Dated science in Dawat Books

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
ghulam muhammed
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Dated science in Dawat Books

#1

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:08 pm

Image

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Biradar
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#2

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:07 am

I think Dawedar Mr Muffadul Saifuddin (LA) needs a lesson in basic astronomy. Perhaps he should register in elementary school where the structure of the solar system is first taught. No wonder we see the steady degeneration of intellect of the bohras, give such an idiotic leader. Some outstanding specimens of DMMS (LA) followers are here on the forum itself. Perhaps they made this "bud-day" cake for DMMS (LA)? Come alhaq, fess up, did you make the cake?
ghulam muhammed wrote:Image

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#3

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:54 pm

Biradar wrote:I think Dawedar Mr Muffadul Saifuddin (LA) needs a lesson in basic astronomy. Perhaps he should register in elementary school where the structure of the solar system is first taught. No wonder we see the steady degeneration of intellect of the bohras, give such an idiotic leader. Some outstanding specimens of DMMS (LA) followers are here on the forum itself. Perhaps they made this "bud-day" cake for DMMS (LA)? Come alhaq, fess up, did you make the cake?
ghulam muhammed wrote:Image
:lol: :lol: so many things wrong with that solar system.... Scientists have managed to send voyager spacecrafts to the edge of the solar system based on their understanding of it and some dumb mufaddalies still think the Earth is at the center of the Solar system....sigh.... Maybe Mufaddal Saifuddin should put the Velan aside and teach 4th grade science in his next bayan...

UnhappyBohra
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#4

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:05 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Biradar wrote:I think Dawedar Mr Muffadul Saifuddin (LA) needs a lesson in basic astronomy. Perhaps he should register in elementary school where the structure of the solar system is first taught. No wonder we see the steady degeneration of intellect of the bohras, give such an idiotic leader. Some outstanding specimens of DMMS (LA) followers are here on the forum itself. Perhaps they made this "bud-day" cake for DMMS (LA)? Come alhaq, fess up, did you make the cake?
:lol: :lol: so many things wrong with that solar system.... Scientists have managed to send voyager spacecrafts to the edge of the solar system based on their understanding of it and some dumb mufaddalies still think the Earth is at the center of the Solar system....sigh.... Maybe Mufaddal Saifuddin should put the Velan aside and teach 4th grade science in his next bayan...
Dawoodi Bohra philosophy views the Universe as geocentric according to the prevalent science of the time ( that of Aristotle and Plato) I have attended numerous sabaqs during Burhanuddin Moula's time where the teacher insisted that was still true. Obviously, that we have managed to send numerous space crafts to Mars and into orbits of planets beyond Mars using heliocentric calculations, proves that modern day science is correct. Not sure why Bohras continue to believe in the old model. Also, one wonders why the authors of our books were limited by the erroneous science of the time, if they were divinely inspired....

Rightlyguided
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#5

Unread post by Rightlyguided » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:20 pm

UnhappyBohra wrote:
Dawoodi Bohra philosophy views the Universe as geocentric according to the prevalent science of the time ( that of Aristotle and Plato) I have attended numerous sabaqs during Burhanuddin Moula's time where the teacher insisted that was still true. Obviously, that we have managed to send numerous space crafts to Mars and into orbits of planets beyond Mars using heliocentric calculations, proves that modern day science is correct. Not sure why Bohras continue to believe in the old model. Also, one wonders why the authors of our books were limited by the erroneous science of the time, if they were divinely inspired....

You state that the Dawoodi bohra doctrine and belief system is false.
You doubt the authors of the great books of our belief system.
You say Burhanuddin Moula RAs teachings are wrong.

Coming from a devout KQ follower.
You and your kind openly abuse Burhanuddin Moula RA, Its crystal clear.
Your thought process your belief system is different to us (the real dawoodi bohras , followers of Moula RA)
Just shows where you come from and where you are heading

Good luck.

