Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Wajid
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#61

Unread post by Wajid » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:45 pm

Now that is based on opinion...
As of MS , I agree with you - all his actions in public perfectly justify your statement. We are witnessing the drama on daily basis ...

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#62

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:52 pm

Yes, I would give you that. The lifestyle of the MS represents that of Firaun. But there is no dearth of his abdes comparing him with the prophets of Allah either.

The bottom line is that if you have to choose one of these two Dais, I think you would be better off choosing none. It is just a matter of probability and logical thinking. Since there is no way in hell they are both on the right path and only a 50% chance that one of them is right, I would go take the 100% route. Ditch them both. Follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). However, if you are one of the unlucky ones that has to choose one, then you should choose SKQ. He will probably try to be better than MS cause he is behind. It's a pity he did not invite the progressives to join his fold!!

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#63

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:48 pm

Wajid wrote:Things may have gone wrong and certainly have gone wrong during the last 40+ years. My concern is TODAY.
It all starts back from late STS era. Lets talk about just one of them.....If you read the judgement of Bombay high court in Chandabhoy galla case in 1921 by Justice A.B. Marten, with hundreds of pages of testimony, the court clearly found BADRI MAHAL was purchased from Galla money, and this money was to be re-paid by Syedna to the Trust (Sir Adamjee Peerbhoy) at 6% interest. So all this acquisition of wealth and power has not started today or 40 years ago, but since the late 51st dai took over.

Wajid
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#64

Unread post by Wajid » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:18 pm

Bhai Anajmi,
Well, it all boils down to your core conviction. We can agree to disagree ...
لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَ

Fi AmanIllah

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#65

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:50 pm

Sorry, I was being generous when I said each Dai has a 50 % probability of being right. If you throw the Alvi Bohra Dai in the mix, who also claims to be the only true Dai, then that probability gors.down to 33.33% and I am sure if we go further back, it will go down even further. And the beautiful thing is that not a single one can present a unique argument. All of them present the exact same arguments for being the chosen ones.

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#66

Unread post by Al-Noor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:25 am

Wajid wrote:Salaam o Alaikum (hopefully you know to respond to the Salaams) ...

I have no more arguments to make. I quote Allama Iqbaal who has a few fitting couplets for you :

Qoum Mazhab Se Hai, Mazhab Jo Nahin, Tum Bhi Nahin
Jazb-e-Baham Jo Nahin, Mehfil-e-Anjum Bhi Nahin

Jin Ko Ata Nahin Dunya Mein Koi Fann, Tum Ho
Nahin Jis Qoum Ko Parwaye Nasheman, Tum Ho


Fi AmanIllah
first you used Quran and now Iqbal?

stop misusing Quran if you want to deserve salaam back....

how can you compare SKQ/MS with yousef and yakub and other great prophets while in reality they live life of firoun and yazid?

just yesterday I show you an example how any ayat can be used for any agenda and thats exactly what you are doing....

please repent as soon as possible. salaam on you of you regret from your ways. : )

Fiamanillah.

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#67

Unread post by Al-Noor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:05 am

Wajid wrote:Bhai Anajmi,
Well, it all boils down to your core conviction. We can agree to disagree ...
لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَ

Fi AmanIllah
BTW you keep using this ayat but do you even understand what it means?

things which you are propagandising by quoting Quran is not DEEN but FILTH, and all muslemin and momeenin have all rights to expose this FILTH so that more people wont fall in your leaders trap.

Wajid
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#68

Unread post by Wajid » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:26 am

Al-Noor wrote:
Wajid wrote:Bhai Anajmi,
Well, it all boils down to your core conviction. We can agree to disagree ...
لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَ

Fi AmanIllah
BTW you keep using this ayat but do you even understand what it means?

things which you are propagandising by quoting Quran is not DEEN but FILTH, and all muslemin and momeenin have all rights to expose this FILTH so that more people wont fall in your leaders trap.

Noorbhai Salaams,
Pehle aap Salaam ka jawab dena sikhiye phir aage baat karenge Inshallah ...

(Bang-e-Dra-120) Jawab-e-Shikwa (جواب شکوہ)
Naaz Hai Taaqat-e-Guftaar Pe Insanon Ko
Baat Karne Ka Saliqa Nahin Nadanon Ko!


