Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
AliZahra
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:11 pm

Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#1

Unread post by AliZahra » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:56 am

Assalam Alaykum
My name is AnwarAli (Anwar for ease of reference) and during Ramadhan last year, I resigned my membership from the Jamat/Dawa't that I belonged to (a well wisher published the resignation letter on this Forum at that time) and have since then stopped believing in the Dai/Dawa't as my religious/spiritual leader/savior

The PDB Movement was formed (as stated in the preamble) to "challenge the authoritarian and un-Islamic system the current priesthood has put in place to control and exploit Bohras" - The great majority of Reformists and Progressives are members of Muffadal Saheb's Dawa't and who continuously and relentlessly condemn, criticize and abuse Mufaddal Saheb and his Dawa't - I wonder if anyone sees the contradiction here, though I have read some posts here and heard others admitting, "yes, we are hypocrites and cowards and do submit to the authoritarian and un-Islamic system, which we disapprove of" - Surely, this does not sound or look like a group of serious objectors or reformists or progressives but opportunists without conviction to their cause, who can so easily submit to un-islamic practices, which they claim to abhor and despise and are happy to be controlled and exploited by such a system - This Movement has been in existence for some 45 years and I do not know how long this website has been in existence but I see that it has about 3500 "members" and perhaps about 25 regular commentators, out of an approximate Bohra population of 1.5 million, dismal numbers by any standards and a clear indication that the Movements policy of reforms from withing has failed miserably - I am interested to know the methods adopted by the Reform Movement to obtain/demand reforms from the Dai/Dawa't, over the years and what reforms have been achieved in the last 45 years

Given the length of time and other statistics, it is abundantly clear that the Movement has failed to achieve its stated objectives because the Dai/Dawa't have not yielded to any demands for reforms, primarily because of hypocrisy, cowardice and opportunism among the so called Reformists and Progressives - Yet, the onslaught on the Dai/Dawa't continues relentlessly, in the hope of what?, that what was not achieved in the last 45 years can be achieved anytime soon? - It will do the Movement great service to remind itself and its followers of the history of how the Dai/Dawa't came to entrench themselves with such powers/authority, since the British Raj and since India's independence and right up-to this day - So, the Movement must understand that it cannot and will not be able to bring about any reforms from within but maybe from without, if large numbers of Bohras have the enlightenment, common sense, fortitude, courage and conviction to breakaway from the authoritarian and un-Islamic system and practice their faith and Bohra culture without a Dai/Dawa't i.e. Bohraism without a Dai/Dawa't - Sounds radical and liberating? - Yes, it is radical and liberating because of the mess we have been in for so long - Perhaps we fail to understand a simple economic principle that it is the "bottom line" (profit) that really matters to any enterprise and Dawa't is also an enterprise that heavily relies on the ignorance and blind faith of its followers for its well-being and survival - The Movement for Reforms from within should have been abandoned a long time ago and something different/radical needed to be offered to serious reformists/progressives - It was an exercise in futility and if reformists/progressives are really serious about their demands/desires, then a different strategy needs to be adopted to achieve the stated objectives - Sacrifice and Courage are the cornerstones of any serious Struggle/Movement and when a Movement is supported, sincerely and actively (boycotts of Jamat functions, not paying any dues to the Jamats and resigning from the Jamats) by many, it becomes successful, as was the case in Udaipur - Without sacrifice and courage you will NEVER achieve any of the stated objectives - Yes, it will be painful but what is the alternative, more of the same forever - Unless you stop being hypocrites and opportunists and have the courage to make the required sacrifices, then you should STOP being OBSESSED with the Dai/Dawa't and STOP the relentless onslaught on the Dai/Dawa't, as it is none of your business to abuse, condemn and criticize the Dai/Dawa't, because you are part of the very system you abhor - To say the least, it is HYPOCRITICAL - The Dai/Dawa't are free to do what they like, as they are empowered by the masses, however ignorant they might be - And honestly, what purpose/objective does all this abuse, condemnation and criticism serve or has served, when the Dai/Dawa't only thinks of you as some stray dog barking and gutless cowards and hypocrites hiding behind aliases/pseudo names - The Movement needs visionary leaders who can enlighten and empower Bohras - I am an optimist and believe that it is still not too late to change course and seriously encourage, enlighten and empower progressive Bohras to become AZAD Bohras, free from the shackles of authoritarianism, un-Islamic practices and corruption and practice your faith/beliefs/culture, in the true spirit of "La Ilaha Illalla, Muhammadan Rasulullah wa Aliyun Waliullah" and be a true adherent of Bohra beliefs and culture and accept the fact, truth and reality that you can be a great Bohra and a great human being, with great qualities of transparency and accountability and without the help of or need for a Dai/Dawa't - But to be an AZAD Bohra, one needs to have a Free Spirit, be transparent and accountable and a strong, unflinching and sincere belief in the Oneness of Allah Subhanahu and that even within Islam, there are many paths to achieve the Blessings of Allah Subhanahu and experience Spirituality through many different mediums - In the final analysis everything boils down to YOU the individual and your desire and willingness to seek salvation through enlightenment, awareness and liberation of your soul - You cannot have it both ways - Apart from the achievements of the folks in Udaipur, in the early 70's and the recent Ziyarat tour of several cities by some activists, there has not been any reforms achieved or progress made by the Movement - Does the leadership of this Movement acknowledge that it has not succeeded in achieving the objectives it set out to achieve? - Or does it believe that the same approach (reforms from within) will yield different results in the foreseeable future? - One thing is for certain, if you are a realist, that continuing to "bang" your head against the wall will only result in your "bleeding to death" and most reformists/progressives are not wiling to make sacrifices for a cause to which they only pay lip service

