Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Bohra spring
Posts: 1303
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#631

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:49 pm

During the 23 years of Muhammad's time as a prophet, the verses of the Quran were memorized as they were revealed, and about 42 scribes wrote the verses on different materials such as paper, cloth, bone fragments and leather.

In ancient times, literacy was a skill that few people had and Muhammad himself did not know how to read or write.

During the time of Caliph Abu Bakr, when 70 people who knew the Quran by heart (qari), were killed in the Battle of Yamama, Umar ibn al-Khattab became concerned and appealed to Abu Bakr in order to compile the Quran into a book.

Abu Bakr formed a delegation under the leadership of Zaid ibn Thabit, one of the leading scribes.


This delegation of 12 people, including famous figures such as Uthman ibn Affan, Ali ibn Abi Talib, Talha ibn Ubaydullah, Abdullah ibn Masood, Ubayy ibn Kab, Khalid ibn al-Walid, Hudhaifah and Saleem, came together in Umar's house and collected all the materials on which verses from the Quran were written.

In addition, the verses memorized by the companions were heard as well. Each of them was asked to show two witnesses for the verse they read.

Mushaf

Thus, all the verses of the Quran that describe the creation of the universe and people, judgment day, exemplary stories of the people who lived before and the beliefs, worship, morals and legal bases that believers should obey were collected together into a single-volume book. Each of the verses was taught by the archangel Gabriel and declared by Prophet Muhammad. The verse is the name given to each sentence of the Quran and the surah is the name given to each part of the holy book. There are 6,236 verses, 114 surahs and about 323,000 letters in the Quran.


Saeed ibn al-Aas, who was renowned for the beauty of his handwriting, wrote them down on gazelle skin. The writing used was the Arabic script of the time, which was already old and used commonly at that time in Hejaz.

The companions reached a consensus that this writing, which was used by Prophet Ismail in Hejaz, is the writing of Muslims.

The copy of the Quran was recited to the companions at a general meeting. There was no objection. So, a book called "mushaf" emerged, which means written verses.

A total of 33,000 companions agreed that every letter of the Quran was in the right place. Then this mushaf was sent to Umar ibn al-Khattab. After his death, this book passed on to Hazrat Hafsah, the daughter of Umar and a wife of Prophet Muhammad.

Dialect of Quraysh

A difference was observed in the recitation of the Quran in the Armenia battles between Muslims from Damascus and Iraq during the period of the third caliph, Uthman.

Hudhaifah, one of the companions, went before the caliph on his way back from an expedition and asked him to prevent this.


On the 25th year of the hijra (647), Uthman gathered a delegation attended by Abdullah ibn al-Zubair, Saeed ibn al-Aas and Abd al-Rahman ibn Harith under the leadership of Zaid ibn Thabit. All of them, except for Zaid, were from Quraysh. Uthman said that the dialect of Quraysh should be preferred if they were to fall into conflict with Zaid regarding the dialect, since Muhammad was from the Quraysh tribe. The Quran had been revealed in seven dialects of the Arabic language of the time.

The first Muslims who were literate could easily read the writing of their own language, but somewhat differently, since at the time the Arabic script did not have diacritical marks to differentiate letters or vowel symbols.

For example, those from the Tameem tribe pronounced the letter "sin" as "te" and read the word "nas" as "nat." It was diverse and convenient, and did not change the meaning.

The delegation brought the original mushaf from Hafsah. In this mushaf, the surahs were not separated from each other. The surahs were sorted according to the order of their descent in Ali's manuscript and according to their lengths in the manuscript of Abdullah ibn Masood.


Now the verses were written in the Quraysh dialect. The surahs were arranged in rows, separated from each other regarding their length and alignment with each other. The order of the surahs was not based on the order the archangel Gabriel gave them to Prophet Muhammad, but on the consensus of the companions.

Seven copies

The old copies were destroyed to prevent future conflicts. Because of this, there are some Shia sects that accusing Uthman of changing the Quran.

From the new copy, some mushafs were also written on parchment and sent to different places such as Bahrain, Damascus, Basra, Kufa, Yemen and Mecca, accompanied by a qari. There are also rumors that copies were sent to Egypt and Jazeera.

The copy that stayed with the caliph was called al-Mushaf al-Imam (the head mushaf). There is no difference between the mushafs recited around the world today since they were all copied from original copies.

