Taher Fakhruddin missteps

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babdeen
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:07 pm

Taher Fakhruddin missteps

#1

Unread post by babdeen » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:53 pm

Important announcement from Syedna BAB Deen

Dear Mumin brothers, sisters and your kids: Many salams (with love, not money)

Since our ridiculing of the claim of being “INFALLIBLE”, both Dais have put that bogus claim on the back burner (perhaps for now). However, we have a very sad thing to report to the community. Syedna claimant Taher Fakhruddin has come up with the following to control interpretation of Quran by him. In the latest Sijill (#127) newsletter dated July 15, 2016, he claims as follows:

The text of the Quran is timeless - it is applicable even today, fourteen hundred years later. The same applies to the Shari’at that was revealed to Rasulullah SA. How does it apply today?
The differences that have arisen over the years have been primarily due to diverging interpretations of the Quran and by extension, the intent of Shar’iat stipulations.
We are fortunate that our Imams have taught us the correct understanding of the Qur’an and interpretation of the rules of Shariat. The Quran itself asserts “ask the people of the book – the progeny of Rasulullah – if you do not know” (Surat al-Anbiya’: 7). Just as Rasulullah was the authority on revelation – no one else could claim that an ayat of the Quran was revealed to them – Rasulullah’s Wasi was the authority on the meaning and intent of the Quran – no one else except his Wasi should have claimed that they could explain the meaning and intent of an ayat of the Qur’an. Every Imam in the progeny of Muhammad and Ali holds the authority to explain the correct understanding of the Qur’an and Shari’at. In the Imam’s seclusion this authority is vested in the Dai al-Mutlaq.

Here are the problems with what he claims:
(1) He claims in addition to Quran, Shariat was revealed to Rasullah.
(2) He claims that Rasullah’s wasi is the authority on meaning and intent of Quran. He emphasizes no one can make that claim.
(3) Then he refutes himself and says every Imam holds the authority to explain the correct understanding of the Quran and Shariat.
(4) Then he says in the Imam’s seclusion, this authority is vested in Dai.

Those who have met Taher Fakhruddin (before he became Dai) say he is an educated and decent man. He had worked hard to earn a living and raise a family. He was as normal and human as any one of us. Then he became Dai. Now, I am shocked to see such bizarre and confusing claims by him. There is no way he can claim to be the guy on earth with the authority to interpret the Quran. So, I am worried. Either this Syedna business has gone to his head. Or he has seen the masses in India following Muffadal camp and decided that claiming such powers is a must to effectively compete against him. The good news is Taher Fakhruddin has just proven that he is fallible.
Let me make it very clear. The Quran was revealed to Rasullah for all Muslims to read, understand and practice. In previous sabaq’s we have made it clear that you want to be a good Mulsim, do good things. If you want learn, get a good translation or two. Make an honest attempt and live your life accordingly. It is not that hard.
Any claim to be sole in-charge of interrelation of Quran or Shariat is a delusional scheme by people who are in religion business. Do not be fooled by them. Such claims have been made by others and in many religions and none have survived the test of time or good reading of scriptures of those religions.
Your “Religion is not a business” Syedna BAB (Born again Bohra) Deen
Date: July 19, 2016
Disclosure: Fatemi dawat was given an opportunity to review and respond. They claimed I misunderstood and asked for a conversation soon.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#2

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:22 pm

taher fakhruddin is the fruit of the same tree as sms, i.e. from taher saifuddin and burhanuddin. the apple cannot fall very far from its tree now, can it?



tipu sultan
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:24 pm

#3

Unread post by tipu sultan » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:26 pm

Dawoodi Bohra have bad luck....no salvation. Out of the frying pan. These SXXs need to be sorted out .The damage they are causing is beyond repair.

Last night a family caught up with a friend from India ...this how the conversation started...and this is a result of enlightened people have been conned too often we are a drift.

see how bohras are filtering association

guest...we are big businessmen....do you stay near murcuz...do you go to murcuz and meet people....no we don't ..how is bohra politics...no we don't practise religion..no Ramzan, no muharam. .do you drink, ee are social drinkers..pause ...what do you do on weekends. ..we have get to gathers with like minded...

host... we are professionals....yes we do 20km.... yes culturally. ..do you....we don't we attend Muslims across the board...do you practise at home...ok we are not Bohra ortho but we are practising Muslims no we don't drink ...pause now what....dinner go to community centres Muslim sometime big night Bohra murcuz. ..



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#4

Unread post by I Rizwan » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:42 am

He is money manager and my fellow colleague in stock and financial trading.

I hope he sticks with this noble and profitable profession and do not indulge in lootmaar and lying business of his uncle burhanuddin and father khuzaima.

speak truth to the world and earn halaal and stay happy.

AND YES QURAN IS FOR WHOLE UMMAH AND NO ONE PARTICULAR HAS ANY COPY RIGHTS ON UNDERSTANDING QURAN AND HADITH.



