Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

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Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#211

Unread post by Al-Noor » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:51 am

Some times I feel there is lot of similarity between muffy abdes and abdes of asharam bapu...

Both are criminals.
Both don't have any knowledge of their own deen.
Both are money and lady lovers.
Both brainwash their respective abdes.
Both have shady backgrounds and emerged from nowhere.
Both have no degree or any scholarly backgrounds.
Both try to hide facts and kill or threaten witnesses.
Both looks grumpy.
Both are friend to narendra modi.
Both have brainless zombie followers.
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james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#212

Unread post by james » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:54 am

zinger wrote:
james wrote: Talk about missing the point!

Let's recap your fallacies,You claimed that majority of people are away from Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS.The simple proof in support of your claims to show how the people don't come to his bethaks or masajids under his tutelage or his sermons.Go on,try putting opinions across backed with some shred of evidence.

The simple proof against your nonsensical opinions would be to ask to compare the throngs of crowds between the two eras. Unless you believe Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA also kept majority of people away (Nauzobillah).
Again, same question... Are you saying that more people attend now than they did? Or are you saying less people attend now than they did then? Or are you saying that the number of people attending now and then are the same?
It's self explanatory.

Because you're slow,I will erase your doubt and pick affirmative to your third question.

kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#213

Unread post by kimanumanu » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:15 am

james wrote: What do you want to discuss regarding London? Do you think this is happening for the first time in history? You couldn't have been wrong.Time and time again people have wronged and done things which is against the nehej of Dawat. Be it the Burhanpur Dargah Case or the Udaipuris of 70s or Africa incident in recent history.

Do you want to discuss increment of Sabeel in London which has taken place during Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS's era? Do you think this has happened for the first time? Do you think Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA did not increase Sabeel wherever he saw fit? You couldn't have been more wrong. A recent case in point would be Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA's visit to Kolkata on eve of Chelum in the year 1432 Hijri.

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA = Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS. Remember this always.
Yes, please explain what is against the nehej of Dawat?

dawedaar
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#214

Unread post by dawedaar » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:45 am

Wow, so quoting from Maula Ali (AS) and applying it to all spheres of life makes me a lowlife and accoding to you, we should apply teachings of awaliyah ullah to selective aspects in life and not all?? You compare so called dawedaar to Yazid, wow! You are comparing the conditions of Ahle Bait (AS) after the Shahadat of Imam Hussain (AS) under which Maulatena Zainab (AS) had to take those steps to present day situation. Look at yourself and your comparison. You are contradicting your own leaders who say time and again that the musibat and tragedy that Imam Hussain (AS) and his family witnessed is incomparable and here you are comparing it to present day situation (Nauzobillah). At present, the extravagant and opulent lifestyle of your leader and his entire family matches that of Yazid!

And why would I not reply to your loopholes filled arguments!
james wrote:
dawedaar wrote:

Hey James and Adam, someone has posted this on facebook,

"Hate no one, no matter how much they’ve wronged you. Live humbly, no matter how wealthy you become. Think positively, no matter how hard life is. Give much, even if you’ve been given little. Keep in touch with the ones who have forgotten you, and forgive who has wronged you, and do not stop praying for the best for those you love." -Ali Ibn Abi Talib S.A

I don't think so that the present happenings in the bohra jamaat is according to what Maula Ali (SA) has advised. Most bayaans have a dawedaar bashing and lanatbaazi session. What do you guys say? I am not accepting a reply from those 2 as they shy away when asked a tough question. Let's see if they have guts to comment on this!
I dig your passive-aggressive melodrama. :mrgreen:

A lowlife will see akaalim or a quote and apply it to every sphere of life and its circumstances.Perhaps you take issue with Moulatena Zainab AS for taking umbrage against Yazid and his ilk (People who wronged her), Nauzobillah.