Thus, the Quran was written during Muhammad's lifetime, while its compilation was done during the caliphate of Abu Bakr and it was copied during the caliphate of Uthman.

Uthman also established special schools for the correct recitation and writing of the Quran. During the caliphate of Ali, saw the introduction of diacritical marks. During the time of Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik, vowel marks were also added.

bohra_manus
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#632

Unread post by bohra_manus » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:47 pm

Great Info Br Bohra Spring.
Jazkallah!

Qadir
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#633

Unread post by Qadir » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:58 am

Bohra spring wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:03 pm
About a 2 year old Imam. How could he have communicated theology at that tender age. If he spoke to his Diai. How do you know for sure Imam spoke or Diai spoke.

My point the only book and knowledge that is protected is Quran it says it and is tested, and evidence remains . I believe it's the communication to Prophet SAW. Anything else is manmade. If one wants to believe so be it. If not so be it.

Now 1000 years later Diai want to innovate and add spice stretch the stories so people enjoy bayan and keep going from one place of the planet to another holding hands go for it. That's for you guys.

My issue is the Prophet SAW did not ask me directly to worship some scholarly dude SMS or STF . I believe if his grandson gave his life for the honor of his prophet saw. He too would be horrified what later Imams, Khalifa Diai, Ulema, Ayatollahs have done to Islam. I would go as far as some of our belief are worse than what Yazid would have done to contaminate Islam if he was successful.
In Surah Maryam, Allah mentions that Yahya Nabi was given the wisdom of theology from childhood.

The dawat na kitabo are not fabrication like you believe. Maybe its just that you are so full of hasad that you are getting away from Iman.

kseeker
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#634

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:33 am

Bohra spring wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:49 pm
During the 23 years of Muhammad's time as a prophet, the verses of the Quran were memorized as they were revealed, and about 42 scribes wrote the verses on different materials such as paper, cloth, bone fragments and leather.

In ancient times, literacy was a skill that few people had and Muhammad himself did not know how to read or write.

During the time of Caliph Abu Bakr, when 70 people who knew the Quran by heart (qari), were killed in the Battle of Yamama, Umar ibn al-Khattab became concerned and appealed to Abu Bakr in order to compile the Quran into a book.

Abu Bakr formed a delegation under the leadership of Zaid ibn Thabit, one of the leading scribes.


This delegation of 12 people, including famous figures such as Uthman ibn Affan, Ali ibn Abi Talib, Talha ibn Ubaydullah, Abdullah ibn Masood, Ubayy ibn Kab, Khalid ibn al-Walid, Hudhaifah and Saleem, came together in Umar's house and collected all the materials on which verses from the Quran were written.

In addition, the verses memorized by the companions were heard as well. Each of them was asked to show two witnesses for the verse they read.

Mushaf

Thus, all the verses of the Quran that describe the creation of the universe and people, judgment day, exemplary stories of the people who lived before and the beliefs, worship, morals and legal bases that believers should obey were collected together into a single-volume book. Each of the verses was taught by the archangel Gabriel and declared by Prophet Muhammad. The verse is the name given to each sentence of the Quran and the surah is the name given to each part of the holy book. There are 6,236 verses, 114 surahs and about 323,000 letters in the Quran.


Saeed ibn al-Aas, who was renowned for the beauty of his handwriting, wrote them down on gazelle skin. The writing used was the Arabic script of the time, which was already old and used commonly at that time in Hejaz.

The companions reached a consensus that this writing, which was used by Prophet Ismail in Hejaz, is the writing of Muslims.

The copy of the Quran was recited to the companions at a general meeting. There was no objection. So, a book called "mushaf" emerged, which means written verses.

A total of 33,000 companions agreed that every letter of the Quran was in the right place. Then this mushaf was sent to Umar ibn al-Khattab. After his death, this book passed on to Hazrat Hafsah, the daughter of Umar and a wife of Prophet Muhammad.

Dialect of Quraysh

A difference was observed in the recitation of the Quran in the Armenia battles between Muslims from Damascus and Iraq during the period of the third caliph, Uthman.

Hudhaifah, one of the companions, went before the caliph on his way back from an expedition and asked him to prevent this.


