Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Bohra spring
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#751

Unread post by Bohra spring » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:46 pm

Yes I respect Umar RA ,there are reformist Shia who have realised there is no sin to respect the Khalifas and revere Ahlul Bayt just as reformist Sunni who respect Ahlul Bayt and Khalifa Rashidun.

This is my direct warning to the website. Robust debate is ok. But If it allows hate, vulgarv insult towards Prophet SAW companions or Ahlul-bayt you run risk of destructive wrath of 95% Muslims. This site is searchable. Criticism of Diai is not at same level as criticism of Khalifa Rashidun. A diai achievement or status is insignificant to Ahlul-bayt or the companions.

Successor to the compiler Abubakr RA into kitab form of Quran your Dias so rigorously try to do hifz on its basis.

The Khalifa who took down Christian Byzantine and Zoroastrian Sasanid, Jerusalem.

If you don't like it try denouncing Umar's reputation publicly and watch how like Qadyani you get into real trouble.

There is no written literature ever or exists that says Ali ibn Abi Talib AS, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussein, Imam Sajjad Zainul Abidin ever criticised Umar RA to the extent Shias do today. Show me evidence. Not tawil BS and I promise I will revert back to Bohraism. So try being real Shias of Ali AS not Shias of some Qazis.

You will deny to accept Khalifa were not your enemy because it is so embarrassing to accept Imam Ali gave Umar RA, whether as love or political symbolic reasons his daughter. To have a physical relationship with Umar RA. You do know marriage leads to sharing intimacy that results in children. Shias are not that naive to not know what is marriage.

Would you in 21st century offer your daughter to marry and sleep with your rival family ? What did SKQ do he asked his daughters to separate from SMS sons out of their petty dispute of negligible significance to 2 billion Muslims. Get my point. Let FD explain how they would not reconcile a much superior institution of marriage that is a far more significant wajib and sunna than disputing a Diai position. Why is it so unShia to not have 2 Diais side by side. Which kitab states a diai of Islam is only Diai for a tribal culture. Don't you see what kind of iman you are stuck in.

Shia are so blinded by the books written 200 years after Saqifa events that they are now locked into a division theory filled with hate that never was. That hate has produced your current iman. Your Diais exploit that division to keep you ignorant and them rich. It is mind boggling hard to accept. Yet you will risk wrath on judgement day that you insisted to follow a dispute to end for your egos.

If people read intellectually about the 2 companions you will be so surprised that Ali ib Abi Talib AS the real Ali AS , not the myth character traditional Shia like Bohra have created in their theology, how much he respected and vice versa they cared about each other. They had political disputes without doubt but never crossed the line for their united love of Islam or Prophet SAW hard work.

But Shia as a result of political fitna centuries later started doctoring history. And geopolitical wars between emerging rivalries that created Sunni and Shia. Don't het me wrong Umar or the 3 Khalifa never ever called them Sunni . That term also came 200 years later by the use of terms to identify a group of theologians.

I challenge you ask your Dias, where did they kearn about Imam Ali AS , which book, when was it written they lead to the times so later and by authors in courts. The equivalent of Qazis , poets and opinionated scholars. You are literally so off track that you no longer follow Quran or logic but a mythology.
Shabab wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:41 am
Bohra spring wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:48 pm Can STF declare openly that the next Diai will not be selected from direct relationship but will be on merit. Lead the change from within.
Again stating. You are UMAR and Muawiyah lover ( lanat on them and their followers).Please do not poke your nose in shia affairs until you are a bohra or atleast a shia.

Do not derail our discussions.

juzer esmail
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#752

Unread post by juzer esmail » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:28 pm

I don't think any Shia faction believes that Umar(LA) was son in law of Maula Ali AS, let alone us Dawoodi Bohra!

Bohra spring
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#753

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:01 pm

Beliefs are sometimes emotional and not based on facts.

I can understand your situation, your ancestors, culture, traditions, poetry, from the moment people were born to moment they die have been brought under a belief that so and so were bad . It feels like condemn the other is sawab and showing tolerance is haram. I was born in a Dawoodi spell too.

And whatever logic or fact is presented there will be equal reasons and influencers to deny it.

You and I arguing over it will not change what actually happened or not 1400 yrs ago. But what you and I can control is what our words and actions we take will either unite , live true to our original faith purpose or continue living on edge inviting from each other conflict.
juzer esmail wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:28 pm I don't think any Shia faction believes that Umar(LA) was son in law of Maula Ali AS, let alone us Dawoodi Bohra!

juzer esmail
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#754

Unread post by juzer esmail » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:00 am

Bhai everybody knows what happened after the demise of our Nabi SAW! The Dawoodi Bohra maslak believes in the Panjatan Pak A.S. and does lanat on the enemies of Ahl Al Bait. And would continue to teach future generations which those enemies were!

Bohra spring
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#755

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:02 pm

I will state this point blank.

I have not read or heard what DB 50th Diai said or heard him say it. Neither all your previous 49 Diai said or did. I cannot accuse them of guilt. That's history

However i have personally heard SMB and SMS say vile statements to Khalifa Rashidun. I condemn the 2 for their words and actions when you expect them to show scholarly leadership. I hope SMB reflected on his actions and sought forgiveness from Allah. If not it is now between him and his real Master.

