SKQ dialogue with California reform group

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anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#31

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:25 am

Asking the bohra Dai to show respect for the community is like asking a rat to show respect for the cheese

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#32

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:56 pm

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: 2.) Assuming this is serious, above, brother Humsafar mentioned that they agreed not to force people and agree to some form of accountability. So which is it? They agreed to accountability, or not agree to it? And they mention accountability on their website. So did you ask them: How do you say this on the website and now not agree to it?
Sorry if I have created a confusion here, what I'm talking about is the dialogue we had with SKQ's camp in Mumbai. Babdeen is talking about the dialogue his team had with him in California. It is possible that they gave different answers. To us the talk of accountability was in very general terms, nothing concrete. They would not go into details.

As for for Biradar's comment that accountability should not start at the top is ridiculous. It can start nowhere else. His suggestions about jamats and collection is fine and that ought to happen, but the leader has to lead by example and set the tone of his administration. If SKQ is serious about accountability then he must first declare all his assets - all his monies and properties and the so called dawat e hadiya etc - and allow them be audited. He has acquired his wealth from nowhere but the community and it belongs to the community. If he is serious about accountability and doing the right thing he should dedicate his wealth for the service of the community. If he could do that bohras will flock to his side in droves and then he will not have to waste millions on the useless and self-serving court battle. Come to think of it, winning the hearts and faith of people is that simple. Show sincerity, be genuine and open, show that you really care for the people and their wellbeing - spiritual and otherwise. Making grand claims to daiship - no matter how authentic your claim - is not going to cut it. You just show up to be another tweedledee having it out with another tweedledum. Make a difference where it really matters. Does SKQ has the vision and will to do that?

Another thing, Birader says:
First, if you approached SKQ with the thought of trying to force him to accept your "demands"...
Although I was not party to the negotiation but I can be sure that no one was trying to "force" SKQ to accept reformist demands.

seeker110
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#33

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:59 pm

Talking to STS family is like: Jannat ki lalach mei zindagee ko jahannam guzarna hai.

Does Bhoraism cause unhappiness or unhappiness cause Bhoraism.

Fateh
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#34

Unread post by Fateh » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:51 pm

humanbeing wrote:The very essence of accountability is lost in bohra community because we immune the top management from accountability, the local level amils and jamat started passing the buck saying the order-from-the-top or the money is going to the top. Go ask maula where money is spent and as per biradar logic, top management (DAI's offices) need not be accountable !

one can notice in dargaah gullaks there is a disclaimer that patron visiting the dargaah and placing cash in the gullaks, such cash collected is at the discretion of maula to use in whichever way he deems fit. I dont know if this clause, they can dodge accountability of funds collected in the gullaks, which by the way would be running in millions. an amount in surplus after maintenance cost. primarily, gullaks are to be placed in dargaahs to cover the maintenance cost of the shrine, now these dargaahs have become hotspot resorts and revenue collection centres.

another sense of accountability is morality of top office, how does one justify the excess, opulence and splurging by DAI and his cohorts. how is hunting for pleasure justified, how much money is spent by DAI's office in his personal investments. there has to be distinct legal separation of property ownership of common and personal properties. such as markaz, masjids and townhalls. this sole propreitorship has to be dissolved.

DAI's office should explicitly debunk ridiculous lies and deception of mojiza stories, not sit queitly and enjoy these superstitions taking seeds and roots in heart of fragile and gullible abde faiths.

Raza concept should be limited to voluntary action only, jamaat can lay down strict rules of compliance for fees and taxes that are charged. by no means jamat or dai's administration should withhold or humiliate access to civil facilities on sombre ocassion of death, muharram and ramadan and other majlises. try and keep the opulence to austere level.

if the intentions are right, humble and honest, the community affairs can be run smoothly. DAi and his administrators can have a decent, comfortable and respectful life without having to indulge in deception, coercion and political flattery. it is the greed, insecurity, lust for more and more power, wealth and ridiculous luxuries that drives these thugs to resort to squeezing more and more moolah and for that weave a complex system of obedience, submission and authority.