Let's see if you have the guts to reply to this example.(Taking a leaf out of your book)

james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#215

Unread post by james » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:52 pm

dawedaar wrote:Wow, so quoting from Maula Ali (AS) and applying it to all spheres of life makes me a lowlife and accoding to you, we should apply teachings of awaliyah ullah to selective aspects in life and not all?? You compare so called dawedaar to Yazid, wow! You are comparing the conditions of Ahle Bait (AS) after the Shahadat of Imam Hussain (AS) under which Maulatena Zainab (AS) had to take those steps to present day situation. Look at yourself and your comparison. You are contradicting your own leaders who say time and again that the musibat and tragedy that Imam Hussain (AS) and his family witnessed is incomparable and here you are comparing it to present day situation (Nauzobillah). At present, the extravagant and opulent lifestyle of your leader and his entire family matches that of Yazid!

And why would I not reply to your loopholes filled arguments!
Again,did Moulatena Zainab AS not know that her esteemed father Ameerul Mumineen AS has decreed "Hate no one,no matter how much they've wronged you" ? Do you reckon she chose to ignore the sayings of Imam Ali AS ? (Nauzobillah).

If you think that she was right in her sermon in the court of Yazid La then this proves that you're a lowlife as per my observation as she was selective in where to exercise her hate and where not to.

The similarities are,

Yazid stood against the Imam of his time.
Nizar stood against the Imam of his time.
Ali ibn Ibrahim stood against the Dai Mutlaq of his time.
Khuzaima stood against the Dai Mutlaq of his time.

Comprende?

james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#216

Unread post by james » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:59 pm

Al-Noor wrote:@james
you still defending muffy? you cant be real for sure...whoever you are love for money has blinded your soul, brother hundreds of halaal money is far better than millions of haraam. please dont spoil your akhirah for money.
Are you still breathing?

Oxygen Thief. :lol:

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#217

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:25 am

James wrote:
Nizar stood against the Imam of his time.
James, welcome back. Why don't you open a new thread in Islam section under the above allegation, and we can discuss this.

I do not want to divert this thread and hence my request. If you wish, I can open the thread, provided you will participate and not run away. May be we can learn from each other.

dawedaar
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#218

Unread post by dawedaar » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:38 am

Come on James, here Maulatena Zainab AS had her brother beheaded and her entire family tortured. What compares that tragedy to present day situation? You are avoiding that question altogether. Maultena Zainab (AS)'s outrage at Yazid is justified. Switch to present day, look who is tormenting whom! Your leader is undertaking marathon ziyafats, nikahs, qadams, baithaks etc and laughing all the way to the bank and at the same time terrorizing and coercing the entire community and holding them hostage to his fear!

For example, recent letter by Shk Mohammed Raja from Leicester UK that's been circulated where he claims that he was mentally tortured and forced to pledge oath to SMS during his tour to Dubai in Dec 2014 but then went back to SKQ and gave his allegiance to him. I had emailed him anonymously and he swear on Allah and Quran shareef that whatever written in that letter is true! I hope you have read that letter!
james wrote:
Again,did Moulatena Zainab AS not know that her esteemed father Ameerul Mumineen AS has decreed "Hate no one,no matter how much they've wronged you" ? Do you reckon she chose to ignore the sayings of Imam Ali AS ? (Nauzobillah).

If you think that she was right in her sermon in the court of Yazid La then this proves that you're a lowlife as per my observation as she was selective in where to exercise her hate and where not to.

The similarities are,

Yazid stood against the Imam of his time.
Nizar stood against the Imam of his time.
Ali ibn Ibrahim stood against the Dai Mutlaq of his time.
Khuzaima stood against the Dai Mutlaq of his time.

Comprende?

james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#219

Unread post by james » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:47 am

JavedhJuma wrote:James wrote:
Nizar stood against the Imam of his time.
James, welcome back. Why don't you open a new thread in Islam section under the above allegation, and we can discuss this.

I do not want to divert this thread and hence my request. If you wish, I can open the thread, provided you will participate and not run away. May be we can learn from each other.
Funny that you ask me not to run away when your frustration is evident on Usool-a-Kafi thread.You're the cherry picking sort which is a dishonest way as far as debates and discussion are concerned.

Anyone could post ahadith in support of their opinions against your nonsensical claims and your retort will be that you don't give much weight to ahadith thereby making the debate moot.

Your fantasy world revolves around the opinions of paid up stooges like Ivanov when you should be holding fast to the various books written under the guardianship of Imam Moiz AS.

