Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

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Mkenya
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#601

Unread post by Mkenya » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:26 pm

Humsafar wrote:Can we please cut out the soppy rhetoric? We were/are a people beholden to a self-serving ideology of a family which is now split, and fighting over family jewels. I'm not sure what pride you can find in that. Agreed, STF comes off as a decent chap compared to the dumbbell Muffy, but don't forget they are cut from the same cloth. If you really want instruction and inspiration to improve yourself there are many and vastly superior sources out there. Truth is Bohras don't follow one or the other Dai for inspiration or to live a good, ethical life. They just want to belong. The majority are in Muffy camp by default. He makes monkeys out of them but he also keeps them busy and entertained.
Hamsafar: A very succinct roundup. I commend you Bhai Hamsafar.

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#602

Unread post by momeenbhai » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:56 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:05 am
As expected Taher appoints his own brothers as Mazoon and Mukasir.....so these vultures will keep feasting in the name of Islam and run their own little world of dawat.....SHAME SHAME SHAME

"
Syedna Taher Fakhruddin TUS appoints Syedi Mazoon Saheb Abdeali bhaisaheb Saifuddin Saheb Ataal Allahu Baqaa'ahu (AAB) to the rutba of izn and Syedi Mukasir Saheb Husain bhaisaheb Burhanuddin Saheb Ataal Allahu Baqaa'ahu (AAB) to the rutba of kasr during Ashara Mubaraka waaz majlis on 2nd Moharram 1441H. "


there is no difference in muffy or taher both are running their little mafia world.

they dont want to let go the power from their own family, there is no involvement of Imam in dawat as they claim.
No taheri abde amte want to explain how come only one family is "chosen" by Imam to rule taa qayamat :roll:

Crater Lake
Posts: 347
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#603

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:25 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:56 am
momeenbhai wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:05 am
As expected Taher appoints his own brothers as Mazoon and Mukasir.....so these vultures will keep feasting in the name of Islam and run their own little world of dawat.....SHAME SHAME SHAME

"
Syedna Taher Fakhruddin TUS appoints Syedi Mazoon Saheb Abdeali bhaisaheb Saifuddin Saheb Ataal Allahu Baqaa'ahu (AAB) to the rutba of izn and Syedi Mukasir Saheb Husain bhaisaheb Burhanuddin Saheb Ataal Allahu Baqaa'ahu (AAB) to the rutba of kasr during Ashara Mubaraka waaz majlis on 2nd Moharram 1441H. "


there is no difference in muffy or taher both are running their little mafia world.

they dont want to let go the power from their own family, there is no involvement of Imam in dawat as they claim.
No taheri abde amte want to explain how come only one family is "chosen" by Imam to rule taa qayamat :roll:
I don’t think that has been the case in history. However in these times only one family is committed to pursue ilm e aale Mohammed to the level that is required to lead people in ilm. The likes of you question the existence of the imam. So you don’t even come close. So that leaves them.

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#604

Unread post by momeenbhai » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:28 am

Crater Lake wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:25 am
momeenbhai wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:56 am


No taheri abde amte want to explain how come only one family is "chosen" by Imam to rule taa qayamat :roll:
I don’t think that has been the case in history. However in these times only one family is committed to pursue ilm e aale Mohammed to the level that is required to lead people in ilm. The likes of you question the existence of the imam. So you don’t even come close. So that leaves them.
I question existence of Imam?

I question existance of your brain which accepts that Imam is appointing only one courrupt family from last 300 years.

SBM
Posts: 6352
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#605

Unread post by SBM » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:39 am

"I question existance of your brain which accepts that Imam is appointing only one courrupt family from last 300 years."
I thought Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal who also became Dai were not from the same Yemeni family. The whole Dai succession is questionable

Qadir
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#606

Unread post by Qadir » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:48 am

Now, I have a strong reason to believe that SBM is either a non-bohra or he/she has literally no knowledge about this community’s past.
Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal probably existed before the birth of 21st Imam. They were in no capacity dais.
First dai to be a descendant of Indian people or maybe hindu indians was Syedna Yusuf Najmuddin 24th dai whose qabr is in Yemen.
Are everyone in qutbi clan like you, no wonder you left with kq.

Qadir
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#607

Unread post by Qadir » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:52 am

If you are one of the Progressives, i am not surprised with your level of ilm of dawat.
Sorry for making the assumption that smb belonged to qutbi clan.