Fi AmanIllah

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#69

Unread post by Al-Noor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:59 am

Wajid wrote:
Al-Noor wrote: BTW you keep using this ayat but do you even understand what it means?

things which you are propagandising by quoting Quran is not DEEN but FILTH, and all muslemin and momeenin have all rights to expose this FILTH so that more people wont fall in your leaders trap.

Noorbhai Salaams,
Pehle aap Salaam ka jawab dena sikhiye phir aage baat karenge Inshallah ...

(Bang-e-Dra-120) Jawab-e-Shikwa (جواب شکوہ)
Naaz Hai Taaqat-e-Guftaar Pe Insanon Ko
Baat Karne Ka Saliqa Nahin Nadanon Ko!


Fi AmanIllah
Stop using word of ALLAH for your filthy propaganda and also ask your leaders to live the way they preach and then you might become worthy for my salaam... :wink:

Fiamanillah.

Wajid
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#70

Unread post by Wajid » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:50 pm

Al-Noor wrote:
Wajid wrote: Noorbhai Salaams,
Pehle aap Salaam ka jawab dena sikhiye phir aage baat karenge Inshallah ...

Naaz Hai Taaqat-e-Guftaar Pe Insanon Ko
Baat Karne Ka Saliqa Nahin Nadanon Ko!


Fiamanillah.[/color]
Aap ke naam par ek aur sher arz kiya hai ...

Amal Se Zindagi Banti Hai Jannat Bhi, Jahanum Bhi
Ye Khaki Apni Fitrat Mein Na Noori Hai Na Naari Hai

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#71

Unread post by Al-Noor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:03 pm

Amal Se Zindagi Banti Hai Jannat Bhi, Jahanum Bhi
exactly, so start showing amal and not playing around with Quran ayats....all the best....btw if you do belong to KQ clan do disclose it, dont be shy. face the reality.

Fiamanillah
.
Last edited by Al-Noor on Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:57 pm, edited 5 times in total.

SBM
Posts: 6337
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#72

Unread post by SBM » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:05 pm

Wajid
Salaam
You have earned enough brownie points to be put on AL IGNORE's illustrious list of IGNORE.

Biradar
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#73

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:53 pm

Wajid wrote:
Al-Noor wrote:
Aap ke naam par ek aur sher arz kiya hai ...

Amal Se Zindagi Banti Hai Jannat Bhi, Jahanum Bhi
Ye Khaki Apni Fitrat Mein Na Noori Hai Na Naari Hai
Wajid, you are wasting your time. Arguing with "Al-Noor" is pointless. He is an adamant fool. Nothing more than that. You have better luck getting a monkey to type out Shakespeare. He suffers from intense form of Dunning–Kruger effect: in effect, he is so stupid he does not know he is stupid. He has polluted this board with his foul and nasty ideas. I suggest you refrain from arguing with him. He will never change.

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#74

Unread post by Al-Noor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:14 pm

KQ followers I just found some thing unusual, any explanation? probably before your deal failed with MS, he was a nice dude?

you would like to misuse any Quran ayat for this as well?
Attachments
Abdeali, Khuzema's son on Nass proclamation.mp4
(2.83 MiB) Downloaded 1625 times

Wajid
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#75

Unread post by Wajid » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:57 pm

Salaams bhai Biradar and SBM,
Actually, I realized that. Initially I thought that there was a genuine quest for knowledge. So I spent time to respond his queries point by point. But then soon found out that the intention was just to spill out garbage on each and every post on this forum. I am not even sure if he even bothers to read the answers to his questions.
I am relatively new to this forum - started with giving him the benefit of doubt.

Just before I refrain from responding or engaging with him, I feel it is important to respond to his last message posted - not for him but for the wider public here that may get trapped with these senseless propaganda:
the video he posts here had already made rounds at the What's app a couple of years back when SKQ (tus) declared that he was appointed the 53rd Dai by both SMB (ra) and STS (ra). This video was following the Nass Drama perpetrated by the vicious kothar.

SKQ (tus) has always maintained that as he was instructed by SMB (ra), he did not disclose his appointment as the 53rd Dai prior to wafaat of SMB (ra). May be even his family was instructed of this secret after the wafaat of SMB (ra) or very close to, when things were seemingly getting out of control with the sons of SMB (ra). For me, this is something called wafadaari (to keep the amanat entrusted upon) ...
So with this logic Abdeali bs may not have been privy to the information. It is easy to give him a benefit of doubt on this topic. Why should we speculate on these events ?