First learn the ethics of debating.

james
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:06 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#220

Unread post by james » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:54 am

dawedaar wrote:Come on James, here Maulatena Zainab AS had her brother beheaded and her entire family tortured. What compares that tragedy to present day situation? You are avoiding that question altogether. Maultena Zainab (AS)'s outrage at Yazid is justified. Switch to present day, look who is tormenting whom! Your leader is undertaking marathon ziyafats, nikahs, qadams, baithaks etc and laughing all the way to the bank and at the same time terrorizing and coercing the entire community and holding them hostage to his fear!
Are you now claiming that hate is justified in circumstances where death and torture takes place? Does that mean you don't apply the words of Imam Ali AS in every sphere of life and its circumstances? My my,that's a major step down from the opinion you had earlier,

For example, recent letter by Shk Mohammed Raja from Leicester UK that's been circulated where he claims that he was mentally tortured and forced to pledge oath to SMS during his tour to Dubai in Dec 2014 but then went back to SKQ and gave his allegiance to him. I had emailed him anonymously and he swear on Allah and Quran shareef that whatever written in that letter is true! I hope you have read that letter!
Mohammed Raja is another one thrown under the bus by Khuzaima and his children.It's very clear that from time to time they need propaganda material to keep confusing the people from Haq.First there was a Taizoon Shakir and now there is a Mohammed Raja.

Note December 2014 and July 2015. Did you ask him anonymously why he waited 6-7 months to publish that letter? :wink:

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#221

Unread post by Al-Noor » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:09 am

Al-Noor wrote:Some times I feel there is lot of similarity between muffy abdes and abdes of asharam bapu...

Both are criminals.
Both don't have any knowledge of their own deen.
Both are money and lady lovers.
Both brainwash their respective abdes.
Both have shady backgrounds and emerged from nowhere.
Both have no degree or any scholarly backgrounds.
Both try to hide facts and kill or threaten witnesses.
Both looks grumpy.
Both are friend to narendra modi.
Both have brainless zombie followers.
PS - Both will take their follower straight to hell (Infact followers already witnessing hell in this world) :lol:
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qjbj
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:47 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#222

Unread post by qjbj » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:37 am

^
The above MS photo reminds me of the Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom movie. Teri jaan meri mutthi mein hain proclaimed to zombie Abdes by MS. The good news is like in the movie, Kaali Maa and the evil/corrupt leader gets destroyed, so wil this MS and his goondas will be brought down and justice will prevail.
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anajmi
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Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#223

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:54 am

Are you now claiming that hate is justified in circumstances where death and torture takes place? Does that mean you don't apply the words of Imam Ali AS in every sphere of life and its circumstances?
It looks the head maatam has affected your brain. Imagine going to a nikaah ceremony and performing salatul janazaa just like Ali did? You can do what Ali did on similar occasions where it might be appropriate and in similar circumstances.

Apparently, only complete idiots is what SMS wants as followers!

dawedaar
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#224

Unread post by dawedaar » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:12 pm

James - Maulatena Zainab (AS) spoke passionately and directly infront of Yazid to save her family (Not for any power or money greed). She did not go city to city preaching hate sessions against Yazid as being done presently where laanat baazi sessions are taken place within the sanctity of a holy place like Masjid. Present day hate sessions are filled with worldy power and greedy(for wealth) manifestations.

james wrote:
dawedaar wrote:Come on James, here Maulatena Zainab AS had her brother beheaded and her entire family tortured. What compares that tragedy to present day situation? You are avoiding that question altogether. Maultena Zainab (AS)'s outrage at Yazid is justified. Switch to present day, look who is tormenting whom! Your leader is undertaking marathon ziyafats, nikahs, qadams, baithaks etc and laughing all the way to the bank and at the same time terrorizing and coercing the entire community and holding them hostage to his fear!
Are you now claiming that hate is justified in circumstances where death and torture takes place? Does that mean you don't apply the words of Imam Ali AS in every sphere of life and its circumstances? My my,that's a major step down from the opinion you had earlier,

For example, recent letter by Shk Mohammed Raja from Leicester UK that's been circulated where he claims that he was mentally tortured and forced to pledge oath to SMS during his tour to Dubai in Dec 2014 but then went back to SKQ and gave his allegiance to him. I had emailed him anonymously and he swear on Allah and Quran shareef that whatever written in that letter is true! I hope you have read that letter!
Mohammed Raja is another one thrown under the bus by Khuzaima and his children.It's very clear that from time to time they need propaganda material to keep confusing the people from Haq.First there was a Taizoon Shakir and now there is a Mohammed Raja.

