SKQ dialogue with California reform group

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babdeen
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:07 pm

SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#1

Unread post by babdeen » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:47 pm

Over last two plus years, we have worked with SKQ group to suggest and create united Bohra community. Our main goals were to set up accountable jamaats and eliminate abuses of power and looting of money from the community. Many of our other suggestions were adopted and included in Sijill. These included women's rights, following the true tenants of Islam, acknowledging other Muslim sects.

However, all issues relating accountability of money and local control of Jamaats were put on the back burners and ultimately rejected by SKQ. Another, sticky point was acknowledging the abuses during Dais Saifuddin and Burhaddin. They claim and support that Dai is infallible and therefore they can not do anything wrong. Lately, they seem to be aligned with Muffadal strategy on FGM. Neither will condemn FGM.
Both claimants continue to sell Jannat through Dai only concept.

Given the above, the reformist group out of California has suspended its effort with SKQ. In our opinion, SKQ tries to looks reformist in some areas and practices an agenda closer to real Islam. However, SKQ end goals are not different from SMS and therefore they are not likely to succeed. Additionally, we constantly hear that SKQ may abandon Dai claim for a monetary settlement. So, the wise course of action for reformist is to wait till the succession issue plays out in courts or these guys agree on how to divide the looted money over last 100 years..



Tayyeb
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:30 pm

#2

Unread post by Tayyeb » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:36 am

Salam Al dai ajal babdeen,

I have a suggestion for all reformist and all those who dont want to follow KQ and MS, but I am not sure if it is practical to adopt world wide, I am still writing the concept, I will soon post it here....

I hope you are receiving taeed from Imam just as MS and KQ are receiving.

Salaam in your hazarat aliya kudsaaniya.



New
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:49 pm

#3

Unread post by New » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:56 pm

Hello Babdeen
What is the CA Reform group? Does it have members from outside? Can you please shed the light?



seeker110
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#4

Unread post by seeker110 » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:58 pm

Haath pakri ney Bank ma lai jasay.



Humsafar
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#5

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:06 pm

babdeen,
Thank you very much for updating us on the outcome of your dialogue with the SKQ camp. As I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum, we reformists in India had also been stonewalled. Saifuddin Insaf and other reformist activists met with the SKQ's sons not long after the dispute started. They said they would implement some sort of accountability and would not force people to pay up etc. But on the issues of barat and misaaq they refused to budge, and they said the authority of the Dai was supreme, being dai ul mutlaq he cannot be challenged and his decisions were binding. On the autonomy of jamat too they were not very forthcoming and dilly dallied. I'm glad you raised the FGM issue with them, and of course they are not going to overturn it. It is part of Bohra tenet and all shades of orthodox bohras are out to defend it - be they MSM, SKQ or the Sheikh Ahemd Ali bandwagon of reformist bohras in Udaipur and Malegoan.
Reformists were disappointed with SKQ and the promise he had initially held out. As I've mentioned before, he is only marginally better that SMS and at least not a buffoon like him, which is saying a lot given the current scenario, but not much as far as reformist demands are concerned.



SBM
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#6

Unread post by SBM » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:30 pm

welcome back Br Humsafar. If only now Br AZ and Br Hussain KSA can come out of Purdah that will be Mojiza. :lol:



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#7

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:29 am

I had also raised queries with way of life in SKQ camp with some followers here, they were not answered. how are qadambosi, ziyafats, mafsusiyet, salaam najwa, ikraam iftetah, laagats work in SKQ camp and its related accountability.

SMS and SKQ cant be really different, breed from same family and been thought the same modus operandi. if SKQ was so holy, he would have raised his voice on various mismanagement in SMB camp a long time ago.

Spoilt with power and control, these guys are condemned in their own authority.



Tayyeb
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:30 pm

#8

Unread post by Tayyeb » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:47 am

jisne kabhi ek makkhi bhi apni mehnat se nahi mari woh kabhi taqleef aur mehnat samjh nahi sakta,

Imam Ali use to dig wells what for? for him self? no

just to keep himself humble and keep reminding that what is hardship.