For SMS, I have heard and seen him personally say vile things, I observe his talibins say it under his authority horrible curses. He has opportunity to come back on haq and stop this terrible pollution, remove it from jamia etc. If he continues and gets caught and is charged with blasphemy or public disorder he has himself to blame. As for his followers. Quran has verses to reflect on punishment for blind followers. There will be inexcusable consequences.

With regards to STF i have not personally heard him publicly say anything disrespectful. He can go ahead and he can believe what he wants as it does not make him any less believer. He can debate courteously and respectfully historical events.

With people like yourself with so insignificant knowledge or authority, i am lost and pity what motives you to continue your abuses fanatically. Anyway you exploit that our real Maula is merciful
juzer esmail wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:00 am Bhai everybody knows what happened after the demise of our Nabi SAW! The Dawoodi Bohra maslak believes in the Panjatan Pak A.S. and does lanat on the enemies of Ahl Al Bait. And would continue to teach future generations which those enemies were!


Bohra spring
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#757

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:33 am

But they have not learned. They still tease the crowds by calling out awal, sani, salis and crowd chants k lanat.

kseeker
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#758

Unread post by kseeker » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:59 am

Bohra spring wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:46 pm Yes I respect Umar RA ,there are reformist Shia who have realised there is no sin to respect the Khalifas and revere Ahlul Bayt just as reformist Sunni who respect Ahlul Bayt and Khalifa Rashidun.

This is my direct warning to the website. Robust debate is ok. But If it allows hate, vulgarv insult towards Prophet SAW companions or Ahlul-bayt you run risk of destructive wrath of 95% Muslims. This site is searchable. Criticism of Diai is not at same level as criticism of Khalifa Rashidun. A diai achievement or status is insignificant to Ahlul-bayt or the companions.

Successor to the compiler Abubakr RA into kitab form of Quran your Dias so rigorously try to do hifz on its basis.

The Khalifa who took down Christian Byzantine and Zoroastrian Sasanid, Jerusalem.

If you don't like it try denouncing Umar's reputation publicly and watch how like Qadyani you get into real trouble.

There is no written literature ever or exists that says Ali ibn Abi Talib AS, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussein, Imam Sajjad Zainul Abidin ever criticised Umar RA to the extent Shias do today. Show me evidence. Not tawil BS and I promise I will revert back to Bohraism. So try being real Shias of Ali AS not Shias of some Qazis.

You will deny to accept Khalifa were not your enemy because it is so embarrassing to accept Imam Ali gave Umar RA, whether as love or political symbolic reasons his daughter. To have a physical relationship with Umar RA. You do know marriage leads to sharing intimacy that results in children. Shias are not that naive to not know what is marriage.

Would you in 21st century offer your daughter to marry and sleep with your rival family ? What did SKQ do he asked his daughters to separate from SMS sons out of their petty dispute of negligible significance to 2 billion Muslims. Get my point. Let FD explain how they would not reconcile a much superior institution of marriage that is a far more significant wajib and sunna than disputing a Diai position. Why is it so unShia to not have 2 Diais side by side. Which kitab states a diai of Islam is only Diai for a tribal culture. Don't you see what kind of iman you are stuck in.

Shia are so blinded by the books written 200 years after Saqifa events that they are now locked into a division theory filled with hate that never was. That hate has produced your current iman. Your Diais exploit that division to keep you ignorant and them rich. It is mind boggling hard to accept. Yet you will risk wrath on judgement day that you insisted to follow a dispute to end for your egos.

If people read intellectually about the 2 companions you will be so surprised that Ali ib Abi Talib AS the real Ali AS , not the myth character traditional Shia like Bohra have created in their theology, how much he respected and vice versa they cared about each other. They had political disputes without doubt but never crossed the line for their united love of Islam or Prophet SAW hard work.

But Shia as a result of political fitna centuries later started doctoring history. And geopolitical wars between emerging rivalries that created Sunni and Shia. Don't het me wrong Umar or the 3 Khalifa never ever called them Sunni . That term also came 200 years later by the use of terms to identify a group of theologians.

I challenge you ask your Dias, where did they kearn about Imam Ali AS , which book, when was it written they lead to the times so later and by authors in courts. The equivalent of Qazis , poets and opinionated scholars. You are literally so off track that you no longer follow Quran or logic but a mythology.
Shabab wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:41 am

Again stating. You are UMAR and Muawiyah lover ( lanat on them and their followers).Please do not poke your nose in shia affairs until you are a bohra or atleast a shia.

Do not derail our discussions.
I would like to answer this one point at a time:

The term Shia is used for a person who does not believe in the validity of the first three khalifas - if you believe in them to be 'rightful' leaders - someone who the prophet would have been happy leading the community ahead of Ali (AS) and that you deny the events of Ghadeer, you are not a reformist shia - you are a sunni...
This is my direct warning to the website. Robust debate is ok. But If it allows hate, vulgarv insult towards Prophet SAW companions or Ahlul-bayt you run risk of destructive wrath of 95% Muslims.
Really? your "direct warning" ? What good is that going to do? there are forums out there openly abusing the prophet, Allah, Islam - how many of those sites did goons like you or those you admire deal with?

