Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Dua for Momeen
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#91

Unread post by Dua for Momeen » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:21 pm

I personally dont have problem with sajda as long as people are aware what it is.

sajda done to Adam and Yusuf was sajda e taazim, and sajda for ALLAH is sajda e ibadat.

first explain every one about this and make sure they know what they are doing.
dropping down this whole concept wont harm much in 2016. nabi(s) had never accepted any sajda and no one can deny this.

Dua for Momeen.



fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

#92

Unread post by fayyaaz » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:16 pm

Dua for Momeen wrote:
sajda done to Adam and Yusuf was sajda e taazim, and sajda for ALLAH is sajda e ibadat.
Does the Quran distinguish between the two types of sajda? Of course it does not. In the Quran, Allah commands you do sajda only to Him.

But, what the heck! What has Quran got to with our religion? Our Quran is Mowla. If Mowla says "Do sajda to me", then it is wajib on mumineen to fall down prostrate to him and kiss every part of his anatomy and everything else that his anatomy touches, including his near and far family members. That is haqq. Just ask those who have had the privilege of doing it and they will say they were transported to heaven and were floating in air for days until the urge for another sajda to Mowla became unbearable. Their bank accounts would get depleted. But what is a penny compared to heaven?



Dua for Momeen
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am

#93

Unread post by Dua for Momeen » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:43 am

Does the Quran distinguish between the two types of sajda?
of course it does, read Quran again, there is no point if it doesnt, why would angels and parents of Yusuf will fall in sajda? before islam sajda was considered utmost respect for some one. but as I said this sajda e tazim should be eliminated completely no need to confuse people any more.

Dua for Momeen.



qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 992
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

#94

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:32 am

in days of slavery, slaves were required to prostate before thier masters.
they were also calling their owners as masters like aqua and so.
would like to know, if this can be called as shirk?



ParisBohra
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:11 am

#95

Unread post by ParisBohra » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:42 am

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... GfyuMISyS8

8 short clips from Syedna Fakhruddin first waaz, total 36 minutes

1. "The loss of basic human values"
2. Jihaad of Imaam Mansoor and Qutbuddin Maula
3. "If Bhai prepares him he will be ready"
4. Syedna Qutbuddin's Mohar of Sachhai
5. Zikr of Janaza and Dafan, Syedna Qutbuddin RA
6. The Philosophy of Shukr
7. Maulana Ali, Syedna Qutbuddin's Sajda and Doa
8. Dawat's true inclusion philosophy



Dua for Momeen
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am

#96

Unread post by Dua for Momeen » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:10 am

Zikr of Janaza and Dafan, Syedna Qutbuddin RA
In this video STF says, Qutbuddin mola in tasbeeh karo...this is what I dont understand about bohras any more, though I am born and brought up in this community, this is what makes me frustrated to follow any bohra leader any more.

have you guys forgotten Allah already?

why you never endorse tasbeeh of Allah and his zikr?

you guys have congested IMAAN and DEEN within STS,SMB,SMS,SKQ and now STF, nothing else you know, nothing more you want to know. your deen and your waez and Imaan is just about these few personalities. who will eventually die and mix up with dust.


how good it was if he would have said "hame ALLAH par tawwakkal kido, ane Allah e ehna rehmo karam si rasta kholi aapa."

you admit it or not, but you guys are promoting personality cult and not Islam.

STF is educated and well versed in Islamic knowledge, I hope he will bring some change and stop such personality cult and bring back bohras to islam. its time for him to rectify mistakes done by his elders.


Dua for Momeen.



UKMohammad
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:15 am

#97

Unread post by UKMohammad » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:22 am

Dua for Momeen wrote:
Zikr of Janaza and Dafan, Syedna Qutbuddin RA
In this video STF says, Qutbuddin mola in tasbeeh karo...this is what I dont understand about bohras any more, though I am born and brought up in this community, this is what makes me frustrated to follow any bohra leader any more.

have you guys forgotten Allah already?

why you never endorse tasbeeh of Allah and his zikr?
You need to watch all the videos as a whole instead of picking on one point and harping on about it. If you eat only salt you will find it salty but if you eat salt with food you will find it tasty.

