does the good work in real life ......
I do not find it beyond belief that he does good work in real life. Most people do. The least they do is look after their families.

I wonder how he proposes to bring the Shia and Sunni together. He does not display much scholarship about either branch of Islam on this forum. He mostly sides with Yazid-loving Wahhabi here. Nice way to please the Shia. He is a vocal anti-Bohra and throws in his lot with AZ, the acerbic Bohra-taunting bard on this forum.

Perhaps he can demonstrate his reconciliation skills by reconciling Bohras and anti-Bohras on this forum for a start.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:21 pm

You need to get this into your head that the bohras of today are not shia or even muslims. As you have agreed, they are now mired in kufr, shirk and idol-worship. So we first need to get the bohras straightened out. Get them out of their shirk, kufr and idol-worship back in shia-ism and then we take the next step.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: How is this forum significant?

#29

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:52 pm

Birader,
I confess I know little of Fatimid literature and philosophy, but I'll not hesitate to join you and wallow in its glories till the end of time, when Qaim al Qiam will come, as promised by the said literature, and set this world right. Until such time what are we supposed to do? The Old Testament quote, "man does not live by bread alone" can very well be put on it's head, "man does not live by glories alone". It is a common defence mechanism to revert to the past and its greatness when the present fails to live up to the promise.

The greatness of Fatimid philosophy is all fine and dandy, and I appreciate it as I do other intellectual and creative achievements of mankind as part of our common heritage. But all this begs the question, what has all this great Fatimid doctrine and philosophy resulted in? In Mufaddal Saifuddin? Isn't that a tragedy? Doesn't that call that boast of greatness into question? On the face of it, it would seem that SMS does not invalidate the Fatimid doctrine any more than ISIS invalidates the Quran. But if you give it a moment's thought, it actually does.

Imamat is central to Shia/Isamili beliefs. Let's accept that the necessity of divine guidance through the Imam can be traced to the Quran. Let us also accept that the Imam is infallible, and also accept other secondary attributes the Imam is supposed to have. Let's accept all that. Much in religious theology is purely at the level of beliefs, meaning it does not have practical implications in real life: like the belief in one god, or the holy trinity or ahlul bayt or Brahman the creator etc.

But the concept of Imamat and the role of Imam is not a matter of pure, abstract belief. The Imam is the divine guide, right? His job is to guide? (Maula Ali and Imam Hussain stand out as sterling examples.) In present time would it be too impolite to ask where is the divine guide? Just believing in the existence of the Imam is not enough, because the more important belief attached to the Imam is that he is a guide, and divine to boot. So the believers who believe in the Imam but are contented with that Imam not divinely guiding them are not true to their beliefs. Are they? If the Imam exist then he must guide. If he exists and is not guiding then he is not doing his job. Of course, the Shias and Ismailis have thought out the answers to this dilemma by such devices as occultation, taqqiya etc. But one cursory look at their history will reveal that these explanation do not hold much water.

The other belief in Fatimid doctrine is that there can be only one Imam at any given time, and that he his divinely appointed. Again, one look at history and this belief - which has practical implications - also falls apart. The succession dispute right after Imam Jaffar us Sadiq (or was it after Imam Zain ul Abideen?) the belief in divine appointment of the Imam comes into question. Even if we were to ignore this discrepancy, we still have to deal with multiple Imams? That puts paid to the belief of one divine guide at any one given time. By rough count there are might be six or seven Imams in existence today and all claiming to be divinely appointed and divinely guided, and most of them are in hiding and not guiding, not doing the only job they are supposed to do.

As for Bohra dais and their succession drama down the ages, the less said the better.

I point all this out not to mock Fatimid beliefs, but to show the dichotomy between belief and reality, between faith and praxis. The two Bohra Dais are wrangling it out in broad daylight and the Imam is blissfully absent. Isn't it the Imam according to our Bohra beliefs who should be appointing the dai? Then why is there a dispute? Why was there a dispute so many other times in the past? Obviously some "Dais" don't listen to the Imam, and the infallible and divinely guided Imam can do nothing about it. If that is the case, then the Imam and the belief in Imamat once again comes into question. Does it not cause Bohras today to wonder, where is their (Bohra) Imam? Doesn't it make you wonder? Why is their Imam allowing the community, once again, to go to pieces? Of course, we are told, there is some hikma in it. And that hikma will be revealed to us, if ever, when Qaim al Qiam comes. But by then it might be too late and that hikma would have no practical use, at least in the here and now where the likes of Mufaddal Saifuddin reign freely, (and where the likes of some pedantic, hyper-analytical, hair-splitting atheist will support their right to do so as long as they do not break the law).

Given the mess we have inherited and are now openly witnessing, what is stopping you and other faithfuls from questioning the Imam and the belief in Imamat? This is not a trick question, I genuinely want to know. However. there are many who have already started questioning although not publicly for they fear being dubbed as heretic and wahabbi and what not. I do not discount that there are motivated anti-shia elements who have found an open wound here to turn the knife. Still, the stock reaction to call anyone who questions Imamat as anti-Bohra or wahabbi is to evade the issue. I see that you too have fallen into the trap of false categories and have started calling people anti-bohras and such.

Anyway, this post has turned out to be much longer than I intended, but before I end I want to stress that questioning the belief in Imamat does not amount to questioning the greatness of Fatimid literature and philosophy. You know much of that philosophy is not only abstract and esoteric but also outdated - and most of it today is confined to scholarly research and academia. Of course it has its value and place in the history of human development and it must be preserved and celebrated. But let us not forget that crooks like Mufaddal Saifuddin or a lesser culprit like Khuzema Qutbuddin are using the great Fatimid doctrine to prop up their nefarious regimes. The belief in Imamat cannot co-exist with what that belief has entailed: Mufaddal Saifuddin. The disconnect is too glaring to be ignored. And when this is pointed out, and no matter who is doing the pointing out, we can do better than get defensive.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: How is this forum significant?

#30

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:33 pm

Humsafar,

Reality of Dawoodi Bohras as I see it.

SMS has most followers. He would like to have SKQ's followers too.

SKQ would like to have SMS's followers.

Both sets believe in their version of Islam, Imamat and the rightness of their divinely appointed leader. Dawoodi Bohras according to anti-Bohras, have become non-Muslims, Mushriks and Idol-worshipers. According them Imam and Imamat is a fiction and Dawoodi Bohras are a cult of the worst possible kind. However, they do not threaten outsiders and do not break any law. Liberal governments guarantee their freedom to practice their religion.

If you were born into this cult, you have four options if you do not like this cult.

1. Leave the cult. Be an ex-Bohra. Be happy.

2. Take up fight a la Wahhabis. Become a Wahhabi ex-Bohra. Call Dawoodi Bohras Mushriks, Kafirs and Idol-worshipers at every opportunity. Get the followers punished by whatever legal means available to you. Be unhappy. I would not advocate an illegal option and perpetrate Wahhabi style violence against Bohras.

3. Remain in the cult and work from within to change the system by learning the religion and their books and point out to fellow cultists how to become better Muslims by abandoning deviant Fatimid beliefs and return to pure Fatimid beliefs. In other words, remain a Bohra and become an anti-Kothar Bohra.

4. Remain in the cult and bitch about your condition all the time. Unhappily participate in all activities. Become an anti-Bohra.

Do you have any other option? Remember, I do not pass any value judgement for or against the Bohra religion. They have their ways and I have mine. They are free to practice their religion as long as they do not break the Law. Now, you may not like what I am saying but there is difference in not liking it and putting up an argument against all the options and propose different ones.