Please get your facts right - Abu Bakr did NOT compile the Quran - It happened during Uthman's era.. please brush up on your knowledge - might help you avoid making a fool out of yourself.
If you don't like it try denouncing Umar's reputation publicly and watch how like Qadyani you get into real trouble.
Says the person who does not have the audacity to write under his real name...
You will deny to accept Khalifa were not your enemy because it is so embarrassing to accept Imam Ali gave Umar RA, whether as love or political symbolic reasons his daughter. To have a physical relationship with Umar RA. You do know marriage leads to sharing intimacy that results in children. Shias are not that naive to not know what is marriage.
Nope.. did not happen... and if you are so admant - bring proof of it please.

As per Ismaili Mustali Tyebbi Shia beliefs, The reason Ali (AS) did not openly stand against the three caliphs is because that is exactly what those three people wanted - for him to revolt against them and to weaken people's faith in Islam... he did not give them that satisfaction or the victory they were looking for.. he did what he was supposed to - was a silent leader to the people who chose not to ignore what the Prophet made them promise on Ghadeer..

I am not a mainstream bohra - I have very strong reservations about the current leadership.. may it be MS or TF - however I do have faith in the Fatimid Mustali Tyebbi chain and their belief system...

If you are truly interested in understanding the faith and the core belief system and the sharia according to this sect, please pick up a copy of Daim ul Islam ( you can find an english version by Poonawala on Amazon) and read it.. it was written during the Fatimid era and explains the tennants of Islam by sourcing the Quran and Hadith..
Whether one openly insults the first three caliphs or not really does not make a difference - if they were men of Allah, no amount of lanats from bohras will hurt them.. if they were of the devil, no amount of praises sung by you will help them... stop focusing on trivial and childish things like name calling and try to understand what the core differences in the sects are , look at their reasoning and then decide for yourself what is right ..

juzer esmail
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#759

Unread post by juzer esmail » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:14 pm

Thank you kseeker for the rebuttal, otherwise I was wondering if this site was taken over by haters of Panjatan Pak A.S.!

Qadir
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#760

Unread post by Qadir » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:56 am

Bohra spring wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:46 pm Yes I respect Umar RA ,there are reformist Shia who have realised there is no sin to respect the Khalifas and revere Ahlul Bayt just as reformist Sunni who respect Ahlul Bayt and Khalifa Rashidun.

This is my direct warning to the website. Robust debate is ok. But If it allows hate, vulgarv insult towards Prophet SAW companions or Ahlul-bayt you run risk of destructive wrath of 95% Muslims. This site is searchable. Criticism of Diai is not at same level as criticism of Khalifa Rashidun. A diai achievement or status is insignificant to Ahlul-bayt or the companions.

Successor to the compiler Abubakr RA into kitab form of Quran your Dias so rigorously try to do hifz on its basis.

The Khalifa who took down Christian Byzantine and Zoroastrian Sasanid, Jerusalem.

If you don't like it try denouncing Umar's reputation publicly and watch how like Qadyani you get into real trouble.

There is no written literature ever or exists that says Ali ibn Abi Talib AS, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussein, Imam Sajjad Zainul Abidin ever criticised Umar RA to the extent Shias do today. Show me evidence. Not tawil BS and I promise I will revert back to Bohraism. So try being real Shias of Ali AS not Shias of some Qazis.

You will deny to accept Khalifa were not your enemy because it is so embarrassing to accept Imam Ali gave Umar RA, whether as love or political symbolic reasons his daughter. To have a physical relationship with Umar RA. You do know marriage leads to sharing intimacy that results in children. Shias are not that naive to not know what is marriage.

Would you in 21st century offer your daughter to marry and sleep with your rival family ? What did SKQ do he asked his daughters to separate from SMS sons out of their petty dispute of negligible significance to 2 billion Muslims. Get my point. Let FD explain how they would not reconcile a much superior institution of marriage that is a far more significant wajib and sunna than disputing a Diai position. Why is it so unShia to not have 2 Diais side by side. Which kitab states a diai of Islam is only Diai for a tribal culture. Don't you see what kind of iman you are stuck in.

Shia are so blinded by the books written 200 years after Saqifa events that they are now locked into a division theory filled with hate that never was. That hate has produced your current iman. Your Diais exploit that division to keep you ignorant and them rich. It is mind boggling hard to accept. Yet you will risk wrath on judgement day that you insisted to follow a dispute to end for your egos.

If people read intellectually about the 2 companions you will be so surprised that Ali ib Abi Talib AS the real Ali AS , not the myth character traditional Shia like Bohra have created in their theology, how much he respected and vice versa they cared about each other. They had political disputes without doubt but never crossed the line for their united love of Islam or Prophet SAW hard work.

But Shia as a result of political fitna centuries later started doctoring history. And geopolitical wars between emerging rivalries that created Sunni and Shia. Don't het me wrong Umar or the 3 Khalifa never ever called them Sunni . That term also came 200 years later by the use of terms to identify a group of theologians.

I challenge you ask your Dias, where did they kearn about Imam Ali AS , which book, when was it written they lead to the times so later and by authors in courts. The equivalent of Qazis , poets and opinionated scholars. You are literally so off track that you no longer follow Quran or logic but a mythology.
Shabab wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:41 am

Again stating. You are UMAR and Muawiyah lover ( lanat on them and their followers).Please do not poke your nose in shia affairs until you are a bohra or atleast a shia.

Do not derail our discussions.
Kids, this is what happens if you start listening to Zakir Naik!