No worries - end of my discourse / attempts to mend our friend Al-Noor.
I take your advise Br. Biradar : and stop breaking my head here :).

Fikr-e-duniya mein sar khapaata hoon
Main kahaan aur ye wabaal kahaan


صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ (2:18)

Fi AmanIllah

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#76

Unread post by Al-Noor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:23 pm


Salaams bhai Biradar and SBM,
Actually, I realized that. Initially I thought that there was a genuine quest for knowledge. So I spent time to respond his queries point by point. But then soon found out that the intention was just to spill out garbage on each and every post on this forum. I am not even sure if he even bothers to read the answers to his questions.
I am relatively new to this forum - started with giving him the benefit of doubt.

SKQ (tus) has always maintained that as he was instructed by SMB (ra)
too much lies for some one who qoutes Quran in every posts...

1) website fatemidawat.com was registered long back when MB was still alive.
2)drifting away from MS camp was well preplanned and not a sudden move, and whole KQ clan knew they are going to do this.
(if deal is failed)
{do you really think running away with kids by KQ daughters was sudden and not pre planned?} even US court realized this and they gave judgement in MS side.


there are many other lies which can be disclosed here, but just like you i will not waste my time on you, coz once a liar is always a liar....let the readers decide if they really want to chose KQ over MS or leave both dawedaar altogether....

and yes I have put this birader joker and munafiq SBM on ignore long back, so I am not sure what they are barking but it doesnt matters to me.

Fiamanillah
Last edited by Al-Noor on Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:58 pm, edited 11 times in total.

SBM
Posts: 6337
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#77

Unread post by SBM » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:25 pm

and yes I have put this birader joker on ignore long back, so I am not sure what he is barking but it doesnt matters to me. :roll:
And still this Ignore did read his post and did respond to it. Once a fool is always a fool

Ateka
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:26 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#78

Unread post by Ateka » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:34 pm

Salaam brother Wajid.
Ms and kq are birds of the same feather who are fighting for the gadi, throne, whatever, not to serve people, but for material gain. No matter how much you twist the truth, it is obvious to all who who are not blinded by the false propaganda of the kothar, since 51st proclaimed himself King/sultan.

Pasting this specially for you (thanks to ghulam bhai for the befitting quote)
HYPOCRISY is your religion and falsehood is your life, Your souls are freezing in the clutches of the priests and sorcerers, and your bodies tremble between the paws of despots and the shedders of blood.
-----Khalil Gibran.

Wajid wrote:Bhai Anajmi,
Well, it all boils down to your core conviction. We can agree to disagree ...
لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَ

Fi AmanIllah

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#79

Unread post by Al-Noor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:38 pm

SALAM BROTHER WAJID no hard feelings...

I am speculating based on past and present events and it is obvious things dont look normal and correct, and I might be wrong and I might be right (and If I am wrong may ALLAH forgive me), but my honest intention is to keep things transparent....and my dua is.

HAQ MUST TRUMP HIGH AND FALSEHOOD MUST PERISH.

EVERY THING BELONGS TO ALLAH AND WE WILL RETURN TO HIM. AMEEN.


Fiamanillah


anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#80

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:20 pm

And every thread must end with green shit.

Wajid
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#81

Unread post by Wajid » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:30 am

Salaams to all,
Noor bhai, no worries. Nothing personal here. I have been observing for some time now and see that this forum is more going on the lighter side tending towards gossip mongering. My small effort is to bring some meaningful dialogue.

I am an ordinary Dawoodi bohra (bi-hamdillah, I have my mental faculties still functioning - pun intended). I believe strongly in the Ismaili / Taiyabi / Dawoodi fiqh. Proud of our heritage, I gratefully admire / revere the sacrifices done by our ancestors and in particular Douats and Hududs that bring us where we are today. I am no way related to SKQ (tus) nor an insider as many would conveniently make this conclusion. I denounce any excess in religion especially in today’s society of ours that claims to be "forward and educated".
An-Nisa 4:171 ... يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth.

