Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

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fustrate_Bohra
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Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#1

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:32 am

We say that we are GOD FEARING people but i had observed in many many of our DAWOODI BOHRA house they are NO photo of MECCA MEDINA, even if they have they are in no match with DAI photos.

If you dont have DAI photo people or jamaat people may raise eye brows considering that you are KAFIR but similar questions will not come in the absence of MECCA photo which is house of GOD.

Why our dai NEVER ever made compulsion to have MECCA photo at our house? I had seen brainless abdes seeing dai photos and doing matam before going out. Why our dai dont say to do that thing while seeing mecca photo.

We says muslim non bohra are bhatkela but it is these so called bhatkela who give tremendous respect to NABI and ALLAH.

Just see their house you will find none of their house WITHOUT mecca photo and look at ours you will find very few who give more importance or atleast equal importance to MECCA.

This is my personal opinion based on my observation.

asad
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#2

Unread post by asad » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:57 am

For Bohras definetely its Dai, how silly of you to even ask.

on a serious note, recently i asked one of my friend this same question and his reply was Kabir's doha

"Guru gobind dou khade, kake laagu pau,
Balihari guru aapne, Govind diyo batay"


Actually whole shiasm is based on this doha where Imam or dai is superior as we have already discussed on this forum that even Imam depends on dai to introduce him as the real Imam. So in the end Dai is greater than all combined.

Dumbledore
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#3

Unread post by Dumbledore » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:34 am

Yeh kya betuka sawaal hai "who is bigger Dai or Allah?"

fustrate_Bohra
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#4

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:36 am

My dear friend this BETUKA sawaal is sarcastically asked.

DisillusionedDB
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#5

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:50 am

fustrate_Bohra wrote: Why our dai NEVER ever made compulsion to have MECCA photo at our house?
According to bohras, Dai is "Haqiqi Kaaba" so it's useless having the "duplicate" Mecca Kaaba photo when you already have the real deal.
fustrate_Bohra wrote:but it is these so called bhatkela who give tremendous respect to NABI and ALLAH
According to bohras, Dai is "ilah-ul-ardh" himself so it's useless to think about Nabi and Allah.

Munira_RV
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#6

Unread post by Munira_RV » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:59 am

fustrate_Bohra wrote: We says muslim non bohra are bhatkela but it is these so called bhatkela who give tremendous respect to NABI and ALLAH.
This is my personal opinion based on my observation.
bhatkela log aur unke leader (Doosra number wala) Nabi Mohammad (PBUH) ko dimaag se paagal mante he (mazallah). (yeh baat unki Muslim aur Bukhari me lekheli he).

Dumbledore
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#7

Unread post by Dumbledore » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:00 am

DisillusionedDB wrote:
fustrate_Bohra wrote: Why our dai NEVER ever made compulsion to have MECCA photo at our house?
According to bohras, Dai is "Haqiqi Kaaba" so it's useless having the "duplicate" Mecca Kaaba photo when you already have the real deal.
fustrate_Bohra wrote:but it is these so called bhatkela who give tremendous respect to NABI and ALLAH
According to bohras, Dai is "ilah-ul-ardh" himself so it's useless to think about Nabi and Allah.
Astaghfirullah...

WiththenameofAllah
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#8

Unread post by WiththenameofAllah » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:07 am

Brother frustrate bohra you will find many such incidents. Bohras saying roza namaz all for dai( i know many will negate but these are the ones who sleep in waaz and only open their eyes when it is shouted Moula Moula Mufadil Moula :P )
For bohras deedar of dai is everything even important than namaz :D
What can one do. May Allah bring downfall to thsi culta nd guide us all ameen.

mukhtaarhusain
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#9

Unread post by mukhtaarhusain » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:23 pm

For Bohra pple Moula is greater than AL MIGHTY ALLAH..In each n every thing they will Shukar MOULA... Moula ni dua che...Moula nu shukar che..Moula nu Ehsaan che..Moula nu Karam che etc......Very few pple will say Khuda nu Shukar or Karam or Ehsaan che...Now d SMB URUS MELA is going to start..n d Kothar Gang has lift their sleeves to show that they can convert their graves into KAABA...