Shabab
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#761

Unread post by Shabab » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:36 am

CONGRATULATIONS!!!


Few najis and napak Al Hammar successfully diverted the topic and saved taher ass that he cant even distinguished between a JIN and a human being soul. this is exactly how these people plant bewakoof people to divert topics online and offline.


what a waste of life you guys are.

Shabab
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#762

Unread post by Shabab » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:14 am

Taheri gang ne jor kaa jhatka deehre se laago che..... 10 din thi forum chhodi ne naasi gaya :lol:

no new youtube video I guess for some time now. :lol:

ajamali
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#763

Unread post by ajamali » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:23 pm

Shabab wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:14 am Taheri gang ne jor kaa jhatka deehre se laago che..... 10 din thi forum chhodi ne naasi gaya :lol:

no new youtube video I guess for some time now. :lol:
why you so eager to see us? Are you haunted by your many jinns Mummy's Boy?

Shabab
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#764

Unread post by Shabab » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:27 am

no answers to a very valid question, thats the so called haq naa dai nu ilm and his abdes ability to answer :lol:

ask Taher to brush off basic knowledge about islam before coming to youtube next time

moron thinks he knows everything yet cant differentiate on simple things :lol:

malgudidays
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:47 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#765

Unread post by malgudidays » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:04 am

kseeker wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:59 am
Bohra spring wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:46 pm Yes I respect Umar RA ,there are reformist Shia who have realised there is no sin to respect the Khalifas and revere Ahlul Bayt just as reformist Sunni who respect Ahlul Bayt and Khalifa Rashidun.

This is my direct warning to the website. Robust debate is ok. But If it allows hate, vulgarv insult towards Prophet SAW companions or Ahlul-bayt you run risk of destructive wrath of 95% Muslims. This site is searchable. Criticism of Diai is not at same level as criticism of Khalifa Rashidun. A diai achievement or status is insignificant to Ahlul-bayt or the companions.

Successor to the compiler Abubakr RA into kitab form of Quran your Dias so rigorously try to do hifz on its basis.

The Khalifa who took down Christian Byzantine and Zoroastrian Sasanid, Jerusalem.

If you don't like it try denouncing Umar's reputation publicly and watch how like Qadyani you get into real trouble.

There is no written literature ever or exists that says Ali ibn Abi Talib AS, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussein, Imam Sajjad Zainul Abidin ever criticised Umar RA to the extent Shias do today. Show me evidence. Not tawil BS and I promise I will revert back to Bohraism. So try being real Shias of Ali AS not Shias of some Qazis.

You will deny to accept Khalifa were not your enemy because it is so embarrassing to accept Imam Ali gave Umar RA, whether as love or political symbolic reasons his daughter. To have a physical relationship with Umar RA. You do know marriage leads to sharing intimacy that results in children. Shias are not that naive to not know what is marriage.

Would you in 21st century offer your daughter to marry and sleep with your rival family ? What did SKQ do he asked his daughters to separate from SMS sons out of their petty dispute of negligible significance to 2 billion Muslims. Get my point. Let FD explain how they would not reconcile a much superior institution of marriage that is a far more significant wajib and sunna than disputing a Diai position. Why is it so unShia to not have 2 Diais side by side. Which kitab states a diai of Islam is only Diai for a tribal culture. Don't you see what kind of iman you are stuck in.

Shia are so blinded by the books written 200 years after Saqifa events that they are now locked into a division theory filled with hate that never was. That hate has produced your current iman. Your Diais exploit that division to keep you ignorant and them rich. It is mind boggling hard to accept. Yet you will risk wrath on judgement day that you insisted to follow a dispute to end for your egos.

If people read intellectually about the 2 companions you will be so surprised that Ali ib Abi Talib AS the real Ali AS , not the myth character traditional Shia like Bohra have created in their theology, how much he respected and vice versa they cared about each other. They had political disputes without doubt but never crossed the line for their united love of Islam or Prophet SAW hard work.

But Shia as a result of political fitna centuries later started doctoring history. And geopolitical wars between emerging rivalries that created Sunni and Shia. Don't het me wrong Umar or the 3 Khalifa never ever called them Sunni . That term also came 200 years later by the use of terms to identify a group of theologians.

I challenge you ask your Dias, where did they kearn about Imam Ali AS , which book, when was it written they lead to the times so later and by authors in courts. The equivalent of Qazis , poets and opinionated scholars. You are literally so off track that you no longer follow Quran or logic but a mythology.

I would like to answer this one point at a time:

The term Shia is used for a person who does not believe in the validity of the first three khalifas - if you believe in them to be 'rightful' leaders - someone who the prophet would have been happy leading the community ahead of Ali (AS) and that you deny the events of Ghadeer, you are not a reformist shia - you are a sunni...
This is my direct warning to the website. Robust debate is ok. But If it allows hate, vulgarv insult towards Prophet SAW companions or Ahlul-bayt you run risk of destructive wrath of 95% Muslims.
Really? your "direct warning" ? What good is that going to do? there are forums out there openly abusing the prophet, Allah, Islam - how many of those sites did goons like you or those you admire deal with?