Ateka ben,
Coming to your comments in the above post - I beg to differ with. Here is my analysis of the situation,
I believe that our community has been hijacked by the ill intended malicious kothar for the past decades. SMB (ra) was perhaps fully or atleast partly aware of things happening behind his back but was unable to act. The force may have been so powerful that his only recourse could have been to trust in Allah.
For me, I repeat, Surah Yousuf has provided many answers to my concerns and opened me as an individual to better analyse the situation. I repeat some of my prior post here :

قَالَ بَلْ سَوَّلَتْ لَكُمْ أَنفُسُكُمْ أَمْرًا فَصَبْرٌ جَمِيلٌ عَسَى اللّهُ أَن يَأْتِيَنِي بِهِمْ جَمِيعًا إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ (12:83)
وَتَوَلَّى عَنْهُمْ وَقَالَ يَا أَسَفَى عَلَى يُوسُفَ وَابْيَضَّتْ عَيْنَاهُ مِنَ الْحُزْنِ فَهُوَ كَظِيمٌ (12:84)
قَالُواْ تَالله تَفْتَأُ تَذْكُرُ يُوسُفَ حَتَّى تَكُونَ حَرَضًا أَوْ تَكُونَ مِنَ الْهَالِكِينَ (12:85)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَشْكُو بَثِّي وَحُزْنِي إِلَى اللّهِ وَأَعْلَمُ مِنَ اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ (12:86)
83. Jacob said: "Nay, but ye have yourselves contrived a story (good enough) for you. So patience is most fitting (for me). Maybe Allah will bring them (back) all to me (in the end). For He is indeed full of knowledge and wisdom."
84. And he turned away from them, and said: "How great is my grief for Joseph!" And his eyes became white with sorrow, and he fell into silent melancholy.
85. They said: "By Allah. (never) wilt thou cease to remember Joseph until thou reach the last extremity of illness, or until thou die!"
86. He said: "I only complain of my distraction and anguish to Allah, and I know from Allah that which ye know not...


This clearly shows that Yaqoob (as) a strong patriarchal leader of a clan was helpless against his own sons vis a vis Yousuf.

Then there are many who would jump at a conclusion that SMB (ra) was a wrong and weak leader and did not do the needful to address the qualms of the community. But again, I seek the answers to similar situations in the Quran. Harun (as) was also accused of wrong. Today there are many (Christians / Jews) who claim that Harun sided with Samiri and others. However Quran gives him a clean chit ...

قَالَ يَا هَارُونُ مَا مَنَعَكَ إِذْ رَأَيْتَهُمْ ضَلُّوا (20:92)
أَلَّا تَتَّبِعَنِ أَفَعَصَيْتَ أَمْرِي (20:93)
قَالَ يَا ابْنَ أُمَّ لَا تَأْخُذْ بِلِحْيَتِي وَلَا بِرَأْسِي إِنِّي خَشِيتُ أَن تَقُولَ فَرَّقْتَ بَيْنَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَلَمْ تَرْقُبْ قَوْلِي (20:94)
92. (Moses) said: "O Aaron! what kept thee back, when thou sawest them going wrong,
93. "From following me? Didst thou then disobey my order?"
94. (Aaron) replied: "O son of my mother! Seize (me) not by my beard nor by (the hair of) my head! Truly I feared lest thou shouldst say, 'Thou has caused a division among the children of Israel, and thou didst not respect my word!'"


So often times, we miss the essential part while trying to rationalize every event and situation around us. In the end, as I always maintain "ALLAHU AALAM". Only Allah knows the Gaib (unseen) - none else.
Actions of Awliah of Allah cannot be always rationalized.

Now let is see where does our community lie today. We are at an important junction :

Junction 1 : MS and his cronies - I do not even consider this as a religion. There is nothing spiritual in this clan. Today, under the guise of following RITUALS, have lost the SPIRITUAL (lack the spirit). The came to power in the most dubious way and Inshallah will be knocked out in the most humiliating way.

Junction 2 : Progressives - the movement with all good intentions, I believe is at a status quo for the past few decades. A couple of generations have gone by and in the next couple of generations, I believe will phase out unless there is a drastic revival to the cause.

Junction 3 : SKQ (tus) rose up to the occasion and made a rightful claim of his appointment as a 53rd Dai. Sidelined and written off by the SMB (ra) sons & families and the Bohra masses for the past decades. All false accusations, character assassination etc. he endured patiently - an epitome of Tawakkal in Allah for me. Just like Yousuf bore injustices without complains or regret. He continued, for the past 2 decades, quietly his charity under the name of Zahra Hasanaat without even an ordinary bohra knowing about it.