Then, there seems to be a belief among some or all the so called reformists, that they are not against the Dai/Dawa't but against his authoritarian, corrupt, exploitative and un-Islamic system - Do these reformists see the huge contradiction between their belief and their inability to change/reform anything from within, during the last 45 years? - And what form of national/international action they have taken, in the last 45 years or are taking now, to change/reform the system or challenge it? - Apart from a few highly dedicated, sincere and courageous activists like Zehraben Cyclewalla and others in Surat and Udaipur, the rest of the so called reformists are just opportunists satisfied with some personal gains from the corrupt system and no longer dedicated to the cause of reform - A Movement that cannot deliver on its objectives, becomes irrelevant and misguided - Unless reformists/progressives accept the reality that reforms/progress from within is NEVER going to happen, then they can be compared with the proverbial ostrich with its head dug in the sand, who despite not seeing light at the end of the tunnel, continue to dig deeper into oblivion - There is a saying that "if you have dug yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging" - Notwithstanding, the futility of the whole reform exercise, I see people digging even deeper, from whence there is no return and only leads to oblivion

I am wondering if reformists, who claim that they are not against the Dai/Dawa't, find it acceptable and Islamic to do Sajda (prostrate) to the Dai? - If they don't, then it negates the whole foundation of the Movement's challenge about the un-Islamic practices of the Dai/Dawa't - On the other hand if they find the practice acceptable, then it exposes their hypocrisy about challenging the Dai's authority and pits them against the mainstream Progressives, who find the practice of Sajda un-Islamic, abhorrent and unacceptable - I have personally never heard a Dai ask his followers to do Sajda to him but have always heard his functionaries say that "sajda tuje wajib hein", which has created a backlash against Bohras in many Muslim countries

So, in the New Year 2015, this is a challenge to most of you, the so called reformists and progressives, who in essence are hypocrites, gutless cowards and sellouts that instead of your relentless obsession with the Dai/Dawa't and your continuous abuse, condemnation and criticism of the Dai/Dawat, you will be better served, as a progressive, if you became an AZAD Bohra and encourage every other progressive to do so - If people are serious about change, then they will individually/personally have to take action to bring about the change they desire in their belief system and the way they practice their faith, in an Islamic way, without the shackles of authoritarianism, un-Islamic practices and corruption - Continuously being obsessed with the Dai/Dawat and abusing, condemning and criticizing the Dai/Dawat is not the way of a true Mumin/Progressive - We must be way above such fray and show respect for each other as civilized human beings and not trash/abuse each other as many do on this Forum, thus degrading its status to some cheap propaganda site - I sincerely believe that a lot of "water has passed under the bridge" and much valuable time and energies lost in a futile exercise, hence an urgent need to change course and build something than will outlast this generation and be of great benefit, religiously, spiritually and culturally, to the next generation - They will be eternally indebted and grateful to us for this service

Professors Poonawalla and Hamdani in their "Manifesto On Behalf of The Bohra Community" (published in this Forum on 31/January/2014, stated that "ignorance combined with blind faith", among Bohras, allowed the Dai/Dawa't to entrench themselves with immense powers and authority, that was used/practiced to the detriment of the Community - I believe the use of the word "ignorance" is in reference to religious ignorance and how critical it is to be religiously enlightened to understand one's faith and beliefs and become empowered to challenge the System, on moral and religious grounds - They also said the "central message of Quran is socio-economic justice" - What we have witnessed in the last 100 years is usurpation of absolute powers and authority and declaration of infallibility, which allows the Dai/Dawa't to be the "Malik of every Bohras jaan and maal" - Hence, began the total takeover of all Jamaat properties and assets, all over the world and the ownership transferred to the Dai as the Sole Trustee by way of Wakf Trusts - In the entire Bohra history spanning hundreds of years, there has not been such confiscation of Community properties/assets, whose incomes, in the past, used to help the needy and build schools, clinics and other facilities for the Community (Quran's central message of socio-economic justice) - Higher education was condemned to the dustbins of history and the incomes no longer helped the needy but became the sole income of the Dai/Dawa't, to be used without any accountability or transparency - Democracy was replaced by autocracy and the challenge to this system of governance was soon silenced with the acquiescence of the British Raj and subsequently by the Independent Indian government and most importantly by the "ignorance and blind faith of the masses" - So, here we are in the 21st Century, still believing that we can reform this autocratic, authoritarian and corrupt system, so well entrenched that they must be laughing at reformists and progressives about the stupidity and futility of their demands for reforms/progress - Some people may be forgiven to think/believe that the Dawa't of Khuzemabhai Qutbuddin will be different, as it appears to be liberal, but that is where the comparison ends and when they have consolidated their position, it will be "business as usual and more of the same" - Can Khuzemabhai Qutbuddin publicly declare that he is Dai Nazim and not Dai Mutlaq and that he would work with a Community Constitution and that he would take a public oath of office and that he would publicly declare that no Sajda is due to him and that he would abolish the Sultan/Prince/Princess system and govern democratically with ELECTED leaders? - Can he do all this? - If he can, then he would find more support in the Community, because there are many waiting in the wings to see which way the pendulum will swing, as they seem to be totally frustrated, exploited and disillusioned with the mainstream Dawa't

Personally, I am done with the Dai/Dawat system and want more space and freedom to practice my faith, beliefs, spirituality and culture, hence I call myself an AZAD Bohra and for nearly a year now, I have been thoroughly enjoying the space and freedom, having liberated myself and my soul from the shackles of autocracy, authoritarianism, exploitation and corruption - I am indeed eternally grateful to Allah Subhanahu for his divine guidance and wisdom and also grateful to my family for their unflinching support - We had one of the best Ramadhan and Ashara, in a long time, with fellow Shias and Sunnis, who welcomed us with tremendous goodwill, friendship, and hospitality and felt more enlightened and empowered - To this day they have not asked us for any financial contribution - They have an annual family membership fee of $180.00 and everything else works through donations, you give if you can and what you can and there is transparency and accountability and democracy in action