SBM
Posts: 6157
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#5

Unread post by SBM » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:47 am

I hope he sticks with this noble and profitable profession
A noble profession, yea right...
Ask many around the world who lost their life savings because of the greedy MONEY MANAGER MANIPULATORS
So now we know IRZ is greedy money monger big talk and no action :evil: :twisted: :mrgreen:
s
peak truth to the world and earn halaal and stay happy
Halal and Truth does not mesh with Money Managers :lol:



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 305
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#6

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:38 am

Have any of you made the attempt to meet STF since he became Dai? I met him recently and found him to be the same as before. A man of wit, wisdom and good humor. It is funny how people are willing to turn on a dime and spew hatred without verifiable facts. The Sijill quotes above are basic Bohra doctrine. We hear it in every waaz and I have grown up hearing it since I was a child - nothing new. One can hardly expect the Bohra Dai to veer away from Bohra doctrine. I exist in both the STF and MS worlds and I find The Qutbuddins to be excellent human beings - good character, humility and intellectualism personified. I only see growing superstition, money mongering and fear mongering in the MS world and an attempt to portray MS as super human because he certainly cannot lay claim to be a high quality human!! I must say I am disappointed at the ridiculous analysis of the Sijill article here. If you don't want to follow the Bohra doctrine, you are free to follow the hundreds of other sects that are out there. The analysis presented here is wrong because it is not in the context of time. The Bohra doctrine outlines the wasi as the interpreter of the Quran in his time and the subsequent imams in their times and the dai al Mutlaqeen in the period of the imam's seclusion. Anyone who thinks that the Quran does not need interpretation in the age of space travel, artificial insemination and polar habitation is kidding himself. If you have issues with Bohra doctrine, perhaps you should become a Sunni and try and figure out yourself which of the tens of "resolutions" of modern day issues you should follow.



seeker110
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#7

Unread post by seeker110 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:21 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote:Have any of you made the attempt to meet STF since he became Dai? I met him recently and found him to be the same as before. A man of wit, wisdom and good humor. It is funny how people are willing to turn on a dime and spew hatred without verifiable facts. The Sijill quotes above are basic Bohra doctrine. We hear it in every waaz and I have grown up hearing it since I was a child - nothing new. One can hardly expect the Bohra Dai to veer away from Bohra doctrine. I exist in both the STF and MS worlds and I find The Qutbuddins to be excellent human beings - good character, humility and intellectualism personified. I only see growing superstition, money mongering and fear mongering in the MS world and an attempt to portray MS as super human because he certainly cannot lay claim to be a high quality human!! I must say I am disappointed at the ridiculous analysis of the Sijill article here. If you don't want to follow the Bohra doctrine, you are free to follow the hundreds of other sects that are out there. The analysis presented here is wrong because it is not in the context of time. The Bohra doctrine outlines the wasi as the interpreter of the Quran in his time and the subsequent imams in their times and the dai al Mutlaqeen in the period of the imam's seclusion. Anyone who thinks that the Quran does not need interpretation in the age of space travel, artificial insemination and polar habitation is kidding himself. If you have issues with Bohra doctrine, perhaps you should become a Sunni and try and figure out yourself which of the tens of "resolutions" of modern day issues you should follow.

He maybe enjoyable in a picnic gathering. Doesnt qualify him for the post of a leader. Besides , he is too rich with public money. An automatic disqualification.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 305
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#8

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:40 pm

seeker110 wrote:
objectiveobserver53 wrote:Have any of you made the attempt to meet STF since he became Dai? I met him recently and found him to be the same as before. A man of wit, wisdom and good humor. It is funny how people are willing to turn on a dime and spew hatred without verifiable facts. The Sijill quotes above are basic Bohra doctrine. We hear it in every waaz and I have grown up hearing it since I was a child - nothing new. One can hardly expect the Bohra Dai to veer away from Bohra doctrine. I exist in both the STF and MS worlds and I find The Qutbuddins to be excellent human beings - good character, humility and intellectualism personified. I only see growing superstition, money mongering and fear mongering in the MS world and an attempt to portray MS as super human because he certainly cannot lay claim to be a high quality human!! I must say I am disappointed at the ridiculous analysis of the Sijill article here. If you don't want to follow the Bohra doctrine, you are free to follow the hundreds of other sects that are out there. The analysis presented here is wrong because it is not in the context of time. The Bohra doctrine outlines the wasi as the interpreter of the Quran in his time and the subsequent imams in their times and the dai al Mutlaqeen in the period of the imam's seclusion. Anyone who thinks that the Quran does not need interpretation in the age of space travel, artificial insemination and polar habitation is kidding himself. If you have issues with Bohra doctrine, perhaps you should become a Sunni and try and figure out yourself which of the tens of "resolutions" of modern day issues you should follow.

He maybe enjoyable in a picnic gathering. Doesnt qualify him for the post of a leader. Besides , he is too rich with public money. An automatic disqualification.
A picnic gathering? Taking on Goliath, continuing to fight him in court, leading a people without compromising on principle, doing two hour waaz after having worked all day, hardly qualifies as a picnic. How many real leaders have the progressives produced so far and what is their state? They have had a 50-70 year head start? i think SKQ/STF have more cohesion in their little communities and more of our heritage than any progressive group. And I don't see them as the blind superstitious lot MS leads either. The majority of STF followers seem to be wide awake and vigilant to mistakes of the past even though a few still cling to the old habits.



seeker110
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#9

Unread post by seeker110 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:57 am

"Work" is such a vague word when it comes from the descendants of STS family.

