A proposal for a new system

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Kaka Akela
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

A proposal for a new system

#1

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:34 pm

I just recently read that athiest parents raise excellent kids who are caring and tolerant. I don't want us all to become athiests but can we become God-believing non-religionists. All Christains, Jews, Muslims, Hindu and all other assorted people of differing faith should come together with their current knowledge of their religious practices and form secular groups within the confines of their own faith, with no clergy or preachers. All the office holders should be locally elected people with no central authority usurping the people power. this group should perform weddings, burials and all other rituals to the best of their current knowledge without the raza (or permissions) or involvement of any of the priest. these secular groups will perform all these rituals at cost with no salaams and najwas etc. etc. These secular groups can have an annual membership fee to meet the basic administrative costs, people of certain beliefs will raise funds to construct their own place of worship and the prayers will be lead by learned members who have more proven knowledge than the average member.

The current system is based solely on fear not love. yes when they see dai they shower him loudly with love but that showering is out of fear with the knowledge that if the priest finds out that I didn't yell loud enough then I will have to bear the consequences by them withholding raza, or burials.

The new system I am proposing is based on Science. we know proven laws of Science and have accepted them and use them for our daily living. similarly we know all the laws of the religious rituals and why not use them and practice them minus the clergy, there are no new laws being discovered in religion unlike Science. The clergy, specially in Dawoodi Bohras, withhold knowledge and limit their teachings to show power and to create fear, and making us lose our self-respect by forcing us to call ourselves slaves, as if they hold the keys to jannat and jahannum. That is a whole lot of BS. Jannat and jahannum are your destination based on your deeds only not on how many times you kissed their feet, how many ziafats you did or how much money you spent to please them. there is never an end as there are richer people coming along the turnpike. At one time Shk. Murtaza Dohadwala was on top with 11 Million Dollars donation, with in very few years Badri Lacewala came over the horizon, another few years later there will be someone else.

If athiests can do a good job of raising caring and tolerant kids, I think God-fearing non-religionists can do an even better job of raising their kids. and thats all what we all need.

If there is no priestly class and no central controlling authority and no secrecy in accounting of funds then we will not need any reform movement.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#2

Unread post by SBM » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:50 pm

Kaka Akela
Islam has given us a perfect model unfortunately that Model has been tweaked by religious Mafias. If only one would follow the true teaching of Islam without adding too many amendments, we would not need to worry about raising good children. Remember Ali and Fatema (RA) raised talented children on Islamic model

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#3

Unread post by think » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:11 pm

sbm, what do you have to say about the recent debate in the indian government for not allowing polygammy.

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#4

Unread post by SBM » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:24 pm

think wrote:sbm, what do you have to say about the recent debate in the indian government for not allowing polygammy.
I live in USA and polygammy is not allowed in USA either but Mormons in Utah and other states still do practice Polygamy openly.
BTW Islam does not promote Polygamy and it is not required to have more than one wife unless for certain conditions.
There are only 5 pillars of Islam (Bohras have 7 pillars) and none of them is either Polygamy or Jihad.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#5

Unread post by accountability » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:20 pm

kaka me and one more guy agree with you, :)

pope francis said
It is not necessary to believe in God to be a good person. In a way, the traditional. Notion of God is outdated. One can be spiritual but not religious. It is not necessary to go to church and give money — for many, nature can be a church. Some of the best people in history do not believe in God, while some of the worst deeds were done in His name.

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/p ... rIDWDF0.99

so let us bring about that utopia.

john lennon

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#6

Unread post by accountability » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:54 pm

sbm said
Remember Ali and Fatema (RA) raised talented children on Islamic model
it is quoted in many books that imam hassan had married more than 100 times, he used to divorce them after very short association.
Qoot al-Quloob by Abu Talib al-Makki, who died in the year 380 A. H. This is the text of what he has mentioned in it: “Al-Hasan bin Ali (a.s) married 250 women; and it was said (that he married) three hundred women. (Imam) Ali was bored with that and hated it out of shame of their families when he divorced them. He said: ‘Al-Hasan divorces (your daughters), so do not marry (them to him).’ A man from Hamadan said to him: ‘By Allah, O Commander of the faithful, we will marry him (women) whatever he wishes. He can cling to whomever he loves and can divorce whomever he hates.’ So Ali was pleased with that and recited: ‘If I was a gatekeeper at the gate of the Garden, I would say to (the people of) Hamadan : ‘Enter it with peace!’

Divorcing is though allowed, but prophet disliked divorces. there are several hadiths in this regard.
Ali married 9 women and had 4 concibines. he had 15 sons and 18 daughters. 18 daughters were from concibines. he did not practice polygamy while he was married to Fatima, which lasted 6 years till fatima's death.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#7

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:02 pm

It is not necessary to go to church and give money
Allah says in the Quran - اتَّبِعُوا مَن لاَّ يَسْأَلُكُمْ أَجْرًا وَهُم مُّهْتَدُونَ - 36-21

Follow those who ask no reward of you, and themselves are rightly guided!

A sign of a person rightly guided is one who asks no reward of you.

If you study well, you will realize that you have contributed to the problems just as much as anyone else that you choose to blame for it. Today we are saying that we do not need the clergy, but it is we who created the clergy. We give them money because we do not want to burden ourselves with the knowledge. We do not want to worry about what to do when someone dies, so we pay someone to do it for us. We do not know how to perform a nikaah. It is just easier to pay someone for it. We do not know how to carry out a divorce. It is just easier to pay someone for it. If that guy does it well, we pay him more. And then we start bowing down in front of him and then pretty soon he becomes your Aqa!!

