Taher Fakhruddin missteps

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anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhruddin missteps

#31

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:28 pm

that the story of the unbroken chain of Imams and Dais and all their claims to infallibility and esoteric knowledge is bunkum.
You are absolutely right. A person who doubts Allah, but has absolute faith in a human is an absolute idol worshipper. And any Dai who encourages idol worship has no understanding of the Quran or taawil or anything in the middle. Any human who claims that he is the sole owner of the understanding of any aspect of the Quran should be considered a liar. It doesn't matter how knowledgeable he is.
Taawil for all practical purposes in the present day is nothing but a magic trick to dazzle unsuspecting and unthinking masses.
You are on a role here Humsafar. You should participate more often. There was another Taawiler on this board once upon a time - porus. He said similar crap. But nothing concrete. Nothing real. Nothing that one could touch or learn from. Nothing one could apply to be able to worship the Almighty in the best possible way or to be free of Zulm of Zalims. That mantle has now being passed over to Biradar. He continues the taawili crap. It is surprising how the progressives didn't achieve anything in the last 60 - 70 years, all the while when the just passed away Dai SKQ was alive and well with all his knowledge of taawil. Or did he suddenly acquire this knowledge after he decided to split from the other con man? And did the new Dai similarly suddenly acquire this taawili knowledge? What were they doing for the last 60 - 70 years? Enjoying the ill gotten wealth on the back of the taawili knowledge of the dead Al-Hayy?



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#32

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:33 pm

If nothing else, I guess I have made Humsafar do zuhuur on the board! And, of course, I always expect my "friend" anajmi to join the chorus of fools. Responses later.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:58 pm

Thoren Oakenshield has promised Bilbo Baggins a share of the treasure after it is freed from the clutches of Smaug. Taawilily speaking!!



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#34

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:38 pm

anajmi wrote:Thoren Oakenshield has promised Bilbo Baggins a share of the treasure after it is freed from the clutches of Smaug. Taawilily speaking!!
As I said, you belong to the Chorus of Fools. I rest my case.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#35

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:10 pm

My friend Humsafar: I am not "a gushing acolyte of Taher Fakhruddin". Please tell me what makes you think that? The forum clown, Babdeen, made a post showing his ignorance of the philosophical and religious background of the bohras, and I corrected it. Thats all.

Now, it is true that I have had a soft spot for SKQ, as you put it. The reason is simple: I have seen him in action, many, many times, even before the schism. He has always been kind and gentle. Also, as I have explained at length here, the historical background of the last 100 years is only now becoming clear, and I believe the center piece of the wicked evil plot was the father-in-law of our beloved Muffy More-la. I have also seen STF in action, and listened very carefully to his bayaans and his ideas. Overall, he is a very positive and liberal person, specially compared to the mad-man Muffy More-la.

You have to understand that these people, even Fatemi Dawat, are traditional, and it takes time for major changes to happen. Which is a good thing. I do not want to loose the cultural and historic identity we have developed over a period of 1000 years overnight. I do not see any movement among the progressive to preserve this. Of course, it is possible you think there is nothing worth preserving, but I humbly disagree.

Hence, my posts on the doctrinal issues should be taken to be within the context of a historical and religious background, independent of my personal acceptance or not.

Incidentally, I should say it is great hypocrisy to quote da'is like S. Hatim (RA) in length, talk about how wonderful everyone before the 47th were, and then immediately reject everything these dai's stood for. For example, I suggest you study the tremendous literature the early da'is produced on the concept of taawil and haqaaiq before you bash it. If you want, reject the complete bohra faith in toto, no problem.

To come to the point of taawil: Taawil simply is the explication of actions of shaaria, amongst other things, explaining why they are the way they are. Now, you may not agree with these, but then I ask why not just reject all the Qur'an in toto? Many do, you should do so too. If one accepts that the Qur'an is a divinely revealed book, then one must accept that there is more to it than just the surface meaning. To say otherwise is to limit the message of Allah to just the literal words, and hence to put a limit on the expressive power of Allah. Which would lead one to reject religion completely.

A nice example given often is: you can eat the skin of a fruit, like goats and sheep, but completely discard the fruit. The choice is ones own. For the bohras, and in fact, for most Shi'a in general, the concept of taawil is a very important, distinguishing feature. I have spent a lot of time studying various Shi'a and also Sufi movements, and the constant theme is one of divine knowledge which can not be gleaned merely from the literal text.

Finally, I am not against or even beating up unfairly on the progressive. I mean, my past posting history should make this obvious. But, I suggest we do some real soul searching and be honest about the prospects of a true, large-scale progressive movement taking hold among the bohras. I believe even you would agree this is a remote possibility. In such cases one must examine the realistic options one has and act accordingly.



zinger
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#36

Unread post by zinger » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Mkenya wrote:zinger bhai: You queried "Mkenya, allow me to ask you the same question!
Which Islam are YOU referring to too???"