Biradar
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#608

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:04 am

Qadir wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:48 am
Now, I have a strong reason to believe that SBM is either a non-bohra or he/she has literally no knowledge about this community’s past.
Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal probably existed before the birth of 21st Imam. They were in no capacity dais.
First dai to be a descendant of Indian people or maybe hindu indians was Syedna Yusuf Najmuddin 24th dai whose qabr is in Yemen.
Are everyone in qutbi clan like you, no wonder you left with kq.
You are right that SBM is not a very knowledgeable person. SBM is not Bohra, in the sense of following any particular Bohra doctrines. He is a self-identified "SUSHI". You can ask him what he means by it.

However, to clarify for you: the word "da'i" does not always refer to da'i al-mutlaq. During the time of the Imams there were several da'is, each carrying out a mission for the Imam. For example, close to the time of the zuhoor of the Imam, there were several da'is who were working on behalf of the Imam in North Africa and elsewhere. These people were called da'is too. The attachment of the word "da'i" with "da'i al-mutlaq" is a post-Fatimid phenomena, in which the power of the (now hidden) Imam was vested in a da'i al-mutlaq.

So in one sense there were many da'is in India during the time of the Imam. They were honored with this title by the Imam himself. Of course, they were not of the same stature as the da'i al-mutlaq, who are, in one sense, holders of the full power of the Imam during his absence. So it is okay to call people like Syedi Fakhruddin shahid and others as da'i, as many history books refer to him in that way.

ajamali
Posts: 485
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#609

Unread post by ajamali » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:08 pm

Qadir wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:52 am
If you are one of the Progressives, i am not surprised with your level of ilm of dawat.
Sorry for making the assumption that smb belonged to qutbi clan.
SBM will be the first to deny that he belongs to Fatemi Dawat. However Qadir you exemplify the new disease of Mufaddali morons. If they find anything the least bit disagreeable, they put it in the Fatemi Dawat bucket. Bad publicity due to breaking toilets, licking spoons, mufaddali corruption, SBUT corruption? It is never their own fault. It is always the fault of Fatemi Dawat. As though our Moula asked the Jamea monkeys to lick spoons or go around video taping the breaking of toilets.

Qadir
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#610

Unread post by Qadir » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:02 pm

Biradar wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:04 am
Qadir wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:48 am
Now, I have a strong reason to believe that SBM is either a non-bohra or he/she has literally no knowledge about this community’s past.
Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal probably existed before the birth of 21st Imam. They were in no capacity dais.
First dai to be a descendant of Indian people or maybe hindu indians was Syedna Yusuf Najmuddin 24th dai whose qabr is in Yemen.
Are everyone in qutbi clan like you, no wonder you left with kq.
You are right that SBM is not a very knowledgeable person. SBM is not Bohra, in the sense of following any particular Bohra doctrines. He is a self-identified "SUSHI". You can ask him what he means by it.

However, to clarify for you: the word "da'i" does not always refer to da'i al-mutlaq. During the time of the Imams there were several da'is, each carrying out a mission for the Imam. For example, close to the time of the zuhoor of the Imam, there were several da'is who were working on behalf of the Imam in North Africa and elsewhere. These people were called da'is too. The attachment of the word "da'i" with "da'i al-mutlaq" is a post-Fatimid phenomena, in which the power of the (now hidden) Imam was vested in a da'i al-mutlaq.

So in one sense there were many da'is in India during the time of the Imam. They were honored with this title by the Imam himself. Of course, they were not of the same stature as the da'i al-mutlaq, who are, in one sense, holders of the full power of the Imam during his absence. So it is okay to call people like Syedi Fakhruddin shahid and others as da'i, as many history books refer to him in that way.
Please provide me name of a single book which says that Syedi Fakhruddin Shahid is a dai. I have utmost repect for Babji Moula and maybe he was a dai.
I agree that there were a lot of dais at time of Imam and that they were not Dai al Mutlaq who we don’t know but we do know that only dai al mutlaq has a succession procedure.
When SBM talked about how Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal did not belong to the same “Yemeni family” he for sure was applying that Raja Bharmal Raja Tarmal were Dai al Mutlaq.
And for SBM’s knowledge, Syedna Abdulqadir Najmuddin which progressives believe spoilt the dawat are the descendants of Syedi Fakhruddin shahid and so were descendants of Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal. So don’t go saying around that families don’t change in dai succesion because it does and incidentally we might be living in a time when one family has had dai for a long time. There were 18 dai al mutlaq belonging to Waleed family (all dafan in Yemen) where as there have been only 7 dai who lived long lives. And may Khuda taala give a long life to the 7th dai Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin.