they want range rovers, mercedes, bmws, landcruisers, vintage cars, sea facing sprawling palaces, farmhouses, ranches, exclusive watches, chartered jets, customized modes of transport, paparazzi, a feel of celebrity, pomp, fanfare, flattery, security envoys, flashy cop cars. These wordly benchmarks to feel important, exclusive, special, superior, rare, unique ! at struggle of nothing ! just jazz (bol bachhan) ! Rova-jev-moos and rova-jevi-awaaz ! collect PHDs, without research and studies, grab positions they dont deserve or they dont qualify for. easy access to whatever they desire. what pride do these kothari thugs have, what can they claim other than free loading off springs of so called "royalty" on community.
Well said bro HB.

alivasan
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 9:28 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#35

Unread post by alivasan » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:17 pm

The posts on this thread is making better sense to me comparitively.some senior reformist should articulate thoughts on next step for reform and publish to benefit for one and all.

seeker110
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#36

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:29 pm

Bhora sheep should stop the wolves from deciding "whats for lunch".

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#37

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:47 am

Humsafar wrote:
dal-chaval-palidu wrote: 2.) Assuming this is serious, above, brother Humsafar mentioned that they agreed not to force people and agree to some form of accountability. So which is it? They agreed to accountability, or not agree to it? And they mention accountability on their website. So did you ask them: How do you say this on the website and now not agree to it?
Sorry if I have created a confusion here, what I'm talking about is the dialogue we had with SKQ's camp in Mumbai. Babdeen is talking about the dialogue his team had with him in California. It is possible that they gave different answers. To us the talk of accountability was in very general terms, nothing concrete. They would not go into details.

As for for Biradar's comment that accountability should not start at the top is ridiculous. It can start nowhere else. His suggestions about jamats and collection is fine and that ought to happen, but the leader has to lead by example and set the tone of his administration. If SKQ is serious about accountability then he must first declare all his assets - all his monies and properties and the so called dawat e hadiya etc - and allow them be audited. He has acquired his wealth from nowhere but the community and it belongs to the community. If he is serious about accountability and doing the right thing he should dedicate his wealth for the service of the community. If he could do that bohras will flock to his side in droves and then he will not have to waste millions on the useless and self-serving court battle. Come to think of it, winning the hearts and faith of people is that simple. Show sincerity, be genuine and open, show that you really care for the people and their wellbeing - spiritual and otherwise. Making grand claims to daiship - no matter how authentic your claim - is not going to cut it. You just show up to be another tweedledee having it out with another tweedledum. Make a difference where it really matters. Does SKQ has the vision and will to do that?

Another thing, Birader says:
First, if you approached SKQ with the thought of trying to force him to accept your "demands"...
Although I was not party to the negotiation but I can be sure that no one was trying to "force" SKQ to accept reformist demands.
Brother Humsafar,

You did not create any confusion. I completely believe and accept that you all approached SKQ team in India and also accept your version of the events. I would be happy too if SKQ agreed to some of what you say - I don't have any idea what they will actually do.

As for brother Birader's comment, I agree with what others have said. If SKQ believes in any accountability, it has to start from the top. Even if he does not want to disclose his personal assets, at least there should be accounts of the community money given to him (like Zakat, but not any personal salaams done to him), and how it is used. There is no sense in saying: Others at the local level are accountable, but not at the top. That sounds hollow. Moulana Ali disclosed accounts in the biatul-mal, so why not others. Who was more trustworthy than Moulana Ali, but he did not say "Trust me, and no disclosure", so why not the current dai?

Finally, I believe you approached SKQ team in India, but I have to ask (sorry, don't mean to hurt anybody, just a simple question): Did Babdeen and team actually approach SKQ team in USA, or was his post in lighter vein like his other posts?