So for one like me, who believes and wants to remain in the Fiqh, the ONLY viable Gravitation is to side with SKQ (tus) in his David vs Goliath fight against the tyranny of the Kothar.

I re-quote Allama Iqbal :
Qoum Mazhab Se Hai, Mazhab Jo Nahin, Tum Bhi Nahin
Jazb-e-Baham Jo Nahin, Mehfil-e-Anjum Bhi Nahin

Unto a nation faith is life, You lost your faith and fell,
When gravitation fails, must cease concourse celestial.


If not, the Earth of Allah is "waseeah". People may find peace blending with other faiths like our friend Anajmi. May Allah bless him ...

Anyways, I feel I have taken enough of your time, I you have endured reading my lecture.

Fi Amanillah and Wish you a Nice Weekend.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#82

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:00 pm

A good post from brother Wajid but he has misunderstood the story of prophet Yusuf (as). The story is his personal one. He was the one suffering at the hands of his brother. And his father who had to suffer with him. However, in the case of the bohras, the lives of an entire community are at stake. Life of the here and life of the hereafter. If, as bro Wajid claims that MS is wrong, then what happens to the 90% of the bohras who stand with bent backs and joint hands in front of him? They are all doomed. And who would be to blame for their fate? The dead Dai who couldn't speak out before dying?

Why did he do Nuss in secret? What was he afraid of? It wasn't just his life at stake. People claimed he was the ghaib na jannar. He should've seen this coming and done something to save the majority of the bohras who are now doomed, because of him, if we are to consider as SKQ to be on Haq. Which prophet of Allah doomed his own followers to save his own skin or to proclaim his own rights?

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#83

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:15 pm

unction 1 : MS and his cronies - I do not even consider this as a religion. There is nothing spiritual in this clan. Today, under the guise of following RITUALS, have lost the SPIRITUAL (lack the spirit). The came to power in the most dubious way and Inshallah will be knocked out in the most humiliating way.
The religion currently followed by the MS bohras is the same religion followed by the bohras under the previous Dai who is now dead. The same sajda tujhe wajib hai songs and madehs, the same ghano jivo naaras the same jamans, the same maatam mehfils, the same extravagance, the same rich cars and palkhis to carry the Dai around. Nothing is different from the times of SMB. The problem is not with MS, the problem was founded by the now dead Dai and his pre-decessor. They are the cause of the current shirk prevalent amongst the bohras and hiding behind the ghum of Imam Hussain.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#84

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:59 pm

I was just watching this movie called the big short and i by no means understand the financial system, but I think it is time the bohras bought credit default swaps against the bohra homes that the Dai has promised them in Jannah. That bubble is going to burst soon.

Wajid
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#85

Unread post by Wajid » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:15 pm

Salam bhai Anajmi,
Let me attempt to answer your points in the above post : I must first clarify that I am no Aalim e Deen, nor a Quranic Scholar. I am just an ordinary Dawood Bohra ...

For me, there is unbelievable similitude between the story of Yousuf (as) and SKQ (tus). Here is an analogy ...
Yousuf (as) and Yaqoob (as) both suffered at the hands of their own close kin. SKQ (tus) had the same suffering. Thrown out into oblivion, insults and degradation, slander, defamation, vilifying all this continued for a long time by all the Qasre Mawali. There was a post I remember by somebody (I believe an insider) with the title "Why do they hate Mazoon Saheb so much". Nobody has ever heard SKQ (tus) complain to anybody. SMB (ra) also in one of his bayans with pain and agony made an allusion to this - "mane badhi khabar pan koi divas bolo nathi ane bolis bhi nahi ... maro khudaj jane che ..." The words still echo in my ears.

Now to your question : What happens to 90% of bohras - is not my problem here. What happened to 90% or even 99% of Israelites who ran after Samiri eschewing Haroon (as). Would you blame Moosa (as) or Haroon (as) for that. Of-course not - Atleast here, you and I and all the Muslim Ummah are in agreement that Haroon (as) was innocent. Just because of the attestation in the Quran - or else we would also join Christians and Jews in conveniently putting the blame on Haroon (as) for his people gone astray.
The choice to accept HAQ is on the individual. Water flows pure from the sky - it all depends where it lands. In the gutter, it will become gutter or else it will be a source of life.
The safinah of Nooh (as) had some 80 odd people with him. So what. The numbers do not matter.