SMB ke bhai/bhatije aur bete ayyashi mein itne busy hain ki inse koi khair ki ummeed karna fuzool hain.
Last edited by Tayyeb on Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tayyeb
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:30 pm

#9

Unread post by Tayyeb » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:48 am

Tayyeb wrote:jisne kabhi ek makkhi bhi apni mehnat se nahi mari woh kabhi taqleef aur mehnat samjh nahi sakta,

Imam Ali use to dig wells what for? for him self? no

just to keep himself humble and keep reminding that what is hardship.

SMB ke bhai/bhatije aur bete ayyashi mein itne busy hain ki inse koi khair ki ummeed karna fuzool hain.



Tayyeb
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:30 pm

#10

Unread post by Tayyeb » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:51 am

KQ followers thinks just because now KQ is resisting against MS he is courageous and on HAQ...

are bhai " ab rone se kyaa fayda jab chidiya chug gayi khet"

courage was supposed to be shown 20-30 years back. tab to aram se bunglow banaye, baccho ko US mein set kiyaa, ab jab lag raha hain dal nahi gal ne wali, acchanak IMAM ki taeed yaad aagaye bhai sahab ko.



dawedaar
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

#11

Unread post by dawedaar » Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:58 am

Dear Mr. keyboard activist.. it is easy to say all this from the comfort of your home/office...
Tayyeb wrote:
courage was supposed to be shown 20-30 years back. tab to aram se bunglow banaye, baccho ko US mein set kiyaa, ab jab lag raha hain dal nahi gal ne wali, acchanak IMAM ki taeed yaad aagaye bhai sahab ko.



Tayyeb
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:30 pm

#12

Unread post by Tayyeb » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:11 am

Dear Mr. keyboard activist.. it is easy to say all this from the comfort of your home/office...
I am neither mazoon or dai, nor I have followers, what all I can do is write up on internet so the message might go where it should go.

if you think I am wrong in what I said, feel free to correct. jo inhone boya hain wo kaant naa to padenga.



SBM
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#13

Unread post by SBM » Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:09 am

Br Dawedar
As for Tayyab aka Al Ignore
Empty Vessels make more noise---got my drift.



SBM
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#14

Unread post by SBM » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:44 pm

Br Babdeen
Keep us updated regarding the dialogue with SKQ camp. Do you know if SKQ will issue any FATWA on FGM like Tampa Jamaat did.



allbird
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

#15

Unread post by allbird » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:21 pm

When you people went to SKQ with an agenda, were you thinking he will be your YES men...? This people are brought up thinking there are true chosen one from Allah Subhanhu and on this planet earth they are Allah themselves. Even any Nabi, Rasullaha SAW, nor Imam claimed that but our own local surat born Dai's have done it.
The point is if SKQ manages to unify the Udaipur movement after 50 odd years then he will not only have more numbers but a mission which his father STS RA and SMB RA embarked upon was shown a daylight by their trusted lieutenant SKQ, and that would be a feather in his hat. The progressive jamaat should not give up so easily but try to find a middle path and come to conclusion. Don't think that SKQ is underdog and will be a YES man because he is desperate but this is an only opportunity and don't miss out. whether we are on right path of Islam or not but progressive movement has to come to an end sooner. Either you get converted to other firq or come back in, but cannot stay OUT and keep claiming we are IN.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#16

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:14 pm

Let's see.... You went to SKQ expecting him to accept your demands to change the 900 year old tradition of misaaq. To clarify again, you went to a religious leader asking him to compromise on what is the touchstone of his religion. He did not compromise on it and so you rejected him for it?!! I am not so sure that one wants a leader that flips flops on principles and negotiates on matters of faith like a two bit politician. If you want someone like that, you should go to MS. He will cut you any deal as long as it means more followers and more money in his pocket from inreased contributions.