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#10

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:16 pm

They go even a step further by saying that those who dont love the dai, their namaz wont be accepted by Allah. Hence it is better to use ones brain and decide. Zakat is given importance because it is a major source of income for the dai, when is the last time we heard that humanity and love for Allah and his Rasul (s.a.w.) supercedes everything else !!!

seeker110
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#11

Unread post by seeker110 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:33 pm

I would say Imam. Allah speaks Arabic and Dai speaks jibberish. So Imam has to understand both, so that, they both can communicate with each other.

Without Imam everything goes standstill.

DisillusionedDB
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#12

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:54 am

WiththenameofAllah wrote:For bohras deedar of dai is everything even important than namaz :D
Humour apart, unfortunately, this is very true .. I have heard a jamea educated lady as well as a miyasaab saying "namaaz-namaaz su karo cho .. mola no deedar wadhare important che"

DisillusionedDB
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#13

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:57 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:They go even a step further by saying that those who dont love the dai, their namaz wont be accepted by Allah.
In one of the ashara waaz, I heard that if you don't have love for dai, even Imam Husain's dua will not work for you :roll:

asad
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#14

Unread post by asad » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:24 am

Br. GM and others

Bohras have a belief according to which Syedna will hold your hand and take you to Jannat, even if you have not fulfilled any basic tenets of Islam and just have walayat of the dai you are guaranteed a spot in Jannat. Allah has put down the guidelines in Quran on who will enter the Jannat but Bohri dai has an upper hand and he can completely disregard the list and take people with him whoever he likes.

we had an old saying of "Jise Allah rakhe use kon chakhe" Bohris believe "Jise Dai rakhe use kon chakhe" time for them to start saying La ilaha illa Dai.

WiththenameofAllah
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#15

Unread post by WiththenameofAllah » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:29 am

Recently heard from somebody that if between husband and wife one of the partner does not love dai the children they will bear will not be pure.

yuzarsif
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#16

Unread post by yuzarsif » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:34 am

Allah to sirf namaaz me yaad aaya.
aur maula to har waqt yaad aaya.
Kaaba ki ek bhi tasweer nahi gharme
aur Moula ki tasweero se pura ghar sajaya.
namaz ki parwa kise.
deedar karke sawab kamaya.
gareebo aur jaroorat mando ko ek paisa na diya.
zyafat me lakho rupya lootaya.
Allah ki khusi se kya wasta
bus Dai ko hi hamne khus karaya.

alam
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#17

Unread post by alam » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:02 am

It seems to me that this could be a new development - I don't recall my grandparents nor my parents - who happened to be highly AALIM, talk this way of Dai being bigger than Allah.

I think this is the kind of thing that probably started ever so slowly at snail-pace, that it escaped notice. The whole shift and digression toward magnifying the importance of the Syedna came at the expense of replacing Allah. The very elderly among us might recall that era - and are likely the ones most held hostage - to the gradually new set of beliefs and mandates shoved down their throat. Never thought I would say this but I know i am not alone in voicing this, that am I glad my parents didn't have to live through and face the hatred and abuse that one mumin does to another these days. And then too all In the name of Faith - Nauzobillah.

The decent thing would be for both parties to sort it out privately and save the masses from hurling lanaats and abuse toward each other. But when egos get so large as to become God Almighty, then even the heavens can't stop then.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#18

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:57 pm

asad wrote:Bohras have a belief according to which Syedna will hold your hand and take you to Jannat, even if you have not fulfilled any basic tenets of Islam and just have walayat of the dai you are guaranteed a spot in Jannat. Allah has put down the guidelines in Quran on who will enter the Jannat but Bohri dai has an upper hand and he can completely disregard the list and take people with him whoever he likes.
That's the crux of "Ruku Chithi" !!! Even Allah (swt) cant grant Jannat to anyone unless he sees the Dai's Ruku chithi.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#19

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:06 pm

i have also heard that those who do not have love for dai, their maatam will not be accepted by hussain. if dai is unhappy with you, then imam hussain ki kuch bhi nahi chalegi, no matter you do maatam for 2 hours or 2 days. in fact all the panjatan will give you a cold shoulder.

with brother hoze up in heaven keeping an eye on them, mufatlal is exercising control over the panjatan. they dare not grant your mannats, prayers or whatever. pehle mufatlal ko ziyafat do 2 crore rs ke salaam ke saath, phir panjatan ko yaad karo.

james
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#20

Unread post by james » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:16 pm

asad wrote:Br. GM and others

Bohras have a belief according to which Syedna will hold your hand and take you to Jannat, even if you have not fulfilled any basic tenets of Islam and just have walayat of the dai you are guaranteed a spot in Jannat. Allah has put down the guidelines in Quran on who will enter the Jannat but Bohri dai has an upper hand and he can completely disregard the list and take people with him whoever he likes.
Asad,

Do you disagree that Prophet Mohammed SAW tied the reward of Paradise with the walayah/love for his Ahle Bayt?