While not wanting to enumerate the differences between this Islam and that Islam
suffice it to say that my Islam is, like millions of others, the practical Islam; in which
in one part perform my prayers to Allah Karim thanking him for His bounty. I do this
mostly at home and regularly visit mosques on Jumaa to listen to sermons with
soul-searching topics, attend masses in a Christian church from where self-financing followers
go to poor areas of India to build clinics, teach cottage industries, staff natal clinics.
In the remaining ninety-nine parts I prepare and distribute food and drinks
to homeless people in my city, buy them meals if I find them during my daily walks,
visit geriatric wards in hospitals to help feed and console lonely and ailing seniors,
take seniors out in their wheel chairs for fresh air, etc. This is my Islam and I am so
proud of it. Zinger bhai, this is my forte. I am humbled, and at the same time infuriated
at the criminal waste of precious time by others disseminating to the nth degree the
virtues of this and that faith. Arm-chair quarterbacks like to quote Kabir, Aristotle,
Kant, Rumi, et. al to demonstrate their literary prowess but fail in the practical
application of what they say.
Mkenya bhai, my question to you was more rhetorical in nature than literal when you questioned the Islam that the normal Dawoodi Bohra follows. i have read enough of your posts to know where you stand, so you need not justify

And like Birader has said, yes, we follow the same Islam that Muslims all over the world follow, albeit with a few theological differences WRT to the presence of an Imam and Dai in the religious ecosystem



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#37

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:36 am

zinger wrote:we follow the same Islam that Muslims all over the world follow, albeit with a few theological differences WRT to the presence of an Imam and Dai in the religious ecosystem
Bro zinger
A community can have any ecosystem, any level of leaders and governers to guide, lead, rule the community keeping the religious beliefs & related practices consistent with core Islamic tenets. But several communities not only bohra, but across the world make amazing claims to own monopoly of access to allah and power to influence allah’s decision by their intercession, and then it is clear to see how such monopolistic claim lead to conflict, rivalry, power corruption and distancing from true spiritual sense of walking on Islamic salvation.

It is heartening to know previous duaats and Imam were humble and lead an austere life, as much as we can say so. Eventually history of Duats and Imams is filled with rivalry and conflict over leadership if other than for greed and power.

IMO, the civic structure of Imam-Duats-Aamils-Khidmatguzaars works well to govern and organize the community, but these guys claiming divinity and monopoly over allah, defeats the honest purpose of governance and accountability leading to power concentration and related corruption due to immunity.

Look at muffy abde community, they pretty much got the fools and their moolah, yet muffy camp makes atrocious and laughable claims to keep his fools in check and his power secured. These doctrines of Hidden Imam and visible duats in their best intentions could be correct in an imaginary ideal world, but in reality it is flawed and open to massive monopolizing of people’s faith and related exploitation.



Mkenya
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

#38

Unread post by Mkenya » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:18 pm

Sahir Ludhviani says it all:

Woh afsaana jissay anjaam tak lana na ho mumkin,
Ussay ik khoobsoorat mor dey kar chorna acha.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#39

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:41 pm

Biradar wrote: In such cases one must examine the realistic options one has and act accordingly.
so the conclusion seems to be that since 'realistically' bohras don't have much options, we must throw in our lot with TF who is a far better candidate than the insane muffy.

well, most progressive minded bohras of today's age and times have moved on from the pristine doctrinal aspects of the shia ismaili musta'ali tayyebi dawoodi thought, that the dai is infallible (kal maasoom) in the absence of the imam who is in hiding and the absolute authority commanding unflinching loyalty who must be obeyed on pain of baraat. these doctrinal aspects were not much in question when the dais conducted themselves with integrity, honesty and led austere spiritual lives completely focusing themselves on the mission of daawah even at great cost to themselves, oft times even sacrificing their own lives. but since sts decided to pursue worldly ambitions by hook or by crook, abandoning all vestiges of honor and spirituality, adopting unscrupulous means to enrich himself and his family, the scales have dropped from the eyes of those who questioned where our bohra deen was headed. now with influences from other muslim sects and the vast exposure from the internet and media, it is becoming increasingly hard to swallow that the imam will re-appear, that the haramkhor dais will allow that hapless soul to reveal himself and regain his seat and authority and that the ever exaggerated lies of the dai now being equated with allah and the final authority on the interpretation of the quran etc can be digested.