I am writing all this not to discredit or belittle anyone but to share the reality of life and in all sincerity and in the strong belief that if we as Bohras are unhappy, frustrated, shackled, controlled and exploited by the present autocratic and un-islamic system, then we have only ourselves to blame for being in this state of affairs and change will only happen if you as an individual take some decisive action to alter the course of history - Mahatma Gandhi said "You Must Be The Change You Wish To See In The World" - Unfortunately, most of the so called progressive Bohras pay only lip service to the progressive cause and find solace and pervert pleasure in the onslaught against the Dai/Dawa't, rather than liberate themselves/their souls from this autocratic, exploitative and corrupt system and refrain from sins of omission and commission - Change will NEVER happen if you continue to support this system in one way or another - It is your moral and financial support that allows this system to systematically control and exploit Bohras - This is the bitter truth whether one likes it or not and as long as you continue to support this system willingly or unwillingly, you participate in the sins/wrongs committed by the system

On the issue of transparency and accountability, how much is the revenue generated by this website/movement from advertising and also the revenue from other sources, donations etc?

If anyone wants to communicate with me about AZAD Bohras, that is Bohraism without a Dai/Dawa't, please feel free to write to me at "anwarbodal@msn.com" - Please be aware that there is no money/resources here, just a willingness to share ideas and learn from one another and change the way we look at our circumstances/situation and maybe create something that will have substance, value and meaning for us and future generations - Perhaps we can organize an annual social get-together of like-minded people to evaluate how far we have come in this noble endeavor - I live in Florida, USA and would welcome a discussion with anyone who would like to become an AZAD Bohra

Wassalam - Allah Hafiz - Fi Amanillah
Anwar
"Worrying Does Not Take Away Tomorrow's Troubles, It Takes Away Today's Peace"

Ozdundee
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#2

Unread post by Ozdundee » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:23 am

Anwar you have written an interesting article and speak for many others like myself.

i draw your attention to the following definitions

Reformism is the assumption that gradual changes through and within existing institutions can ultimately change a society's fundamental economic system and political structures. This hypothesis of social change grew out of opposition to revolutionary socialism, which contends that revolution is necessary for fundamental structural changes to occur.

Reformism is to be distinguished from pragmatic reforms - reformism is the assumption that an accumulation of reforms can lead to the emergence of an entirely different economic system and form of society than present-day system.

There are two types of reformism: the first has no intention of bringing about socialism or fundamental economic change to society; the second type is based on the assumption that while reforms are not socialist in themselves, they can help rally supporters to the cause of revolution by popularizing the cause to the working class.

The debate on the ability for social democratic reformism to lead to a socialist transformation of society is over a century old.

Reformism is criticized for being paradoxical: it seeks to overcome the existing system of , but at the same time it tries to improve the conditions of current thereby making it appear more tolerable to society.

next what your are proposing is cessation or separation or partitioning where hope of reform is lost and best outcome is division . I don't know whether we have reached that stage . If so how many wish for separation vs reform , what if we try both.

I foresee we have multiple groups, reformists , separatists and orthodox conservatives. within conservatives they have the Qutbi and Mufadali.

you also raise a valid point that reformists within themselves are in disagreement about what reform means and what is the approach.

Have you checked if the majority of the population really want reforms , separation or feel they need drastic change. is it possible reformists are a minority and if we expose ourselves we will be forced into exile and separate with no significant following as SKQ is experiencing. I know people may say give time.

an advise to AZAD bohra, will you establish a society that fills the void, what void is that , majority orthodox bohras do not consider themselves as victims , they may consider the obligations challenging but not intolerable. there is no evidence of mass revolt , protests, disobedience. I am not saying there is no oppression but the establishment gradual trims off the dissatisfied, . who thereafter return to servitude or leave . Some of still hang on and claim being liberal, objectionist but do nothing . that is not hypocrisy just being passive resistive.

the few who are energetic like yourself and many of us run out of puff or have very few followers . that is not being defeatist but realist. Having people like comments and blogs is not real followers who will accompany one when in battle.

some of us can strive to be free while within that is not hypocrisy. many live within political dictatorships around the world there is nothing wrong or shameful or sinful.


if you look at successful leaders they were reformists, like our prophets SAWS, Gandhi, Mandela, freedom fighters ,, etc. they remained within their society and reformed. so the philosophy of reform is not wrong, it is the we've not found competent reformists or reform leadership that can be champions.

I wish you well in your new venture if you belive in it .

din786
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:02 am

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#3

Unread post by din786 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:20 am

salaam anwar,
this is my first time post on this website.i have been trolling here for many years.well said.i support you in this matter 100%.here we are
small progressive community.Religiouse and spiritualy we do our best in Islamic way.But when it comes to "progressive dawoodi bohra" its zero.
In the past few years we had international meetings not one but 4 and out of this we have not put a dent in kothar system.As you said it is all lip sevice no action.Wth your permission iwould like to use these points in our community which I think would ruffle some feathers.you have hit the
nail right on the head.Hat off to you.

topiwala
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#4

Unread post by topiwala » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:46 am

what a fake ! but I am glad that you accepted that the reformists like MUnafeqeen are and will always be unsucessful . DO they think that bohras are so gullible to become wahhabi type.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#5

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:39 am

topiwala wrote:what a fake ! but I am glad that you accepted that the reformists like MUnafeqeen are and will always be unsucessful . DO they think that bohras are so gullible to become wahhabi type.
Yes Bohras are very GULLIBLE and that is why they are known as ABDES also known as SLAVES :mrgreen:

mnoorani
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:05 am

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#6

Unread post by mnoorani » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:13 pm

Abde ,Mamluk, Dai no ghulam.
aa shabdo ma bohra bhai tamaam.
Na Allah, na Quran na Rasool ni zikr
Noorani ne che ehni qaum ni fikr.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#7

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:19 pm

Welcome mnoorani
We sure miss your Shayyari for a long time

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#8

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:26 pm

My friend Anwar. First, thanks for spilling out your thoughts and ideas in such gory details. It is clear you are passionate and have many good ideas. However, first, I should point out several fundamental flaws in your basic assumptions.