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#38

Unread post by SBM » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:28 am

Finally, I believe you approached SKQ team in India, but I have to ask (sorry, don't mean to hurt anybody, just a simple question): Did Babdeen and team actually approach SKQ team in USA, or was his post in lighter vein like his other posts?
Since Babdeen had directly approached SKQ team and had conversation so did some other member on this forum who are in touch with SKQ team directly ( SKQ team includes TaherBS-Abdeali BS and Hussain BS)

seeker110
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#39

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:03 pm

A man has to be pretty Unislamic to discuss the leadership issue with a known thief. A robber, who robs the Yateem, Ghareeb and miskeen. How ignorant one has to be, to forget the teachings of Rasool Allah and the Farmaan of Allah. In choosing this kind of man to lead our prayers.

I may be in the line of Jahaanam but I am positive this STS family will be way ahead of me.

Allah will be so pleased to hear our excuses on the day of judgement. I id it for the sake of my parents, so I can bury them in Bhora Qabrastan.

Why call this a religion, it is a club for the Gumrah and Misfits. Throw in some stupid people for good measure.

canadian
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#40

Unread post by canadian » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:50 pm

seeker110 wrote:Why call this a religion, it is a club for the Gumrah and Misfits. Throw in some stupid people for good measure.
Agreed 100%

allbird
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#41

Unread post by allbird » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:03 am

Yes agree 100% it is a social club where we pay membership fee to stay kosher

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#42

Unread post by SBM » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:24 am

we pay membership fee to stay kosher
If you have to pay membership then you are NOT kosher as it may be considered bribe .you can stay Halal not paying anything and grow spine to resist the coercion from everyone including family members to bring everyone to right path of Dawat

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#43

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:05 pm

We all know that our community has become a social club, and stating the obvious is not very enlightening. It has been made into a social club by the mafia clergy - another obvious fact. So what's to be done? Boot out the mafia clergy and bring the community back to its Islamic roots and traditions. Leaving it for other "Muslim" alternatives is not the solution.

Sufi monk
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:34 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#44

Unread post by Sufi monk » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:27 pm

Humsafar wrote:We all know that our community has become a social club, and stating the obvious is not very enlightening. It has been made into a social club by the mafia clergy - another obvious fact. So what's to be done? Boot out the mafia clergy and bring the community back to its Islamic roots and traditions. Leaving it for other "Muslim" alternatives is not the solution.
how to do that bro?

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#45

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:13 pm

Bohras have to rise up and challenge these thugs in every city, in every jamat nothing less will work. People are quick to blame the reform movement for failure but themselves will not a lift finger make a dent to this mighty and illegitimate syster. If we can do it in Uganda and Kenya in the 60s and if we can do it in Udaipur in the 70s and elsewhere later on in small, isolated pockets then it can be done again. How it can be done has been discussed umpteen times on this Forum. Bohras need to call the bluff of these white-clad mafia, stop paying them money, stop playing by their rules, stop being afraid of the amil and his chamchas, start telling them their religion and the tenets they tout are false, start launching court cases in every city and jamat to claim back their properties. Overwhelm with cases and strap them of cash - the only thing they care about and see how they would froth at the mouth in abject paralysis.

Of course, easier said than done, but no change is possible without people themselves wanting change. Change cannot be imposed from the outside, not by reformists who are outnumbered and out of money and out of luck (because no other Bohras who should know better would support them). But we have the guts, self-respect and free minds. And yes we do not give our hard-earned money to thieves. Every Bohra can be in that state freedom but they will have to fight for it. Organise and challenge. In numbers we will find strength, and the mightiest have fallen before the power of people. And these just two-bit thugs who can do no more than threaten and exploit people in the name of religion.

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#46

Unread post by SBM » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:36 am

^
I second Br Humsafar
Some examples how small group of Bohras from this forum made the differnce
1- After exposing their Ayash life style and excessive Ziyafats by Br GM, they stop posting pictures.
2-After Bohraji and many others who started "Poverty In Ahmedabad" and started helping people and exposing poverty in Abdes/Amtes, Goons started a Fostership scheme
3-After a loaded envelope was posted on this forum, it was removed by Goons
4-As many members on this forum started posting the pictures of Slave run website, they put the lock on it.
5- By his own commitment Br Oz exposed FGM in Australia and now the Kothari Masters are running scared and issuing Fatwas against their own teachings.
6-By few of the members who took upon themselves and writing letters to their elected officials and Media, the Houston Ashra Tamasha was very very subdued. No Glorification of SMS on stage by any Consul General or Elected officials from USA (atleast not posted on Slave website)
7- By informing Law Enforcement agencies in USA about Money Laundering and FGM, Kothari Shezadas are now scared to visit USA, when was the last time QAID CHOR visited USA or Idrees and his elks. Why did SMS cancelled his trip to San Antonio after performing Ashra in Houston and returned back very quickly.
So these are some of the changes this forum has brought but everyone has to have SPINE and do their job.
DONOT ASK WHAT REFORMIST CAN DO FOR YOU- ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO TO REFORM THE DAWAT.