Then you bring another million dollar question : Why was the Nass secret ? I cannot speculate here. But with my little mind, I could make a little find on this question - again through Surah Yousuf (amazing, isn't it) ...
Yousuf (as) in his dream sees the sun, moon and 11 stars performing sajda before him. All the Islamic ummah are in accordance that this dream of Yousuf (as) signifies his vision of Nabouwat (Nass upon him). And 11 stars represent his 11 brothers.

إِذْ قَالَ يُوسُفُ لِأَبِيهِ يَا أَبتِ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ أَحَدَ عَشَرَ كَوْكَبًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ رَأَيْتُهُمْ لِي سَاجِدِينَ (12:4)
LO! [7] Thus spoke Joseph unto his father: "O my father! Behold, I saw [in a dream] eleven stars, as well as the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves before me!" - 12:4 (Asad)

However, what happens here - Yaqoob (as) asks Yousuf (as) to keep this Nass secret with the fear that his brothers might hurt him :
قَالَ يَا بُنَيَّ لاَ تَقْصُصْ رُؤْيَاكَ عَلَى إِخْوَتِكَ فَيَكِيدُواْ لَكَ كَيْدًا إِنَّ الشَّيْطَانَ لِلإِنسَانِ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ (12:5)
[Jacob] replied: "O my dear son! [8] Do not relate thy dream to thy brothers lest [out of envy] they devise an evil scheme against thee; verily, Satan is man's open foe! [9] - 12:5


So Why was the Nass kept secret - I do not want to draw any conclusions here.
However one thing can be sure. If SMB (ra) had openly declared Nass upon SKQ (tus), all these Qasre Mawali would have changed colors and flocked behind SKQ (tus) and continued to spread same filth in disguise. Just to promote their viscious agenda, they have already equated the Dai to the position of Allah Subhanahu (Naouzobillah). The only way to remove this "kachra" from the dawat was to keep the Nass secret. This is how I understand. The rest, again ALLAHU AALAM.

Concerning the house in Jannat :
hum ko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeqat lekin
dil ke Khush rakhney ko Ghalib ye Khayaal achhaa hai


Fi AmanIllah

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#86

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:27 pm

For me, there is unbelievable similitude between the story of Yousuf (as) and SKQ (tus). Here is an analogy ...
Yousuf (as) and Yaqoob (as) both suffered at the hands of their own close kin. SKQ (tus) had the same suffering. Thrown out into oblivion, insults and degradation, slander, defamation,
Dear Bro Wajid,

If you look into families, there is an example of this in pretty much every family. Every family has a vilified member. Some might begin to think themselves as Yusuf (as) but they are not. They simply need to learn the quality of patience from Yusuf (as). Suffering at the hands of your brothers doesn't make you Yusuf!!
Now to your question : What happens to 90% of bohras - is not my problem here.
I am sorry to hear that. When your own bohra brothers, who were going to heaven with you only a couple of years ago and are now doomed, is not your problem!! It's a pity. Now do you see the difference between SKQ and Yusuf (as)? Yusuf tried to save his brothers and SKQ doesn't think the 90% of the doomed bohras is his problem!!
However, what happens here - Yaqoob (as) asks Yousuf (as) to keep this Nass secret with the fear that his brothers might hurt him :
First of all, your definition of Nuss is weird. Depending upon the need of the hour it becomes as wide and narrow as possible. Anyway, this wasn't the same as your Nuss and anyone with a little bit of "aql" wouldn't make this comparison. Yusuf (as) did not have to reveal this secret "Nuss" at any time in front of anyone. The revelation of this "Nuss" manifested itself through his rise in power and through his wisdom in preserving the food stores of Egypt during the years of crisis.

I am sorry, but I do not want to go through the remaining ayahs you posted. It is similar to the postings of Al-ignoor where he took some ayah and declared himself Musa!!

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#87

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:19 pm

The point about numbers is invalid and quoted simply for the sake of convenience. Numbers dont matter. Even under SMB the bohras kept talking about themselves being right and that they were smaller in numbers. But now we know that a huge % of those small numbers have gone astray. The Alavis have been saying the same thing for decades that they are the ones with the right Dai and the numbers dont matter.

And the muslims are better than the jews and the christians because of the Quran which the bohras have replaced by some Natiqe Quran. Hence all bets are off. The Dai is just as open to blame as his abdes and there is going to be no revelation to vindicate him. He has to be judged based upon the Quran we have with us today, and things arent looking that good for either of these two in the light of the Quran.