On the 25th year of the hijra (647), Uthman gathered a delegation attended by Abdullah ibn al-Zubair, Saeed ibn al-Aas and Abd al-Rahman ibn Harith under the leadership of Zaid ibn Thabit. All of them, except for Zaid, were from Quraysh. Uthman said that the dialect of Quraysh should be preferred if they were to fall into conflict with Zaid regarding the dialect, since Muhammad was from the Quraysh tribe. The Quran had been revealed in seven dialects of the Arabic language of the time.

The first Muslims who were literate could easily read the writing of their own language, but somewhat differently, since at the time the Arabic script did not have diacritical marks to differentiate letters or vowel symbols.

For example, those from the Tameem tribe pronounced the letter "sin" as "te" and read the word "nas" as "nat." It was diverse and convenient, and did not change the meaning.

The delegation brought the original mushaf from Hafsah. In this mushaf, the surahs were not separated from each other. The surahs were sorted according to the order of their descent in Ali's manuscript and according to their lengths in the manuscript of Abdullah ibn Masood.


Now the verses were written in the Quraysh dialect. The surahs were arranged in rows, separated from each other regarding their length and alignment with each other. The order of the surahs was not based on the order the archangel Gabriel gave them to Prophet Muhammad, but on the consensus of the companions.

Seven copies

The old copies were destroyed to prevent future conflicts. Because of this, there are some Shia sects that accusing Uthman of changing the Quran.

From the new copy, some mushafs were also written on parchment and sent to different places such as Bahrain, Damascus, Basra, Kufa, Yemen and Mecca, accompanied by a qari. There are also rumors that copies were sent to Egypt and Jazeera.

The copy that stayed with the caliph was called al-Mushaf al-Imam (the head mushaf). There is no difference between the mushafs recited around the world today since they were all copied from original copies.

Thus, the Quran was written during Muhammad's lifetime, while its compilation was done during the caliphate of Abu Bakr and it was copied during the caliphate of Uthman.

Uthman also established special schools for the correct recitation and writing of the Quran. During the caliphate of Ali, saw the introduction of diacritical marks. During the time of Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik, vowel marks were also added.
When you copy paste someone's work, please give them credit or put the link of the article you copy from:

Code: Select all

https://www.dailysabah.com/feature/2017/06/02/history-of-the-compilation-of-quran

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#635

Unread post by momeenbhai » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:46 am

True. Muffy should also give credit for topi and dhadhi and rida to Muhammed saw and should not portrait that he is the one who is commending it.

Muffy should take name of ALLAH and MUHAMMED more often than the name of his father and grandfather to give credits.

it should be Rasulullah naa farmaan and not Muffy naa farmaan for implementation of shariyah.

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#636

Unread post by momeenbhai » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:19 am

3 idiots of KQ who thinks haq ni dawat is baap ki jaagir and they have all rights to distribute it amount themself.


[DELETED][
Attachments
2019-10-23_15-48_fatemi dawat.jpg

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#637

Unread post by momeenbhai » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:20 am


dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#638

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:16 pm

STF, in his milad waiz, in the last 1 minute (Go to about 40.2 minutes) referred to the current situation (halaat) in India and prayed for peace and security for all muslims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOtzTeFDd8M

I think that is nice. Wanted to point it out here.

SBM
Posts: 6271
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#639

Unread post by SBM » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:24 pm


RedBox
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#640

Unread post by RedBox » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:45 pm

I could write few things here, but since she is mother I dont want to point out what went wrong and how it was wrong. any ways.

Mkenya
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#641

Unread post by Mkenya » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:58 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote:
STF, in his milad waiz, in the last 1 minute (Go to about 40.2 minutes) referred to the current situation (halaat) in India and prayed for peace and security for all muslims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOtzTeFDd8M
I think that is nice. Wanted to point it out here.

STF, like many Muslim leaders, is being diplomatic. These are trying times for minorities in India and let us hope that saner heads would prevail.

SBM
Posts: 6271
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#642

Unread post by SBM » Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:51 pm

RedBox wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:45 pm
I could write few things here, but since she is mother I dont want to point out what went wrong and how it was wrong. any ways.
That has never stopped Abdes/Amtes sending LAANAAT and use foul language in the past

Saif53
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:39 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#643

Unread post by Saif53 » Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:27 am

SBM wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:24 pm
Arwa Qutbuddin on Parenting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuPwo0ZeIM
Qutbi Bohra comments on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuPwo0ZeIM
Arwa Qutbuddin is twisting the truth and fails to mention the following facts:

1. She claims the children are victims of parental alienation, when in fact, she is the one who abducted her children during their grandfather's funeral. She chose this exact moment to kidnap them, very well knowing that the entire family was occupied in mourning and funeral rites. It was she that alienated the children from their father, and prevented them from contacting him.