Did you watch the "The Philosophy of Shukr" video? That one is all about thanking Allah for what he has given to you. But of course you ignore this.

Intercession (shafaat) of awliya is central to our religion. But it is not just central to Bohra religion, but also to other organisations also as a matter of practicality. If you want to meet CEO of Reliance, you cannot just walk into his office. You need to first take meeting with someone lower down and take their intercession. Through their intercession your conversation with CEO is expedited.

Similar with taking intercession (tasbih etc) of duat, we are not worshipping duat, but actually taking their intercession that Allah answers our prayers faster. Concept is very simple, no need to twist it into something it's not.

If interaction with God can always be so direct, then why does he need to send prophets and messengers? Why not just inform everybody directly into their hearts and mind on his own?



alivasan
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 9:28 am

#98

Unread post by alivasan » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:03 am

Dai should be vasila to get blessed by Allah. As cursed in STF Vaez, muffy and his ancestors are already burning in hellfire.



Dua for Momeen
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am

#99

Unread post by Dua for Momeen » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:29 am

I perfectly understand intersession and walayat concept in Islam and I have no issue with that.

but I guess its time for STF dawat to in-line bohras more to main stream Islam and teach people about importance of Allah and messengers(s) of Allah and not just his forefathers. also we all know these previous duats were not angels and masoom as they claim and they have made lots of blunder, STF should be brave enough to accept this and move forward. lets try to be human first and then claim to be angels.
prophets and messengers
lets not compare prophets and messengers with these duats, because no messenger or prophet ever created coloured safai chitthi, no messenger took money for kadam/talakki/zyafat. no messenger sold religious titles for money like sheikh and NKD. no messenger collected tons of gold for zarih and then that gold vanished in thin air, no messenger and prophet demanded special trains/helicopters and ships for travelling. no messenger and prophet took away house and then kicked the owner out of community (talking about saifi mahal). and no messenger wasted dawat money for hunting wild animals.


Dua for Momeen.



Fateh
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 am

#100

Unread post by Fateh » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:08 am

Dua for Momeen wrote:I perfectly understand intersession and walayat concept in Islam and I have no issue with that.

but I guess its time for STF dawat to in-line bohras more to main stream Islam and teach people about importance of Allah and messengers(s) of Allah and not just his forefathers. also we all know these previous duats were not angels and masoom as they claim and they have made lots of blunder, STF should be brave enough to accept this and move forward. lets try to be human first and then claim to be angels.
prophets and messengers
lets not compare prophets and messengers with these duats, because no messenger or prophet ever created coloured safai chitthi, no messenger took money for kadam/talakki/zyafat. no messenger sold religious titles for money like sheikh and NKD. no messenger collected tons of gold for zarih and then that gold vanished in thin air, no messenger and prophet demanded special trains/helicopters and ships for travelling. no messenger and prophet took away house and then kicked the owner out of community (talking about saifi mahal). and no messenger wasted dawat money for hunting wild animals.


Dua for Momeen.
I am totally agree with you dear,i also can not understand how we can do tasbi of maulla Ali (a.s.) in masjid which is home of almighty Allah?



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#101

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:22 am

Dua for Momeen wrote:I perfectly understand intersession and walayat concept in Islam and I have no issue with that.

but I guess its time for STF dawat to in-line bohras more to main stream Islam and teach people about importance of Allah and messengers(s) of Allah and not just his forefathers. also we all know these previous duats were not angels and masoom as they claim and they have made lots of blunder, STF should be brave enough to accept this and move forward. lets try to be human first and then claim to be angels.
prophets and messengers
lets not compare prophets and messengers with these duats, because no messenger or prophet ever created coloured safai chitthi, no messenger took money for kadam/talakki/zyafat. no messenger sold religious titles for money like sheikh and NKD. no messenger collected tons of gold for zarih and then that gold vanished in thin air, no messenger and prophet demanded special trains/helicopters and ships for travelling. no messenger and prophet took away house and then kicked the owner out of community (talking about saifi mahal). and no messenger wasted dawat money for hunting wild animals.