The progressives produced Abbas Aurangabadi and many others. They wear proper attire. They dont sing about their Chore family.

Most of the people (TF) that I have come across are members of his own extended family and people dreaming of future Amil positions. The rest are employed by him or are partners in his business endeavors.



SBM
Posts: 6157
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#10

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:21 am

They have had a 50-70 year head start?
Except they did NOT have community's money at their disposal for over 100 years and King's life style residing in Saify MAHAL
Please do not compare Apples to Oranges.
The majority of STF followers seem to be wide awake and vigilant to mistakes of the past even though a few still cling to the old habits.
Not True either--One of their biggest supporter Taizoon Shakir just ditched them and joined SMS group, that says a lot..



Wajid
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

#11

Unread post by Wajid » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:13 pm

SBM wrote:
Not True either--One of their biggest supporter Taizoon Shakir just ditched them and joined SMS group, that says a lot..
Salaams to all,

I'm an often amazed how people like to give loose comments on matters they do not know or even not concerned about. TS has flip flopped many a times for the reasons he knows best...

All it says is reflected in the below ayah :

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا ثُمَّ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا ثُمَّ ازْدَادُوا كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللَّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلَا لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلًا
Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way.

The rest Allahu Aa'lam

FiAmanillah



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 305
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#12

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:21 pm

seeker110 wrote:"Work" is such a vague word when it comes from the descendants of STS family.

The progressives produced Abbas Aurangabadi and many others. They wear proper attire. They dont sing about their Chore family.

Most of the people (TF) that I have come across are members of his own extended family and people dreaming of future Amil positions. The rest are employed by him or are partners in his business endeavors.
I have had the good fortune of getting to know STF well in the recent past. I believe he is the hardest working man I know and I work in corporate America which sets the bar on work ethics.... And if they sing the praise of their family, it is because there is much to praise. I understand from your perspective there is much to lament but I want to focus on the future and one cannot make one generation pay for the perceived and real mistakes of their forefathers. I have also had the good fortune to get to know a large number of FD followers recently. NOT A SINGLE is interested in becoming an aamil. The only one that may have been interested is Taizoon Shakir, who is not part of FD any more. The business partners are here because they witnessed the integrity of the Qutbuddins in their business dealings and they had no reason not to believe in SKQ when he said nass was done on him. But I also met many honorable mumineen who came to SKQ never having known him well before. The reasons have been well discussed on this forum and elsewhere.



seeker110
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#13

Unread post by seeker110 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:00 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
seeker110 wrote:"Work" is such a vague word when it comes from the descendants of STS family.

The progressives produced Abbas Aurangabadi and many others. They wear proper attire. They dont sing about their Chore family.

Most of the people (TF) that I have come across are members of his own extended family and people dreaming of future Amil positions. The rest are employed by him or are partners in his business endeavors.
I have had the good fortune of getting to know STF well in the recent past. I believe he is the hardest working man I know and I work in corporate America which sets the bar on work ethics.... And if they sing the praise of their family, it is because there is much to praise. I understand from your perspective there is much to lament but I want to focus on the future and one cannot make one generation pay for the perceived and real mistakes of their forefathers. I have also had the good fortune to get to know a large number of FD followers recently. NOT A SINGLE is interested in becoming an aamil. The only one that may have been interested is Taizoon Shakir, who is not part of FD any more. The business partners are here because they witnessed the integrity of the Qutbuddins in their business dealings and they had no reason not to believe in SKQ when he said nass was done on him. But I also met many honorable mumineen who came to SKQ never having known him well before. The reasons have been well discussed on this forum and elsewhere.

I admire your tenacity, You, yourself seem to be a nice person. The thing is that we have been betrayed by so many of the religious leaders in the last few decades, it is difficult and unimaginable the bull/s that continues to goes on in our masjids. I worry for the children, they need to be free range in their daily life. The system set up's by the previous Dai's are oppressive, worthless and down right stupid.

If our knowledgeable Dai agrees and drops the so called ruthless aggression of the poor masses. More power to him.

I need to see his actions,than, and only than I will forget the sins of his forefathers. It will take time, however, with lifting few restrictions, at present time will let us know of his intentions.

By the way, I had so many teachers who could speak flawlessly for more than two hours, every day.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 305
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#14

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:20 pm

^^^^ The way I see it, if my children can grow up following the example set by the Qutbuddin family, I would count myself fortunate. If they can have them as their role models, they would have some fine goals to work towards. The MS world is ugly in the sentiments and it is getting more and more isolated and disconnected from the world of big thinkers and high achievers. It looks like the success stories of yesteryear may not be possible to repeat in future generations. I am seeing a community in decline and it is scary.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#15

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:11 pm

babdeen wrote:Here are the problems with what he claims:
(1) He claims in addition to Quran, Shariat was revealed to Rasullah.
(2) He claims that Rasullah’s wasi is the authority on meaning and intent of Quran. He emphasizes no one can make that claim.
(3) Then he refutes himself and says every Imam holds the authority to explain the correct understanding of the Quran and Shariat.
(4) Then he says in the Imam’s seclusion, this authority is vested in Dai.
You have summarized things well. However, being unable to understand anything of the philosophical and religious position of Shi'as in general, and Ismaili/Bohras in particular, you did not comprehend the simple message. You represent a certain sort of ignorant "progressive" who reacts in a knee-jerk fashion, having very little knowledge of the subject you are talking about.