Note December 2014 and July 2015. Did you ask him anonymously why he waited 6-7 months to publish that letter? :wink:

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#225

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:27 pm

James wrote:[quote][Funny that you ask me not to run away when your frustration is evident on Usool-a-Kafi thread.You're the cherry picking sort which is a dishonest way as far as debates and discussion are concerned.

Anyone could post ahadith in support of their opinions against your nonsensical claims and your retort will be that you don't give much weight to ahadith thereby making the debate moot.

Your fantasy world revolves around the opinions of paid up stooges like Ivanov when you should be holding fast to the various books written under the guardianship of Imam Moiz AS. Stop your rhetoric. Everything that does not conform to your distorted beliefs, you call the scholars paid.

I only remember engaging with you regarding the claim of Amir who claimed to show the baby (minus the private parts) to confirm if the baby was a boy or a girl and he put the baby in a basked and sent it away with the maid. They put fruit in the basket and covered the baby up! I think this is where I left you. and you disappeared.

Now that you are back, please tell me if the Dai is the descendant of Huratul Malika who promised Dais from Zoeb. Was Zoeb her son? She promised Dais would be from Zoeb's progeny according to the paper you presented. Were Bharmal and Tarmal his descendants and is the present Dai his descendant. That is all I wanted to know and you disappeared. Also, I wanted to know if Huratul Malika had access to Imam AS, why did she not present him to at least a couple of people who could prove her statement.

But I never engaged with you on Usoole Kafi. Go read the thread again. Show me my frustrations. Unless you are Khadim, who claims to be a twelver. I provided him everything I had from one of his own people to prove that Imam Ismail AS was the true Imam and not Kazim.

Since you suggesting we read kalams of Imam Moiz, AS, why don't you tell me what he said. Please educate me. I have a book called "Orations of the Fatimid Caliphs" so don't try to lie. Also, when you come back I shall show you what one of the learned Fatimid Dai's said about Imams in occultation. So now the ball is in your court.


First learn the ethics of debating./quote]

Look who is talking. You are a confused man.

What are you smoking James. My frustration was not evident of Usool-a-kafi. I spoke up in favour of Imam Ismail AS and brother KA786/110 also spoke up with brother davedar and others. You were absent. I just now went through the thread and did not see your post. May be you can highlight it.

Bohra spring
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Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#226

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:18 am

JavedJuma

I have searched for Jafferi Shia basis on the record of events surrounding the Ahlul Bayt and the companions. The documentary evidence record of those events are two centuries after the actual event happening , eg what transpired during day of Ashura and Zainabs sermons were first documented over 200 years later.

Do Ismaili, not Bohra, have a perspective on when these incidents were recorded in literature other than word of mouth ? What can you share ?

think_for_yourself
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#227

Unread post by think_for_yourself » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:38 am

james wrote:
Mohammed Raja is another one thrown under the bus by Khuzaima and his children.It's very clear that from time to time they need propaganda material to keep confusing the people from Haq.First there was a Taizoon Shakir and now there is a Mohammed Raja.

Note December 2014 and July 2015. Did you ask him anonymously why he waited 6-7 months to publish that letter? :wink:
Despite your mad assertions to the contrary, the truth is that Mohammed Raja is squarely still on Haq in misaq of SKQ TUS. I am in touch with him and there is no doubt as to his affiliation. ( like someone here said before, once you've tasted pure water, you can't make yourself drink from a ditch!) It was the MS camp running the propaganda. Taking pictures of Mohammed Bhai and Muslim Tyebjee and spreading lies that they were happily with MS. The truth is that they are drinking pure water in the thanda saya of Qutbuddin Aqa.

Not sure what your obsession is with timeframes. The truth is still the truth seven months or seven years later.