Biradar
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#6

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 am

UnhappyBohra wrote: Dawoodi Bohra philosophy views the Universe as geocentric according to the prevalent science of the time ( that of Aristotle and Plato) I have attended numerous sabaqs during Burhanuddin Moula's time where the teacher insisted that was still true. Obviously, that we have managed to send numerous space crafts to Mars and into orbits of planets beyond Mars using heliocentric calculations, proves that modern day science is correct. Not sure why Bohras continue to believe in the old model. Also, one wonders why the authors of our books were limited by the erroneous science of the time, if they were divinely inspired....
I know this very well, as I have heard this nonsense from top teachers from Jamia. The modern Bohras are an insult to the genuinely curious philosophers and seekers of old, who they claim to follow. These geocentric views were not surprising 1000 years ago, and they may have represented state-of-art at that point. However, to continue to maintain them today is absurd and an insult to the intellect. Yet, we will see idiot Bohras parroting this nonsense in sabaaks and other occasions. It is clear that the Bohra leadership is no longer of any relevance to modern life. They continue to harp on 1000 year old themes, acting like fools while pretending to be some sort of medieval kings.

The roti-making madness by Dawedar Mr. Muffadul (LA) is a prime example. Our parents and ancestors fed their families for thousands of year. Now, this pretender has suddenly woken up from his slumber and thinks he is invented sliced bread. I mean, how absurd can he be! If this Johnny-come-lately can't understand that people have been feeding their families with mohabaat for 1000s of years, how can he claim to be correct in any other thing? If he does not even understand the elementary facts of planetary motion, how can he claim to advise his followers on far more complex things? Bohra leaders are con-men, out to fleece their sheep-like followers of money. That is all. Islam is the last thing on their mind. It is just najwaa, jamaan, ziayaafat and gold coins. Shameful.

ponga bhori
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#7

Unread post by ponga bhori » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:08 am

The cake maker has not put the earth in the centre. If the SUN was added the picture would be complete to show that all the PLANETS are revolving round the SUN.

And may be the planets are just wrongly ordered or just imagination of the artistic cake makers or lack of his knowledge. No sabaks and things like that given to the cake maker.

You guys are Dai na dushmans and just pick arguements at everything the Bhoras do. Just enjoy the cake guys like the abdes do. Do not put too much attention to such scientific details, it is just a cake. :D :lol: :D

fayyaaz
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#8

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:24 am

Detractors here are all so silly. Isn't it obvious that all heavenly bodies revolve around the Earth. Use your eyes, people.

Just like we celebrate Mola's birthdays a year early, we also welcome April First early.

Biradar
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#9

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:10 am

ponga bhori wrote:
And may be the planets are just wrongly ordered or just imagination of the artistic cake makers or lack of his knowledge. No sabaks and things like that given to the cake maker.
My ponga bhori friend. Have you taken any sabaaks in your life? Please, next time you get a chance, ask the local mullah how many planets there are, and what their arrangement is. A few years ago, a mullah from jaamia came to our city for Muharram. He gave a long lecture one day about the planets and how there were 5 planets and how everything revolved around the Earth. He explicitly said "Who will you believe, the one for whom the whole world was created [referring to the prophet] or those who do "fa-fa" with a telescope?" He went on to say that Aashir Muddabir pushes the outermost heavenly sphere, making it rotate and transmitting the motion to the inner planets and heavenly bodies.

Now, these are just old primitive myths of a time when not much was known about the universe. However, even then, there were many who understood that the geocentric ideas were too complicated, as a complex set of cycles and epicycles were needed to explain actual observed motion. Ptolemy's Almagest was written in the second century (i.e. 400 years before Islam was revealed) and was available in translation to the 10 and 11th century Muslims. This is a brilliant synthesis of observations, but, ultimately, was not the correct scientific theory about planetary motion. Even at the time of the Greeks there were people who thought that a proper system needs to be constructed with the sun at the center. However, it took the genius of Copernicus and Kepler, followed by the synthesis by Newton for the full system to be constructed.

We are living in the 21st century, and it behoves us to make an attempt to see things as they are, and not as we wish them to be. This is very important. Often, our views are colored by our religious leaders, who choose to keep us ignorant and dependent on them. However, they are ultimately wrong, and their only motive is to control other people's lives and gather money and power. Thats all. It does not matter how white their clothes are. Their hearts and minds are black, and filled with lust and greed.

anajmi
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:45 am

If you look closely, you will be able to see SMS right at the center of the earth. :wink:

fayyaaz
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#11

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:00 pm

Biradar, my friend, I love your passion.