Biradar
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#611

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:36 pm

Qadir wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:02 pm

When SBM talked about how Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal did not belong to the same “Yemeni family” he for sure was applying that Raja Bharmal Raja Tarmal were Dai al Mutlaq.

SBM may be ignorant, but you are not much more enlightened either. You are still young, not much beyond a child. Learn first that people like SBM are not followers of any line of da'is and so you should not take his lack of knowledge and assign him to any particular group. He might even be a card-carrying Muffy lover! (But I just kid. SBM is not a Muffy or STF follower. He is his own thing and, though I often spar with him, he is really a very nice person and also involved in his local Muslim community doing many positive things.).

There are intelligent people in many groups and also very foolish and ignorant people in those very groups too.

About the word da'i: it is simply someone who has authority to spread the religion. Syedi Fakruddin was a da'i in that sense. I have sat in many sabaaqs from SMB in the early years of his tenure and also other prominent people, and I have heard SMB and others refer to Syedi Fakruddin as da'i. (Also see recent waaz by the mazoon of STF). There are also history books in which such a designation is used. I can supply you with references later if you wish to really learn.

You are correct that the specific succession by nas (explicit designation) is only for the da'i al-mutlaq. Also, I agree with you that it is not a problem that the succession of da'is remains in one family for a long time. It is not unusual and clearly can and does happen. However, such succession can lead to very negative things, including too much consolidation of power in one family.

kseeker
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#612

Unread post by kseeker » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:08 am

Biradar wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:04 am
Qadir wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:48 am
Now, I have a strong reason to believe that SBM is either a non-bohra or he/she has literally no knowledge about this community’s past.
Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal probably existed before the birth of 21st Imam. They were in no capacity dais.
First dai to be a descendant of Indian people or maybe hindu indians was Syedna Yusuf Najmuddin 24th dai whose qabr is in Yemen.
Are everyone in qutbi clan like you, no wonder you left with kq.
You are right that SBM is not a very knowledgeable person. SBM is not Bohra, in the sense of following any particular Bohra doctrines. He is a self-identified "SUSHI". You can ask him what he means by it.

However, to clarify for you: the word "da'i" does not always refer to da'i al-mutlaq. During the time of the Imams there were several da'is, each carrying out a mission for the Imam. For example, close to the time of the zuhoor of the Imam, there were several da'is who were working on behalf of the Imam in North Africa and elsewhere. These people were called da'is too. The attachment of the word "da'i" with "da'i al-mutlaq" is a post-Fatimid phenomena, in which the power of the (now hidden) Imam was vested in a da'i al-mutlaq.

So in one sense there were many da'is in India during the time of the Imam. They were honored with this title by the Imam himself. Of course, they were not of the same stature as the da'i al-mutlaq, who are, in one sense, holders of the full power of the Imam during his absence. So it is okay to call people like Syedi Fakhruddin shahid and others as da'i, as many history books refer to him in that way.
I would second all of your statements.. A Da'i is basically a messenger to the imam and anyone can be a Dai but only chosen people are Dai al Mutlaq... however this :
The attachment of the word "da'i" with "da'i al-mutlaq" is a post-Fatimid phenomena, in which the power of the (now hidden) Imam was vested in a da'i al-mutlaq.
The position of Dai-al-Mutlaq has always been there... Mazoon-al-Mutlaq, Dai-al-Mutlaq, Dai-al-Balagh, Hujjat-al-Lail, Hujjat-an-Nahar,Bab-ul-Abwab are designated positions under the imam which have been there from the "start"... you gain those positions based on ilm and amal.. and ofcourse, as per the wish of the imaam... there are times when even the holders of the positions don't know about their standing.. regardless, an imam (whether haazir or in maghfi) always has people in these positions... i do agree that the roles have become more prominent after a certain era due to the decline in the imam's direct involvement.

another thing :
in which the power of the (now hidden) Imam was vested in a da'i al-mutlaq.
The authority of the Dai-al-Mutlaq, while the imam is in hiding, is the same as when he is/was present. Because he is the highest rank available to the common folk, he has the most authority.. but saying he has the power of the imam while he is hidden is wrong. The Dai is not allowed to change the shari'a, he does not have the right to khutbas, he does not have the right to order jihad, he does not have the right to ordane any temporary change or halt in ANY pillars of islam... I mention this to debunk the idea that a Dai is "all powerful"

If anything I said is incorrect, may Allah forgive me.