First: as far as I know, the progressives have not made any official determination on who they are going to follow. They have taken a "wait and watch" approach. I don't think this is a wise approach, but that is what it appears from the postings by some Udaipur reformists.

Second, the question as to da'i is nazim or da'i al-mutlaq. This issue has been settled before. The question of nass on the 47th da'i is not a concern of bulk of the progressives. There is a small fanatical group, now led by students on Ahmed Ali Raj, who consider that there are no more duat al-mutlaqeen. But these people are a bit crazy and unstable, and rather fanatical. Just read the smug arrogance with which the gender shifting Doctor/Badri Janab/Munira_RV writes. These guys are even crazier than Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin. They would bring about a Taliban like theocracy among the Bohras.

Third, obviously, you can form any group you want. However, there is zero chance that a movement which outright rejects the da'i, and which is expected to continue retaining the cultural and religious heritage of the Bohras, will succeed. Eventually, people will either become Sunni or some form of Shia. That is like committing cultural suicide. Large fraction of Sunnis are infiltrated by the Salafi ideology, which is extremist and dangerous. Don't think that IS and Saudi monarchy exist in vacuum. They are based on flawed understanding of Islam. It starts off with the fine slogan "just Quran and sunnah". However, the sunnah is highly corrupt, and fabricated to suit the agenda of the early usurpers of the prophet's mantle. It is no longer useful for a modern life, and, in fact, is highly counter productive. Just see how the Taliban or the Saudi state operates.

Fourth, you talk about Poonawalla and Hamdani's article. Honestly, even though I respect them as scholars, their analysis is deeply flawed. There is a reason why that is the case: they are totally out of touch with the situation with everyday Bohras. These two fine gentlemen are not believers, and probably are closeted atheists or agnostics (I don't mean to use these labels in a negative sense). They study old texts, but have not lived the religion or experienced it for themselves. There is a very big difference in reading say a book on philosophy and experiencing it personally. I would take their ideas as coming from on-high, without much practical value.

Now, let me point out a simple way to bring about changes. Join the Fatemi Dawaat. That is it. In a single year, S. Qutbuddin has done what could not be achieved in 50 years of the reform movement. I.e, the establishment of an international movement, which is set to bring back liberalism, compassion, modern education and values, brotherhood and social-economic equality among the Bohras.

S. Qutbuddin has led by example: he has exercised super-human restraint and courage, has shown by his and his children's example that he values education, even for women, values enterprise and modern forms of finance, values scholars and scientists, and is open to progress. Unlike the fanatic Muffadul, he encourages women to seek education and achieve success in all fields. Unlike the Salafis, who would rather shoot women than have them drive or vote or be independent, he encourages independence and excellence. His model is the Ikhwan as-Safa, a syncretic and liberal form of Islam, much in need today.

Now, in any large organization, even one built on egalitarian principles, there will be some people who want to control the community, or are corrupt. This is human nature. Ideal systems don't exist. They did not exist during the time of the prophet, nor the Imams and will not exit in this physical world. Hence, we should accept the reality that there will be problems. However, if the fundamentals are strong, then we can hope that these problems can be fixed within the system with some work.

The current problem with the Bohras is that the fundamentals are flawed. They rely on coercion, and a fanatic obsession with the da'i. As has been exposed by Taizoon Shakir and others, this is a conspiracy by the brothers and children of SMB (RA), who was probably manipulated and forced him to agree with them. The proof for this is obvious: in no speech of his did he condemn, yell or scold his followers. He was compassionate, loving and fatherly. Contrast this with what was happening on the ground: colored cards for Bohras, spying on each other, humiliation for minor offenses, extreme ideological conformity, deification of the da'i. Now, Mr. Muffadul yells, rants and raves. What a contrast with SMB (RA)!. Yes, as I explained before, SMB (RA) was not a strong leader, and failed to keep these nefarious elements in check. However, a natural outcome of this is the schism we see today. I believe this is nature's way of flushing out unwanted elements.

In any case, you have raised interesting points, and given people something to think about. I just hope people don't derail the thread, and contribute something valuable and thoughtful.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#9

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:20 pm

AliZahra wrote:Given the length of time and other statistics, it is abundantly clear that the Movement has failed to achieve its stated objectives because the Dai/Dawa't have not yielded to any demands for reforms, primarily because of hypocrisy, cowardice and opportunism among the so called Reformists and Progressives -
What hypocrisy, cowardice and opportunism are you talking about. Can you give any concrete examples to support your claim? Or are you in your enthusiasm to set up a separate cultural club raising straw men so you can have the pleasure of demolishing them?