Please get your facts right - Abu Bakr did NOT compile the Quran - It happened during Uthman's era.. please brush up on your knowledge - might help you avoid making a fool out of yourself.
If you don't like it try denouncing Umar's reputation publicly and watch how like Qadyani you get into real trouble.
Says the person who does not have the audacity to write under his real name...
You will deny to accept Khalifa were not your enemy because it is so embarrassing to accept Imam Ali gave Umar RA, whether as love or political symbolic reasons his daughter. To have a physical relationship with Umar RA. You do know marriage leads to sharing intimacy that results in children. Shias are not that naive to not know what is marriage.
Nope.. did not happen... and if you are so admant - bring proof of it please.

As per Ismaili Mustali Tyebbi Shia beliefs, The reason Ali (AS) did not openly stand against the three caliphs is because that is exactly what those three people wanted - for him to revolt against them and to weaken people's faith in Islam... he did not give them that satisfaction or the victory they were looking for.. he did what he was supposed to - was a silent leader to the people who chose not to ignore what the Prophet made them promise on Ghadeer..

I am not a mainstream bohra - I have very strong reservations about the current leadership.. may it be MS or TF - however I do have faith in the Fatimid Mustali Tyebbi chain and their belief system...

If you are truly interested in understanding the faith and the core belief system and the sharia according to this sect, please pick up a copy of Daim ul Islam ( you can find an english version by Poonawala on Amazon) and read it.. it was written during the Fatimid era and explains the tennants of Islam by sourcing the Quran and Hadith..
Whether one openly insults the first three caliphs or not really does not make a difference - if they were men of Allah, no amount of lanats from bohras will hurt them.. if they were of the devil, no amount of praises sung by you will help them... stop focusing on trivial and childish things like name calling and try to understand what the core differences in the sects are , look at their reasoning and then decide for yourself what is right ..
Awesome rebuttal... to a Nasibi..

Biradar
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#766

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:30 pm

ajamali wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:23 pm
Shabab wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:14 am Barf barf barf
why you so eager to see us? Are you haunted by your many jinns Mummy's Boy?
I have been busy with many interesting projects and have not followed the discussions here closely. However, I now notice that Mummy's Boy is back under a new ID and was immediately discovered due to the horrible stench he carries with him. It is amazing, isn't it, that this nasty man changes IDs yet can't hide as the stench of his verbal diarrhea is impossible to hide.

In any case. Talking about Jinns. Inspired by STF's lecture I did some more research. I have concluded that Mummy's Boy is actually a weak-willed "man" (I think he is a man, but who knows these days! he may be a napusak) who has been possessed by a female Jinn of the species called "ghulah". These female jinnis are supposed to be evil and take over a weak-willed person and make them do and say very strange things. The solution to this possession is an exorcism but unfortunately for that the victim of the ghulah has to be in the presence of the exorcist. That is unlikely to happen as no one really wants Mummy's Boy close to them as the stench of diarrhea he emanates is unbearable.

Incidentally, the word "jinn" is mentioned about 29 or so times in the Qur'an. In one place the Qur'an says that jinns are made from a "smokeless fire" (Q 55:15) and in one place "a scorching fire" (Q 15:27) and also in the same verse that they were made before humans. However, these verses are not to be taken literally. The "fire" here means many things and is the opposite of "water". Water is the symbol of the Divine Knowledge and its homologue, the earthly dawaat. Fire is it's opposite, i.e. Satanic Ignorance and its homologue, of dawaat's enemies. So, when STF says that some of the jinns are those souls who opposed the dawaat that is perfectly valid interpretation of these verses.

Also, the issue of creation of souls and their existence in the pre-physical time-line, is a complex one within the Qur'anic system of cosmogony. For example, in Q 7:172 Allah asks the "Children of Adam, from their loins", "Am I not your Lord?" and gets the reply "Yes! We beat witness". Now, one may ask were these souls or "particles" of the Children of Adam already created that Allah could ask them this question? So, in the Qur'anic system before the creation of the physical time, "before" and "after" and "clay" and "fire" obviously do not mean what they mean in our earthly language. Of course, such subtleties are lost to those who swim in muck all day long like the nasty Mummy's Boy who infects this forum like a bad case of rash that never goes away.

Shabab
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#767

Unread post by Shabab » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:47 pm

Weak are those who hide behind the personal insult and try to humiliate other on the basis of assumptions, you are nothing to me so i wont reply any thing on personal level to you, because you are just an abde of Taher and for me you are nothing but dirt.

any ways if you and your Taher really thinks that jin and Human souls are same then I CHALLENGE him to write a book on it and publish it to the ulema of ISLAM and prove whatever bulshiit he is speaking in the video is true.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Shabab on Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Biradar
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#768

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:50 pm

Shabab wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:47 pm Barf Barf Barf
Did you not put me on ignore? Or was that the female jinni possessing you say that? Honestly, Mummy's Boy please seek some help. A local qazi can help you too. These ghulahs are not safe to harbor in your body for long.

Shabab
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#769

Unread post by Shabab » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:55 pm

You are dirt and you belong in bin, but I wanted to read what bullcrap you come up with to defend your master, abdes never disappoints to provide humor. :lol: any ways do ask your master to write a book on this topic if he really thinks he is correct. LOL (I know he wont dare it :roll: )
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Biradar
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#770

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:49 pm

Just so there is one connected narrative, here is my analysis of STF's lecture on jinn.