Biradar
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#613

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:16 pm

kseeker wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:08 am
The position of Dai-al-Mutlaq has always been there... Mazoon-al-Mutlaq, Dai-al-Mutlaq, Dai-al-Balagh, Hujjat-al-Lail, Hujjat-an-Nahar,Bab-ul-Abwab are designated positions under the imam which have been there from the "start"... you gain those positions based on ilm and amal.. and ofcourse, as per the wish of the imaam... there are times when even the holders of the positions don't know about their standing.. regardless, an imam (whether haazir or in maghfi) always has people in these positions... i do agree that the roles have become more prominent after a certain era due to the decline in the imam's direct involvement.
Exactly correct. These positions are described in various books written in the time of the Imams and so it is not a post-Fatimid term. My point was that the terms came to mean specific things after the occultation of the Imam.
The authority of the Dai-al-Mutlaq, while the imam is in hiding, is the same as when he is/was present. Because he is the highest rank available to the common folk, he has the most authority.. but saying he has the power of the imam while he is hidden is wrong. The Dai is not allowed to change the shari'a, he does not have the right to khutbas, he does not have the right to order jihad, he does not have the right to ordane any temporary change or halt in ANY pillars of islam... I mention this to debunk the idea that a Dai is "all powerful"

If anything I said is incorrect, may Allah forgive me.
During the absence of the Imam the da'i al-mutlaq is "sitting on the throne of the Imam". For all practical purposes he is the Imam (in the sense he exercises all powers of the Imam). My point is the following: in the absence of the Imam the position of the da'i al-mutlaq takes on a very special purpose, that is, to provide the guidance the Imam provided when he was physically manifest to the people.

Now, one can split hairs about this but in reality is that over a period of time meaning of words change. Often things are not articulated explicitly either, but studying history carefully one can discern these changes. Given about 1000 years have elapsed since the Imam went into seclusion it is clear that doctrines will change and the position of the da'i will change too. It would be an interesting exercise to study the self-image of da'is as they express them in various poems about themselves or their predecessors. I am certain that what would emerge is a picture that is radically different than written in documents from before the Imam's occultation. Which is fine. There is no need to think that these concepts are eternal and unchanging, and there is no need why they should be.

Of course, the da'i is not "all powerful". I did not claim that. Nobody is. Neither is the Imam, BTW. They were humans, with all the weaknesses that entails. The Fatimid empire did not last too long and suffered many ups and downs and often the Imam was under the control of powerful army generals and other court officials. Eventually the empire collapsed. So obviously, the Imams were not "all powerful" either.

Qadir
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#614

Unread post by Qadir » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:50 pm

Biradar wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:16 pm
kseeker wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:08 am
The position of Dai-al-Mutlaq has always been there... Mazoon-al-Mutlaq, Dai-al-Mutlaq, Dai-al-Balagh, Hujjat-al-Lail, Hujjat-an-Nahar,Bab-ul-Abwab are designated positions under the imam which have been there from the "start"... you gain those positions based on ilm and amal.. and ofcourse, as per the wish of the imaam... there are times when even the holders of the positions don't know about their standing.. regardless, an imam (whether haazir or in maghfi) always has people in these positions... i do agree that the roles have become more prominent after a certain era due to the decline in the imam's direct involvement.
Exactly correct. These positions are described in various books written in the time of the Imams and so it is not a post-Fatimid term. My point was that the terms came to mean specific things after the occultation of the Imam.
The authority of the Dai-al-Mutlaq, while the imam is in hiding, is the same as when he is/was present. Because he is the highest rank available to the common folk, he has the most authority.. but saying he has the power of the imam while he is hidden is wrong. The Dai is not allowed to change the shari'a, he does not have the right to khutbas, he does not have the right to order jihad, he does not have the right to ordane any temporary change or halt in ANY pillars of islam... I mention this to debunk the idea that a Dai is "all powerful"

If anything I said is incorrect, may Allah forgive me.
During the absence of the Imam the da'i al-mutlaq is "sitting on the throne of the Imam". For all practical purposes he is the Imam (in the sense he exercises all powers of the Imam). My point is the following: in the absence of the Imam the position of the da'i al-mutlaq takes on a very special purpose, that is, to provide the guidance the Imam provided when he was physically manifest to the people.