Let me explain: the Qur'an is a complex book. Most Muslims do not speak Arabic, and, even if they do, the classical Arabic of the Qur'an is very different than the various dialects spoken today. One could learn classical Arabic, but would not help very much either, as much secondary literature is needed to obtain a proper understanding of the Qur'an.

Hence, if you wish to understand the Qur'an you must read a translation. Every translation actually does two things: first, it changes the language, and second, it imposes the interpretation of the translator on the reader. Hence, one sees numerous translations, each differing from each other and very often even in meaning.

Now, to extricate oneself from this babel of translations one can look at the tafsir literature. Here, one feels overwhelmed. The tafsir literature is enormous, and even the most widely read tafsir, Tafsir ibn Kathir, runs into 10 volumes with copious footnotes and addenda. One must ask oneself why such a "simple" book needs 10 volumes as explanation. This is particularly striking when one considers that the Qur'an is not a big book, and in fact as scriptures go, a rather short one at that.

An independent study of the Qur'anic text is next to impossible. One must rely on historical context, revelation order (the Qur'an is not written down in the order it was revealed) and the various schools which each understood its message differently.

In this scenario, who should one trust? Now please understand the question here is not one of understanding the literal text, which perhaps one can do from translations, but the deeper meaning, the interpretation of the text in its historical context, its application to the modern world (which is dramatically different than the nomadic desert culture of Arabia) and, for Shi'as, the explication of the symbolic meaning which are hidden.

During the lifetime of the Prophet this question had a simple answer. After he died, his waasi and successor, Mawlana Ali was the inheritor of the true meaning of the Qur'an, meaning which did not lay in the physical text but the heart of the Prophet. In addition, Ali was the master and initiator of the cyle of taawil, while the Prophet was the sole and only receptor of the taanzil (revelation of the text of the Qur'an). The revelation of the Qur'an was for the Prophet and Prophet only. No one else. In the same way, the explication of the symbolic meanings (taawil), the allusions to depths was for Ali and Ali only. No one else.

Ali was the foundation of the Imamat. We recite this every day after every prayer in the Taqarrub dua, in which we state that "Mawlana Ali al-Murtaza, [is the] foundation of the imamate, his wasi, and your wali". Ali is the waasi of the Prophet, and also the imitator of the chain of Imams in the era of the Prophet. (Of course, the chain of Imams was always present, but its foundation in the cycle of Muhammad was Ali).

After the martyrdom of Ali, the cycle of the Imams commenced, with Imam Hassan (AS) being the first Imam, then Imam Hussain and after than the Imamat will pass from father to son till the cycle of Muhammad comes to an end. (Ali's position is higher than that of an Imam as he is also the waasi of the Prophet). The Imams, being the inheritors of the knowledge of Ali are hence the only ones authorized to interpret the symbolic meaning (taawil) of the Qur'an and, in addition, to explain its context, the authentic history of its revelation and the correct application to the times.

Now, after Imam Aamir was killed, the Imamat entered a period of seclusion. There was a previous period of seclusion too, but during that time the Imam was in contact with his da'is directly. In the current period of seclusion, Imam Aamir instructed, via subtle indications, his hujja, Maulatena al-Ḥurrātu l-Malikah, to establish the succession of da'is who would run the dawaat in the seclusion of the Imam. This established the chain of duat mutlaqeen, i.e. da'is with absolute authority. Unlike the earlier period of seclusion, there was a single da'i al-mutlaq, who exercised the same authority as the Imam. Hence, the da'i al-mutlaq is said to be "seated on the throne of Imamat" and, for all practical purposes, exercise the same authority as the Imam himself.

Hence, during the seclusion of the Imam, the da'i exercises the same role of interpreter of the Qur'an and Shaaria. In particular, the explication of the symbolic meaning of the Qur'an is only his right. The da'i does this via inspiration from the Imam. Note that in the first period of seclusion the da'is (there were several at the same time) got direct instructions from the Imam, in the form of letters and even direct verbal instructions. In this period, by contrast, the connection between the da'i and the Imam is more subtle: a matter of inspiration rather than physical messages.

Also, as the world we live in now is significantly different than the one in which the Prophet and his companions did, some amount of interpretation is needed to understand how the shaaria and Qur'anic injunctions are to be applied today. The da'i does this.

You, of course, are free to do whatever you like. However, when you call the most fundamental job of the da'i a "misstep" you are showing your ignorance of the philosophical and religious underpinnings of our religion.

I know this won't suffice for the OP (nothing will as he has already chosen his path), but for I hope this clarifies things for those who wanted to know more.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#16

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:16 pm

SBM wrote: Not True either--One of their biggest supporter Taizoon Shakir just ditched them and joined SMS group, that says a lot..
What makes you think that Taizoon Shakir was "their biggest supporter"? I mean, did he do anything for the cause of Fatemi Dawat? TS is a very confused and lonely person. He has suffered greatly at the hands of Dawedar Mr. Muffadal Saiffudin (DMMS) and his mental state is probably very delicate. It is clear that his flip-flopping has nothing to do with logic and reason, but is simply a matter of some internal personal issues which none of us are privy to.



tipu sultan
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:24 pm

#17

Unread post by tipu sultan » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:19 pm

STF had an opportunity to be different and take the community back to Islam. However he decided to focus on continuing his family heritage with some reforms. It may be good enough for some but many reformist expect more radical change.