As STF said, to fully understand this requires the belief that the Qur'an is the revelation of Allah and hence contains truth. However, the truth is not always obvious and requires some interpretation. In the Ismaili/Tayebbi formulation of Qur'anic interpretation, each verse in the Qur'an has both an outward meaning and several inward meanings. One must accept the truth of both. However, one must take care not to take words which have a conventional meaning in ordinary language and assume that when used in the Qur'an they mean the same thing. For example, the words "water" and "fire", "rab", or even "woman" may mean different things, based on the context they are used in the specific Qur'anic verses one is studying. Further, the Qur'an has a narrative structure that operates simultaneously at multiple levels. For example, some of the narrative occurs in the time before the physical universe was created, some occurs as the Prophet is going through various events in his life, some in the historical past. Often, these layers are mixed even in a single verse.

An example of this is the first verse of Surah al-Qadr (Q 97:1) "Truly we sent it [the Qur'an] down in the Night of Power". However, we know that the Qur'an was actually revealed over a period of more than twenty years during the Prophet's life. So how does one connect these two? In one interpretation, this verse indicates that the revelation of the Qur'an was actually instantaneous in the heart of the Prophet. The physical articulation of it in human language took longer, however. Another example is Prophet's statement "I was a prophet when Adam was between water and clay." What can this mean? Did not Adam come before Muhammad? Hence, space and time as we understand in the physical world has little relevance to some of the events mentioned in the Qur'an or in the Prophetic tradition. Muhammad is the Beloved One of Allah and, in a certain sense, along with Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain, has always existed and was always a prophet even before the physical universe was created.

Coming to the discussion on jinn. The word "jinn" is mentioned about 29 or so times in the Qur'an. In one place the Qur'an says that jinns are made from a "smokeless fire" (Q 55:15) and in one place "a scorching fire" (Q 15:27) and also in the same verse that they were made before humans. However, these verses are not to be taken literally. The "fire" here means many things and is the opposite of "water". Water is the symbol of the Divine Knowledge and its homologue, the earthly dawaat. Fire is it's opposite, i.e. Satanic Ignorance and its homologue, of dawaat's enemies. So, when STF says that some of the jinns are the souls of those who opposed the dawaat that is perfectly valid interpretation of these verses. In fact, the word "scorching" indicates the blackness of the soul of some jinn, as STF says in the lecture.

Note that if one paid any attention to what STF said, he said these are the wicked jinns. Clearly, there are others who are not wicked, and in fact, often help humans in some way or the others.

Also, the issue of creation of souls and their existence in the pre-physical time-line, is a complex one within the Qur'anic system of cosmogony. For example, in Q 7:172 Allah asks the "Children of Adam, from their loins", "Am I not your Lord?" and gets the reply "Yes! We beat witness". Now, one may ask were these souls or "particles" of the Children of Adam already created that Allah could ask them this question?

So, in the Qur'anic system before the creation of the physical time, "before" and "after" and "clay" and "fire" obviously do not mean what they mean in our earthly language. At the start of his lecture STF hints that the physical existence is for those beings (like ourselves) who did not immediately respond to the first call to acknowledge Divine Unity (tawheed) and participated in the "error of the hierophant" (as Henry Corbin puts it) and hence, had to take on physical forms so we could accept Islam and return back to our origin. The divinely guided dawaat is a means (analogous the ship of Noah) for this return and atonement of the error we made in the deeps before space-time itself was created.

Within this context one can ask the question: when Allah asked the yet-to-be born mankind "Am I not your Lord?" (Q 7:172) how could that be possible? And, in the same verse Allah says that he made them (the yet-to-be-born) mankind to testify so they do not say "truly of this we were heedless" on the Day of Resurrection. According to classical scholars of Islam, the Children of Adam said "Yes!" but not with the same sincerity. In the context of the creation of jinn, one can hence assume that despite this affirmation on the Day of "Alast" (which is what the event in Q 7:172 is often called) many will and did rebel and opposed Islam and may be the ones who reappeared as evil jinn. Now, the creation of the creatures that populate this universe (in the context of the Qur'an the two who can answer the call to Islam or oppose it) are humans and jinns. However, one must not confuse the physical appearance and bodies of humans with the nafs (soul) that occupies and animates it. In this sense, the creation of nafs is actually a unified process which occurs at the very instant of Emanation of the First Intellect. No distinctions are present at that time.

Coming to the Surah named "al-Jinn". This begins with a verse in which a "group of jinn listened [to the Qur'anic recitation by the Prophet] and said "Truly we have heard a wondrous Quran" and end up believing in the Qur'an and the Prophet. In fact, these jinn go on to affirm the typical Islamic beliefs that Allah has no wife or son. The jinn say "Truly the fool amongst us has uttered outrage against Allah". The "fool" here is Satan. However, this tale of redemption, i.e. a group of jinn who heard the Prophet and accepted his message is clearly within the interpretation that STF made in his lecture. (There are other interpretations and meanings too. In fact, I once took a 'sabak' from the former mukasir of SMB, Mr. Hussain Husamuddin in which this verse was discussed in detail, including it's interpretation and context).

Now, I have to say that taking these hints from the Qur'an (I mean about jinns) the Muslim cultures throughout the world have made an enormous cottage industry of classifying jinns, possessions by jinns and their exorcism, protection via amulets and charms etc. How much of this is actually strictly Qur'anic is not clear as much local legends and superstitions are mixed into popular beliefs about jinns. So one should not believe everything one hears or read and exercise some judgment and common-sense.