Dua for Momeen.
very well said !



Dua for Momeen
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am

#102

Unread post by Dua for Momeen » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:07 am

maulla Ali (a.s.) in masjid which is home of almighty Allah?
wilayete Ali(A), he was flawless. cant say same about these duats because of above mentioned reasons.

Dua for Momeen.



Dua for Momeen
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am

#103

Unread post by Dua for Momeen » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:38 am

very well said !
Shukran bro, I really hope that STF will be different and brave enough that in some waez he will openly declare that these things were wrong and he do tauba from it. and admit his forefathers were wrong in inventing such bidah in dawat.

Justice must prevail.

Dua for Momeen.



Ozdundee
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

#104

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:29 am

You tube video has been cropped to remove sajada. I would encourage them to not practice sajada in private too.

It is commendable we have someone in STF dawaat listening and responding. They pass the test of switched on and someone we can have dialogue with.

Overall STF is getting good feedback from abdes and admiration, in some cases envy that if only SMS was as charismatic as STF.



SBM
Posts: 6170
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#105

Unread post by SBM » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:07 am

Ozdundee wrote:You tube video has been cropped to remove sajada. I would encourage them to not practice sajada in private too.

It is commendable we have someone in STF dawaat listening and responding. They pass the test of switched on and someone we can have dialogue with.

Overall STF is getting good feedback from abdes and admiration, in some cases envy that if only SMS was as charismatic as STF.
That is the good step.
Now we know that besides Kothari Goons of SMS now STF leadership is paying attention to this forum
Atleast in the the case of STF, they realized what impression they are creating and they removed it if it was SMS Goons they would be sending Lanaats and let loose people like Adam and Saif53 defending their UNISLAMIC practices



Zali110
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat May 04, 2013 1:27 pm

#106

Unread post by Zali110 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:24 am

SBM wrote:
Ozdundee wrote:You tube video has been cropped to remove sajada. I would encourage them to not practice sajada in private too.

It is commendable we have someone in STF dawaat listening and responding. They pass the test of switched on and someone we can have dialogue with.

Overall STF is getting good feedback from abdes and admiration, in some cases envy that if only SMS was as charismatic as STF.
That is the good step.
Now we know that besides Kothari Goons of SMS now STF leadership is paying attention to this forum
Atleast in the the case of STF, they realized what impression they are creating and they removed it if it was SMS Goons they would be sending Lanaats and let loose people like Adam and Saif53 defending their UNISLAMIC practices

Mr SBM
Praying lanaat is practice of Islam , it is mentioned in Quran multiple times infact more then 100 times i searched quran and found so many ayaats which clearly states lanaat of Allah , his angels and those he has given right to Give lanaat ( Curse )
This ayaat will prove me right and you false

Indeed
ان الذين يكتمون ما انزلنا من البينات والهدى من بعد ما بيناه للناس في الكتاب اولئك يلعنهم الله ويلعنهم اللاعنون
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse,

YUSUF ALI
Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-

SHAKIR
Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).

DR. GHALI
Surely (the ones) who keep back whatever supreme evidences and guidance We have sent down even after We have made them evident to mankind in the Book, Allah curses those (people), and the cursers (also) curse them.