To say reformist have achieved less is wrong. There are a few hundred reformist who collectively sent massive jolts to SMS and SMB over last 50 years. SKQ has leveraged the exposure and weakness created as many individual reformists who in freelance fashion were chipping away the power. Reformists are modest and use publicity or propoganda less. I would caution FD not to attack reformist and avoid direct confrontation.

FD have decided to retain practises of infallibility, Dai mutlaq, Sajeda, sole custodian of zakat collection, misaq etc etc which are very difficult to be accepted by Muslim influenced reformists who are observant of what mainstream Shia and Sunni practise.In consistent reform practises STF and FD will be democratically crticised on this reformist website.

Reformist not to confuse with PDB do not group or dont have official leader. It is a big group of freelance free thinking lets say rejectionists across the world.

STF claiming the position of Dia needs to be judged not only on the highest personal character or oratory skill but highest Islamic and moral standards. Implying he is the best of what we have got from STS family to lead is weak justification.

STF should not feel offended and this site has also given his FD movement to promote his claims against SMS. If FD or FD loyal supporters expect only praises, this is not the site and as reformist we will be betraying our genetics.FD should create their own bloging site.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#18

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:48 pm

tipu sultan wrote:STF had an opportunity to be different and take the community back to Islam. However he decided to focus on continuing his family heritage with some reforms. It may be good enough for some but many reformist expect more radical change.

To say reformist have achieved less is wrong. There are a few hundred reformist who collectively sent massive jolts to SMS and SMB over last 50 years. SKQ has leveraged the exposure and weakness created as many individual reformists who in freelance fashion were chipping away the power. Reformists are modest and use publicity or propoganda less. I would caution FD not to attack reformist and avoid direct confrontation.

FD have decided to retain practises of infallibility, Dai mutlaq, Sajeda, sole custodian of zakat collection, misaq etc etc which are very difficult to be accepted by Muslim influenced reformists who are observant of what mainstream Shia and Sunni practise.In consistent reform practises STF and FD will be democratically crticised on this reformist website.
The community of Bohras is already on the path of Islam. Mufy Morela and his brothers and supporters are an aberration. Do you consider yourself to be judge of who is Islamic and who is not? Please tell us your qualifications and if you are a new prophet or something.

In my opinion, the reformists have achieved very little, specially recently. I do not see a single credible leader among the reformist, who can provide both religious and secular leadership. STF does both admirably. In fact, I think the reformists will not last another generation. Once the people who were involved in the early 1960-1970 movement pass away, it will be end of the reform movement, at least in the organized sense. Sure, this forum exists, but as repeatedly pointed out, it is not really the "reformist movement" and most dyed-in-the-wool reformists do not participate here. Most people simply are frustrated individuals who come to voice their unhappiness.

What SKQ did in two years the reformists could not do in 70 years. Revival of religious learning, the opening up of texts, the explication of meanings of various du'as and the modernization of finance is a spectacular achievement, specially given the short period in which this was done. This is only the beginning. We are witnessing a new type of "bohra" movement: one which is modern and forward looking, living both in the West and East at the same time.

The only religious leadership which the reformist have is the followers of the four ustaads who were removed from the jaamia. These people are mad fanatics, and kept at distance by the progressives. We have an example of this here, a (wo)man who goes by the name of Mubarak aka Doctor aka Munira_RV. Enough said.

According to classical Shi'a and Bohra doctrine, the Imam is infallible, and, during this period of seclusion, his da'i is "like him" in all respects. Also, even in Shi'a in Iran, say, most zaakat collection is done by individual marja'. In both Sunni and Twelver Islam there is no concept of single, central authority. However, such a concept exists in the Ismaili and the Bohra branches. Thus, centralization of zaakat collection amongst these groups.

My general feeling is that very soon we will see a new efflorescence of knowledge, like that done by the secret society of "Pure Brethren" in their Raasail. Things take time, and one needs to be patient. However, the Fatemi Dawat movement has been a positive development, and advantage should be taken of the same.



SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#19

Unread post by SBM » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:50 pm

Biradar
Welcome back, please check your PM



seeker110
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#20

Unread post by seeker110 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:14 pm

When ever I hear the word Khidmat Guzar, it gets my blood boiling. Any SOB who come to masjid and sits on the throne is pure Daku. [DELETED]
A khidmat- guzar should act the part in jeans, not in the garb of a Dhulan. Where he is rendered helpless. Matter of fact all people should dress appropiate to the culture of the country they reside in.

All paid people of the Masjid should be paid with Jamat funds by the masjid council of elders for the area.

I seldom see college educated youngsters in our Mosques. They refuse to put up with the shenanigans that goes on in the masjid. Dai is responsible to correct this problem. I feel sad that we have failed them and they have decided the Bhora Tubka Sucks. We are loosing the best and the jamat is holding on to stupid dysfunctional.

If he TF has a new flow chart for rectifying our concerns, he can become our savior. As of now its a sinking ship. Odds are very much against the TS. Probably best if they get out of the race altogether.

Unn ke mun mei khot dekhta hai.