So why don't you go huff and puff elsewhere... Your lies are not fooling anyone here. This ain't Mufaddal Bhaisab's majlis.

JavedhJuma
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#228

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:04 am

Bohra Spring: I have searched for Jafferi Shia basis on the record of events surrounding the Ahlul Bayt and the companions. The documentary evidence record of those events are two centuries after the actual event happening , eg what transpired during day of Ashura and Zainabs sermons were first documented over 200 years later.

Do Ismaili, not Bohra, have a perspective on when these incidents were recorded in literature other than word of mouth ? What can you share ?
To be honest with you brother I have no idea about these events. Even my parents have no idea. How can you trust the ahadith that were compiled after 2-3 hundred years later; how can you trust two centuries old narrations of events. These events are bound to be corrupted.

I have had the opportunity of visiting the shrines in Syria and related narrations. Every time you go there, a different narrator (guide) tells you a slightly different story.

If you remember Fatimid history, after the Musteali and Nizari split, the Ayubids took over and they threw Fatimid linterature into River Nile. They removed the crocodile covers to make shoes. So most of the Fatimid literature went into the river but Imam Musteali had transferred some to Yemen. All that literature came down to Tayyabi Dais. I believe a lot of it is with the present Dawoodi Bohra Dais.

Hamdani, Poonawalla, Zahid Ali are in possession of many manuscripts on Ismaili history, and they have shared them with IIS but haven't heard anything about Kerbala.

Nizaris, on the other hand, built Alamut Fort and they had a lot of scholars from twelvers who joined the faith and produced a lot of literature, but again their libraries were burned down to the ground by Mongols. So we don't have much and we rely on scholars who are doing research at IIS. Have yet to see any literature on the history of Kerbala. However, this should be a good subject to tackle and the Bohora scholars can contribute a lot.

One thing is for sure. During Fatimid Imams rule, Ismailis were not allowed to observe Mohorram.(now a lot of people on this site might not believe it, but I have heard a lecture by Walker in which he mentioned this.) They were not allowed to participate or watch the tabut procession on the 10th of Mohrram, only twelvers were allowed to do so. I have heard my bohora friends say that they are forbidden to watch the tabut. My mother tells me they were also forbidden. Here in the west this is absent but I did witness it in Syria. It was not a good site! You could smell blood all over.

I have read a small book on Kerbala lent to me by an Ithna friend, but I could not bear to finish it. It was very sad.

I too would like to know the events of Kerbala. Afterall, it is part of our heritage.

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#229

Unread post by Al-Noor » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:58 am



ahlul bayt and Imam Husain must have shunned these aagha khani worshipers long back from the day they started selling alcohol, betting on horses and doing zina with european models. they should come over it and carry on with their navratri dance in their jamaatkahanas.

Maqbool
Posts: 848
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#230

Unread post by Maqbool » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:39 am

james wrote:Note December 2014 and July 2015. Did you ask him anonymously why he waited 6-7 months to publish that letter? :
This james is here to make mischief. He is not serious. He is not reading the post properly and just reply for sack of reply.

In the letter Mr. Mohammedbhai Raja has clearly mentioned following:
Since that time and until a month ago, my wife and I were living under constant fear of Shehzada Mufaddal Saifuddin’s group, but now no more. Now I want to relate my story and the truth about the despicable actions of this group, and the threat and fear tactics that they used in order to force me and my wife into pledging loyalty to Shehzada Saifuddin :

Bohra spring
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#231

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:49 am

Al-Noor wrote:

ahlul bayt and Imam Husain must have shunned these aagha khani worshipers long back from the day they started selling alcohol, betting on horses and doing zina with european models. they should come over it and carry on with their navratri dance in their jamaatkahanas.
why do you have criticism when JJ is providing constructive content .I asked a question and he diplomatically answered.

JJ thank you , what you responded is major faith issue. So when shia priests over cook the events by actually dramatising events, are they really as it happened ?