Please don't trample on the Movement to justify your dream of Utopia "outside" the community. You are welcome to abandon Bohra faith and do whatever the hell catches your fancy but don't drag the Movement through the mud. You know why the movement hasn't been able to do much for 45 years? Because of people like you who have been sleeping all these years. The Movement was a start, a trigger, an inspiration to awaken Bohras all over. We in Udaipur and other place around the world have setup democratic jamaat system with accountability and transparency - every ideal that we demand of the clergy and the kothar. It would have been possible to achieve this on a much wider scale if only people like you had woken up and supported us, helped us to help yourself. The failure is not of the Movement but of slumbering abdes like you have suddenly woken up one fine day, and in your bleary-eyed, unwashed stupor spitting on the very Movement which you failed to support in the first place. Every person who says that the Movement has failed has the moral obligation to accept that the Movement has failed because they themselves failed to support it.

There can be no movement without people. Abdes like you were too ignorant and too gutless to do anything. And now you have the nerve to calls us names. The Movement would have had some bargaining power if only two or three other jamats had joined us. Even so, we did much more while you were sleep-walking and lapping up dai and dawat which you now in your half-awake state so condemn. The court cases, the high-profile public conferences, bringing the Bohra issue in the media and to national attention were done by the Movement. In the 70s and 80s the Movement was its height, everybody was talking about it. Where you then? Twiddling your toes? We have done everything possible with our limited resources and numbers that could be done - but I guess it was not enough to wake up slumbering abdes like you.
So, in the New Year 2015, this is a challenge to most of you, the so called reformists and progressives, who in essence are hypocrites, gutless cowards and sellouts ...
Why so much hatred and animus towards progressives? Is this venom the result of your own impotence that you endured for 45 years. Surely you are barking up the wrong tree.

As for this website it has been around for 15 years, when did you discover it? And what did you on discovering it? Did you decide to support its cause, the Movement? No wait, maybe it was too late for you by then. You were asleep for so long that you ended up having wet dreams of forming your own cultural club.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#10

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:28 pm

Biradar wrote: ...S. Qutbuddin has done what could not be achieved in 50 years of the reform movement. I.e, the establishment of an international movement, which is set to bring back liberalism, compassion, modern education and values, brotherhood and social-economic equality among the Bohras.
As I said above, the failure of the movement is the failure of Bohras. The "success" of Qutbuddin is because he is from the "royal family", he is not offering even half of what the movement was promising. Yet Bohras never bothered to join the movement. This is very telling. It shows that Bohras refuse take responsibility of bettering their own situation. They are forever dependent on messiah. Really sad.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#11

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:04 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Biradar wrote: ...S. Qutbuddin has done what could not be achieved in 50 years of the reform movement. I.e, the establishment of an international movement, which is set to bring back liberalism, compassion, modern education and values, brotherhood and social-economic equality among the Bohras.
As I said above, the failure of the movement is the failure of Bohras. The "success" of Qutbuddin is because he is from the "royal family", he is not offering even half of what the movement was promising. Yet Bohras never bothered to join the movement. This is very telling. It shows that Bohras refuse take responsibility of bettering their own situation. They are forever dependent on messiah. Really sad.
Can you please elaborate on what progressives offered, and in what sense was it twice as much as the Fatemi Dawat is offering?

Please note: I am not defending Fatemi Dawat or saying that it is perfect. All I am saying is that this movement has provided us with an opportunity to move away from the poisonous ideology of Mr. Muffadul. At least it seems that the FD people are liberal, and open minded. They are responsive to suggestions (I have made several) and answer all queries politely. It is possible to get involved, and contribute in small or big ways. It may even be possible to convince them to make a rather liberal constitution, which would allow local jamaats autonomy in its finances and property management, leave Bohras alone in secular matters, encourage education and reduce the hold of mullahs. Isn't this what progressives have wanted for a long time? Why not try? Perhaps nothing will come of it, but if one does not try, 100% nothing will happen.

At present, it is impossible to make any dent in the machinery of Mr. Muffadul. He has whipped the bohras into a frenzy and there is no way that Kothar can be challenged. It is not even a David and Goliath fight. I mean, this guy has bought prime-ministers, judges and other heads of states. Do you think a few motley people, unable to even decide if they even believe in the very post of da'i al-mutlaq, pose any threat to him?

In fact, a big problem I see is that as all heresies, the progressives do not have any clear idea of what they want. Now, I more than support the basic idea of non-interference in local jamaat matters, financial transparencies, lack of coercion in fund collecting, freedom of conscience, etc. However, there is a contingent among the progressive which challenges the idea of nass on 47th da'i, and other fundamental aspects of the faith. In this scenarios, you have zero chance of attracting any new people to the cause of reform. If the most important thing is secular reform in the community, reducing the power of amils, then these fringe religious nut-cases are a big liability. Some compromise is needed to achieve the aim of secularization.

To me, it seems that by "wait and watch" the progressives are essentially waiting themselves to irrelevance. I mean, do you really think that someone will be attracted to a group which does not even pick who they think is the da'i!? Now, I am more than happy if the progressives decide they are done with the da'i and with other essential features of Islam and imaan, and want to form an independent group of their own. But, please, tell me how is this stale mate helping anyone?

Biradar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#12

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:13 pm

Biradar wrote:
In fact, a big problem I see is that as all heresies, ...
Before Humsafar jumps on me, I should clarify that I use the word "heresy" in the classic sense that it is "a belief contrary to orthodox religious doctrine". No negative implications are meant.