Sufi monk
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:34 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#47

Unread post by Sufi monk » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:10 am

Humsafar wrote:Bohras have to rise up and challenge these thugs in every city, in every jamat nothing less will work. People are quick to blame the reform movement for failure but themselves will not a lift finger make a dent to this mighty and illegitimate syster. If we can do it in Uganda and Kenya in the 60s and if we can do it in Udaipur in the 70s and elsewhere later on in small, isolated pockets then it can be done again. How it can be done has been discussed umpteen times on this Forum. Bohras need to call the bluff of these white-clad mafia, stop paying them money, stop playing by their rules, stop being afraid of the amil and his chamchas, start telling them their religion and the tenets they tout are false, start launching court cases in every city and jamat to claim back their properties. Overwhelm with cases and strap them of cash - the only thing they care about and see how they would froth at the mouth in abject paralysis.

Of course, easier said than done, but no change is possible without people themselves wanting change. Change cannot be imposed from the outside, not by reformists who are outnumbered and out of money and out of luck (because no other Bohras who should know better would support them). But we have the guts, self-respect and free minds. And yes we do not give our hard-earned money to thieves. Every Bohra can be in that state freedom but they will have to fight for it. Organise and challenge. In numbers we will find strength, and the mightiest have fallen before the power of people. And these just two-bit thugs who can do no more than threaten and exploit people in the name of religion.
what I meant was how to wake up blind abdes to stand against kothar and stop paying them.

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#48

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:33 pm

Sufi monk wrote: what I meant was how to wake up blind abdes to stand against kothar and stop paying them.
For that my friend they will have to open their eyes and grow a spine. Nobody can do that for them.

Sufi monk
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:34 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#49

Unread post by Sufi monk » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:00 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Sufi monk wrote: what I meant was how to wake up blind abdes to stand against kothar and stop paying them.
For that my friend they will have to open their eyes and grow a spine. Nobody can do that for them.
thats not going to happen in near future, and all are not lucky to be in udaipur, so now for the rest of the people only viable option is quietly move to sunni or shia jamaat and restart all over again.

babdeen
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:07 pm

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#50

Unread post by babdeen » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:56 pm

I appreciate all the comments on this topic.
Our effort was based on creating a vibrant Bohra community based on Islam and recognizing a place for pious Dai.
Initially, SKQ promised a constitution and presented guiding principles. These were reasonable. They started recognizing
scholars from other Islamic sects and other religions in Sijill. They even adopted some of our suggestions on equality for
women, promoting higher education for all Bohras, and health initiatives. They even agreed to accounting and said we are not
in this for money. We believed there was a good chance to get started with these guy and keep reforming.

Unfortunately, they got diveretd by the court proceedings. Perhaps they felt that was priority instead of setting up and growing
parallel dawat.
Then we heard that they were negotiating an exit if the amount was right.
The arrival of Ashura diverted them to competing with the show in Houston. SKQ launched three shows - Mumbai, London and
San Jose. Low attendance in person and dwindling attendance on Internet as Moharram progressed created a panic for them.
During waez these guys started emulating SMB, which casts serious doubts about their intentions. To effectively compete, they
started selling Jannat if you grab the daman of SKQ and all Dais are infallible.

At the same time, the verbal commitment on local control of resources for local good except for small amount to center for
kothar costs started to change. Given the above, it no longer make sense to pursue them. We also believe the court proceeding
are not going well for them. It looks very likely that if they lose court case (no money), they will not survive. At that time they are
likely to take the deal SMB is offering to disappear.