Finally, I have to say these lectures by STF are actually quite enjoyable in a sense. Clearly, the nature of Ismaili/Tayebbi philosophy does not allow him to give all the nuances (for example, about jinns or cosmogony etc) and thus opens up the possibility of misinterpretation by ahmaks, but that is fine. As they say, for a wise man even an indication is enough. While for a fool no amount of lessons will suffice.

Shabab
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#771

Unread post by Shabab » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:23 am

There are three makhlooq of ALLAH in this regards

INS
JIN
and Frishtas

there is thousands of Hadith on all above makhlooqs clearly distinguishing one from another, ISLAM or Quran does not care what some one wants to interrupt from its ayats. a fool can remain in delusion and other fools can continue enjoying his bullcrap.

Biradar
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#772

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:37 pm

Not that I want to belabor this discussion of the jinn, but I went back last night and reread some of my old notes form various 'sabaks' and books. It turns out, as I explained above, that within the Fatimid/Ismaili tradition the concept about jinns is not identical to the the main-stream Sunni or even Ithna-ashari concept of jinn. So if you want to stick to grazing on the fruit peels (random hadith found in Sunni books etc) and not the fruit itself (the interpretation by the Imams and the da'is), please don't read further.

Several major da'is of the time of the Imams have written about this topic, though, not in great length. In particular, two of the da'is works who I could consult (given the limited library access due to the COVID-19 restrictions) are Abu Ya'qub al-Sijistani and Nasir-i Khusraw. These were great da'is during the time of the Fatmid Imams. In particular, Nasir-i Khusraw studied under the very great (and important) da'i, Sayedna Mu'ayyad fid-Din al-Shirazi and was eventually appointed as the hujja in the Khorasan region. He mostly wrote in Persian and is typically less famous in the Tayebbi branch of Ismailism, than the Nizari branch. (This partly reflects the split also in languages that occurred between Tayebbi and Nizaris, the former sticking to classical Arabic, while the latter adopting Persian and then various Indic languages).

In any case, al-Sijistani discusses jinns within a radically esoteric framework in terms of Divine inspiration to "speaking prophets" (i.e. natiqs) which would be too tedious to explain here. Nasir-i Khusraw discusses the concept of jinn in more details. In particular, relevant to this discussion is the interpretation of the Qur'anic verse Q18:50: "... We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord ...". Now, even in classical Islamic literature this verse has been subject to vigorous debate. Why? Because Allah says "We said to the angels ..." and then when Iblees refuses to obey, he immediately says "He [Iblees] was of the jinn". So in the same verse, Iblees apparently is an angel (as angels were asked to prostrate) and the suddenly after his refusal, is called a jinn.

In fact, the Fatmid interpretation here is that the fact of disobedience (i.e. the opposition to the Primodial Dawaat of the First Adam) made Iblees a jinn. Hence, within this framework, one who disobeys and opposes the Dawaat becomes a jinn. Further, Nasir-i Khusraw says that this is true of humans also: they have a rational soul, which is potentially an angel, and an irascible and material souls that are potentially jinns or demons. Hence, if the rational soul is unable to control the demonic parts of one's soul (i.e. obey the dawaat and not oppose it) then the human becomes a demon (evil jinn) in actuality. This is exactly what STS said, though of course not in great detail.

The remaining part of the verse Q 18:50 is "Then will you take him [Iblees] and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you?". These "descendants" are the evil jinns who lead people astray. Now, as I said in my previous post on this topic, there is a correspondence to what happens in the Divine Realm (alam al-Ibda) and in the physical realm. Hence, when connected with the events of the Day of "Alast" it indicates that those who obey and disobey are in one-to-one correspondence both in the Divine Realm and physical world, and hence if one becomes a jinn by disobedience in the alam al-Ibda, so does one in the material realm (alam al-Hayuula).

Finally, I want to mention that al-Sijistani says that those who stick to the outward message only (i.e. the zahir) are the demons, i.e. the evil jinn, and led many people astray. No need to elaborate further. An subtle indication is enough for the wise, and no amounts of lessons will suffice for the fool.

I won't post more on jinns :) I am getting tired of this topic. Though, I think it may be valuable to post a exorcism charm to exorcise the evil female jinns possessing some of our members. :)

bohra_manus
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#773

Unread post by bohra_manus » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:55 pm

Great explanation Br. Biradar.
Thank you.

ajamali
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#774

Unread post by ajamali » Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:39 am

Biradar wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:37 pm Not that I want to belabor this discussion of the jinn, but I went back last night and reread some of my old notes form various 'sabaks' and books. It turns out, as I explained above, that within the Fatimid/Ismaili tradition the concept about jinns is not identical to the the main-stream Sunni or even Ithna-ashari concept of jinn. So if you want to stick to grazing on the fruit peels (random hadith found in Sunni books etc) and not the fruit itself (the interpretation by the Imams and the da'is), please don't read further.

Several major da'is of the time of the Imams have written about this topic, though, not in great length. In particular, two of the da'is works who I could consult (given the limited library access due to the COVID-19 restrictions) are Abu Ya'qub al-Sijistani and Nasir-i Khusraw. These were great da'is during the time of the Fatmid Imams. In particular, Nasir-i Khusraw studied under the very great (and important) da'i, Sayedna Mu'ayyad fid-Din al-Shirazi and was eventually appointed as the hujja in the Khorasan region. He mostly wrote in Persian and is typically less famous in the Tayebbi branch of Ismailism, than the Nizari branch. (This partly reflects the split also in languages that occurred between Tayebbi and Nizaris, the former sticking to classical Arabic, while the latter adopting Persian and then various Indic languages).