in this scenario, yes, TF came in like a breath of fresh air, with his western as well as deeni education, mastery over languages and clarity of thought, but soon after sliding into his father's seat, he started parroting the old doctrine of sajda to dai, absolute authority, final interpreter of the quran etc. for those for whom these aspects are still very important as being inviolable tenets of their faith, it is fine and dandy, they can now heave a sigh of relief that they have chosen an obviously better, cleaner candidate than the moron muffy. but for those who expected more from him, he falls woefully short of the ideal. what's stopping him from declaring sajda to himself as haraam and shirk? whats stopping him from saying unequivocally that all his followers have the fundamental right to ask for accounts of collections? that he is answerable to all who repose their faith in him? by doing so he is only emulating the great prophet and ali of whose shias we claim to be.

by taking refuge in doctrinal scriptures and shia ideologies, we are only circumventing the core issues. the progressive bohras now will not accept any circular arguments which are in clear contradiction with the quran. i know what the next argument will be, that by refusing to accept the long held pillar of bohra shia faith of a hidden imam and the dai ul mutlaq who represents him totally, we are denying the entire belief system. so be it, if that is the only way out of this mess.

let TF harken back to the dais of old, to the practices and conduct of the dai's who only were interested in leading the mission, when jamaats were independent and all matters were transparent, incl. the most important issue of accounts, when the dai did not excommunicate those who disagreed with his draconian farmaans or challenged him on any aspect. if he does this, i exaggerate not, tomorrow all the reformists and progressive minded bohras will flock to him and muffy's rotten edifice will crumble. it will lead a mass revolution for change and we will be the envy of every muslim, no matter what their sect or hue. because that is exactly what we were as recently as only a 100 years back. a community of wise, well-educated, simple and god-fearing, peace-loving people with very high standards of integrity and honesty in all dealings and in our individual and collective behaviours.

this is what TF should be aiming for and he should undertake this change post haste, otherwise i see that the more the time passes, the more his stance will harden. now is the time, when he is young, fresh, full of enthusiasm and dynamism when he can bring about maximum change, when all his revolutionary overturning of old mindsets will be most easily accepted.

one can always hope and dream, but in the meanwhile the reality is that there are many more like me who will not accept TF as the ideal alternative.



tipu sultan
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:24 pm

#40

Unread post by tipu sultan » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:43 pm

Mashallah...I dont have the mastery of the keyboards....but the claim by Ortho or FD that reformist are old dying and worthless...Anajmi, HB, AZ, Mkenya, SBM and Humsafar and others came out firing all cannons in excellent response.

SMS die hard may be spectators in FD vs reformist jostling to see which team looses. Remember this even though they dont send about what's app messages or make media briefings , SMS has been target of organised reformist missions, in last 1 year he has been contained through various means by reformist men and women and they know which buttons to press when or knee to kick to put him in check.

If i may add Obama recently said and it reflects to modern day reformism, we dont need one person to lead because reformists collective achievements has created leadership culture within everyone to lead themselves.

The springs and grassroot revolts mean people have realised they can stand up and resist commands because reforms are possible. A diai can be scolded by a judge in Australia or mp in Britain, his wealth or charisma cannot help him manipulate process, his shortcomings can be exposed by social media in Houston and had to escape embarrassment, a diai has to plead to get new members and without assets cannot grow numbers in Darul Sakina etc etc. Who is weak and powerless in recent times.

The identity or culture that conservatives admire and want to preserve is weak it has fragmented and keeps fragmenting every 100 years. Yet mainstream Islam not based on single centralised leadership like Sunni or Shia keeps growing, self correcting when issues like recent ISIS issues come allong and keeps growing. Reformists are indirectly creating that atmosphere. So need of one appointed Diai is irrelevant but everyone is a Diai can be Diai and can contribute to leadership. Reformists dont need to replicate model of Diai Mutlaq .

So yes tipu and others may be old but reformists as SBM described have left behind a legacy which is a strong culture of self propelled reforms we dont need to be in portraits or selfies with presidents but our respect and recognitions are in court files media and best in memories of those who ever want to solve their own problems.

STF FD can take a dose of modesty to reach out and take our hand in equal frienship or comrade ship rather than looking down and demanding obedience and silence. FD read these blogs and reflect, amend your ways and reach out in peace and respect as equals in faith...dont give us reason to criticize and take you on.

Reformist will obtain respect of their following if we remain steadfast in our principles of consistent pillars of keeping the princes honest without favour or compromise. It will ensure balance of power and protect us ever making the mistake of creating STS or YN again.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#41

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:26 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
let TF harken back to the dais of old, to the practices and conduct of the dai's who only were interested in leading the mission, when jamaats were independent and all matters were transparent, incl. the most important issue of accounts, when the dai did not excommunicate those who disagreed with his draconian farmaans or challenged him on any aspect. if he does this, i exaggerate not, tomorrow all the reformists and progressive minded bohras will flock to him and muffy's rotten edifice will crumble.
First: you have advocated in another thread to just get rid of religion completely. Which I can somewhat sympathize with, but lets leave that aside for now.