Here are answers to your questions:
(1) It is a California group with some support from rest of USA, Canada, UAE, and India.
(2) The group members are engineers and doctors, mostly from Silicon Valley with deep pockets
(3) The carrot for SKQ was the vast resources of the group members to get centers started in USA and Europe.
(4) Finally, I posted on behalf of the group. Most of them are not on this site. This was not BAB Deen humor.

There will be no further updates on this topic.
Thank you and best regards, BAB Deen

Siddiqua
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:05 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#51

Unread post by Siddiqua » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:05 am

The fact of matter is Syedna Khuzema Qutbuddin AQ & Shahzada sahibs were very accommodative to each and every requests of reformist Bohras, but reforms want to run the religion per their personal will. They want to make their personal thoughts as the new rules of dawat.

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

SKQ dialogue

#52

Unread post by SBM » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:47 am

Siddiqua wrote:The fact of matter is Syedna Khuzema Qutbuddin AQ & Shahzada sahibs were very accommodative to each and every requests of reformist Bohras, but reforms want to run the religion per their personal will. They want to make their personal thoughts as the new rules of dawat.
Seems like you are insider, can you shade some light what the conversation between SKQ's son and Babdeen as well as Udaipur Jamaat and SKQ reps.
I am aware of the some of the requests made be Babdeen and OZ with SKQ rep in California and elsewhere. giving up religious authority by SKQ was NOT one of them but accountability and easing up on Misaq was part of discussion.
So again what is the position of SKQ on FGM and IDDAT as practiced by Amtes?

Ozdundee
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#53

Unread post by Ozdundee » Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:19 pm

Respected Sadiq and Babdeen

Can you please share the specific points put forward during the dialogue and responses. In principle of transparency and sincerity.

Any dialogue is good , walking away forever is unproductive. Strength and leadership is in creating change and unity and let's be accurate the Prophets made compromises , reforms eg from Adam AS to Muhammad SAW and hence we have concept of jurisprudence so the argument no change is incorrect.

At stake is not egos, identity , material but the future of the community. Modern society overall has flourished on freedom, accountability and equality.

DisillusionedDB
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:20 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#54

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:29 am

SBM wrote:^
I second Br Humsafar
Some examples how small group of Bohras from this forum made the differnce
1- After exposing their Ayash life style and excessive Ziyafats by Br GM, they stop posting pictures.
2-After Bohraji and many others who started "Poverty In Ahmedabad" and started helping people and exposing poverty in Abdes/Amtes, Goons started a Fostership scheme
3-After a loaded envelope was posted on this forum, it was removed by Goons
4-As many members on this forum started posting the pictures of Slave run website, they put the lock on it.
5- By his own commitment Br Oz exposed FGM in Australia and now the Kothari Masters are running scared and issuing Fatwas against their own teachings.
6-By few of the members who took upon themselves and writing letters to their elected officials and Media, the Houston Ashra Tamasha was very very subdued. No Glorification of SMS on stage by any Consul General or Elected officials from USA (atleast not posted on Slave website)
7- By informing Law Enforcement agencies in USA about Money Laundering and FGM, Kothari Shezadas are now scared to visit USA, when was the last time QAID CHOR visited USA or Idrees and his elks. Why did SMS cancelled his trip to San Antonio after performing Ashra in Houston and returned back very quickly.
8- By exposing all the gruesome game-hunting going on in the name of 'ajab shaan nu shikaar', one can very well notice the sudden disappearance of such pics from circulation.
So these are some of the changes this forum has brought but everyone has to have SPINE and do their job.
DONOT ASK WHAT REFORMIST CAN DO FOR YOU- ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO TO REFORM THE DAWAT.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#55

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:38 am

Thank you bhai Babdeen for the update on March 22nd. While I may not agree with all the things, I appreciate your reply.

As bhai Ozdundee says, it is not about individual egos, but about the future direction of the community. And I sense (I could be wrong, given that I only have what you wrote here to go by) some strong egos, and that would be sad, For example, saying :

(2) The group members are engineers and doctors, mostly from Silicon Valley with deep pockets
(3) The carrot for SKQ was the vast resources of the group members to get centers started in USA and Europe.