Hence when SMB and sms bend down and act out the beheading , say 12 Cuts of the knife one wonders really did that event happen as a acted ? What is fact vs exaggeration, or worse deviation to create a situation

sad part is 1 million bohras are given a fatwa to attend the display of questionable events as they happened by hook or by crook

byculla
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:40 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#232

Unread post by byculla » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:00 am

James has a problem with 7 months.
He certainly did not have problems with timeframes when
(1) Cromwell video was shown 4 months after Syedna Burhanuddin's RA wafat (almost 3 yrs after the so called nass)
(2) 1388 purported nass was revealed after 2 years.

So now who is showing double standards and selective amnesia ?

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#233

Unread post by Al-Noor » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:17 am

there is a thin line between faith and a blind faith...we as a shia of Imam Ali and Imam Hussain have faith that events of karbala have happened and we have not just historic but also physical place and proofs for this event, and we dont need any more proof for it.

as long as blind faith is concern abde of muffy keeps blind faith and we can see they are blind even on the wrong doings of muffy and his party even when he goes against the teachings of Quran and ahlul byat....

those who criticize muffy and think now they can also question on authority of Imamain should think again, and if they are not satisfied by history or the personality of our Imammain they should find some thing else which will make sense to them.

kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#234

Unread post by kimanumanu » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:25 am

Al-Noor bhai you make a valid point. However, and I don't actually know how old you are but I will assume that you were born before SMS came to power, you have the benefit of having learned about our faith from multiple sources. This will not be the case for future generations or those whose formative years will be under SMS - their knowledge will be shaped by what he says. And if what he says is flawed then you cannot blame them if they also start questioning other things.

everest
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#235

Unread post by everest » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:00 pm

byculla wrote:James has a problem with 7 months.
He certainly did not have problems with timeframes when
(1) Cromwell video was shown 4 months after Syedna Burhanuddin's RA wafat (almost 3 yrs after the so called nass)
(2) 1388 purported nass was revealed after 2 years.

So now who is showing double standards and selective amnesia ?
Byculla, great job exposing the hypocrisy of James. When he is confronted with tough questions, he picks up his tail and runs away like a scared monkey, just like his boss. We all know the kothar mafia is capable of doing bodily harm and mental torture to anyone who speaks up against them. It is completely understandable if Shk Mohammed Raja needed some time to come up with this expose given the threat of harassment to his daughter and family. In fact I salute him for the courage he showed by even coming out in the first place. I hope he inspires more people to speak up against the injustice and tyranny of the Kothari goons

Bohra spring
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Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#236

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:07 pm

happened and we have not just historic but also physical place and proofs for this event
AN in what form is this proof ? I born in the 70s saw these as shinny marble buildings and some old sage read from a book , no author , no challenge from public domain , and said so and so happened 1400 years ago or as in India ziyarat, don't ask too many questions

Alternatively come to 11 years of brainwashing sabaqs and end of 11th year you will accept it.

Otherwise blind faith while you threaten if you don't submit to that ideology get out go elsewhere ?

While if one goes to Cairo Museum one is shown specimen , method of validation and researchers involved . A case is put up to justify findings , this reinforces knowledge gained when in Africa I as a child studied history of Egypt "blindly "

So do I agree if Husain existed yes because various books and records say yes he did. Was he killed in battle , probably , but death is not the point or his contribution, we should acknowledge his life achievements rather , thousands over time gave lives for their faith , there is indirect evidence that there was tension , but was he killed in the fashion that 20% of the Muslims say, probably ! Can someone say precisely ? I am objective

Why I ask because the precision of events has become a source of disunity and bloodshed, more recently where SMS has threatened and likely consequences if people don't attend from day 2 , when we are not certain if Ashura events commenced on that day leave alone what happened when and how ?

JavedhJuma
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Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#237

Unread post by JavedhJuma » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:33 am

Bohra spring wrote:JJ thank you , what you responded is major faith issue. So when shia priests over cook the events by actually dramatising events, are they really as it happened ?