Mkenya
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

#21

Unread post by Mkenya » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:02 pm

Biradar Bhai:

You wrote: The community of Bohras is already on the path of Islam.

You may want to enlighten me and others as to which Islam you are referring to. Is it the one that Nabi Saheb was divined by Allah Karim to proclaim in Arabia or the pitiful charade the Dais have 'thauki besade' on a bleating herd of Abdes. Dais, the ancestors of whom could not decide which country from among Hind, Sind and Yemen were promising to be the most lucrative. After a double-take between Gujarat and Zijibla settled in the lands of Kaka Akela et al. The rest of their tale is replete with plots and counterplots, feuds among families and 'ghagra paltan' bedroom diplomacy, intrigue, infidelity, need I say more!

Biradar Bhai, I have always enjoyed your posts. Isn't it time for 51st. 52nd. 53rd and 54th and other DLP's to be relegated to the stink from where they ejaculated?

My vendetta, if I may call it that, is to expose the 'kartoot' of Kothar and its henchmen whenever opportunity presents. I profess no religious knowledge except for my 'imaan'. Countless before me have left scratch marks of their efforts in history. To uproot them from 'jud moor' is wishful thinking on anyone's part but please let us not link Kothar with Islam.



zinger
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#22

Unread post by zinger » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:11 am

Mkenya wrote:Biradar Bhai:

You wrote: The community of Bohras is already on the path of Islam.

You may want to enlighten me and others as to which Islam you are referring to. Is it the one that Nabi Saheb was divined by Allah Karim to proclaim in Arabia or the pitiful charade the Dais have 'thauki besade' on a bleating herd of Abdes. Dais, the ancestors of whom could not decide which country from among Hind, Sind and Yemen were promising to be the most lucrative. After a double-take between Gujarat and Zijibla settled in the lands of Kaka Akela et al. The rest of their tale is replete with plots and counterplots, feuds among families and 'ghagra paltan' bedroom diplomacy, intrigue, infidelity, need I say more!

Biradar Bhai, I have always enjoyed your posts. Isn't it time for 51st. 52nd. 53rd and 54th and other DLP's to be relegated to the stink from where they ejaculated?

My vendetta, if I may call it that, is to expose the 'kartoot' of Kothar and its henchmen whenever opportunity presents. I profess no religious knowledge except for my 'imaan'. Countless before me have left scratch marks of their efforts in history. To uproot them from 'jud moor' is wishful thinking on anyone's part but please let us not link Kothar with Islam.
Mkenya, allow me to ask you the same question!
Which Islam are YOU referring to too???

Is it the one that RasulAllah SAWW divined by Allah or is the pitiful charade that Muslims all over the world have created today?

Dont throw stones if you live in a glass house my good friend.

As for your agenda of exposing the kothar, well to that i say "more power to you then"

As for your last statement, i would request you to not link kothar with Islam either. Birader and i refer to the common Dawoodi Bohra who is still very much a muslim, albeit a misguided one, as much as you or the guy next to you too.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#23

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:16 am

Mkenya wrote:Biradar Bhai:

You wrote: The community of Bohras is already on the path of Islam.

You may want to enlighten me and others as to which Islam you are referring to. Is it the one that Nabi Saheb was divined by Allah Karim to proclaim in Arabia
Yes.

Mkenya wrote: Biradar Bhai, I have always enjoyed your posts. Isn't it time for 51st. 52nd. 53rd and 54th and other DLP's to be relegated to the stink from where they ejaculated?

My vendetta, if I may call it that, is to expose the 'kartoot' of Kothar and its henchmen whenever opportunity presents. I profess no religious knowledge except for my 'imaan'. Countless before me have left scratch marks of their efforts in history. To uproot them from 'jud moor' is wishful thinking on anyone's part but please let us not link Kothar with Islam.
Lets distinguish between the actions of the Kothar, which I deplore, from the actions of the da'is in the last 900 years. The da'is have led the community through very difficult times, through persecution by Sunnis, Hindus and others and have themselves suffered greatly. For example, S. Qutubkhan Qutbuddin (RA) was martyred by the thugs of Aurangzeb. Many hundreds of people were killed, and the survival of the community is a testament to its tenacity and grit.

In the last 100 years we have seen a sea change among the bohras, mainly from confrontation with modernity. The power of the priests increased, and as it happens almost like clockwork, the administrative apparatus grew to monstrous proportion, with a terribly controlling and exploitative class of people who grew rich on the hard work of others. I do not deny this.

We must keep in mind that today things are again in flux. Three years ago I had little hope that the Bohras could be reformed. However, I feel different today. The Fatemi Dawaat movement has injected hope that things may change. Of course, it could all be false hope, but things have been positive till date. Lets give STF a chance and see what he does. Be patient, and try to take advantage of their dissemination of knowledge. We know that nothing can be expected from More-la Muffy, and the progressive movement might as well be dead. Unless one wishes to just give up on one's heritage and religion, I suggest being patient and doing ones best to study and learn.

Note that I oppose all forms of oppression, and do not support the Kothar or Muffy More-la or his gangster family, or, to put it briefly, the Iblisi Toli. However, I have hope that things can be different and we can return to a more loving and caring community, not driven solely by the Kothari monsters, who want only money, money and more money.