PICKTHALL
Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#107

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:54 am

Sajda has been discussed in this forum many times. The bohras love to compare their sajda with the sajda of the angels to Adam and the sajda of Yusuf's family to Yusuf (as). But like everything else that is wrong with the bohra religion this is wrong too. First, sajda to Adam was a command of Allah to the angels. Adam (as) himself did not demand sajda to him. Then we skip a few prophets (as) where there is no sajda and come to Yusuf (as) who did not demand a sajda but his family fell in sajda due to gratitude. Infact when he told his father about his dream he was told to keep it a secret. The bohra fraud dais have made this sajda mandatory for them. This is the ultimate shirk and unfortunately the bohras wont be able to claim innocence for this practice.

There is no sajda during the time of the prophet (saw) or the earlier Dais. This was introduced by the last few frauds to elevate their own status.

Intercession is another fraudulent concept as taught to the Bohras. Intercession is not a pillar of Islam and is not the center of faith. Allah says clearly in the Quran for those looking forward to meeting with their lord, do good deeds and stay away from shirk. Surah kahf ayah 110.

Intercession will be required for those pathetic souls who didnt do anything of note. Besides the prophet (saw) is the only intercessor you would need if your deeds fail you. The dais are frauds they will themselves be needing intercession. Intercession should be counted upon as the last resort on your death bed. Before that, make istighfar and start doing good deeds and above all stop doing shirk. Anyone who claims that they can intercede on your behalf that is the first person you should run away from.

Then comes the example of the CEO. This example is taught to the bohras with abcdefg. They all know about it. If the CEO doesnt want to meet you, you can go to a different company or start your own company and become its CEO yourself. CEOs are not better than you. This is the reason why the fraud dai doesnt meet with his abdes cause he considers himself the CEO. Allah says in the quran that he is closer to you than your jugular. He also says that the others that you call on besides Him to help you cannot help you. These are clear ayas in the Quran.

Even after what has happened in front of their eyes the bohras choose to remain ignorant. The split should've been an eye opener that both the parties are frauds. But alas. This was a sign from Allah almighty for those with Aql. I guess we can count the bohras out.
Last edited by anajmi on Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#108

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:10 am

وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُونَ نَصْرَكُمْ وَلآ أَنفُسَهُمْ يَنْصُرُونَ

7:197

Sahih International: And those you call upon besides Him are unable to help you, nor can they help themselves."

Pickthall: They on whom ye call beside Him have no power to help you, nor can they help you, nor can they help themselves.

Yusuf Ali: "But those ye call upon besides Him, are unable to help you, and indeed to help themselves."

Shakir: And those whom you call upon besides Him are not able to help you, nor can they help themselves.

Muhammad Sarwar: The idols which you (the pagans) worship besides God can neither help you nor themselves.

Mohsin Khan: "And those whom you call upon besides Him (Allah) cannot help you nor can they help themselves."

Arberry: And those on whom you call, apart from God, have no power to help you, neither they help themselves.'



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#109

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:32 am

Here is another beautiful ayah that demonstrates the worthlessness of the Dais and your Imams that you are depending upon instead of Allah.

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ ضُرِبَ مَثَلٌ فَاسْتَمِعُوا لَهُ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَن يَخْلُقُوا ذُبَابًا وَلَوِ اجْتَمَعُوا لَهُ وَإِن يَسْلُبْهُمُ الذُّبَابُ شَيْئًا لَّا يَسْتَنقِذُوهُ مِنْهُ ضَعُفَ الطَّالِبُ وَالْمَطْلُوبُ (22:73)

O MEN! A parable is set forth [herewith]; hearken, then, to it! Behold, those beings whom you invoke instead of God cannot create [as much as] a fly, even were they to join all their forces to that end! And if a fly robs them of anything, they cannot [even] rescue it from him! Weak indeed is the seeker, and [weak] the sought!

وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ وَنَعْلَمُ مَا تُوَسْوِسُ بِهِ نَفْسُهُ وَنَحْنُ أَقْرَبُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ حَبْلِ الْوَرِيدِ (50:16)

NOW, VERILY, it is We who have created man, and We know what his innermost self whispers within him: for We are closer to him than his neck-vein.