If you're in agreement then could you please update your post by adding "Ahle Bayt"? This is to put things in a context.

Kaka Akela
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#21

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:54 am

It seems to me that this could be a new development - I don't recall my grandparents nor my parents - who happened to be highly AALIM, talk this way of Dai being bigger than Allah.

I think this is the kind of thing that probably started ever so slowly at snail-pace, that it escaped notice. The whole shift and digression toward magnifying the importance of the Syedna came at the expense of replacing Allah. The very elderly among us might recall that era - and are likely the ones most held hostage - to the gradually new set of beliefs and mandates shoved down their throat. Never thought I would say this but I know i am not alone in voicing this, that am I glad my parents didn't have to live through and face the hatred and abuse that one mumin does to another these days. And then too all In the name of Faith - Nauzobillah.
Bro Alam:
This concept of Dai is bigger than Allah was created and propogated by none other than Y Najmuddin the rector of Jamea tus Saifiyah. he brainwashed the staff and students with his own communistic thinking that Dai is all and everyone was a nobody. these teacher and and students continue preaching the same philosophy. there used to be one jamea and now they have 4 and that many more graduating and spreading into the community. I am a very old man and now I am seeing the times of 3rd dai. you are right when you say that it was not so in your grandparents time but now it has become a living cancer in the community.
in my younger days the only thing my parents paid to jamat was Sabeel and my parents did ajamaat jaman in our town voluntarily. Now first thing do is make groups of 5 families and assign them jamans for every and all ocassion, so this jaman thing is like running on cruise control, and the aamil can decide to hold all urus and all darees and 10mi raat majalis with jamans on cruise control. this creates a lot of burden on many families as their turn comes 3-4 times a year to feed the whole jamaat. then they separate ughranas for moharrum, ramadaan and maqdams, and lately for any of the 4 qardan hasana schemes.
In my jamaat people are so worried but who can they talk to, ours has become a communist society where everyone is gauging everyones aqida and reporting to the aamil to receive brownie points for themselves.

nomoneybohra
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#22

Unread post by nomoneybohra » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:48 pm

This question was answered long ago when Tabodaat was started. Rasullullah & Imam us Zaman Milads were relegated at the back of the queue of Dai's Milad. Bohras were told if they could not make it to all the 40 days of Tabodaat, they had to come on Dai's milad or not consider themselves bohras. The 1st urus of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (RA) is turned into a similar event to show one's bohraness. Aarey, if there was no Rasul and no Imam then there will be no Dai to speak of today. Why can't Bohras understand this simple fact?

Humsafar
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#23

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:57 pm

Kaka Akela wrote:In my jamaat people are so worried but who can they talk to, ours has become a communist society where everyone is gauging everyones aqida and reporting to the aamil to receive brownie points for themselves.
I'm sure you mean a fascist society. The qualities you describe are that of a fascist society.

Biradar
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#24

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:41 pm

Answer to the question: Allah. I am not even sure why one would ask this question in the first place. Of course, what goes on in the mind of Dawedar Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin (DMMS) I don't know. In my opinion, he is an atheist (like our friend faayyaz). However, he is habituated to a life of luxury and decadence, and hence continues the charade, and will continue it till Bohras stop subsidizing his and his Yazidi-family's lifestyle.

I had an interesting experience about four years ago, during sabaak given by a Jameea educated bhaisaheb. First, this bhaisaheb, to his credit, was a very nice man, unlike the crazy Amils one sees in many cities. He was a simpleton, but had the advantage of having a kind heart. In any case, during a sabaak he made the statement that "Da'i is 'rabb' on Earth". There were only 3-4 people in the room, and I obviously was shocked. He saw it on my face, and then immediately changed his tune, saying that "rabb" means "master", like "master of household". He went into a tangent, about the missing definite article 'Ar', which would mean Allah. Later, he indicated to me directly that what I inferred was correct, however, it would have to wait till taa'wil sabaak to be clarified.