Wajid
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#88

Unread post by Wajid » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:05 am

Anajmi bhai,
None of the ayahs I posted are loosely cited. It has been with thorough research and a lot of consideration before I pen it down here. Nor am I an alumni of any religious organization. It is through my personal research and sometimes intuitive feedback from my Quranic learnings.

However, I think this discussion between us would lead nowhere. It is becoming a bipolar situation. Our thoughts would never merge. You are a convinced Ahle Sunnah (Alhamdolillah for you) and I am a Shia / Ismaili / Taiyabi / Dawoodi !
It is better we depart here as friends on this topic. It was good of your to have provoked some meaningful discussion.

I would nevertheless seek the input of other forum members in all sincerity on my above posts.

Fi AmanIllah

Biradar
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#89

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:48 am

As Wajid has raised some points discussed in detail here before, I am present a previous post of mine below for those like him who are new. I hope to summarize the complete picture of what has happened (the schism, I mean) and outline some credible theory on why soon. For now, I want to add something which I have not addressed yet. Why was the Fatimidawat website registered before the death of SMB (RA)?

To understand this, one has to remember that the fitna against S. Qutbuddin has been going for decades. It was clear that there was no way the Iblisi Toli, led by Mr. Yusuf Najmuddin, and then Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin would accept the will of SMB (RA). Hence, preparations had to be made for what a forgone conclusion. Hence, the registration of the website, and other preparations. Perhaps I will elaborate further later.

My previous post

I have addressed the points raised by Adam and other Dawedar Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin (DMMS) followers many times. Yet, like weeds in a garden, they keep appearing again and again.

First, naas can be done both in private as well as public. There is no requirement that a da'i do naas in public or even among witnesses. Even if say there was no precedence of a da'i or Imam having done naas without witnesses, a da'i does not need precedence to act. In the case of S. Qutbuddin, the knowledge of the naas was widespread. For example, Sayedi Saaleh BS, the mukaasir of STS (RA) and SMB (RA) knew about it, so did many other people. In fact, it is likely that many people who, out of fear and greed, support DMMS, actually know about the naas, but choose to keep quite as they have lost the fear of Allah, and, instead, developed a lust for power and money.

The whole fitnat which has led to the current schism, is from the jealousy of the brothers of SMB (RA), who could not stand that first their father showered so much attention on their younger brother, and second, that the first act of SMB (RA) was to appoint S. Qutbuddin as his mazoon. I have elaborated on the roles of Yusuf Najmuddin, Aliasgar Kalimudin and others in this fitnat, and pointless repeating it again.

However, I should say one thing again, i.e. about credibility. In situations like this, one must ask oneself who to believe? The answer has two aspects to it. Trust and personal example.

First, one must trust the person in whom SMB (RA) has the utmost trust, despite all the machination and conspiracy of his brothers and children. A simple and incontestable proof of this is that SMB (RA) had a single mazoon for 50 years, his younger brother. This, despite previous precedence in which Sayedi Najm Khan was removed from the post of mazoon when malicious lies were spread by his enemies. Also, when Sayedi Saaleh BS died, SMB (RA) could have easily appointed DMMS as his mukaasir. He did not, and instead choose Mr. Hussain BS. One must reflect on why this was the case. Why would, 50 years ago, SMB (RA) appoint his youngest (but one) brother as mazoon, but then when his children were all grown up, he did not pick one of them for the position of mukaasir when it opened up? To those who do not realize this, DMMS is not much younger than S. Qutbuddin. He could have easily been chosen instead. Yet, SMB (RA), in his wisdom ignored him.

In addition, one must remember that the central figure of the Zaahir-Batin fitnat was none other than DMMS himself. A person who openly and without shame opposes his father and disrespected his father's appointed mazoon, can not be trusted at all. In fact, this person, i.e. DMMS and his fellow conspirators, were breaking their misaaq in which it is clearly stated that "Swear that you will not separate Zaahir and Baatin" (Zaahir aane baatin nee juuduh to nahi karo?) How can one trust a person who takes the misaaq, repeating this phrase and taking the name of the mazoon in the misaaq, and then in the very next hour, go and slander this very person! Obviously, there is no way in which this person can be trusted.