Ozdundee
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

#110

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:46 pm

In the process of compromise and transition Bohras both abdes and many progressive are fixated that they need a leader and want him called Diai. I have met educated people and they have said they need Moula in their faith. Now though this is not Islamic mandate it is people especially our communityneed a human intercession.

To make progress and out of human decency how can we leave SMS on that role.With his recent outburst who knows what goes in his mind it is like living Idi Amin in Power . SMS is capable of worse damage to our future if left unchallenged or controlled . STF is the option , who else ? . People know SMS is not the best, they still some how think STS and SMB were perfect SMS is not SMB, but what is stopping them switching loyalty. The movement is just not there yet.

I recently advised my relatives to remove SMS portrait they agreed but not SMB. They just could not.
But when I said what about putting up SKQ or STF potrait could they be convinced I was unable to. When pushed they said not yet, but they did not say never.Just for the test I was able to put Allah name where the empty hook was. I hope it remains as test.

Maybe we as reformist need to tickle SMS more to crack or STF needs to elbow and push SMS. Bohra are sheep who will stay in the farm as long as there is grass don't care if they being fattened for slaughter, not dogs who are looking for a break in the fence and explore.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#111

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:11 pm

The problem with the bohras is the lack of understanding of the Quran. And that is the first thing that the devil, disguised as the bohra Dai, removed from the bohra heart. The understanding of the Quran, which is a duty of every muslim, is now prohibited by the bohra Dai.



Wajid
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

#112

Unread post by Wajid » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:27 pm

Anajmi bhai salaams,
I do not want to create a polemic over the subject, but I can produce an ayah to refute your arguments over intercession.

اللَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لَا تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلَا نَوْمٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مَن ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِندَهُ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلَّا بِمَا شَاءَ وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَلَا يَئُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ

Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

There is never going to be a consensus on this topic. I always maintain that in the end, it depends on ones conviction and what one is most at peace with. The following ayah reflects the same ...

لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللَّهُ سَمِي
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

In Gujarati, there is a saying that goes : "koi apni maa ne daakan nathi kehtu "
Every Muslim "sect" will jump to prove his point. So please, stop promoting your opinion on this site. The concept of "shafaat" or intercession is central to the Shia ideology. Only the Wahhabis have problem with this concept.

"Kulu and Gulu" both are equally repugnant.

Amongst Bohras, the most prevalent is "Gulu" there by the Dai is elevated to the position of Allah. this was promoted by the Kothar to forward their nefarious agenda.
This is exactly the concept that SKQ (ra) tried to correct. If you listen to his bayans, you will get this tasawwur.

What you advocate is "Kulu" whereby you belittle the rutbas of Ahlulbait of RasoolUllah and the Imams.

FiAmanIllah.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#113

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:36 pm

Dear Bro Wajid, Salaams to you too. There are many such ayahs that talk about intercession in the Quran. But in every single ayah, the ayah says like this - "There will be no intercession, except with the permission of the Lord". Read the ayah carefully. The rule is that there will be no intercession. Then comes the exception. Even if there is, it will be with his permission. As you correctly pointed out the bohras have converted the exception into the rule and made it central to their ideology and have doomed themselves at the hands of their fraud leaders.

Let me explain with this analogy. Let us say my son is wasting his time playing video games all the time. One day, I decide to take action. I tell him - "You will not play video games unless and until I give you permission". Now, if my son were a bohra - he would say - my father has told me that playing video games is essential to my existence!!!



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#114

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:00 pm

Some other ayahs for your consideration.

وَاتَّقُواْ يَوْماً لاَّ تَجْزِي نَفْسٌ عَن نَّفْسٍ شَيْئاً وَلاَ يُقْبَلُ مِنْهَا شَفَاعَةٌ وَلاَ يُؤْخَذُ مِنْهَا عَدْلٌ وَلاَ هُمْ يُنصَرُونَ (2:48)

and remain conscious of [the coming of] a Day when no human being shall in the least avail another, nor shall INTERCESSION be accepted from any of them, nor ransom taken from them, and none shall be succoured.