Do you think Mola knows about fibonacci sequence?

Fundamental form in the Universe appears to be a spiral. Even life is based on double helix, DNA's fundamental shape.

This video purports to show, very convincingly I think, that earth along with other heavenly objects move in spirals, not in circles or ellipses. What an insight!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9YTjAOFiOo

I am on the look out for spirals in motions of velan when Mola makes a roti. :wink:

UnhappyBohra
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#12

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:57 pm

Rightlyguided wrote:
UnhappyBohra wrote:
Dawoodi Bohra philosophy views the Universe as geocentric according to the prevalent science of the time ( that of Aristotle and Plato) I have attended numerous sabaqs during Burhanuddin Moula's time where the teacher insisted that was still true. Obviously, that we have managed to send numerous space crafts to Mars and into orbits of planets beyond Mars using heliocentric calculations, proves that modern day science is correct. Not sure why Bohras continue to believe in the old model. Also, one wonders why the authors of our books were limited by the erroneous science of the time, if they were divinely inspired....

You state that the Dawoodi bohra doctrine and belief system is false.
You doubt the authors of the great books of our belief system.
You say Burhanuddin Moula RAs teachings are wrong.

Coming from a devout KQ follower.
You and your kind openly abuse Burhanuddin Moula RA, Its crystal clear.
Your thought process your belief system is different to us (the real dawoodi bohras , followers of Moula RA)
Just shows where you come from and where you are heading

Good luck.
Actually you are wrong on so many levels. I am, by my own admission, one of the weakest followers of Qutbuddin Moula. Despite being fully convinced that he is the true Dai, I have not given misaq and I am too chicken to declare my support openly. I am unfortunately still an ejamaat card holder out of fear of social boycott.

Having said that, to question is to learn. And questioning to further one's learning is permitted in Islam, which derives from the word "to question." It is very natural to ask this question in light of the discoveries of modern science - that has proven the positions and count of planets and has managed to send space crafts into the orbits of the gas giants and beyond. When I posed this question in my sabaq, to someone who sits in the front rows of MS gatherings, I was squarely condemned precisely in the way you have done @WronglyGuided. I was told that modern science is wrong (because it has already downgraded Pluto from a planet to a dwarf planet....) It was a glib answer because because calling Pluto a "planet" or a "dwarf planet" is a matter of semantics whereas helio centricness, the order of the orbits and the existence of the first eight plantes around the sun are now an irrefutable fact, given the findings of space telescopes, Voyager and Mars missions.

The geocentric insistence had come from someone who is very much in the front rows of MS gatherings... I had asked the question with appropriate humility, in the apropriate forum and all I received was a glib brush off! I will be asking this question to the Qutbuddins when I study the book again with them. I am pretty sure that the answer I receive will be well considered and honest!

Biradar
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#13

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:04 pm

fayyaaz wrote:Biradar, my friend, I love your passion.

Do you think Mola knows about fibonacci sequence?
Mola, or more accurately, "More La" knows about finances and how to raise funds for his Yazidi and Iblisi lifestyle. Does knowledge of Fibonacci sequence increase that aspect of "More La"'s lust? If no, then I think he gives a hoot about it. "More La" was probably sleeping in his kindergarten classes, snoring while the teacher was explaining basic facts of life. Poor bohris, stuck with such a primitive leader.

Sceptical
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#14

Unread post by Sceptical » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:05 pm

Arab and persian scientists were among the best of their time.

Imam Hakim (AS) was one of the first muslim caliph to build an astronomy observatory (11th century)

regarding the mathematical precision of the Fatimid Calendar, I really doubt that they thought that Earth was the center of the universe.

Since Johannes Kepler (16th century), it's well established that the previous geocentric system (ancients greeks - Aristotle, Plato) was wrong.