I for one, am pleased for the Qutbis that SKQ did not sell out. More power to him! It proves his integrity to me even further.



canadian
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:57 pm

#17

Unread post by canadian » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:39 pm

^ ^
Bro. objectiveobserver53:

So based upon your argument, Christianity was in existence for more than six hundred years, then why follow this new religion of Islam? Similarly if slavery was practiced for hundreds of years, why abolish it? And if the misaaq (which makes you swear to be a slave of a mortal) has been in existence for more than 900 years, let’s continue to be slaves of these fake gurus.



seeker110
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#18

Unread post by seeker110 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:43 pm

Most of us reformists believe in the Good Samaritan Law. Something completely missing in STS blood.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#19

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:05 am

objectiveobserver53 wrote:I for one, am pleased for the Qutbis that SKQ did not sell out. More power to him! It proves his integrity to me even further.
Progressives demand were just and fair, infact SKQ not budging to the demand is a another proof that he leads a similar oppressive regime as his father and brother did. all this dramabaazi of being philanthropic and kher khuwaahi of munineen is a hogwash as his camp is in a smaller position with little leverage or economy of scale.

Misaaq as a ritual is a non issue, it is reduced to symbolic ceremony, just an opportunity to get some importance and squeeze some cash out of abdes, meanwhile the clueless abde can celebrate coming of age. misaaq would not hold any authority in court of law, given its terms and conditions and provisions of stigmatization, ostracization and lootmar. niether misaaq's conditions and restrictions are practiced by abde. they break the rules at drop of a hat and yet enjoy the community affiliation as long as they are not caught or pay up to these thugs.

SKQ refused to let go control over local jamat administration, ofcourse that is where the main moolah is at the grass root level. there are few who pay ziyafats and najwaas .. but there are millions to be collected & embezzled from subscription fees, hoobs and other many donations.

SKQ's denial to simple and honest suggestion of transparent governance shows he is same product in new packaging. these guys are addicted to ruling, they do not know or imagine a world without they being in power. spoilt and dependent on power mongering to make their life purposeful.

SKQ is a sell out just like other kotharies, a sell out to greed and lust for power and wordly comforts !



qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 996
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

#20

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:48 am

from what i heard from someone inside of kq camp is when negotiation started, kq sons had accepted in some way or other all demands of transparency and accountancy and said they are already doing it and would follow it, but as of now there is no institutionlised jammat to speak of. they had all agreed in priniciple for financial audit when jamaat comes in form and said they would also publish audit report.
now they are already doing it. the only thing they were not ready to budge from was dai-ul-mutlaq title as dai's position as sole head of community and misaaq. they said this was the basis of fatemi dawaat and hence cannot be changed at any cost, rest everything they were ready to discuss and negotiate, and the talk broke off on this point.
i cannot vouch about the authencity as i have only heard from an insider.
but if it is true , then reformist should try to give up little as dai and misaaq are just ritual to be followed. money matters most



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#21

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:27 am

bro QM

it is silly to discuss or negotiate over nomenclature and symbolic rituals, as Dai Al Mutlak and misaaq majlis kinda stuff. SKQ and SMS can have any title they wish, baadshah-e-bohra, Shehansah-e-fatemi etc etc. I mean who cares they keep giving fancy titles to self and each other any day !

meat of the discussion or moment of truth or when the rubber meets the road is the time when financial accountability comes into picture. anyone can give accounts of petty cash .. the real deal is accounting of every penny collected .. sabeel, hoobs, laagats, ziyafats, mafsusisyet, nikaahs, nisbats, iftetahs when millions in ikraam change hands.

also how about making people kiss thier feet (kadambosi), how about arbitary demands of voluntarily compulsory hoobs, unreasonable and unexplained taxes (laagats, iftetah, ikraams etc)

Raza system, which is lucidly used to corner people in paying up. Raza system has only one use, that is to control people. so lets get real, these are not some age old traditions, but a convenient power tools, without which these kothari thugs cannot have the power and rule over its abdes and enjoy fleecing them without an utter.

if SKQ is a shafeek bawa and his guidance filled with compassion, acceptance, humility and austerity, he would not haggle or worry over financial reporting, flattery rituals of kadambosi, talaqqi, kadam, salaamies, najwa and ikraams and absolute submission. absolute submission is only limited to moolah, one can do watever they please as long as they are filling the coffers and licking these kothari thugs in flattery and praise.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#22

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:29 am

canadian wrote:^ ^
Bro. objectiveobserver53:

So based upon your argument, Christianity was in existence for more than six hundred years, then why follow this new religion of Islam? Similarly if slavery was practiced for hundreds of years, why abolish it? And if the misaaq (which makes you swear to be a slave of a mortal) has been in existence for more than 900 years, let’s continue to be slaves of these fake gurus.
Canadian bhai. Accepting christianity or abolishing slavery is not the same as selling out on your faith.
A religious leader should never compromise on the tenets of his faith. Since misaaq/bayat is the foundation of shia faith I don't expect any shia leader worth his salt to compromise on it. As far as jamaat accountability, I am sure SKQ was open to that. Perhaps he was just not open to the audit of dawat-e-hadiyah funds. I don't see why he would not be open to audit of jamaat funds. I.E. if and when jamaats grow and have funds worth auditing!



Humsafar
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#23

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:25 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote: A religious leader should never compromise on the tenets of his faith. Since misaaq/bayat is the foundation of shia faith I don't expect any shia leader worth his salt to compromise on it. As far as jamaat accountability, I am sure SKQ was open to that. Perhaps he was just not open to the audit of dawat-e-hadiyah funds. I don't see why he would not be open to audit of jamaat funds. I.E. if and when jamaats grow and have funds worth auditing!
Reformists are not talking about the misaq that is the foundation of our faith. The misaq we are referring to is the distorted version of the original misaq which makes the Dai the master and Bohras his slaves, plus all the other shameful and unacceptable clauses. As it is the misaq is for the Imam and not the dai. Please refer to the many threads where this topic has been discussed threadbare.
And why would SKQ be not open to auditing of dawat-e-hadiyah funds? The funds belong to the community and is not his or his father's personal property.



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:18 pm

A religious leader should never compromise on the tenets of his faith.
Very true but does not apply to the bohra Dais. We are here because the Dais have compromised so much on the tenets of Islam that it is more idol worship now.



Biradar
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#25

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:42 pm

babdeen wrote:Over last two plus years, we have worked with SKQ group to suggest and create united Bohra community. Our main goals were to set up accountable jamaats and eliminate abuses of power and looting of money from the community. Many of our other suggestions were adopted and included in Sijill. These included women's rights, following the true tenants of Islam, acknowledging other Muslim sects.

However, all issues relating accountability of money and local control of Jamaats were put on the back burners and ultimately rejected by SKQ. Another, sticky point was acknowledging the abuses during Dais Saifuddin and Burhaddin. They claim and support that Dai is infallible and therefore they can not do anything wrong. Lately, they seem to be aligned with Muffadal strategy on FGM. Neither will condemn FGM.
Both claimants continue to sell Jannat through Dai only concept.

Given the above, the reformist group out of California has suspended its effort with SKQ. In our opinion, SKQ tries to looks reformist in some areas and practices an agenda closer to real Islam. However, SKQ end goals are not different from SMS and therefore they are not likely to succeed. Additionally, we constantly hear that SKQ may abandon Dai claim for a monetary settlement. So, the wise course of action for reformist is to wait till the succession issue plays out in courts or these guys agree on how to divide the looted money over last 100 years..
First, if you approached SKQ with the thought of trying to force him to accept your "demands", you are a bigger fool than I would credit you to be. Basic doctrinal points are not for negotiation. You talk about united bohra community. Its not possible any more. Most reformists, specially those closely aligned to the late Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj and his cheelas do not consider the chain of duaat to be legitimate beyond the 46th da'i. Hence, they simply can not be brought back into the fold unless they accept theirs is an erroneous belief and that they reject it. Its not going to happen. Just look at the foolish people like Badri Janab aka Doctor aka Mubarak and the people behind the TheBohras.com website.