However, can you provide us with information from your no doubt deep understanding of history how "dais of old" lived? Do you have any clue? Do you think these ideas which are around today were not around among the "dais of old"? For example, the most prolific write of taawil and haqaaiq literature was S. Idris Immaduddin, the 19th da'i al-mutlaq. How far should we go to find "dais of old"?

Also, Fatemi Dawat has already articulated that jamaats should manage their own affairs, including finances. Please keep up before you go on a rant. And, point out who has been excommunicated by them? Can you list a few people?

My friend, lets be realistic. Nothing is going to make Muffy's "rotten edifice" crumble. The progressives are no threat to him and in fact play into this narrative of having recalcitrant opposition who are bound for hell. Also, no one has told me how they think the progressive movement will continue beyond a few more years. Its on its last legs. Don't fool yourself from the ranters and complainers on this forum. This is a very small part of the world, and it does not represent any movement of any sort. Most of the people here are not unified in any thing except hate.

Lets please do an honest analysis. Not because I wish to criticize, but lets be real. What are the chances of the progressives being taken seriously? Near zero, I would say. They can't even decide where they belong! Half of them don't think naas happened on 47th da'i, the other half are vacillating between negotiating with Fatemi Dawat and hating them, and all of them are just confused about who they are. Most of them known nothing about their heritage or history. What sort of movement is this?

In my observation I see that all progressives want is to eat their cake and have it too. Nothing will satisfy them, and it seems no one is willing or able to see anything good in anything at all. Just hate, hate and more hate. Please lets stop pretending that the progressive movement is this vast amazing thing which will bring bohras out of their physical and mental bondage! It won't. No one gives a crap about the official movement any more, if it even exists. Lets please think clearly and think of options and how to move forward. Not get caught up in emotional and immature ideas.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#42

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:37 pm

tipu sultan wrote:Mashallah...I dont have the mastery of the keyboards....but the claim by Ortho or FD that reformist are old dying and worthless...Anajmi, HB, AZ, Mkenya, SBM and Humsafar and others came out firing all cannons in excellent response.
Welcome to the Chorus of Fools. None of the people you have listed, except for Humsafar, are reformists. They are all just people who have left the bohra fold, or are spineless cretins (like HB) who continue to pay patronage to Muffy but complain about him all the time. Anajmi is a hard-core sunni. To call him reformist is like calling a KKK member a civil rights activist. SBM knows almost nothing about Islam, even thought I appreciate his work on social issues in his home state and elsewhere.

Listen carefully: I am not against progressives or reform movement. I am simply pointing out that the stance they have has not succeeded, and the movement is failing and dying.

To say "Oh, we don't need leaders" is like the fox saying "I don't want the grapes, they are sour anyway" when he could not reach them. Leaders are fallible, yes, but they represent a cohesion, are able to represent the concerns of the group coherently and also help develop a sense of community which shares something positive. Aliasgar Engineer was the last such leader among the progressives. To have leaders does not mean to follow them blindly. At the end of they day each person should decide what they should do. You don't want to do something, just don't do it. But to expect someone to toe all your childish concerns 100% is a sign of emotional immaturity. Life does not have solutions, but only tradeoffs. Lets pick the correct one.




Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#43

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:37 pm

there was a time when i too blamed the reformists for not having taken their movement worldwide, for not having been more dynamic, for having withered away, isolated, marginalised, reviled, vilified and becoming stunted and stagnating.

this was when i did not know better. when i was perhaps naive and ill-informed. now over the years, as i have come across many of them at close quarters, interacted with them and have had many a free and frank discussion with them, i would never attach these adjectives to them.

anyone who accuses them of inaction, please first introspect. all those among you, if called to participate in a group (even secretly) to discuss an action plan, to find a workable strategy to reduce our reliance on these kothari mafia, how many of you would willingly and fearlessly attend? a meeting at a neutral venue, not aligned with any power groups, or vested interests? be honest in your answer. would you be fearful, would you be hesitant, reflect on your family and social responsibilities, your old and aged parents, your daughters of marriageable age, your warm and comforting circle of friends whom you meet at the masjid/markaz, your vaaro, your couples/kitty/thaal group.....?

i have personal experiences in their dozens where children have abandoned their own parents, brothers and sisters have fed their own siblings to the kothari wolves, just to save their own skin. if your own answer is NO, sorry i cannot join any such group, then how, in all fairness can one blame the reformists if more brave souls don't join them?