2. She claims the children's father brainwashed the kids, when in fact, just after the kidnapping, she forced her young son to issue a statement on YouTube pledging allegiance to her father.

3. She took the children to Bakersfield USA and locked them up in her brother's house. Here, they were under house arrest, physically and emotionally abused by her brother Taher Fakhruddin (aka Taher Qutbuddin). They were even denied basic food and sanitation.

4. She claims the courts rejected her and didn't support her position. When in fact, the USA and Indian courts offered her a lengthy court trial and looked into all aspects of the case and offered judgements in favour of the father and the wishes of the children.

5. The court even went on further to say that, the "[c]ourt does not find Petitioner credible". In other words, Arwa Qutbuddin a pathological liar who misused the legal and immigration systems of USA and India and suffered the consequences.

RedBox
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#644

Unread post by RedBox » Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:19 am

Valid points I was going to write the same. kidnaping kids without father consent just for the sake of belief is wrong on so many levels. Imagine if the father was some poor guy he would not be able to see his kids all his life.

SBM
Posts: 6271
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#645

Unread post by SBM » Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:00 pm

"She claims the children's father brainwashed the kids,"
Over 100,00 Abdes and Amtes are already brainwashed, so why it is not possible to brainwash young children?
"She took the children to Bakersfield USA and locked them up in her brother's house."
I donot know if you reside in USA or India because if the children are locked up in the house and some one files a complains, the Dept of Children and Families take over the children and put them Foster Care. I am sure if children were locked up, Muffaddali Goons would have called up DCF would have taken custody of them
"Arwa Qutbuddin a pathological liar who misused the legal"
It runs in the genes of the family. Look at the abuse of legal system in Nass Case as well Galla case through out STS reign

Bohra spring
Posts: 1303
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#646

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:46 am

STF appointing his brothers to 2 other positions and his sister lying in court destroying all credibility.

Reformists only support STF because he is a useful threat to SMS.

Mkenya
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#647

Unread post by Mkenya » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:41 am

SMS and STF are both different sides of the same alloy coin.

Bohra Spring: I like your choice of the phrase: "useful threat". A threat Reformists believe will someday translate into .....?

Biradar
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#648

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:07 pm

Some people, ignorant of history (and everything else that really matters), do not realize that the position of da'i al-mutlaq and mazoon and muqasir usually have remained in very few families for long periods of time. For example, before the dawaat moved to India all 23 of the da'is in Yemen were from just three families. The first India da'i (24th da'i al-mutlaq) was S. Yusuf b. Sulayman. Before him the three families that produced all other duat mutlaqeen are:
  • The al-Wadi'i family. The 1st da'i (S Dhu'ayb bin Musa); the 6th (S Ali b. Hanzala); the 10th (Ali b. Husan b. Ali)
  • The al-Hamidi family. The 2nd da'i (S. Ibrahim) and his son the 3rd da'i (S. Hatim) and his (S. Hatim's) son the 4th da'i (S. Ali b. Hatim)
  • The Banu'l-Walid family supplied all the remaining da'is in Yemen. The first in this chain was the 5th da'i S. Ali b. Muhammad and includes one of the most prolific of authors, S. Idris Imad al-Din who wrote extensively on history, haqqaiq and other topics.
Hence, it is not unusual at all that the da'i's position remains in a single family for long periods of time. It is actually rather natural. After all, close proximity means that the education of the future da'i can be undertaken in a more intensive manner. Of course, often from the children of a particular da'i no one may be suitable and hence the da'i's position then shifts to another family. However, the appointment of one's brothers, children or nephews to the da'i's position is not at all unusual.

Also, except in exceptional situations, when a person is appointed a da'i, his ancestors are already very closely associated with the dawaat, performing service for perhaps even several generations. It almost never happens that some random person is selected to succeed to this high post. Even the first da'i, S. Dhu'ayb bin Musa, came from a highly distinguished family of leaders who were critical to the sustenance of the dawaat in Egypt as well as Yemen.