In any case, al-Sijistani discusses jinns within a radically esoteric framework in terms of Divine inspiration to "speaking prophets" (i.e. natiqs) which would be too tedious to explain here. Nasir-i Khusraw discusses the concept of jinn in more details. In particular, relevant to this discussion is the interpretation of the Qur'anic verse Q18:50: "... We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord ...". Now, even in classical Islamic literature this verse has been subject to vigorous debate. Why? Because Allah says "We said to the angels ..." and then when Iblees refuses to obey, he immediately says "He [Iblees] was of the jinn". So in the same verse, Iblees apparently is an angel (as angels were asked to prostrate) and the suddenly after his refusal, is called a jinn.

In fact, the Fatmid interpretation here is that the fact of disobedience (i.e. the opposition to the Primodial Dawaat of the First Adam) made Iblees a jinn. Hence, within this framework, one who disobeys and opposes the Dawaat becomes a jinn. Further, Nasir-i Khusraw says that this is true of humans also: they have a rational soul, which is potentially an angel, and an irascible and material souls that are potentially jinns or demons. Hence, if the rational soul is unable to control the demonic parts of one's soul (i.e. obey the dawaat and not oppose it) then the human becomes a demon (evil jinn) in actuality. This is exactly what STS said, though of course not in great detail.

The remaining part of the verse Q 18:50 is "Then will you take him [Iblees] and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you?". These "descendants" are the evil jinns who lead people astray. Now, as I said in my previous post on this topic, there is a correspondence to what happens in the Divine Realm (alam al-Ibda) and in the physical realm. Hence, when connected with the events of the Day of "Alast" it indicates that those who obey and disobey are in one-to-one correspondence both in the Divine Realm and physical world, and hence if one becomes a jinn by disobedience in the alam al-Ibda, so does one in the material realm (alam al-Hayuula).

Finally, I want to mention that al-Sijistani says that those who stick to the outward message only (i.e. the zahir) are the demons, i.e. the evil jinn, and led many people astray. No need to elaborate further. An subtle indication is enough for the wise, and no amounts of lessons will suffice for the fool.

I won't post more on jinns :) I am getting tired of this topic. Though, I think it may be valuable to post a exorcism charm to exorcise the evil female jinns possessing some of our members. :)
Thanks! That is an excellent explanation.

Khalaas
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:52 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#775

Unread post by Khalaas » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:11 pm

Thank you for the excellent simple and understandable explanation.

Shabab
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#776

Unread post by Shabab » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:48 pm

Biradar your writing skills are good but you have 0 substance, you don't even know that no SUNNI or SHIA thinks iblees was frista he was always a JIN, he was soo good in ibadat that ALLAH had given his freedom to stay with high-rank frishtas, so some times many scholars write iblees as fristas but he was JIN.

also all your write-up is flawed because there is a whole theology explaining different types of JIN communities and their habits and their living environment. so there is no way that the Human soul can be converted to JIN no matter how much "bhatkela" in taher language they are.

READ MORE before fooling others like taher.

Shabab
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#777

Unread post by Shabab » Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:14 pm

:?: :!:

SBM
Posts: 6429
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#778

Unread post by SBM » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:49 pm

Shabab wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:48 pm Biradar your writing skills are good but you have 0 substance, you don't even know that no SUNNI or SHIA thinks iblees was frista he was always a JIN, he was soo good in ibadat that ALLAH had given his freedom to stay with high-rank frishtas, so some times many scholars write iblees as fristas but he was JIN.

also all your write-up is flawed because there is a whole theology explaining different types of JIN communities and their habits and their living environment. so there is no way that the Human soul can be converted to JIN no matter how much "bhatkela" in taher language they are.

READ MORE before fooling others like taher.
It is good to write JIBRISH without giving any references. Unfortunately there is no cure for VERBAL DIARRHEA

Bohra spring
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#779

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:59 pm

Even you noticed what I noticed about youthfuls tantrums. Just attack the writer and his topic and then pause....

I cannot understand why stf will not come out clean on his uncles and grandfathers tyrannical reigns.

For him to show sincere and honesty he cannot on one hand claim intellectual superiority while on another side for populism keep STS and SMB glorified when it is clear their reigns were unislamic, corrupt and oppressive.

This is community needs more than a political solution between the cousins. He has to stop playing mind games, YouTube theology vs real leadership based on first principles.
SBM wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Shabab wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:48 pm Biradar your writing skills are good but you have 0 substance, you don't even know that no SUNNI or SHIA thinks iblees was frista he was always a JIN, he was soo good in ibadat that ALLAH had given his freedom to stay with high-rank frishtas, so some times many scholars write iblees as fristas but he was JIN.

also all your write-up is flawed because there is a whole theology explaining different types of JIN communities and their habits and their living environment. so there is no way that the Human soul can be converted to JIN no matter how much "bhatkela" in taher language they are.

READ MORE before fooling others like taher.
It is good to write JIBRISH without giving any references. Unfortunately there is no cure for VERBAL DIARRHEA