the reformists are not a monolithic structure like the kothar with thousands of crores from haraam ni kamai at their disposal. they are just ordinary people like you and me who got fed up of the loot and tyranny and set up their own little oases in the middle of the vast kothari desert. the story of udaipur is a completely different one, where they were able to assert their ownership of the jamaat properties, but in other parts of the world, the handful of reformists pooled together their meagre resources and built or rented premises to meet, pray, conduct majlises and deeni classes for their kids. you can do the same if you are seeking security in numbers and the warmth of your fellow bohras... but will you??

there is no reformist dai or saviour who will come riding in on his white steed, guns blazing, his posse' of cowboys trailing behind, to save your sorry arse from the kothari daakus. that expectation in itself is completely misplaced. its your own resolve, your own courage, your own decision that i will not be a slave anymore, come what may, that will change your life. meanwhile you can continue wallowing in the cess-pool of your own misery, waiting for the messiah, for the hidden imam, for the panjatan paak, for the mehdi, for clint eastwood, or whoever your hero is.. it will be an interminable wait while you wither away and die having sold your soul to the devil at the blood-soaked altar of expediency.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#44

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:07 pm

My friend AZ: what you say I do not disagree with, but physically repudiating the Muffy jammat is needed. How can one "secretly" be against it but continue to go there, pay them monies and socialize and have fun there? In this case, why would the Kothar ever want to change? As far as they are concerned, they see a vast herd of happy, rotound well-fed sheep to fleece.

Also, lets distinguish between Kothar, which is now a distinctly Muffadalli organization from the people of Fatemi Dawat. Lets not paint everyone with the same brush! I am not saying that FD is perfect, but it is certainly very liberal, encourages freely forming a local jamaat, managing it on one's own, and as-yet has not encouraged the appointment of the professional leach called the Amil anywhere. Does not mean they won't do so, but I think in terms of following one's religion, if one is so inclined to do so, is a good option. I am glad that they have made so much stuff openly available, and are putting up all sermons and lectures online for everyone to see. That is unprecedented! Lets take advantage, specially if we wish to maintain our heritage and culture, which is, frankly unique and very interesting.



SBM
Posts: 6150
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#45

Unread post by SBM » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:08 pm

The progressives are no threat to him and in fact play into this narrative of having recalcitrant opposition who are bound for hell.
Then one should remind them why they decided to issue all kinds of Farman about FGM after one lone person brought an axe on his Aamil in Australia and created a havoc all over the Bohra Jamaats including STF
SBM knows almost nothing about Islam,
And you are right Biradar, I am no scholar of Islam but to say I know nothing is a stretch on your part. I do not go out and shout from top of my lungs about my knowledge on Islam like a famous saying goes
" A Scientist will read dozen of books in his lifetime, but still believe that he has a lot to learn. A religious person barely reads one book, and think that he knows it all"



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#46

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:32 pm

Biradar,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I've said many times I've no problem with the concepts of Imamat, Taawil and all the attendant intricacies that go with it. As the fundamentals of Bohra faith I have no quarrel with them, if this is what Bohras accept as true. In fact, I appreciate the deep intellectual history and literature associated with the origin and evolution of these concepts.

My problem is that in the modern world they have no practical or even religious value. They are fine as historical artefacts, and as topics of research and academic discussion. Outside the academia and scholarship, in the real world where Bohras practice their faith and live their lives Imamat and Taawil are as useful as dodos. You say taawil is used in the explication of Sharia. If that is the case then how the recent Dais, the sole custodian of taawil, have been explicating the Shariah? Is there any particular instance where we can say "this is the plain, zahiri ayat, and this, here, is the taawil explanation of it." I'm really curious, I want to know. I've not studied taawil literature as you have, but I really would like to know if there is a book of taawil as there are compendiums of tafseers. Surely with so many Imams and Dais we must have a large collection of taawil literature penned by them. And I'm hoping that there are no contradictions among them, or are we to assume that even taawil commentary for, say, one particular ayat can differ from Imam to Imam, Dai to Dai?

You see the difficulties we get into the moment we begin to scrutinise these concepts. We all know that "aa taawil nu bayan chhe" is more of a ruse used by the clergy to deflect inquiry. Imamat and Taawil are no more than props that the clergy uses to legitimise itself. Including Mufaddal and the rest of them. By harping on these concepts as fundamental to faith we are unwittingly protecting these fraudsters, accepting their legitimacy, and doing their dirty work for them. It doesn't mean we should reject these beliefs but instead take them with sackfuls of salt when these grandees mouth them. The best response would be to laugh in their faces.