Second aspect of trust is personal example. In the last 50 years, we have seen the intense sabaar of S. Qutbuddin, even when he was slandered, abused, physically assaulted and even his life threatened by assassins three times. He was patient, almost superhumanly patient, and suffered these abuses, yet, in his intense and personal way, educated his children and others who came to him, gave them life advice and helped them in any way he could. Try imagining this. You are beset with dangerous conspiracies in which people are defaming you and even trying to kill you. Yet, you keep faith in Allah, be calm and keep performing noble and righteous actions. You never complain to anyone, knowing full well that the only true being who will listen to your haajaat is Allah, who you can beseech in your heart, without the intervention of humans.

To see whose footsteps S. Qutbuddin was following, one only needs to read the prayer of Imam Hussain on the battle field of Karbala (Aalhumma anta thiqati):

"Allah, you are my refuge in every calamity and my hope in every catastrophe. You, in every disaster that befalls me, are my refuge and preparation. In this great sorrow, my heart in enfeebled, my strategies have run out, friends have stepped back, and foes gloat. It is because of my faith in you that I have been targeted, and my complaint is to you alone. My petition is to you, none else. Deliver me and fend off the blow. You are the giver of every blessing, provider of every good thing, the ultimate one petitioned."

To contrast, we have all seen the terrible behavior of DMMS and his brothers and uncles. I already mentioned the Zaahir-Batin conspiracies above. We all saw how SMB (RA) was manipulated towards the end of his life, control snatched from him, and after the brain stroke, the things which transpired are truly sickening and frightening. They paraded their old father around like mannequin, stuffing his mouth with false teeth, and the poor man could not even close his lips to cover them! They forced him to sit on the taakath, and made him talk into the mike, and all that came out were moans and groans of an old man tortured by his own children! I mean, who does this to one's old father?! Yet, we saw DMMS do this, not once, but again and again, day after day.

Meanwhile, even before his father passed away, DMMS snatched power, and did unspeakable things. He encouraged people to rat our their own brothers and friends who, in weakness of the flesh, may be consuming alcohol or tobacco. He encouraged friends to spy on friends and report to the aamil those who were taking mortgages on their homes. In fact, the Qur'an itself prohibits this spying and geebaat in Q49:12:

"O believers, eschew much suspicion; some suspicion is a sin. And do not spy, neither backbite one another; would any of you like to eat the flesh of his brother dead? You would abominate it. And fear you God; assuredly God turns, and He is All-compassionate."

I mean, how come a person who claims to be the future da'i, give fatwaa which is exactly against the explicit prohibition of the Qur'an?! Additional examples can be produced, and are well documented here and elsewhere.

Hence, on one hand we have a man, a mazoon no less, who is quietly suffering injustices, never complained and kept showing the Straight Path by his actions, while on the other hand, we have a rebellious son, consumed by jealousy and by his actions showing the Path to Hell. Who will you believe in this situation? To normal, thinking persons the answer is clear.

I would like add a couple of more points: first, people like Adam (a pervert who sends sexual messages to women members of this forum, thereby showing his own lack of character) are experts at lying. They say that naas can be changed and that S. Hatim changed the naas from S. Ali bin Muhammad al-waalid to his own son, S. Ali bin Hatim. Actually, this is gross distortion of the truth. The reality is that S. Hatim had made the intention to do nass on S. Ali bin Muhammad, and, when S. Ali found out, urged S. Hatim to do naas on his (S. Hatim's) son instead. There was no change of naas. In fact, S. Ali bin Muhammad himself became the 5th da'i al-mutlaq. These liars also twist and manipulate the story of the fitnat of Suleiman. It was the personal amanuensis (letter writer and literary assistant) of S. Dawood bin Ajab Shah who produced a fake letter, and it was the children and wife of S. Dawood bin Ajab Shah who led the finat of Suleiman. Exactly as it is today! Many more examples can be adduced.

The desperation of DMMS can be seen in the non-stop laanat baazi and hatred they continue to display, despite having all the power and wealth in the world. Meanwhile, S. Qutbuddin is quietly doing his job, educating people by making available material openly, living in peace and quite without causing mayhem and chaos. As humanbeing said, it is clear, even to a blind person, where sabaar and taqwaa lie. No need to comment further.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics) - 2016

#90

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:57 am

Biradar,

Can you elaborate on what the "Zahir-Batin" fitnah is or was?