My sincere suggestion is to at least try and love again, and not have our hearts full of hate for everything "bohra". Bohras are good people, and those of us who care for the community should come forward and support those who are doing their best to restore it to the loving and caring community we once were. That's all.



SBM
Posts: 6157
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#24

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:45 am

Br Biradar
Interesting you said Let us have some patience with STF and give him more room but at the same time you are not extending the same to Progressive Bohras who without vast amount of wealth, are making some differences. Let us list them
-STF with inside knowledge and vast amount of wealth did NOT take establishment of SMS about anti Islamic activities like killing wild animals, FGM and 24/7 maatam but instead spending millions of dollars fighting the NUSS ( I think it is all about division of wealth more then about who is rightfully appointed)
-Progressives, most from this forum, without any resources did create big waves, they used this forum and their connection to bring an Aamil and his henchmen to justice for the cruelty of FGM
-Because of Progressives involvement- may be a small contribution, they were able to subdue the last Moharrum Tamasha in Houston. There were no pompous show on stage, no parade of Civic leaders and no police escorted Ziyafaats, he came and he left very quietly.
-Because of expose of their Ayash life style and yes this Forum did play a very important part in exposing, we are seeing Bohra Springs in small numbers in many Jamaat
-And now many Progressives in Canada are working behind scene and again with very very limited resources to make sure SMS becomes a personal non grata over there.
So Biradar- you are ready to ask everyone to be patient with STF but ready to blame progressives for their arduous and slow change, a little of bias on your part.
Let me clarify when I say PROGRESSIVES, I do not mean some one belonging to Udaipuri Jammat but anyone who stopped patronizing thiese kothari Mafias be, SMS or STF but still follow the culture within their household.



seeker110
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#25

Unread post by seeker110 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:29 pm

Allah gave us many things for us to enjoy and learn. We have nature, music, literature and science. These are also divided and sub divided many times. We bog down in division through Religion.

Compassion is changed into hatred. Somehow we fear the Merciful and doubt his love. Unknown ( future ) is supposed to be bad.

Where is hammat e mardan, Madad e khuda.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.



Mkenya
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

#26

Unread post by Mkenya » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:28 pm

zinger bhai: You queried "Mkenya, allow me to ask you the same question!
Which Islam are YOU referring to too???"

While not wanting to enumerate the differences between this Islam and that Islam
suffice it to say that my Islam is, like millions of others, the practical Islam; in which
in one part perform my prayers to Allah Karim thanking him for His bounty. I do this
mostly at home and regularly visit mosques on Jumaa to listen to sermons with
soul-searching topics, attend masses in a Christian church from where self-financing followers
go to poor areas of India to build clinics, teach cottage industries, staff natal clinics.
In the remaining ninety-nine parts I prepare and distribute food and drinks
to homeless people in my city, buy them meals if I find them during my daily walks,
visit geriatric wards in hospitals to help feed and console lonely and ailing seniors,
take seniors out in their wheel chairs for fresh air, etc. This is my Islam and I am so
proud of it. Zinger bhai, this is my forte. I am humbled, and at the same time infuriated
at the criminal waste of precious time by others disseminating to the nth degree the
virtues of this and that faith. Arm-chair quarterbacks like to quote Kabir, Aristotle,
Kant, Rumi, et. al to demonstrate their literary prowess but fail in the practical
application of what they say.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#27

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:24 pm

SBM wrote:Br Biradar
Interesting you said Let us have some patience with STF and give him more room but at the same time you are not extending the same to Progressive Bohras who without vast amount of wealth, are making some differences. Let us list them
Patience runs thin after 60-70 years. How much more time do progressives need? 100 years? 200 years?

Again, don't get me wrong. I am against oppression of all sorts, and I support individual progressives who are struggling against the Kothar.

However, I do not see what the progressives have left to offer any longer. All the old leaders are dead or dying and no new leaders of any stature are coming out. The two scholars which were in the progressive fold, Poonawala and Hamdani are on the outskirts of the movement and hardly contribute to it at all. Even Aliasgar Engineer was more of a social reformer and not a religious scholar.

Can you say why anyone in the Western world, or even in Indian subcontinent, would feel any attraction whatsoever to the progressives? Unless you are from Udaipur or the early reformist jamaats, you would not care at all. All that is left is people complaining on this board, and spreading gossip. Where are the communities? Can such even be formed? I highly doubt it.

What we need is a dynamic leadership which incorporates thorough knowledge of our heritage, and can authoritatively help people understand this, and fulfill their spiritual needs. In addition, those persons must be modern, understand the current world we live in, and be able to authoritatively help people navigate it. I do not see a single such person in the progressives. The mad-mullahs types (Mubarak and his fanatic Malegaon-types) live in the stone age and do not understand the first thing about modernity. They are as fanatic as the crazy jaamia graduates infesting the Muffy jamaats. The liberals types are essentially atheists or agnostics. So what choice is left?