Biradar
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#649

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:39 pm

I find it interesting that people here assume that Arwa Qutbuddin was lying. Frankly, it smacks of misogyny and sexism. I am not surprised, though, as some Bohra men are very sexist. One can't expect any better from them, though one would think that at least a few folks here would not be such. The reality, though, is the opposite. Muffi's Iblisi Toli has brainwashed the kids, parading them in public, making them denounce their mother, uncles and grandfather in public, curse them and completely turn them against their own kin. It is also likely that the marriage was not a happy one, as Muffy was always opposing his own father and machinating against his father's mazoon for 50 years. This must have spilled over in Arwa Qutbuddin's marriage also. By all accounts, Muffy's boys are even more insane than him. In any case, let her deal with her grief in her own way.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#650

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:40 pm

SBM wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:24 pm
Arwa Qutbuddin on Parenting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuPwo0ZeIM
Now that this TED talk has 12000+ views, and comments are allowed on this TED talk, one can see some of the criticisms, and sadly, the hate messages that she has got. And there are some messages of support too.

My opinion is that she/FD made mistakes, but the other side is making a mistake too. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the status of mother in Islam is so clear (from the sayings of the Prophet, PBUH), that this approach that the other side is taking is wrong.

Just my observation

Bohra spring
Posts: 1303
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#651

Unread post by Bohra spring » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:48 am

Useful in sense he is doing the heavy lifting to get under SMS skin.

That weakens SMS, in 2 years sms had to take a big u turn, and bring crazy innovation around drip feeding the tawil , uplifting schemes, stop barat for small things

Not that they make any useful improvement, point is forced SMS to think and respond to counter any iota rise of STF followers.

STF may not have loyal supporters , but has blunted the metoric rise of SMS.

He has caused significant damage to Sayedna brand. World of non Bohras knows STF is a contender and SMS may have majority but not 100%. Ouch that must be painful. A concept that classical reformists failed to create.

The PDB carried on with approach that they are not against Sayedna just his administration, they were not direct. While SKQ and STF sent a direct missile hit. That createa a status of doubt in many minds SMS is illegitimate. SMS sees STF as bigger threat than PDB or FGM.

SMS dodged the FGM spectacle big time. Loss in Australia, win in USA and India is long way away.it though destroyed Bohra brand in public domain as that caring innocent community into a creepy community. But Bohra women did not riot or revolt.

Now SMS camp is hosing that down by spending big on marketing and publicity to keep its majority. Surprisingly it works like cigarette or kfc promo.

Furthermore STF camp dont have a know how or capacity to manage a sophisticated 1 million cult. See example of Iraq. How to replace thousands of kothar and ayans worldwide who dont undermine new regime.
Mkenya wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:41 am
SMS and STF are both different sides of the same alloy coin.

Bohra Spring: I like your choice of the phrase: "useful threat". A threat Reformists believe will someday translate into .....?

MohammedG
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#652

Unread post by MohammedG » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:52 am

Where is God - Majalis al Hikma series

https://youtu.be/RLbkzhxqsDs

[youtube]http://youtu.be/RLbkzhxqsDs[/youtube]

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#653

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:01 am

The videos - particularly in English, are truly excellent! I socialized it on WhatsApp and have received rave feedback. All the arguments in our texts for the existence of God, starting with the Quran, are neatly summarized. As always, STF’s command of the topic and the languages is quite evident.

Biradar
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#654

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:13 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:01 am
The videos - particularly in English, are truly excellent! I socialized it on WhatsApp and have received rave feedback. All the arguments in our texts for the existence of God, starting with the Quran, are neatly summarized. As always, STF’s command of the topic and the languages is quite evident.
My friend, I know you are a fanboy, but really, please calm down with your childish and immature praise. Let's see what STF actually said in this Majlis of "hikma". In reality, his points can be boiled down to two things:
  • God is beyond comprehension
  • The proof that a Creator exists is that creation exists
He simply repeated these statements in several different combinations for the duration of his lecture. STF also seems strangely obsessed with having "conviction". He seems to think that having conviction that one has the truth is important. He seems annoyed about people who express doubts about the "Big Questions". He also brought up this point about conviction in his waaz on his father's urus. However, he fails to understand that one can be completely convinced of something completely false! The reality is that cautious skepticism is better as it allows you to continue to search for the truth than conviction that one already has all the truth, as the latter induces a sleep of centuries while the world passes you by.