Second, the question of accountability need not happen at the top-level. One needs to create a credible local model of governance first, making sure that your local organization is fully accountable. Its a mistake to think this will be a top-down approach. It needs to be a bottom up approach instead. So, even if SKQ, say, does not agree about publishing account details at present, the first step is to setup local jamaat structures which are transparent, open and available for inspection. One potential scenario would would be to continue to be religiously affiliated with SKQ, but conduct local business locally, without worrying about what happens at the top, at least at first. If you can show that such a model would work, then it would be a naturally attractive to others and to the top-level people also. A first step would be to have a very strong board of directors who are elected locally and are not accountable to the aamil. In fact, the aamil should be accountable to the BODs and should only be concerned with leading namaaz, conducting events etc. He should not be involved in any non-religious activities at all. If you can show that this would work, then things will change. Unfortunately, as we have repeated seen, bohras are a bunch of spineless cowards, who will bend and grovel in front of every two-dime aamil and their little kids. So this groveling needs to stop first. Show that this can be done.

Third, its a given that if you ask SKQ to accept atrocities committed during the time of STS or SMB were the fault of STS or SMB, its not going to happen. Its doomed to failure right at the start. One has to be more circumspect, and first try and understand the individuals involved, blame them and not in every single instance blame the da'i. Now, I am not saying that the da'i is infallible or blameless in these atrocities. However, its time to think more about the future and how one can recover some semblance of sanity in the system and not abandon it, or worse, take a "wait and watch" approach.

Finally, about things like FGM. There is a simple solution to this: just do not practice it! Thats all. There are many things the da'is and even prophet told us to do, but we conveniently ignore. Just ignore this too. Don't expect the leadership to say FGM is wrong. Its not going to happen any time soon, even though I would not say it is impossible. We already see that the leadership of MS are rationalizing making FGM illegal via ranking loyalty to the nation above practicing FGM. Hence, its possible that in the future new doctrinal developments will occur just abandoning this practice.

Incidentally: if one simultaneously makes fun of the da'i and then expects he will bend to one's "demands" you have set yourself up for failure on day one itself. For example, you have acted like a joker and now all of a sudden you are trying to "negotiate" with SKQ. Won't work. You wasted two years of your time.



Biradar
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#26

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:43 pm

Humsafar wrote:
objectiveobserver53 wrote: A religious leader should never compromise on the tenets of his faith. Since misaaq/bayat is the foundation of shia faith I don't expect any shia leader worth his salt to compromise on it. As far as jamaat accountability, I am sure SKQ was open to that. Perhaps he was just not open to the audit of dawat-e-hadiyah funds. I don't see why he would not be open to audit of jamaat funds. I.E. if and when jamaats grow and have funds worth auditing!
Reformists are not talking about the misaq that is the foundation of our faith. The misaq we are referring to is the distorted version of the original misaq which makes the Dai the master and Bohras his slaves, plus all the other shameful and unacceptable clauses. As it is the misaq is for the Imam and not the dai. Please refer to the many threads where this topic has been discussed threadbare.
Can you produce a side-by-side comparison of the "original" misaaq and the "distorted" version. Thanks.



Humsafar
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#27

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:16 pm

Biradar,

By asking for a side by side comparison you are implying that the misaq administered now is exactly the same as the one used in the time of the Imams?

As I suggested, if you had searched this site and forum you would have several references to the current misaq being doctored to serve the nefarious purposes of the dawat. Below are two links, and I'm sure you can find more. As for a definitive comparison between the old misaq and new misaq, we all progressive-minded Bohra who make a distinction between a simple oath of allegiance and a charter of slavery must get together and work on such analysis. It would be a worthwhile project to collaborate on.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/news/61/97/Mi ... e_comment/

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8319&p=149325&hilit ... xt#p149325



anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:39 pm

I never expected someone like Biradar, who is ready to question belief in Allah and his angels as being backwards, is behaiving like an abde apologist for the sake of SKQ.

The only misaq that matters is what all of mankind gave to the lord Almighty and is mentioned the Quran. The bohra misaq document isnt worth more than toilet paper when it comes to the tenets of Islam.

Second, non-bohra mosques have successfully implemented a bod and a non interfering imam. The model comes with its own challenges but at least they can push the reset btton every couple of years.

Third, asking the Amil to first becone accountable and then the dai is a ctach 22 situation. The Amil will never agree to be accountable unless the Dai does so first. And the Dai wont do that cause he wont be able to fill his pockets.