So, it is possible that in some circles of Jameea, the da'i is considered to be rabb on Earth. Perhaps not Allah himself, but close, at least in terrestrial matters. There is also a move in Jameea to elevate the da'i to above the position of Imam Hassan. (I am not sure if the miyasaheb who said the following meant it that way, but one can see that this absurd belief is implicit). The miyasaheb said that Imam Hassan is a mustawda imam, and not mustaqar imam. (Which, incidentally, is incorrect). Then, a few sentences later, he said that the da'i of sataar are above the rank of mustawda imam. One can now connect the dots, even though he did not explicitly do so.

anajmi
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:32 pm

Didn't you say a few days ago that the Dais are "in a way" superior to the Nabis of the Quran? This is your exact quote.
The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, and in another sense superior to them.

Biradar
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#26

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:07 pm

anajmi wrote:Didn't you say a few days ago that the Dais are "in a way" superior to the Nabis of the Quran? This is your exact quote.
The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, and in another sense superior to them.
What is your point? How is it relevant to what I said? Does it mention in the Quran that the nabis were superior to Allah or no human beings can be superior to them? Please remember, I do not include the 6 naatiq prophets in this, as they brought new revelations, ending the era of the previous prophet, and inaugurating a new one.

Kaka Akela
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#27

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:34 pm

If they say Dai is a rab: that should be ok as rab is the root word for tarbiyat. Dai is giving us tarbiyat in deen and duniya. our ma & baap can be our rab as well.

But when they say he is Ilah ul arz, then it should be considered as shirk even if they mean it metaphorically.

anajmi
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:28 pm

What is your point?
My point is simple. If "in a sense" the Dais are superior to the nabis mentioned in the Quran, then maybe they in some other sense, they are superior to Allah? Fatimid literature has a lot of "in a sense" loop holes that give anyone any stature they like.

For example, consider Ismail (as) who is not amongst the 6 that you mentioned. Is a Dai, any Dai, superior to him in any sense? How about Nabi Suleman (as)?

asad
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#29

Unread post by asad » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:29 pm

Kaka Akela wrote:If they say Dai is a rab: that should be ok as rab is the root word for tarbiyat. Dai is giving us tarbiyat in deen and duniya. our ma & baap can be our rab as well.

But when they say he is Ilah ul arz, then it should be considered as shirk even if they mean it metaphorically.
Kaka Akela,

Bohras have twisted every thing to elevate their Dai and Imam to Superhuman or rather Allah's status. they tweak it so beautifully that it takes a lot of effort to find out where they are leading. For example the Tashahud Bohras read in Salaat in the end has words similar to Waleden(parents) being Rabbus sageer. Now if a Bohri teacher tells them that waledain are rabbus sageer but our Moula is Rabbul Kabeer or Ilahul Ardh than it dosent take Bohras much effort to believe it.

People who have read Haqiqat sabak can vouch that Qaim is supposed to proclaim that he is Allah when at the end of times he will proclaim Inni Annallah. Now go and figure that out.

fayyaaz
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Re: Who is bigger DAI or ALLAH?

#30

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:05 am

asad wrote:
Kaka Akela wrote:If they say Dai is a rab: that should be ok as rab is the root word for tarbiyat. Dai is giving us tarbiyat in deen and duniya. our ma & baap can be our rab as well.

But when they say he is Ilah ul arz, then it should be considered as shirk even if they mean it metaphorically.
Kaka Akela,

Bohras have twisted every thing to elevate their Dai and Imam to Superhuman or rather Allah's status. they tweak it so beautifully that it takes a lot of effort to find out where they are leading. For example the Tashahud Bohras read in Salaat in the end has words similar to Waleden(parents) being Rabbus sageer. Now if a Bohri teacher tells them that waledain are rabbus sageer but our Moula is Rabbul Kabeer or Ilahul Ardh than it dosent take Bohras much effort to believe it.

People who have read Haqiqat sabak can vouch that Qaim is supposed to proclaim that he is Allah when at the end of times he will proclaim Inni Annallah. Now go and figure that out.
asad,

You really twisted the tashahud!

It is "wa liwalidayya warhumhuma kama rabbayani sagheeran". It means "As for my parents, have mercy on them as they did while they looked after me when I was little". Nothing here about little rabb. rabbayani is not from rabb (lord) but the verb rabbaya which means rearing or raising children. I will say more about this in a separate post.