Here's what prompted me to call you gushing acolyte:
Biradar wrote: My general feeling is that very soon we will see a new efflorescence of knowledge, like that done by the secret society of "Pure Brethren" in their Raasail.
Like the Raasail? Really?

Final thing, it is sad that you should dub Asghar Ali Engineer as a social reformer. He was a Islamic scholar in his own right. He was not attached to academia, and did not live a comfy tenured life, writing unreadable dissertations. In that narrow sense may be was not a "scholar". But despite that, his study and scholarship of Islam is voluminous and extensive and fairly deep. I believe he has done more than any contemporary academics to bring the enlightened interpretation of the Quran and Islamic history to the reading public. By calling him a social reformer you devalue his scholarship and his sterling contribution to Islamic literature.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#47

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:20 pm

Biradar wrote:My friend AZ: what you say I do not disagree with, but physically repudiating the Muffy jammat is needed. How can one "secretly" be against it but continue to go there, pay them monies and socialize and have fun there? .
Biradar,

the allusion to the 'secret' meeting is in a different context which perhaps you are not privy to. my apologies. please refer to my thread, "Calling on all Canadian PDB's" and you will draw the correct conclusion.

i agree 100% that one cannot and should absolutely not remain part of an exploitative and tyrannical setup and pay them even a single penny. fyi, i have left the bohra fold completely several years ago, but even previously i made sure that i did not contribute even a dime to the thugs, yet i still managed to evade the scrutiny of the rascals and their grubby clutches for over 5 years!

once again i do support the fresh initiatives of TF, but as far as i am concerned, i feel he is not going the extra mile but clinging to the trappings of power as cemented by smb and sts. i will be the first one to jump at joining him once i see more positives. i am no one to demand that he act as per my agenda. i have my own viewpoint and i am sure he has his. i wish him all the best. swimming in the same waters as the giant insatiable crocodile muffy must not be easy.

as regards the emphasis on taawil, i have to agree with Humsafar, when it comes to the crunch, who in today's time and situation among the bohras really cares about it? the bohras over the last 6 decades or so have become so dumbed down that they would not understand any of it or distinguish its beauty from the behind of a donkey.

meanwhile, i lead a life of freedom, unfettered, unbound and not beholden to any 2 bit moron or his half penny amil. i don't buy into the hidden imam and his emergence from occultation. this obviously puts paid to the dai ul "mutlaq" doctrine and all the attendant crap. the question that one can then well ask is why am i still here, taking up cudgels on behalf of the oppressed, downtrodden and exploited masses of bohras?



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#48

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:32 pm

I agree with Biradar about his assessment of the reform movement. It has been on the decline for a long time, even while Asghar Ali Engineer was alive. We often used to discuss about it and he despaired about the its dwindling fortunes. After him the movement has completely lost its public face, even direction one would say. This decline is the result of many factors, chief among them is the absolute lack of support from Bohras. We have tried all sorts of campaigns, conferences, reach-out programmes, websites, forums, literature, protest marches, legal action etc. etc. but it seems it is impossible to draw a cowering Bohra out of his/her cubby hole.

So yes, the movement is in decline. But this should not be seen as the failure of reformists. It is the failure of Bohras -- anonymous dissidents and blind abdes alike -- who will not lift a finger to change their situation. AZ's experience regarding Forum warriors refusing to come a secret meeting illustrates the Bohra mindset very well. The agenda of the movement was/is very simple: accountability, jamat autonomy, end of baraat and end of oppression in the name of misaq and raza. The progressives freed themselves of all this but to have any larger meaning their successes needed to be spread among other jamats. That never happened.

So in ultimate analysis, the failure of reform movement is the failure of Bohras, and on the flip side, the success of the mafia clergy and their rule of fear and intimidation.

Of course, we reformists could have done better. But fighting the mighty Kothar with our meagre resources has not been easy. After a time and lack of results -- and wider support -- a kind of ennuie sets in. And that is what has happened. Progressives could align with Fatemi Dawat but the feelers we have got from them is the same old, same old. They are only a more presentable, sanitized version of the old Dawat. They may bring out the new Rasaail, but will they bring about real change? That is the question.



AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

#49

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:34 pm

This forum which is refereed to in short by everyone on whatsapp etc as PDB or Progressive Dawoodi Bohras is kinda the face of the reform movement. A movement that appears less reformist & more Islamist from the posts of many.

Reformists were all about accountability, autonomy etc. But we see more posts on the Dai & the Bohras being "unislamic" & committing shirk & sh!t.

So it would give any Bohra who has that bit of a spark to think about Syedna & his henchmen & visit this forum would be probably repulsed as his entire "faith/belief system" is being targeted & it stinking of Islamists. It's not likely to get support. S/He would probably quietly withdraw like I've seen many do than join any movement that has kinda taken a Wahabi turn questioning everything done by Bohras. This is not to say that all those who have withdrawn & not joined reform is because of this. Many probably haven't even heard of the forum.