Now, one can split hairs about this but in reality is that over a period of time meaning of words change. Often things are not articulated explicitly either, but studying history carefully one can discern these changes. Given about 1000 years have elapsed since the Imam went into seclusion it is clear that doctrines will change and the position of the da'i will change too. It would be an interesting exercise to study the self-image of da'is as they express them in various poems about themselves or their predecessors. I am certain that what would emerge is a picture that is radically different than written in documents from before the Imam's occultation. Which is fine. There is no need to think that these concepts are eternal and unchanging, and there is no need why they should be.

Of course, the da'i is not "all powerful". I did not claim that. Nobody is. Neither is the Imam, BTW. They were humans, with all the weaknesses that entails. The Fatimid empire did not last too long and suffered many ups and downs and often the Imam was under the control of powerful army generals and other court officials. Eventually the empire collapsed. So obviously, the Imams were not "all powerful" either.
I agree that these concepts are not eternal. There were dais in Yemen who did jihad so one can say that dai al mutlaq does have authority to start a jihad. But later dais in India have written that Dais cannot start jihad. So, were the dais wrong? No, each and every dai gets specific powers as per the wish of Imam. Maybe it’s different Imams who give different powers. Syedna Abdulqadir Najmuddin prayed namaz in Mumbai for rains but Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin didn’t have to pray namaz for rains in Africa (for which he was given the title of Rainmaker).
But where you get wrong is that Imam is not all powerful. Imam is not as powerful as Khuda. But Imam is more powerful than any other person on this earth, that I am sure you can agree upon. To us it might seem that Imam is being controlled or Imam is not getting everything to go his way but you forget that Imam just like dai gets powers from Khuda. That power is conveyed in form of dua, if Imam wishes to have a kingdom, he will do dua and if Khuda wishes tht then He provides a kingdom to Imam.

Biradar
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#615

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:37 am

Qadir wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:50 pm
That power is conveyed in form of dua, if Imam wishes to have a kingdom, he will do dua and if Khuda wishes tht then He provides a kingdom to Imam.
How sweet and naive. I guess you must believe in the Tooth-Fairy and Santa Claus too.

kseeker
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#616

Unread post by kseeker » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:09 pm

Biradar wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:16 pm
kseeker wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:08 am
The position of Dai-al-Mutlaq has always been there... Mazoon-al-Mutlaq, Dai-al-Mutlaq, Dai-al-Balagh, Hujjat-al-Lail, Hujjat-an-Nahar,Bab-ul-Abwab are designated positions under the imam which have been there from the "start"... you gain those positions based on ilm and amal.. and ofcourse, as per the wish of the imaam... there are times when even the holders of the positions don't know about their standing.. regardless, an imam (whether haazir or in maghfi) always has people in these positions... i do agree that the roles have become more prominent after a certain era due to the decline in the imam's direct involvement.
Exactly correct. These positions are described in various books written in the time of the Imams and so it is not a post-Fatimid term. My point was that the terms came to mean specific things after the occultation of the Imam.
The authority of the Dai-al-Mutlaq, while the imam is in hiding, is the same as when he is/was present. Because he is the highest rank available to the common folk, he has the most authority.. but saying he has the power of the imam while he is hidden is wrong. The Dai is not allowed to change the shari'a, he does not have the right to khutbas, he does not have the right to order jihad, he does not have the right to ordane any temporary change or halt in ANY pillars of islam... I mention this to debunk the idea that a Dai is "all powerful"

If anything I said is incorrect, may Allah forgive me.
During the absence of the Imam the da'i al-mutlaq is "sitting on the throne of the Imam". For all practical purposes he is the Imam (in the sense he exercises all powers of the Imam). My point is the following: in the absence of the Imam the position of the da'i al-mutlaq takes on a very special purpose, that is, to provide the guidance the Imam provided when he was physically manifest to the people.

Now, one can split hairs about this but in reality is that over a period of time meaning of words change. Often things are not articulated explicitly either, but studying history carefully one can discern these changes. Given about 1000 years have elapsed since the Imam went into seclusion it is clear that doctrines will change and the position of the da'i will change too. It would be an interesting exercise to study the self-image of da'is as they express them in various poems about themselves or their predecessors. I am certain that what would emerge is a picture that is radically different than written in documents from before the Imam's occultation. Which is fine. There is no need to think that these concepts are eternal and unchanging, and there is no need why they should be.