I never heard SMB(ra) saying anything about geocentric system. I might be wrong.
fayyaaz wrote: Fundamental form in the Universe appears to be a spiral. Even life is based on double helix, DNA's fundamental shape.
It's an urban legend.
Of course, there are many spirals in nature, but nothing to do with the "golden ratio" and the Fibonacci spiral.

Biradar
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#15

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:12 pm

Not that I want to put too much emphasis, but there is no need to assume a heliocentric view to design a precise calendar system. This can be done (and was done) with geocentric theories too.

I have not heard SMB speak about this issue either. His representatives, however, did, and these views are widespread in jaamia and among the bohris in general.

Sceptical wrote:Arab and persian scientists were among the best of their time.

Imam Hakim (AS) was one of the first muslim caliph to build an astronomy observatory (11th century)

regarding the mathematical precision of the Fatimid Calendar, I really doubt that they thought that Earth was the center of the universe.

Since Johannes Kepler (16th century), it's well established that the previous geocentric system (ancients greeks - Aristotle, Plato) was wrong.

I never heard SMB(ra) saying anything about geocentric system. I might be wrong.
fayyaaz wrote: Fundamental form in the Universe appears to be a spiral. Even life is based on double helix, DNA's fundamental shape.
It's an urban legend.
Of course, there are many spirals in nature, but nothing to do with the "golden ratio" and the Fibonacci spiral.

Sceptical
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#16

Unread post by Sceptical » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:25 pm

Biradar wrote:Not that I want to put too much emphasis, but there is no need to assume a heliocentric view to design a precise calendar system. This can be done (and was done) with geocentric theories too.
Agree, it's possible.

I just wanted to emphasize the Arabs solid knowledge in astronomy during Middle-Age.
So i doubt that our books (inherited from Fatimids) using the archaic geocentric system.

Of course, I might be wrong.

Most of Aamil i've met were just ignorant/illiterate about modern science.

UnhappyBohra
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Re: Mufaddal Saifuddin (and related topics) - 2015

#17

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:48 pm

Sceptical wrote:
Biradar wrote:Not that I want to put too much emphasis, but there is no need to assume a heliocentric view to design a precise calendar system. This can be done (and was done) with geocentric theories too.
Agree, it's possible.

I just wanted to emphasize the Arabs solid knowledge in astronomy during Middle-Age.
So i doubt that our books (inherited from Fatimids) using the archaic geocentric system.

Of course, I might be wrong.

Most of Aamil i've met were just ignorant/illiterate about modern science.
How then would you explain the repeated emphasis on the various spheres around Earth; each containing heavenly bodies including the stars?

The book I was studying was about 800 years old. Written by an early Dai of Yemen. At that time the geocentric view was the accepted model. The heliocentric view was published by Copernicus in the mid 16th Century. So it is not so far fetched that the Fatimid books and books written by early duat mutlaqeen talked about the Earth in geocentric terms. Just as they talked about the Aristotlean "elements" and the four humors... My frustration arose from the fact that "timeless" ilm was imparted in particularly dated terms and no effort was made to reconcile contradictions with modern and more accurate science. For instance we already know that there are infinite number of factors that affect a human being's health - not just four humors. In fact, you rarely think of the body as consisting of four humors any more. Yet the four humors are mentioned many times in our books.

The fact that an Imam built a state of the art observatory of the time, does not necessarily mean that he did not believe in the prevailing model of the universe - which was geocentric. As a result all dawat books do refer to the geocentric model of the universe. The sabaq givers would have been better off accepting the fact that Imams and duat had human limitations and thus spoke in the terminology of the prevailing science of the time - some of which we now know to be incorrect.

james
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Re: Dated science in Dawat Books

#18

Unread post by james » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:20 am

Doesn't one just love pseudo intellectuals trying to woo one another? :lol:


Image

Porus claims that the above Image is from Ikhwan us Safa.Do the wannabes want to debunk Ikhwan us Safa next? :roll:


http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6031

UnhappyBohra
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Re: Dated science in Dawat Books

#19

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:19 am

james wrote:Doesn't one just love pseudo intellectuals trying to woo one another? :lol:


Image

Porus claims that the above Image is from Ikhwan us Safa.Do the wannabes want to debunk Ikhwan us Safa next? :roll:


http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6031
Are you saying that the entire Universe revolves around the Earth?