Ozdundee
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#13

Unread post by Ozdundee » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:39 pm

Biradar was this statement accidental or did you just throw a grenade into the discussion
Now, I am more than happy if the progressives decide they are done with the da'i and with other essential features of Islam and imaan, and want to form an independent group of their own.
Were you addressing progressive, reformists or anyone who does not conform to your basic interpretation of principles ?
Last edited by Ozdundee on Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SBM
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#14

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:41 pm

Br Biradar
I understand that you are championing the SKQ fellowship. Yes he may be better then SMS and his children are highly educateod and may be living a simpler life but here is my question to you.
Taizoon Shakir took upon himself to stand up against SMS and he started the blog about Inside Saify Mahal and exposed many ills of Royal Family of which SKQ is part and parcel of.
Where was SKQ for past 50 years when he saw the ills in the community and where was he and his sons when Taizoon Shakir was being harassed by the SMS Goons in Mumbai incident Is it possible that even SKQ may now being scared of Taizoon Shakir that he might spill the beans on him,
I donot know but if I take your advice to following SKQ and it turns out that he is no better than SMS once he gets the power then he might act like him but less evil. He does not have any great track record for me to blindly follow him. If it turns out then Aasmaan sey Giraa Aur Khajoor pey Aatka
SKQ did not show up guts to stand up when he had the power atleast the Udaipuri Progressives had the guts to fight the SMB Goons and stand up to his atrocities done on Progressive Bohras
Disclaimer: I am neither Progressive nor reformists nor a follower of SMS or SKQ nor a Wahabi

SBM
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#15

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:45 pm

Also please enlighten me about the real battle in the Court Is it about Haq or is about the Wealth?

AliZahra
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#16

Unread post by AliZahra » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:02 pm

Assalam Alaykum

Shukria Brothers "fiate2000; Fateh; Ozdundee; din786; mnoorani; SBM and Biradar", for your candid and positive comments and SBM thanks for your support (topiwalla comments) and for being a good "neighbor"

One of the thoughts/ideas of my Post is to generate a healthy and honest debate because by and large most of us are agreed that there is a PROBLEM

The subject of my Post is "Obsession With Dai & Dawa't" and I am again asking everyone whether there is any value/justification with this obsession and as I asked in my Post what purpose such vitriol serves, especially when there is no response from the other side - It seems people treat the Dai/Dawa't as a political entity and expect a response but they are not and too smart not to be sucked into such a debate

Being an AZAD Bohra and talking about it does not mean I am necessarily advocating a new sect or a split or separation but will re-emphasize that continued support of the un-Islamic, autocratic and corrupt system has not and will not bring about any reforms/changes - I am talking about an individual/personal position when a person comes to a conclusion that he/she has to get out of a system that operates against his/her values, principles and beliefs - If someone else is attracted to my philosophy and would like to discuss more about it, that would be good and like all philosophies, you are never alone and will find Comrades to associate with - By the way, I am a Socialist and was involved in serious struggles/movements in Africa against dictators and for multiparty democracy, human/civil rights and Constitutional reforms

There is something I must state categorically so that there is no ambiguity about my position/philosophy - I am a Bohra and love the Bohra culture - I am a Shia and love the Shia culture - I will die a Bohra and a Shia - So, if there is anyone out there that thinks I am up for "sale" or looking for salvation/enlightenment from any other belief/source, you are badly/terribly mistaken, so do not try to "sell" anything to me and to boot, I am 70 years YOUNG and "been there, seen that, done that":)

I quoted Professors Poonawalla and Hamdani for a very specific reason in what they said about "Bohra ignorance and blind faith and socio-economic justice", matters that are widely acknowledged by most of us - But, in view of some of the comments by Brother Biradar, I am wondering who appointed/authorized the two scholars to speak on behalf of ALL Bohras when they wrote the "Manifesto On Behalf Of The Bohra Community"?

Wassalam - Allah Hafiz - Fi Amanillah
Peace
Anwar
"Love The People Who Treat You Right & Have Compassion For The Ones Who Don't" - Dr. Abdul Kallam

Humsafar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#17

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:48 pm

Biradar,
Apart from accountability and jamat democracy Reformist agenda includes end of baraat, and end to using misaaq and razaa as instruments of coercion. FD is making vague promises about accountability and such and nothing more. Reformists have met with the FD team, and as I mentioned elsewhere before, they are adamant about Dai being the absolute leader who cannot be questioned. On baraat they do not want to compromise. They want to continue with the kadambosi business and razaa. When in power and when challenged who is to say they will not behave like the current regime?
Reformists would have gladly joined FD but they are not offering much. They have been a disappointment.

Biradar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#18

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:11 pm

Humsafar wrote:Biradar,
Apart from accountability and jamat democracy Reformist agenda includes end of baraat, and end to using misaaq and razaa as instruments of coercion. FD is making vague promises about accountability and such and nothing more. Reformists have met with the FD team, and as I mentioned elsewhere before, they are adamant about Dai being the absolute leader who cannot be questioned. On baraat they do not want to compromise. They want to continue with the kadambosi business and razaa. When in power and when challenged who is to say they will not behave like the current regime?
Reformists would have gladly joined FD but they are not offering much. They have been a disappointment.
My friend Humsafar:

I have a question for you. Misaaq is an old institution, even pre-dating the start of the chain of daut mutlaqeen. Today, it mostly holds a symbolic value only. Why not just give the misaaq and move on?

Also, razaa is only needed for public religious events. No one is telling you to take razaa to pray on your own, fast, read the Quran etc. Again, in my experience, this is mainly of a symbolic nature. Yes, I agree that recently razaa has been used to terrorize people. However, it was not so. In the past (not the last few years) I have asked for razaa for many things, and have never had issues. Again, I agree that things are different now.

Also, I agree that there is no guarantee that they won't behave in a ridiculous way when they are in power. However, at present, it seems to me to be lesser of the evils. And, further, it seems to me hard to imagine how the progressives can attract more people to their cause. I may be wrong, of course, and perhaps there are ways to increase the progressive numbers.

Bottom line: some change is needed from the fanatical ways for Mr. Muffadul. One must examine the options and pick something which has a chance of working.