SBM
Posts: 6157
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#28

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:58 pm

How much more time do progressives need? 100 years? 200 years?
The Indian Independence Movement encompassed activities and ideas aiming to end the East India Company rule (1757–1858) and the British Raj (1858–1947) in the Indian subcontinent. The Movement spanned a total of 190 years (1757-1947).
All the old leaders are dead or dying and no new leaders of any stature are coming out.
Again you do not need an established leader to lead the movement, sometimes the movement creates the leadership. Remember the self immolation of an person in Alegria in 2011 which created the revolution and over thrown of the dictatorial regime
However, I do not see what the progressives have left to offer any longer.
Oh well atleast they brought about the cessation of FMG which STF did not have guts to come out and condemned till the Aamil went to jail
Can you say why anyone in the Western world, or even in Indian subcontinent, would feel any attraction whatsoever to the progressives?
Why limit to Progressives only, this is the story with the entire organized religion be it Judaism, Christianity or Islam
What we need is a dynamic leadership which incorporates thorough knowledge of our heritage, and can authoritatively help people understand this, and fulfill their spiritual needs.
And you think STF offers that?
In addition, those persons must be modern, understand the current world we live in, and be able to authoritatively help people navigate it
.
And that is what exactly majority of disenfranchised Dawoodi Bohras thought about SKQ when he broke away and why limit to SKQ even people who joined Alavi sect thought the same.
Yes the choices are dark but if the most educated country in the world thinks that Donald Trump is the right person to lead the most powerful nation on Earth then why just blame gullible, mentally suppressed Abdes and Amtes. Yes we have lot of work ahead of us.



seeker110
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#29

Unread post by seeker110 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:10 pm

MKenya" attend masses in a Christian church from where self-financing followers
go to poor areas of India to build clinics, teach cottage industries, staff natal clinics.
In the remaining ninety-nine parts I prepare and distribute food and drinks
to homeless people in my city, buy them meals if I find them during my daily walks,
visit geriatric wards in hospitals to help feed and console lonely and ailing seniors,
take seniors out in their wheel chairs for fresh air, etc. This is my Islam and I am so
proud of it"

Best labor was unpaid labor. I enjoy people of all faiths and believe mankind needs a helping hand. That is also my forte.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#30

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:02 pm

Good to see you back Biradar, but frankly I'm quite disappointed to see you in your new avtaar -- as a gushing acolyte of Taher Fakhruddin. You always had a soft corner for KQ but your new-found enthusiasm for TF is intriguing. I wonder what changed, that now you should come out swinging in defence of the doctrinal purity and justifying the absolute authority of the Dai as the sole interpreter of Quranic text. We all know -- and you too in your more enlightened moments have admitted -- that the story of the unbroken chain of Imams and Dais and all their claims to infallibility and esoteric knowledge is bunkum. As far as doctrine goes it is fine and dandy, but the truth is that in the day to day life of Bohras the taawil of the Quran has little meaning. What exactly are the aspects of the Quran whose taawil need to be explained to Bohras? How can this taawil knowledge improve the understating of Islam of Bohras. We all talk about taawil as some kind of sacred, pristine thing but like the Loch Ness monster it remains elusive. Taawil for all practical purposes in the present day is nothing but a magic trick to dazzle unsuspecting and unthinking masses.

How many times have any Dai actually explicated a taawil which has benefited believers and or opened their minds to something new or progressive. The only thing I can think of is TF's pronouncement recently on FGM and that too if you really get down to it is because his hand was forced. Without the pressure of progressives -- whom you now so blithely denigrate -- I doubt TF would have come out with the statement. Again this had nothing to do with taawil or the Quran. He was interpreting the ruling in Dail ul Islam.

So please do not lay down the doctrine, we know what it is, we know of its cardinal importance and we also know how it has been used. For the past century it has been deployed to consolidate the power of the clergy and oppress people, to crush dissent and to stymie progress. It is disingenuous of you to separate the Kothar and the Dais. The Dais and their families have thrived on the oppression of the community, and KQ and his family -- no matter how hard you try to absolve them -- were integral part of that oppression and loot.

Maybe KQ has done more in three years than progressives in the last 50. But if he had been true to his role of a future Dai -- for he was nassed and he knew he was Dai in waiting -- there would have been no need for progressive movement. He and his father allowed themselves to be manipulated by the mafia. Which doesn't say much for their infallibility -- another doctrinal trope -- their knowledge of taawil, their wisdom or their ability to guide and lead the community. The and Dai and his Mazoon failed the community and failed in their historic and religious mission by allowing the faith and followers to be destroyed by their greedy extended family. They are no different from certain weakling Imams who were manipulated by their vezirs.

TF is trotting out these doctrinal principles only to assert his position as Dai ul Mutlaq and all the power that goes with it. There is nothing in it for the followers. They still have to pay up, they still have to do kadambosi, they still have to pledge their unquestioning allegiance, they still can't question him, they still can't ask for accountability etc. This is not to say that TF is not a vast improvement on Mufaddal but given what a buffoon the latter is, it isn't saying much. KQ and TF after him are continuing in the cloistered, feudal tradition of the ruler and ruled, of king and subjects. All the doctrinal underpinnings that you talk about are no longer valid in a modern, changing world, they are all right as religious artifact but nothing much is to be gained by hammering them again and again. TF could be a people's Dai if he claims to be so with the times. But no, he still chooses to wrap himself in yards of white muslin and lord it over acolytes from a takht, assert his authority and proclaim that his word is final. I know I'm asking for too much, but I see nothing in TF that calls for optimism or for the flowering intellectual effervescence.