To see this sleep of centuries, let us examine the "proofs" of God's existence which STF gave. (Actually he only gave one proof, that too not very fleshed out). As he himself admitted, he based his proof on one given by the great Ancient Master, Sayedna Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani as outlined in his treatise called "al-Masabih fi ithbat al-imama" (Book of Lights to Shine/Illuminate the proof of Imamat". The word "bi masabiha" occurs in the Qur'an in the Surah Al-Mulk, verse 5). STF only mentioned this work by the word "Masabih" and did not elaborate further, but this was the book he was referring too.

In this book S. al-Kirmani attempts to prove the imammat of Imam Hakim. However, in the beginning of the book in an early chapter (on the "Second Masabih") he gives seven demonstrations for the existence of a Creator. These demonstrations would be hard to reproduce here as they are somewhat convoluted but in essence they fall under the category of "argument from design". That is, we see design in the universe (movement, arrangement/composition etc) and so there must be someone that must cause this movement, arrangement/composition etc. He also gives the argument that as creation exists and could not have created itself there must be a creator.

Now, all this is fine. However, as one may know, al-Kirmani made these arguments centuries ago. Clearly, humanity has moved on from those times and we now understand much more about the nature of the universe and the reason for the things we see around us. On the FD website they claim "Syedna will answer the questions of today, ...". Well, if he wants to answer the questions of today he should engage in modern cosmology and physics and not regurgitate (incompletely and without depth) arguments made by Ancient Masters, however exalted and prominent they may have been. Clearly, the centuries have passed these people by and they have not even noticed!

In reality, most of these proofs of god are unconvincing. For example, S. Kirmani states in the beginning of his "Second Masabih" that as god has no quality that can be perceptible to the senses, one must only deduce his existence by looking at the effects of his creation. But clearly, this is a circular argument: when stated like this (and S. al-Kirmani states is explicitly in this form) it already makes the metaphysical assumption that a creator exists, the very thing you wanted to prove!

In fact, first, one would have to prove that the physical universe that we see around us (which is the only thing we can use in the proof as S. al-Kirmani says) actually can't just be the way it is without any external intervention. In modern physics, specially in high energy physics (quantum field theory) and cosmology the existence of the things around us can be explained without any creative act occurring at all. Particles can be created and destroyed at random without any apparent cause, as one goes to the tiniest scales. In fact, it is entirely possible that the universe came into being at random in an empty quantum vacuum. If one asks "who made that vacuum" one would reply "No one, it just is". This is similar to the answer to the question "Who made the Creator?" one may ask. As al-Kirmani says (and STF regurgitates) "god is incomprehensible". But why not "the vacuum from which the Universe arose is incomprehensible"? Once we allow one uncreated/incomprehensible thing then we might as well allow more than one, or this one rather than that one.

Incidentally, it may occur to someone that creation needed energy and perhaps the Creator provided that energy. However, turns out that the total energy content of the universe is exactly zero! The positive energy in matter and radiation is exactly cancelled by the negative energy of the gravitational field.

(Now, there are uncertainties in these laws at the frontier of quantum field theory and gravity. It is possible that such uncertainties will persist and there won't be any unifying laws that marry quantum mechanics and gravity, though, I hope and feel (and any thinking and curious person would do too) that eventually this marriage will happen and we will have a theory that allows us to explain gravity and all the other phenomena as a manifestation of a single law. We likely already have such a theory in String Theory).

Incidentally, I don't know why STF and his father before him think that giving one sentence answers is a sign of smartness. For example, STF says his father once said "God is beyond comprehension". I mean, should we shout wah-wah or Mola, Mola or something? Or pat SKQ on his back? Or his strange obsession with the one trip he (SKQ) made to Fermi National Lab. I am sure that 99.9999% of stuff happening at Fermi Lab is beyond the comprehension of SKQ or his "amazing" kids! Just because you know some ancient books and can mug-up poems does not mean you are smart.

Overall, I think this lecture series is a good idea. But it clearly is not addressing any modern questions and is simply regurgitating ancient things already said 1000 years ago. The world has moved on. You will not learn anything of value about the universe, its structure and origins from ancient religious texts. Read a modern book on cosmology (which may be hard as most people don't understand the advanced math). Don't look to religious leaders to answer scientific questions. They have slept for centuries and still quote texts written 1000 years ago as if they and only they contain the truth!