Of course, the da'i is not "all powerful". I did not claim that. Nobody is. Neither is the Imam, BTW. They were humans, with all the weaknesses that entails. The Fatimid empire did not last too long and suffered many ups and downs and often the Imam was under the control of powerful army generals and other court officials. Eventually the empire collapsed. So obviously, the Imams were not "all powerful" either.
I partially disagree with your portrayal of the imams. However, I would like to stay away from this discussion as a lot of what I believe in is based out of our theology and theocracy.. something which is always open to interpretation and is representation/inference rather than facts or an actual event which took place.
They are indeed bound to human limitations.. they have not come to rule, conquer or control... to put it as simple i can, they set things in motion. They are able to that because there is a veil in front of our eyes which is not in front of theirs. And as much as it seems like a superpower, it is actually more like a super-burden.. it is not only the fatimid empire but the sacrifices given by Hazrat Ali (AS), Imam Hasan, Imam Hussain, Imam Jafar-as-Sadiq and pretty much every imam for that case to keep the 'world in motion'..

You don't need to be a tooth fairy to be special,but you have to be different to be special.

I also agree with your point that the Dai has to change himself according to the age, condition and events he is in... there is nothing wrong with that... some have had to fight with knowledge, some with politics and some by force... however it should be within the boundaries defined by the sharia and the role assigned to them... that authority is only with the next Natiq...

Promoting the concept of hanging images of the Dai at home, giving his hand to non mehram women for salaam, terrorizing and verbally abusing people against them is not something which time or situtions made necesarry for the Dai to do... it is blatant violation of Islam and the authority given to them....

SBM
Posts: 6352
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#617

Unread post by SBM » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:32 pm

each and every dai gets specific powers as per the wish of Imam.
So it is possible Imam gave specific powers to SKQ as well.
And yes Biradar is right (and thank you Biradar for your kind words), I donot belong to any Bohra Cults anymore but I believe certain good thing community has done in the past and they have a rich cultural and philanthropical past, unfortunately from 51 onwards, this highly educated, entrepreneur and philanthropic community was robbed by so called DAIS+
But Imam is more powerful than any other person on this earth,
So Imam is more powerful then Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) your words ANY OTHER PERSON :evil:
You may clarify your statement by saying ANY LIVING PERSON but again 90% of Muslim Ummah disagrees with you

Bohra spring
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#618

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:40 am

Can someone prove to me with evidence the Imam is in seclusion? Sounds like Harry potter fairy tale that Bohra grown-up follow blindly.

How do we know Burhanudin forefathers were chosen ones. Why does this hereditary nass remains in one family. A family of 1000 rulling 1million. It's like every royal family has 1000 slaves or 200 slave families. Contributing $1000 per family. These brings the Burhanudin dynasty to make $200 million by wearing a white turban, stories and spewing fake tales.

With this ratio STF may be making a clean $2 or 3 thousand per family. He is more profitable per slave family.

Now if you compare to an Iran's Ayatollahs who controls 100 million followers and natural oil reserves. Cool $200 billion Looks like they have more power. Yet he stays in a 2 bedroom flat. I don't trust him but he has better optics. He recently brought the mighty US and Saudi to its knees. If I am a power fan I will easily trade our Diai for Ayatollah

SMS cannot even ride a horse without falling or speak with a prompter, STF cannot even go to his grandfathers grave scared of getting bruised.

If I look at the billions of Muslims and this 1 million community. The Diai system is a total failure in terms to Islamic dawah it has shrunk overtime . In global terms it's not a community. 1 million men women and children is a small town with a $100,000 Mayor.

momeenbhai
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#619

Unread post by momeenbhai » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:14 am

Imam is in seclustion is proved under Hadith.

current bohra dai have nothing to do with Islam or Imam.

so do not mix up things.

read more aboout Islam from Shia and Sunni perspective to know more.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#620

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:24 pm

Have you personally read the Quran verse and context of its revelation.

The servants of Allah, or worldly successors are completely different intentions to way applying to Imam of Bohra. This is as silly as picking words and making it reason in imaginations .

If you talk of Hadith these are 3rd hand subjective historical agreed norms after the Prophet and his family had long passed away. No authentic basis of proof. I would go as far as saying they were doctored to serve politics of the times.

Again STF can claim he is serving a concept of belief that is a Imam of zaman and as his selected leader. I think he is very alert and clever never to have claimed he is appointed by unseen Imam. He is more like an office holder. My issue is why him and not me.