وَاتَّقُواْ يَوْماً لاَّ تَجْزِي نَفْسٌ عَن نَّفْسٍ شَيْئاً وَلاَ يُقْبَلُ مِنْهَا عَدْلٌ وَلاَ تَنفَعُهَا شَفَاعَةٌ وَلاَ هُمْ يُنصَرُونَ (2:123)

and remain conscious of [the coming of] a Day when no human being shall in the least avail another, nor shall ransom be accepted from any of them, nor shall INTERCESSION be of any use to them, and none shall be succoured.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَنفِقُواْ مِمَّا رَزَقْنَاكُم مِّن قَبْلِ أَن يَأْتِيَ يَوْمٌ لاَّ بَيْعٌ فِيهِ وَلاَ خُلَّةٌ وَلاَ شَفَاعَةٌ وَالْكَافِرُونَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (2:254)

O YOU who have attained to faith! Spend [in Our way] out of what We have granted you as sustenance ere there come a Day [246] when there will be no bargaining, and no friendship, and no INTERCESSION. And they who deny the truth -it is they who are evildoers!

After such clear ayahs in the Quran, how did intercession become central to the shia ideology? By the way, I am not denying intercession. But to make it central to your ideology is a grave mistake.
Last edited by anajmi on Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wajid
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

#115

Unread post by Wajid » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:01 pm

anajmi wrote: ... "There will be no intercession, except with the permission of the Lord". Read the ayah carefully. The rule is that there will be no intercession. Then comes the exception....
If only Rasoolullah (saw) is given this right, then what happens to the generations born after the death is Rasoolullah (saw). Yes, for us, this permission is for the Imam uz Zamaan.
Now please do not open up another debate on the whereabouts of the Imam us Zamaan...

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا

One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

FiAmanillah



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#116

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:08 pm

The point is very simple actually. You are not the one to choose your intercessor. Allah makes it clear in the Quran. You are assuming that your Imam uz Zamaan has the permission to intercede on your behalf and by doing that you have denied every ayah of the Quran that talks about intercession. I know the prophet (saw) has the permission to intercede because that is what the prophet (saw) has told us and that is what the Quran confirms where Allah says that the prophet (saw) has been sent as a mercy to all mankind not just the people who were there during his time.

The other key thing to think about is that bohras have assumed that the intercession of their intercessors will be accepted. Who gave them this guarantee? We all know the Dawoodi Bohras are wrong, because the Alavi Bohras are the true bohras!!



Wajid
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

#117

Unread post by Wajid » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:24 pm

OK. I think we must stop. As I have mentioned earlier, we are poles apart and will not converge on this topic.

All I can tell you is : refrain from "Kulu and Gulu".

FiAmanillah



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#118

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:35 pm

It is a pity that ayahs from the Quran appear "kulu" and "gulu" to you. My suggestion to you is don't stop. Keep searching. If you relax thinking that SKQ or STK or CBS or NBC is going to intercede on your behalf and it turns out that SMS was the right Dai all along, you will be screwed.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#119

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:57 pm

By the way, the Imam uz Zamaan, didn't show up to confirm the correct Dai did he? You seriously think he will show up when things get really hot?



Wajid
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

#120

Unread post by Wajid » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:15 pm

Salam bhai,
Do not worry about my salvation !
No intercession is useful if your aamal are not good. And if your footing is not right, you will not benefit. And let us stop our arguments as it will lead nowhere.

فَلِذَٰلِكَ فَادْعُ وَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ وَقُلْ آمَنتُ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ مِن كِتَابٍ وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَعْدِلَ بَيْنَكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّنَا وَرَبُّكُمْ لَنَا أَعْمَالُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَالُكُمْ لَا حُجَّةَ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ اللَّهُ يَجْمَعُ بَيْنَنَا وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ

Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.

FiAmanillah