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#8

Unread post by think » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:01 pm

quran surah 88 ayat 21.
"Therfore do thou remind, for thou art one to remind. Thou art not one to manage their affairs."
and that is the one and only job of the clergy. but what do you see in the bohri clergy? and what do you see in the hordes of bohri abdes that are led astray? Try to understand the hypocrisy of the clergy. They will change their statements and give a damm about their character and conduct or that they are answerable to Allah, just for their worldly gains.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:07 pm

"Therfore do thou remind, for thou art one to remind. Thou art not one to manage their affairs."
The last part is not a part of the ayah. The ayah is - فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُذَكِّرٌ

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#10

Unread post by think » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:34 pm

It is ayah number 22 of the same surah.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:17 pm

Thanks. There is a difference between the translations. I think a more accurate translation of that ayah is that the prophet is not responsible for the conduct of the people rather than not for managing their affairs. But, I may be wrong.

think
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Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#12

Unread post by think » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:29 pm

I am quoting yousuf ali translation. but either ways my question stands unanswered. does the bohri clergy who calls himself the haqiqi representative of god on earth carry out message of Allah or does he meddle into the affairs of bohris at every turn in their life . has he the god given right to do so? Is he right in charging bohris with all kinds of taxes and fees from the day a bohri child is born till his death. even to bury a bohri the family has to go through the pain and suffering met out to them by this clergy. The clergy's behaviour is different for different folks. If a hindu meets them ,their attitude is submissive and very polite but if a bohri wants to meet the clergy it would be like trying to meet a king and the bohri is treated as trash.

Kaka Akela
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#13

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:21 pm

British left in 1947 with their superior (gori chamdi) attitude, and STS picked up where british left off. He adopted all thse words like Royal, Prince, Princesses, qasr e aali etc.etc.
and now we have been living with this superior attitudes for last 65 years. In their vaez now they use terminology using shahzada for Hasan & Husain to imprint on the brain-dead abdes that we are not doing anything different, this was done from 1400 years ago. also they in their bayans they say that so and so came to Rasulullah SA and sajda bajavi ne araz kidi, thats B S, according to the true history no one gave sajda to Rasulullah SA and Rasulullah never dmanded or even asked for it. But they are writing revisionist history and brain-dead abdes don't know any better.

I find the behavior of all Aamils to be very arrogant and they have horse-blinders on their eyes and can not see any one's difficulties in life all they see is how to make more money for themselves and the Dawat (to keep their jobs).

think
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Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#14

Unread post by think » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:52 pm

yes, misaak is given. Misaak is just a bohri tradition. The innoscent age in which this misaak is held the child does not understand a word of what he or she is suaring to. surprizingly after having sworn in to be a ghulaam there is big fun fare and partying.
This King to which a bohri has become a slave; when he is in pain and visits a bohri doctor, he has to lie down on the examining table just like any other human being. His clothes are removed for examination and everything goes on just as it would be for a normal human being. Is not cowardice on the part of this so called dai to claim a bohri to be his ghulam and at the same time when he gets sick, there is no money salaam from the doctor for treating this so called king dai. the dai's whole tone of voice changes completely from being a proud commander of his ghulaams to one begging for life.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: A proposal for a new system

#15

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:29 pm

think bhai,

Prophet and Ali were both human beings who would fall sick, bleed when injured, and die.

Knowing what you know now of Muhammad and Ali, would you have considered being their ghulam when they were alive?

Yes/No?

Why?

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#16

Unread post by think » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:22 pm

would lovingly have. because they would not cheat me. The ghulaam of the rasool was an honour, but to day the kothar demands ghulami and lives a life of oppulance when there are bohris with all kinds of problems. Rasool and his sahabis . Imam Ali bought bettger clothes for his ghulaam then what he wore. do you think the Dai would ever live in the shacks of Bhindi bazaar or survive on salt and roti. For Gods sake this corrupt and devious kothar is cutting big cakes for a dead dai. The hieght of brainwashing and self glorification.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: A proposal for a new system

#17

Unread post by fayyaaz » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:31 pm

think bhai,

Thank you for your reply. Would you extend your ghulami to 21 Imams and at least some of the Dais. If you do, which Imam/Dai would you not extend your ghulami to?

Once you have replied, I will bring misaaq up in our discussion.

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: A proposal for a new system

#18

Unread post by think » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:26 pm

non of the imams or dais would force me to be their ghulaam. secondly i cannot live that long to be ghulaam of all dais and all imams. To be a ghulam , if accepted would be an honour and the behaviour of the ghulam would also be such. To day there are luteras all over in the bohri's. Let alone ghulaam, titles of mulla and shiekh are auctioned off to the highest bidder, regardless . . History has it. Just because one is a son of a imam or nabi or dai does not mean he becomes the next dai. Allah loving persons least care about this world but this dai and his dad and his dad were all about money. his cohorts plainly ask how much money would be given ,if the dai comes to your house. The very idea of inviting dai is not religious but so one can feel proud among your friends and family. such and other actions are not indicative of a true lover of Allah. In this materialistic world your dai leaves no stone unturned to grab. Study his high flying and money grabbing tactics and you will reach the same conclusion. A Allah loving person can never be a money grabbing person. Even to treat the sick at saifee hospital one has to be influential and get reccomendation from some one with influence. such is the tragedy of this so called religious leader. Money and power has made him blind. He cannot see or feel the pain of the ordinary bohri. He has all the time in the world to hop skip all over the world and rub shoulders with the worldly politicians whether hindu or christians.