SMS on other claims he talks to angels, sees his ancestors in heaven, I thinks that is a lot of BS. But if his hallucinating followers think that is meditation so be it. Their soulsare being entertained. Its the comedy they are happy to be paying for.

Now about what did Quran or Prophet SAW actually say about an Imam the way we think Imam is. Prophet expected us to be fair and sensible. No aristocracy, monarchy, most eligible in iman can be from anywhere.

Ahlul Bayt were eligible but not always and not by default or birth . They had to earn and tested extremely. Umer, Ali, Hassan and Hussein earned it and were the Prophet's desire. I am not sure later ones why they deserved titles of Imam, Khalifa or leader more than anyone else.

Umer did a lot his service to growth of Islam is unquestionably great. His reign Quran was documented, 2 empires overthrown etc. He did make a few mistakes but overall he did great things. I have reservations for Abubakr and Osman whether they were ceremonial or achieved a lot. Any Shia worth his faith cannot fault Umer achievement that Bohra also claim hifz skills on. He masterminded the Quran compilation as we know it. Painful but true.

momeenbhai wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:14 am
Imam is in seclustion is proved under Hadith.

current bohra dai have nothing to do with Islam or Imam.

so do not mix up things.

read more aboout Islam from Shia and Sunni perspective to know more.

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#621

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:03 am

this is the sole reason why logical people movement fails against the muffy and taher, because you people start questioning the very basic principles of Islam which is hadith and sunnah, this is how the muffy regime wins against the people who wants to bring the simplicity and true Islam of prophet in dawat,

some dude questions qasim marriage with sakina
some dude questions hadith
some dude questions presence of Imam
some questions beard
some question cover of a woman
some may also bring to question on Quran,

this is how the whole thing becomes irrelevant for those who believe in Allah.

Qadir
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#622

Unread post by Qadir » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:07 am

Bohra spring wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:24 pm
Have you personally read the Quran verse and context of its revelation.

The servants of Allah, or worldly successors are completely different intentions to way applying to Imam of Bohra. This is as silly as picking words and making it reason in imaginations .

If you talk of Hadith these are 3rd hand subjective historical agreed norms after the Prophet and his family had long passed away. No authentic basis of proof. I would go as far as saying they were doctored to serve politics of the times.

Again STF can claim he is serving a concept of belief that is a Imam of zaman and as his selected leader. I think he is very alert and clever never to have claimed he is appointed by unseen Imam. He is more like an office holder. My issue is why him and not me.

SMS on other claims he talks to angels, sees his ancestors in heaven, I thinks that is a lot of BS. But if his hallucinating followers think that is meditation so be it. Their soulsare being entertained. Its the comedy they are happy to be paying for.

Now about what did Quran or Prophet SAW actually say about an Imam the way we think Imam is. Prophet expected us to be fair and sensible. No aristocracy, monarchy, most eligible in iman can be from anywhere.

Ahlul Bayt were eligible but not always and not by default or birth . They had to earn and tested extremely. Umer, Ali, Hassan and Hussein earned it and were the Prophet's desire. I am not sure later ones why they deserved titles of Imam, Khalifa or leader more than anyone else.

Umer did a lot his service to growth of Islam is unquestionably great. His reign Quran was documented, 2 empires overthrown etc. He did make a few mistakes but overall he did great things. I have reservations for Abubakr and Osman whether they were ceremonial or achieved a lot. Any Shia worth his faith cannot fault Umer achievement that Bohra also claim hifz skills on. He masterminded the Quran compilation as we know it. Painful but true.

momeenbhai wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:14 am
Imam is in seclustion is proved under Hadith.

current bohra dai have nothing to do with Islam or Imam.

so do not mix up things.

read more aboout Islam from Shia and Sunni perspective to know more.
Wow you just stopped believers in everything!
By reading your post, I am glad I follow Syedna Saifuddin. I am glad I believe in Imam uz Zaman.
I am glad I believe in Sons of Imam Hussain.
I an glad that every year I take 10 days out of my life for remembering Imam Hussain.
I am glad that I believe in panjetan and panjetan only.
I am glad that I believe in Sunnah and Hadith of Rasullullah.
I am glad I believe in Quran.
I am glad I believe in Allah.

Think about this question when you question the deen of Bohras even those who follow Taher Fakhruddin:
How many people in Progressive clan have memorized the Quran? How many women still cover their head every time they leave their house? How many people can get interest free loans?