Biradar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#19

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:29 pm

SBM wrote:Br Biradar
Taizoon Shakir took upon himself to stand up against SMS and he started the blog about Inside Saify Mahal and exposed many ills of Royal Family of which SKQ is part and parcel of.
Where was SKQ for past 50 years when he saw the ills in the community and where was he and his sons when Taizoon Shakir was being harassed by the SMS Goons in Mumbai incident Is it possible that even SKQ may now being scared of Taizoon Shakir that he might spill the beans on him,
I don't know the details of what happened to Taizoon Shakir and who did and did not help him. It is obvious that he was under huge pressure from goons in Saifee Mahal.

I also don't know what were the opinions of S Qutbuddin on the Udaipur incidents. I am sure he did not support them, or think highly of them, as many of the Udaipur people were openly hostile to the da'i, and some even questioned the nass on 47th da'i. Please understand, if you question if the da'i is da'i al-mutlaq or not, you are basically done, even before you play the game. As they say "dead on arrival".

Now, as I said on a previous occasion, I do find it odd that S. Qutbuddin has not himself said more about the hatred against him, except for a few things he mentioned in passing. Obviously, he knows things best. However, I also thing this is more of a personality issue. He is quiet and inward looking, and does not believe in aggressive action. Hence, he is content spending time in Daar as-Sakina, writing, teaching, and providing general guidance, rather than fighting aggressively, for example, trying to enter Raudat Tahera.

If we look into history: after the battle of Karbala, Imam Ali Zayn al-Abidin also took a quietist stance. He spent time in writing, composing numerous prayers and praying day and night. His supplications are legendary. Why did he not support the movement of Mukhtar al-Thaqafi, who wanted to take revenge for the massacre in Karbala? Imam Hassan also took a quietist stance, and led a retired life. Again, this is a matter of personality.

I don't know all the answers, but believe that, even though important, these questions are not terribly pertinent at the moment.

SBM
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#20

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:33 pm

Br Biradar
Please check PM

Biradar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#21

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:51 pm

I want to say a few things, to clarify my views on why da'i is needed for general spiritual guidance.

First, we all know that there are two major aspects of Islam: Ilm (knowledge) and Amaal (actions). We know that the latter is partly laid out in the Quran, and partly in the hadith literature. People differ on the interpretation of the Quran as well as which hadith they should take as genuine.

Bohras are actually very similar to traditional Sunni ways of practice, except for minor difference. For example, they pray 5 times, fast 30 days, go for hajj, give zakaat, and believe in jihaad. Yes, they add the two additional pillars of walayaat and tahaarat, but again, these can be considered complimentary to the other pillars of Islam. Nothing radical here. In this sense, Bohras are very much like mainstream Muslims.

The question then comes about: what is Ilm? We all know the importance the prophet attached to knowledge. We can divide the knowledge into two types: scholarly and experiential. What I mean is: scholarly knowledge is one in which one dispassionately looks at a topic, finds evidence and makes conclusions. Like in the scientific method. Also, a large amount of taawil and haqaaiq literature fall into this category. The means of obtaining evidence may not be very scientific, however, the methods are not arbitrary. The other type, of experiential knowledge is more subtle. In this case, the knowledge is accompanied by direct experience of the effects of that knowledge. The difference is (for example) between knowing how to pray, and actually praying itself. You may read a book about namaaz, but that is not the same as praying the namaaz itself. Here, I mean the difference between reading a book on mysticism (say reading Rumi) and actually experiencing ecstatic states for oneself.

Now, I contend that we need a da'i and his organization for preserving and refreshing Ilm, specially of the religious sort. Many of the doctrines (outside the topics of fiqh) are subtle and difficult to learn, specially as most people don't have the training or philosophical preparation. It is not simply a matter of scholarship. A large part of the knowledge is oral, and interpretation by a guide is needed. Specially, in the interpretation of the Quran and hadith of the prophet, Ali and the Imams. A well established tradition of learning exists in the dawaat to propagate this knowledge. A da'i is the perfect person to lead these efforts, and help ordinary people incorporate the ilm in their daily lives, as much as possible.

What has happened is that the da'i has also started to provide secular organizations. This is not bad, as long as it is restricted to general guiding principles. However, when there is interference in details of local jamaats, problems creep in, as we all know well.

So, I think that the da'i plays a very important spiritual role in our lives. Yes, one need not agree 100% with him, and perhaps even not agree with 50% of things he says. However, he does represent an important focal point in transmission and curating of Ilm, which would otherwise be lost to us.

SBM
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#22

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:50 pm

Biradar
Bohras are actually very similar to traditional Sunni ways of practice, except for minor difference. For example, they pray 5 times, fast 30 days, go for hajj, give zakaat, and believe in jihaad. Yes, they add the two additional pillars of walayaat and tahaarat, but again, these can be considered complimentary to the other pillars of Islam. Nothing radical here. In this sense, Bohras are very much like mainstream Muslims.
So true, The Salahs prayed by Bohras and Sunni are very similar (in terms of Arkan and duas in those Arkans) except for putting the hands together (but certain Madhab in Sunni do not put their hands together) while Jafferia Madhab have totally different way of praying Salahs.
As far as having a Dai to follow, I would whole heartily agree if the Dai was an honest leader who followed the example of Prophet and his Wasi, Imam Ali and Imam Hussain in their life style. I am sure if that was the case a great majority of Muslim Ummah will be Dawoodi Bohra.
(Imam Ali and Imam Hussain did not take any wasila, did not ask for Sajda to them and they earned their own living while helping the needy)
Unfortunately that is missing and since I have only witnessed 51-52 and now 53 I have not found that anyone of them followed the example of Ahl-e-Bayt, period.