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Dated science in Dawat Books

#20

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:18 am

^^ James should do a quick check with Neil Degrasse Tyson about whether Cassini made it to Saturn based on calculations of Saturn's orbit around the Earth! :lol:

Biradar
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Re: Dated science in Dawat Books

#21

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:30 pm

Our resident dim-wit has posted about Ikhwan as-Safa, and asks if we can "debunk" it. The Rasaail Ikhwan as-Safa (Rasaail) are a compendium of medieval knowledge, probably assembled under the guidance of the mastuureen Imams. The exact authorship is not clear, and a matter for debate.

In any case, one can not "debunk" books like the Rasaail. They represent a snapshot of knowledge of the time they were written, and nothing more. They are of historical interest, specially their "scientific" parts. Science and mathematics have moved on considerably. However, their general philosophical ideas of syncretism, egalitarianism and liberalism are things to ponder about and incorporate (with modifications) into our lives. Ironically, the Kothari machine actually displays quite the opposite spirit than the Ikhwan. The Kotharis are all about power, money and fanaticism. The Ikhwan are pretty much on the opposite spectrum: they preach friendship, brotherhood, humility, syncretism, and consider all religions and all sciences equally worthy of study. Contrast this to the mad rantings of Mr. Muffadul (LA). No need to elaborate further.

As to the particulars of science in the Rasaail. These are horribly outdated. For example, they use ideas from Ptolemy, who used a geocentric system to construct a very sophisticated model of the solar system. I should say that despite what one may think, this geocentric system is actually very good at predicting motion of the heavenly bodies. However, in terms of conceptual correctness, they are lacking.

Further, even the system of arithmetic, geometry and logic presented by the Rasaail are outdated. For example, the first epistle is on numbers, and has ideas which are rather primitive. The system of logic is mainly borrowed from Aristotle. Logic, meanwhile, has moved on considerably.

To take these ancient texts as providing scientific facts which are eternally true is just stupid. However, I am sure that jaamia educated mullahs do not know any better, and continue to harp on these ancient erroneous ideas. Further, even the top leadership of the Bohras (like Mr. Muffadul (LA)) will continue to parrot these, as they never learned science or the scientific methods. Hence, in a broad sense, certain types of religions actually are like boat anchors: they hold people down, ossifying their minds and beliefs. Meanwhile the rest of the world moves on, and they are still left making rotis as if that is the cutting-edge of knowledge, something others have done for 10,000 years. Sad.

bohrabhai
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Re: Dated science in Dawat Books

#22

Unread post by bohrabhai » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:08 pm

http://akhbar.mumineen.org/2015/03/18/p ... 0th-march/
Partial Solar Eclipse for Europe and North Africa on Friday, 20th March
Posted on March 18, 2015 by DBNet Editor (ap)
This Friday, there will be a Partial Solar Eclipse in Europe, northern and eastern Asia and northern and western Africa. The eclipse starts at 07:41 UTC and ends at 11:50 UTC. This eclipse will not affect India or North America.

Eclipses are a time of caution and ibadat in the form of namaaz or tilwatul Quran. Pregnant ladies should be especially diligent and not handle metal objects.

Food, drink and leisure pursuits are to be avoided.


For more details please see Busaheba’s Sahifa – part 3, p21.

Use the Eclipse Calculator to see specific timings for your home city. More details on this eclipse at: http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2015-march-20

bohrabhai
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Re: Dated science in Dawat Books

#23

Unread post by bohrabhai » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:10 pm

IMG-20151221-WA0016.jpg
aaje waaz ma mola ye nakhun katarva ni zikr farmavi. jumoa ye nakhun kapvu afzal che ya pachi somvaar kape mangal budh n shanivaare to na j kape

New
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Re: Dated science in Dawat Books

#24

Unread post by New » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:35 pm

Partial Solar Eclipse:
I know some pregnat ladies have scheduled operations to have their metal rods taken out during this period.
After the eclipse, they will do "snan" and back to the operating room.

Same way some ladies are getting their dental implants temporarily removed.