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#623

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:37 am

Fools like Qadir rejoices to see such chances where he can defend his stupid unislamic master.

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#624

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:39 am

In personal capacity I find there is no traction in deen and knowledge. I find bohra books and amal are nearest to Islam.

Until the recent add up by muffy about the bolta ghoda and all. No wonder ghods thrown him on ground for speaking that and adding it up to dawat knowledge.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#625

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:03 pm

Question is not evil, the answers are good or bad.

I asked do Bohra and Shia agree the book they read in paper form was under direction of Khalifa Umar. They get their children recite this without knowing the meaning or source. Yet same curse this great servant of Islam.

Second point Quran does not talk about Imams as we practice. The answer is yes no. But we get about Sunnah.

Question we talk Sunnah do people really know who wrote down the Sunnah and when. Not 1 day after the Prophet SAW, not 1 month, not 1 year. 10 to 50 years after the Karbala event.

When was Karbala event recorded. Almost 50 years after the event by a single person Abu Miqnaf. I do agree an incident accept it happened, a shahadat covered but when your Diai acts it out with arm jestures. Oh really what an act?

About a 2 year old Imam. How could he have communicated theology at that tender age. If he spoke to his Diai. How do you know for sure Imam spoke or Diai spoke.

My point the only book and knowledge that is protected is Quran it says it and is tested, and evidence remains . I believe it's the communication to Prophet SAW. Anything else is manmade. If one wants to believe so be it. If not so be it.

Now 1000 years later Diai want to innovate and add spice stretch the stories so people enjoy bayan and keep going from one place of the planet to another holding hands go for it. That's for you guys.

My issue is the Prophet SAW did not ask me directly to worship some scholarly dude SMS or STF . I believe if his grandson gave his life for the honor of his prophet saw. He too would be horrified what later Imams, Khalifa Diai, Ulema, Ayatollahs have done to Islam. I would go as far as some of our belief are worse than what Yazid would have done to contaminate Islam if he was successful.
momeenbhai wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:03 am
this is the sole reason why logical people movement fails against the muffy and taher, because you people start questioning the very basic principles of Islam which is hadith and sunnah, this is how the muffy regime wins against the people who wants to bring the simplicity and true Islam of prophet in dawat,

some dude questions qasim marriage with sakina
some dude questions hadith
some dude questions presence of Imam
some questions beard
some question cover of a woman
some may also bring to question on Quran,

this is how the whole thing becomes irrelevant for those who believe in Allah.

momeenbhai
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#626

Unread post by momeenbhai » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:15 am

When Jesus can speak from cradle why cant 2 years old Imam direct his dai

anyways point here is current regime of corrupt dais and not questioning on Imam, Imam is going to come and this is Islamic belief not just bohra belief. so stick with it.
Bohra spring wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:03 pm


About a 2 year old Imam. How could he have communicated theology at that tender age. If he spoke to his Diai. How do you know for sure Imam spoke or Diai spoke.
Read Quran and see how many unimaginable miracles GOD have made, unless you start Questioning on Quran as well.

SBM
Posts: 6352
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#627

Unread post by SBM » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:11 am

Qadir
Amazing in your post
Believe in Allaha and Quran was last in your order of Believes. and that is what is being taught to Abdes/Amtes,

kseeker
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#628

Unread post by kseeker » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:32 am

Bohra spring wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:03 pm
Question is not evil, the answers are good or bad.

I asked do Bohra and Shia agree the book they read in paper form was under direction of Khalifa Umar. They get their children recite this without knowing the meaning or source. Yet same curse this great servant of Islam.
[/quote]

The Quran in it's current form was NOT ordained during Umar's time.. It was during Uthman's time, and just because it happened during his rule, it doesn't mean he is the one who put it in it's current shape.

momeenbhai
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#629

Unread post by momeenbhai » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:45 am

Quran is perfect. If you have doubt in it then you are not even muslim to start with.

Bohra spring
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#630

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:22 am

Again missing the point . The Quran in its current recording was done by Khalifa. It did not come down in a book form or order of ayats as we memorize or read. This is fact.

Jesus SAW was not preaching prophet hood in the cradle.

The Imam Bohra believe is a concept created recently. The 2 year old , what became of him is unproven. We read about it and expected to believe it's true. That is stretching the connection to early Prophet SAW and his direct Ahlul Bayt and companions.

They could be very pious individuals who may have not realised how future generations will conclude.

What does Mohammed SAW and Ali RA expect , that we become their worshipers