Ozdundee
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#23

Unread post by Ozdundee » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:59 pm

Anwar thank you for correcting the perception., you may be onto some thing interesting , a survival guide of living within an oppressive daWat as àn Azad , free from compliance , servitude. I like that and you will be surprised that many people do subconsciously when they refuse to accept all the instructions of the diai. when many do so the people accept it is no longer critical.

you may share your philosophy here

example so many people don't wear Rida in western countries, or wear the beard , or pay what they demand, or attend sermons as often as required , or socialise with outsiders .That in site self is reform. therefore one does not care if diaI is X y or z

Humsafar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#24

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:21 am

Biradar wrote: I have a question for you. Misaaq is an old institution, even pre-dating the start of the chain of daut mutlaqeen. Today, it mostly holds a symbolic value only. Why not just give the misaaq and move on?
You misunderstood, we are not against misaaq per se. Our youth take the misaaq when they come of age, and we accept it as part of faith. What we oppose is it's misuse, for decades it has been used as an instrument of oppression. Same with razaa.

Humsafar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#25

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:43 am

Anwar saheb,
Are you going to respond to my post? I don't see how your new-found Islamic ideals can allow you to make wild accusations against a group of people without any justification. Please tell us how reformists and progressives are guilty of "hypocrisy, cowardice and opportunism" and how we "in essence are hypocrites, gutless cowards and sellouts". You know these are serious accusations. I would expect you, now that you are enlightened and all and have a shiny new philosophy, to make a strong case to support your claims. And we can have a dialogue about it - one befitting your maturity and advanced age. If you can't then I would expect you take your words back. Surely you can do that much. Or are you going to build your cultural club on lies? By trashing a movement that did nothing wrong to you, that is not responsible for your 70 years of oppression, that you failed to support?
Waiting eagerly for dialogue or retraction.

Humsafar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#26

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:32 am

Biradar says:
the progressives do not have any clear idea of what they want
The he answers it himself in the next sentence:
Now, I more than support the basic idea of non-interference in local jamaat matters, financial transparencies, lack of coercion in fund collecting, freedom of conscience, etc.
Regarding..
there is a contingent among the progressive which challenges the idea of nass on 47th da'i, and other fundamental aspects of the faith.
This is a small minority mainly confined to Malegaon. They are not even part of the of the official reform movement, and not even worth discussing.

Biradar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#27

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:16 pm

Humsafar:

Can you post the text of the misaaq as used by the progressives? It would be interesting to compare it with the version used by the orthodox.

Biradar
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#28

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:15 pm

Ozdundee wrote:Biradar was this statement accidental or did you just throw a grenade into the discussion
Now, I am more than happy if the progressives decide they are done with the da'i and with other essential features of Islam and imaan, and want to form an independent group of their own.
Were you addressing progressive, reformists or anyone who does not conform to your basic interpretation of principles ?
Somehow I missed this post. Sorry.

This statement was not accidental. I was not trying to "throw a grenade". What I mean is: in Islam as practiced by Bohras (and Ismailis and Shia in general), there is a difference between being a Muslim and a Mumin, or between Islam and Iman. Islam, as S. Qadi Noman explains, is the outer circle, and one enters it by reciting the kalima shahadat. However, the inner circle is of Iman. To enter this circle, one must recognize and acknowledge (in addition to the Prophet) the Wasi (Ali), the Imam and, in the absence of the Imam, the da'i al-mutlaq. Now, you may reject the concept of Iman, but still be a Muslim. No problem. However, to be a Mumin, one must first be a Muslim.

Also, accordingly, entering the dawaat is like entering paradise. Dawaat is the paradise-in-potentia. Being a Muslim does not mean one will be automatically given entry into heaven. However, being a mumin does.

What I meant by the above statement is that when one leaves the circle of Iman, one is still a Muslim (unless one leaves religion altogether). Hence, for Bohras to advocate complete rejection of the da'i is like rejecting a fundamental aspect of the faith. Again, one still can be Muslim, but one has taken oneself out of the inner and more exalted circle of Iman.

anajmi
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#29

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:44 pm

And this definition is simply the bohra definition of Islam and Iman and is not to be confused with the definitions of the same provided by Allah in the Quran and as explained by the prophet (saw) himself.

fayyaaz
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Re: Obsession With Dai & Dawa't

#30

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:20 pm

Biradar wrote:What I mean is: in Islam as practiced by Bohras (and Ismailis and Shia in general), there is a difference between being a Muslim and a Mumin, or between Islam and Iman. Islam, as S. Qadi Noman explains, is the outer circle, and one enters it by reciting the kalima shahadat. However, the inner circle is of Iman. To enter this circle, one must recognize and acknowledge (in addition to the Prophet) the Wasi (Ali), the Imam and, in the absence of the Imam, the da'i al-mutlaq. Now, you may reject the concept of Iman, but still be a Muslim. No problem. However, to be a Mumin, one must first be a Muslim.
Anyone, specially an adult, can become a Muslim by reciting the kalima. Such persons are 'pretend' Muslims and in final analysis cannot to be trusted to continue being Muslims.

Being a Mumin in Islam requires that one is brainwashed into the faith in infancy and that the person has not been severely tested to want to denounce the indoctrination in adulthood. Those are the 'best' Mumins and can be trusted to keep the flame of Faith going. Another way to become a Mumin in Islam is to have a personal 'spiritual' experience. These type of experiences are almost always some kind of self-delusions.

Best examples of 'pretend' Muslims can be found in early Islam among the companions of Prophet himself. They clearly saw that their personal and political fortunes depended on keeping up the pretense. The zeal with which they demonstrated their Islam could easily be mistaken for Iman. Iman is extremely difficult to come by in adulthood. Becoming a Muslim, by comparison, is piece of cake.

[By the way, 'religious belief' is a misnomer. Beliefs require evidence. Religious beliefs are actually religious faiths. Faith is acceptance without evidence.]