I prefer not to respond because every lecture I have tried to hear there is some difference. Karen Armstrong in her book : Islam: A short History of Islam writes:

Betweeen 1500-1700: Three major Islamic Empires were created in the late 15th and early 17th centureis: Safavid in Iran, Moghul in India and the Ottoman in Anatolia, Syria, North Africa and Arabia....The 3 major empires all seemed to turn their backs on the egalitarian traditions of Islam and set up absolute monarchies...But these empires were very different from the old Abbasid state in one important respect. The Abbasid caliphs and their court had never been truly Islamic institutions; they had not been subject to the laws of the Shariah and had evolved their own wordly ethos..In Safavid Iran, Shiism became the state religion, Falsafah and Sufism were dominant influences on Moghul policy, Ottoman Empire was run entirely on Shariah lines...........Mohammed Baqir Majlisi (d.1700) became one of the most influential ulama of all time, but he displayed a new Shii bigotry. He tried to suppress the teaching of Falsafah and mysticism (irfan) in Isfahan, and mercilessly persecuted the remaining Sufis. Henceforth, he was ablet to insist, the ulama should concentrate on fiqh. Majlisi introduced into Iranian Shiism a distrust of mysticism and philosophy that is still prevalent today.....Majlisi promoted the mourning rituals in honour of Hussain, the martyr of Kerbala, to teach the populace the values and piety of the Shiah. These were elaborate processions, and highly emotional dirges were sung, while the people wailed and cried aloud. These rites became a major Iranian institution. During the 18th century the taziyeh, a passion play depicting the Kerbala tragedy, was developed in which the people were not passive spectators, buit provided the emotional response, weeping and beating their breasts, and joining their own sorrows to the suffering of Imam Husain. The ritual provided an important safety valve. As they moaned, slapped their foreheds and wept uncontrollably, the audience aroused in themselves that yearning for justice which is at the heart of Shii piety asking themselves why the good always seemed to suffer and evil nearly always prevailed.....But Majlisi and the shahs were careful to suppress the revolutionary potential of these rites. Instead of pretesting against tyranny at home , the people were taught to inveith against Sunni Islam.....

So you see, the self-immolation and taziyeh came about only 300 years ago. It was not there since the event of Kerbala. That is my take. I could be wrong.


Hence when SMB and sms bend down and act out the beheading , say 12 Cuts of the knife one wonders really did that event happen as a acted ? What is fact vs exaggeration, or worse deviation to create a situation

sad part is 1 million bohras are given a fatwa to attend the display of questionable events as they happened by hook or by crook
[/quote]

I am sorry I do not know anything about this. What I have seen from this forum. and may God forgive me, I have not seen present Dai give any sermons in his own name. He is always referring to the previous 2 dai's sermons. And he cries a lot. Nothing of his own. I would like to hear from him something about the Tayebi Ismaili faith. I think Bohoras on this forum have done a great job explaining their faith. Also, I have learned a lot from KQ's children about the Bohora faith. The first 13 lectures, by his son were very strong and powerful. I had sent the link to a few of Ismaili friends who were very impressed. KQs daughters Tahera and Safiyah are heavily relied upon by Paul E. Walker, whom they have helped with the translation and verification of the manuscripts.

Bohra spring
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Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#238

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:43 am

JJ my apologies on behalf of my fellow tribesmen for insulting your faith when I invited you to comment on Karbala.

Bohras we our own have issues to our eyeballs leave JJ alone

james
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Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#239

Unread post by james » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:20 am

dawedaar wrote:James - Maulatena Zainab (AS) spoke passionately and directly infront of Yazid to save her family (Not for any power or money greed). She did not go city to city preaching hate sessions against Yazid as being done presently where laanat baazi sessions are taken place within the sanctity of a holy place like Masjid. Present day hate sessions are filled with worldy power and greedy(for wealth) manifestations.
When in a hole,stop digging.

According to you hating someone who has wronged you is a direct contradiction to the kalam of Imam Ali AS.When shown the example of Moulatena Zainab AS,you offered the opinion that her hate was justified bringing your subjectiveness into the discussion.Then you proceed on how you feel the hate should take place and whatnot.What is wrong with you?

anajmi
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Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#240

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:02 pm

Couple of things. First, zainab's "hatred" could very likely be a piece of bohra fiction like the talking ghoda of hussain.

Second, Ali and Zainab were both humans, so it is very much possible that Zainab chose not to or completely forgot about Ali's recommendation.

Only abde idiots force human emotions on others or allow them to be forced on themselves by other abde idiots.