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#655

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:21 pm

I find the simple argument quite convincing....since there is a chair, it must have a maker. Hence, since there is a Universe, it must have a creator. What part of it did you not understand?
Unless of course you are so lacking in imagination that you are not willing to make room for a grand purpose, a grand designer and a magnificent creation. And if you find the idea of a creator so objectionable, what are you even going here? I am quite amused that you find it more credible that the Universe popped out of nothing Or “just is” but you find the idea of an omnipotent creator quite objectionable.

Sceptical
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#656

Unread post by Sceptical » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:56 am

And the Fermi Lab anecdote: this proves once again that some people have absolutely no understanding of how science works.

I agree with brother Biradar. The arguments are not convincing in light of recent scientific advances : in fact, I find them particularly weak.

God is just a matter of faith. There is no need to prove His existence.
Biradar wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:13 pm
Incidentally, it may occur to someone that creation needed energy and perhaps the Creator provided that energy. However, turns out that the total energy content of the universe is exactly zero! The positive energy in matter and radiation is exactly cancelled by the negative energy of the gravitational field.
A universe from nothing - Pr Krauss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time"

Biradar
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#657

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:36 am

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:21 pm
I find the simple argument quite convincing....since there is a chair, it must have a maker. Hence, since there is a Universe, it must have a creator. What part of it did you not understand?
Unless of course you are so lacking in imagination that you are not willing to make room for a grand purpose, a grand designer and a magnificent creation. And if you find the idea of a creator so objectionable, what are you even going here? I am quite amused that you find it more credible that the Universe popped out of nothing Or “just is” but you find the idea of an omnipotent creator quite objectionable.
Clearly, you don't seem to actually understand much of science or even of logic. Hence you fall for any mullah who tells you things which your childish imagination finds acceptable. Let us study the following two statements.
  • There is a chair. Someone must have had made it
  • There is a Universe. Someone must have had made it
The first is true. However, can you not see that the second need not follow from the first? There is no reason why if thing A was made all other things must be made too. In fact, it is possible that there is a thing which was not made at all. Enumerating examples of things that were made does not mean that everything was made. Again, if you say the universe has a creator, then who made the creator?

In any case, I am not saying there is no creator. I am saying that the "proof" given by STF or even al-Kirmani are not convincing. Please read my post carefully. One can understand al-Kirmani was operating centuries ago. Since then science and in particular physics and cosmology have moved on. If STF wants to answer "todays questions" he should engage modern cosmology and physics and not repeat age-old arguments that have been refuted a long time ago.

What I find funny, though, is that you are such a doe-eyed fanboy. You seem to think that the kids of SKQ are some sort of geniuses. They are not. They are certainly smarter than Muffy but that is not saying much.

kseeker
Posts: 154
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#658

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:05 pm

Biradar wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:36 am
objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:21 pm
I find the simple argument quite convincing....since there is a chair, it must have a maker. Hence, since there is a Universe, it must have a creator. What part of it did you not understand?
Unless of course you are so lacking in imagination that you are not willing to make room for a grand purpose, a grand designer and a magnificent creation. And if you find the idea of a creator so objectionable, what are you even going here? I am quite amused that you find it more credible that the Universe popped out of nothing Or “just is” but you find the idea of an omnipotent creator quite objectionable.
Clearly, you don't seem to actually understand much of science or even of logic. Hence you fall for any mullah who tells you things which your childish imagination finds acceptable. Let us study the following two statements.
  • There is a chair. Someone must have had made it
  • There is a Universe. Someone must have had made it
The first is true. However, can you not see that the second need not follow from the first? There is no reason why if thing A was made all other things must be made too. In fact, it is possible that there is a thing which was not made at all. Enumerating examples of things that were made does not mean that everything was made. Again, if you say the universe has a creator, then who made the creator?

In any case, I am not saying there is no creator. I am saying that the "proof" given by STF or even al-Kirmani are not convincing. Please read my post carefully. One can understand al-Kirmani was operating centuries ago. Since then science and in particular physics and cosmology have moved on. If STF wants to answer "todays questions" he should engage modern cosmology and physics and not repeat age-old arguments that have been refuted a long time ago.

What I find funny, though, is that you are such a doe-eyed fanboy. You seem to think that the kids of SKQ are some sort of geniuses. They are not. They are certainly smarter than Muffy but that is not saying much.
Dear Biradar,
Thank you for your insight..It is good to see that there are people who do idraaq and not just shelve thoughts in a corner of the mind... there is no better way to utilize the time we have been bestowed.