I believe you, and you may well be completely accurate, but it smacks of an undertone of: We are well-off people and we can have a lot of money and we can get you a lot of centers, so do what we are saying ....

I just hope that the tone was not along those lines. It should be along the lines of: The direction of the community is not right, how do we go in a better/different direction.

Please consider what brother Ozdundee says, that walking away forever is unproductive. And do not make the "perfect the enemy of the good".
---------------
Finally, to bhai Altaf: The only thing your link points to is the SKQ did not accept the NASS. Yes, that is understandable, as he does not think it was a correct NASS. Is there anything else that you are trying to convey?

babdeen
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:07 pm

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#56

Unread post by babdeen » Tue May 24, 2016 8:40 pm

Ozdundee wrote:Respected Sadiq and Babdeen

Can you please share the specific points put forward during the dialogue and responses. In principle of transparency and sincerity.

Any dialogue is good , walking away forever is unproductive. Strength and leadership is in creating change and unity and let's be accurate the Prophets made compromises , reforms eg from Adam AS to Muhammad SAW and hence we have concept of jurisprudence so the argument no change is incorrect.

At stake is not egos, identity , material but the future of the community. Modern society overall has flourished on freedom, accountability and equality.
During a year long conversations with SKQ camp, the group provided input on several topics. The initial response was SKQ dawat will prepare and put forward a constitution detailing the operation of dawat. It never arrived. However, bits and pieces were included in Sijill.
The issues which received good attention by SKQ camp were rights for women, education for all children, eliminating mandatory dues, eliminating barat, focus on Quran as key source and developing relations with other muslims sects.
Issues they stalled on were: set up proper accounting of local Jamaats with agreed up percentage to central operation, powers of Aamils vs. elected local committees, acknowledging past abuses under STS, SMB and creating advisory and elders committees to assist Dai on non-religious matters.
Two major proclamations were last straws: jannat through Dais only and all dais are Infallible and can not be criticized. Basically, STS and SMB were Dais and could not make mistakes. so, SKQ has nothing to ocrrect.
We have not walked away from them. They have been side tracked with SKQ illness, court case, SKQ death and Fakhruddin taking over. Taher Fakhruddin has returned to Bakersfield few days ago and plan is to reengage if he shows interest. My current thinking is, he has too much on his plate and needs time.

Dua for Momeen
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#57

Unread post by Dua for Momeen » Tue May 24, 2016 10:07 pm

acknowledging past abuses under STS,
this is most important, as long as they dont admit this, they are not moving forward. I am glad you put this point in your conversation.

Dua for Momeen.

Maqbool
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#58

Unread post by Maqbool » Wed May 25, 2016 4:30 am

To bring reform one should see ahed. Past is past, bygone.

Dua for Momeen
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#59

Unread post by Dua for Momeen » Wed May 25, 2016 7:45 am

Maqbool wrote:To bring reform one should see ahed. Past is past, bygone.
as long as mistakes are not acknowledged their fake titles of masoom and being always correct wont go, and after few years they will be back to their autocrats, it is very important to put them in their place.

yes past is past and gone and many died in state of mazloomiyat, only Allah will take accounts of them. and by the way if they are really open minded they should not have any problem in acknowledging mistakes.

Dua for Momeen.

hamhyd
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:09 am

Re: SKQ dialogue with California reform group

#60

Unread post by hamhyd » Wed May 25, 2016 8:37 am

Dua for Momeen wrote:
Maqbool wrote:To bring reform one should see ahed. Past is past, bygone.
as long as mistakes are not acknowledged their fake titles of masoom and being always correct wont go, and after few years they will be back to their autocrats, it is very important to put them in their place.

yes past is past and gone and many died in state of mazloomiyat, only Allah will take accounts of them. and by the way if they are really open minded they should not have any problem in acknowledging mistakes.

Dua for Momeen.
yes agree first they have to come out and accept the mistake done by there uncle, father, and grand father