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#29

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:10 pm

Humsafar wrote:babdeen,
Thank you very much for updating us on the outcome of your dialogue with the SKQ camp. As I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum, we reformists in India had also been stonewalled. Saifuddin Insaf and other reformist activists met with the SKQ's sons not long after the dispute started. They said they would implement some sort of accountability and would not force people to pay up etc. But on the issues of barat and misaaq they refused to budge, and they said the authority of the Dai was supreme, being dai ul mutlaq he cannot be challenged and his decisions were binding. On the autonomy of jamat too they were not very forthcoming and dilly dallied. I'm glad you raised the FGM issue with them, and of course they are not going to overturn it. It is part of Bohra tenet and all shades of orthodox bohras are out to defend it - be they MSM, SKQ or the Sheikh Ahemd Ali bandwagon of reformist bohras in Udaipur and Malegoan.
Reformists were disappointed with SKQ and the promise he had initially held out. As I've mentioned before, he is only marginally better that SMS and at least not a buffoon like him, which is saying a lot given the current scenario, but not much as far as reformist demands are concerned.
2 observations come to mind:

1.) Sir babdeen: From what I remember of your previous posts, they were quite humourous and in jest. So the first simple question is: Is this thread started in jest, or is it really true that you met SKQ folks for discussions as mentioned above? So that we know if this is accurate or started as a joke :?:

2.) Assuming this is serious, above, brother Humsafar mentioned that they agreed not to force people and agree to some form of accountability. So which is it? They agreed to accountability, or not agree to it? And they mention accountability on their website. So did you ask them: How do you say this on the website and now not agree to it?



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#30

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:10 am

The very essence of accountability is lost in bohra community because we immune the top management from accountability, the local level amils and jamat started passing the buck saying the order-from-the-top or the money is going to the top. Go ask maula where money is spent and as per biradar logic, top management (DAI's offices) need not be accountable !

one can notice in dargaah gullaks there is a disclaimer that patron visiting the dargaah and placing cash in the gullaks, such cash collected is at the discretion of maula to use in whichever way he deems fit. I dont know if this clause, they can dodge accountability of funds collected in the gullaks, which by the way would be running in millions. an amount in surplus after maintenance cost. primarily, gullaks are to be placed in dargaahs to cover the maintenance cost of the shrine, now these dargaahs have become hotspot resorts and revenue collection centres.

another sense of accountability is morality of top office, how does one justify the excess, opulence and splurging by DAI and his cohorts. how is hunting for pleasure justified, how much money is spent by DAI's office in his personal investments. there has to be distinct legal separation of property ownership of common and personal properties. such as markaz, masjids and townhalls. this sole propreitorship has to be dissolved.

DAI's office should explicitly debunk ridiculous lies and deception of mojiza stories, not sit queitly and enjoy these superstitions taking seeds and roots in heart of fragile and gullible abde faiths.

Raza concept should be limited to voluntary action only, jamaat can lay down strict rules of compliance for fees and taxes that are charged. by no means jamat or dai's administration should withhold or humiliate access to civil facilities on sombre ocassion of death, muharram and ramadan and other majlises. try and keep the opulence to austere level.

if the intentions are right, humble and honest, the community affairs can be run smoothly. DAi and his administrators can have a decent, comfortable and respectful life without having to indulge in deception, coercion and political flattery. it is the greed, insecurity, lust for more and more power, wealth and ridiculous luxuries that drives these thugs to resort to squeezing more and more moolah and for that weave a complex system of obedience, submission and authority.

they want range rovers, mercedes, bmws, landcruisers, vintage cars, sea facing sprawling palaces, farmhouses, ranches, exclusive watches, chartered jets, customized modes of transport, paparazzi, a feel of celebrity, pomp, fanfare, flattery, security envoys, flashy cop cars. These wordly benchmarks to feel important, exclusive, special, superior, rare, unique ! at struggle of nothing ! just jazz (bol bachhan) ! Rova-jev-moos and rova-jevi-awaaz ! collect PHDs, without research and studies, grab positions they dont deserve or they dont qualify for. easy access to whatever they desire. what pride do these kothari thugs have, what can they claim other than free loading off springs of so called "royalty" on community.