I agree to most of what you have said but would like to pick up on two points on which I do not agree with you...

Using theories of Fuzzy Logic and Knowledge Engineering (both of these theories still stand as being valid when it comes to proving ideas), your argument that if one object has a creator does not mean every object has to have one is incorrect.. and if your argument is to be taken true, you have to prove that the object you are talking about does not have a creator...
I understand that you accept there is a creator.. but the 'proof' given by TF which you think is not convincing is the best there is.. may it be as per the knowledge available a thousand years ago or today...we do of course have a much more detailed understanding of cosmology today yet what is available is still not enough to give a clear answer or discredit what Syedna Kirmani states... what he states is simple.. If there is a creation, there has to be a creator.. however, we cannot comprehend the creator... both sentences have to be taken together, they cannot be analyzed separately..therefore, your question of "who made the creator?" becomes invalid.. this statement was made to give a daleel that there is a creator.. the argument ends there. your question is now a completely separate matter to which the Quran says " the creator is incomprehensible" ....

A Dai is a person who is spreading the word and message of Allah as given to him and explained to him by the Imaams..His job is to study texts, ideas, theologies which have been made available by them or by people who have written it under their supervision, and spread that message to the people..Even books like Kanz ul Walad which took the "Haqeeqat" discussion to a "higher" level has also been derived from works of Syedna Kirmani and Al Khattab.. both of who wrote under the supervision of the Imaam.. In his capacity as a Dai, if he dwells into material not written by "people of the faith" and uses modern cosmology and astrophysics or produces his own theories, he might be on the borderline of performing biddat so let's cut him some slack?.. that video of his, is the best he could do in his capacity as a Dai.. as an individual, he might have different opinions (no matter how accurate) but those would simply not be admissible.

I do not believe either TF or MS are the rightful Dais.. both are just power hungry people, like their fathers and grand fathers before them.. but one needs to give credit where it's due..coming out to explain the ideas of cosmology and creation from an Fatimid perspective in a simple manner is a great step...

All this aside, if you have any material worth sharing (Islamic or otherwise) which would give a good explanation of theories of creation/evolution, I would be glad to read...

Sceptical
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#659

Unread post by Sceptical » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:40 pm

The existence of God can not be proven by the scientific method, nor his non-existence.

Fact : Scientific theory shows that our universe could appear without the need of a creator.

Reasoning by analogy (chair therefore creator, universe therefore creator) leads to errors of logic.

The only point I agree with STF when he says that God is beyond understanding. Believe in God is an act of faith. Period.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#660

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:21 pm

Sceptical wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:40 pm
The existence of God can not be proven by the scientific method, nor his non-existence.

Fact : Scientific theory shows that our universe could appear without the need of a creator.

Reasoning by analogy (chair therefore creator, universe therefore creator) leads to errors of logic.

The only point I agree with STF when he says that God is beyond understanding. Believe in God is an act of faith. Period.
Referring to the sentence in Green above, I agree. Belief in God is an act of Faith; unlikely to be proved one way or the other in a logical sense. There is a hadith of Rasullah (SAW) related to the same, I think. I saw it in a (non-Bohra) masjid a while back. It was along the following lines (from memory):

"What is Faith? It is to believe that there is a God, even though you cannot see him, to believe in is angels, the day of judgement, .. ".

It may be related to the following (from Sahih Muslim)

http://www.iupui.edu/~msaiupui/001.smt.html

From the above reference:

One day we were sitting in the company of Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) when there appeared before us a man dressed in pure white clothes, his hair extraordinarily black. There were no signs of travel on him. None amongst us recognized him. At last he sat with the Apostle (peace be upon him) He knelt before him placed his palms on his thighs and said: Muhammad, inform me about al-Islam. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Al-Islam implies that you testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and you establish prayer, pay Zakat, observe the fast of Ramadan, and perform pilgrimage to the (House) if you are solvent enough (to bear the expense of) the journey. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (Umar ibn al-Khattab) said: It amazed us that he would put the question and then he would himself verify the truth. He (the inquirer) said: Inform me about Iman (faith). He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, in His angels, in His Books, in His Apostles, in the Day of Judgment, and you affirm your faith in the Divine Decree about good and evil. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (the inquirer) again said: Inform me about al-Ihsan (performance of good deeds). He (the Holy Prophet) said: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, for though you don't see Him, He, verily, sees you

It might be from the above hadith, but I am no expert on religion.