Attacking the post of Dai, Imam which is central to Bohra faith is not gonna help. Stick to the basics as they say in cricket. Straight bat if you are a batsman, line & length if you are a bowler. Reforms are never easy or quick. True reformists have to stay at it.

As far as I am concerned, larger population needs to be made aware of what's happening within the Bohra community. The advent of social media & every news media being on social media & picking up stories from social media & shouting about it is probably best way to go about it. Take the case of FGM. Today issues like triple talaq & women's rights within the Muslim community are finding support among larger population. If larger public opinion can be built, it will either help make these people shape up or face music as even government or court can take action.

Twitter is probably a very good way to reach out to the larger population & wider audience to build public support. Islamists will not get support, but reformists will.

A true reformer should handle the PDB Twitter handle exposing the financial & other scams within the community. How the Bohras are oppressed etc. Tag important ministers, members of parliament, eminent personalities & get retweets. If you post things like Bohras committing shirk etc you won't get any support.
Humsafar wrote:I agree with Biradar about his assessment of the reform movement. It has been on the decline for a long time, even while Asghar Ali Engineer was alive. We often used to discuss about it and he despaired about the its dwindling fortunes. After him the movement has completely lost its public face, even direction one would say. This decline is the result of many factors, chief among them is the absolute lack of support from Bohras. We have tried all sorts of campaigns, conferences, reach-out programmes, websites, forums, literature, protest marches, legal action etc. etc. but it seems it is impossible to draw a cowering Bohra out of his/her cubby hole.

So yes, the movement is in decline. But this should not be seen as the failure of reformists. It is the failure of Bohras -- anonymous dissidents and blind abdes alike -- who will not lift a finger to change their situation. AZ's experience regarding Forum warriors refusing to come a secret meeting illustrates the Bohra mindset very well. The agenda of the movement was/is very simple: accountability, jamat autonomy, end of baraat and end of oppression in the name of misaq and raza. The progressives freed themselves of all this but to have any larger meaning their successes needed to be spread among other jamats. That never happened.

So in ultimate analysis, the failure of reform movement is the failure of Bohras, and on the flip side, the success of the mafia clergy and their rule of fear and intimidation.

Of course, we reformists could have done better. But fighting the mighty Kothar with our meagre resources has not been easy. After a time and lack of results -- and wider support -- a kind of ennuie sets in. And that is what has happened. Progressives could align with Fatemi Dawat but the feelers we have got from them is the same old, same old. They are only a more presentable, sanitized version of the old Dawat. They may bring out the new Rasaail, but will they bring about real change? That is the question.



SBM
Posts: 6150
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#50

Unread post by SBM » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:57 pm

Interesting part is that all those who are giving all the ideas and criticizing what Reformist and people who left the fold but still care about community are just spreading hot air Lots of talk No action while people like OZ and Babdeen, AZ, GM and me ( all of them criticized by many) have done more to expose the wrongs in Kothar and have caused a small awakening in Bohras despite the fact that we are no longer part of Jamaat but care for the old glory days of Bohras.
Unfortunately most of the critics are either fence sitter or Closet Reformists.
Let me once again remind everyone the words of Great JFK, Don't ask what Country can do for you, ask what have you done for Country.
substitute Country for Abused and Suppressed Abdes/Amtes.



Mkenya
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

#51

Unread post by Mkenya » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:52 pm

My profound apologies to SBM, a like-minded friend:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let me once again remind everyone the words of Great JFK, Don't ask what Country can do for you, ask what have you done for country."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These words were made famous by United States President John F. Kennedy in his 1961 inauguration speech. He should have said, ''In the words of Kahlil Gibran … '', referring to the Lebanese-American poet and artist who lived from 1883 to 1931.

But Gibran never intended these words to be addressed by a president to his people. He was writing an open letter, in Arabic, to Lebanese parliamentarians in 1925, during the fall of the Ottoman Empire. His letter was titled ''The New Frontier'', which gives a completely different meaning and context. ''Are you a politician asking what your country can do for you or a zealous one asking what you can do for your country?'' he wrote. ''If you are the first, then you are a parasite; if the second, then you are an oasis in the desert.''



seeker110
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#52

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:17 pm

Brrother AL Zulfiqar wrote

" meanwhile you can continue wallowing in the cess-pool of your own misery, waiting for the messiah, for the hidden imam, for the panjatan paak, for the mehdi, for clint eastwood, or whoever your hero is.."

Please substitute George Carlin for Clint Eastwood.

Discussion is getting warmer, all I can think of is New Hampshire's motto "live free or die.



AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

#53

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:19 am

If ppl don't tom tom it doesn't mean that have not done anything.

I have my ways & done & doing a lot to expose the kotharis. My beliefs are personal. I can't run away from the fact that I was born a Bohri & my folks are very much die hard followers & my actions have repercussions on them. So I have devised ways to deal with that but still expose the Saifee Mahal Mafia.

PS: Without getting into detail, will just say that if there is any action on the FGM front (executive or judicial or whatever) in India, will have my contribution to it.
SBM wrote:Interesting part is that all those who are giving all the ideas and criticizing what Reformist and people who left the fold but still care about community are just spreading hot air Lots of talk No action while people like OZ and Babdeen, AZ, GM and me ( all of them criticized by many) have done more to expose the wrongs in Kothar and have caused a small awakening in Bohras despite the fact that we are no longer part of Jamaat but care for the old glory days of Bohras.
Unfortunately most of the critics are either fence sitter or Closet Reformists.
Let me once again remind everyone the words of Great JFK, Don't ask what Country can do for you, ask what have you done for Country.
substitute Country for Abused and Suppressed Abdes/Amtes.



SBM
Posts: 6150
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#54

Unread post by SBM » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:40 pm

Since I donot live in India I cannot speak or work for them
but in USA there are repercussion and kothari mafia is running scared



tipu sultan
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:24 pm

#55

Unread post by tipu sultan » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:38 am

Biradar and his likes need to realise by now there can be 2 sides a publicity run propaganda or silent striving. I am one who would prefer the later which is covert and very effective. Kothar does it, FD does it and so do refromists. Eg leaking of audios and photos.

FGM was very effective but it has short life. Bohras did not carry the momentum and Sahiyo who with the best energy did not get mass grassroot support. Same with hunting or money laundering. Reformist risk everything but then when we look behind there is no one following. Sometimes we can hear the crickets.

Kothar knows the weakness and exploit it so much better. No community in the world except villages in Iran or North Korea would be so attached to their doctrines. these same weaknesses is being used by FD . I have sought help and am financing and seeking NGO assistance an independent psychologist to assess and comment. It is mind blowing unique. The study will take a few years.

Now about refromists as decentralised like minded vs centralised led . Geography does not permit and laws are different actions in one country are difficult to replicate in another.There is also difficulty of democratic issues eg who is a leader and who is not. Bohras are fragmenting from a dictatorial clutches of STS who have systematically ensured the foundation of leadership is never outside their family . They are not trained in islamic leadership models. The easiest is let's replicate what we know.For now an assembly of reformist under a common cause is an option.

Now to those who are concerned reformists are emphasizing Islamic rather than Dawoodi Bohra...are they not supposed be be heading to the same outcome , As already mentioned what is the baseline reference of Dawoodi Bohra...is it Shia as Imam Jaffer Sadiq intended, or the Prophet SAW intended or are we talking about a recent STS diai intended. Where are the scriptures that guide Bohra faith make them public like Ismaili community let's have an intellectual review ..why are we different from Muslims the way we pray, recite, the tawil and batil. if Bohra are right and have confidence and Muslims are wrong or can improve their faith and Bohra is a better ideology why would we not promote droves almost stampede of West Africans , Chechans , Korean, South Indians converting and taking misaq .

Now some may ask is it that reformists are drifting from Bohra , where Bohra are heading day by day...is it possible ever to reform hAve they drifted too far...should reformists try to perfect their own personal faith rather than laboriously try to care about the lost ship...those thoughts cross my mind .some of the senor reformists encourage we continue..also let's say Islam obligates Muslims to do Dawa and as I mentioned all of us can be Diai in our own conviction! That said I am evr conscious that we don't loose a lifetime trying to rescue when there are other ways of being charitable with time and resources



AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

#56

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:54 am

SBM wrote:Since I donot live in India I cannot speak or work for them
but in USA there are repercussion and kothari mafia is running scared
But you already passed a judgement saying hot air no action without knowing what's happening.

It's easier to get work done in western countries where you have multiple agencies that can be approached to tackle the Saifee mahal thugs. In India it's a lot more difficult considering the power they wield.

Using the minds effectively better than bravado. i got added to a whatsapp group started by someone who I thought was hard core abde to discuss issues. Others in the group were Abdes. Subtle ways to chip away at the support base will work.

Most want to keep quiet and go about their business but not get too involved. For them it's a battle they don't want to fight. I've always told such people that if our freedom fighters had thought that way, we wouldn't have been a free country.

Anyways, to each his own



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#57

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:22 pm

Coming to Bohra Taawil. We have been discussing bohra taawil on this forum for over a decade. What I gather from the decade long discussion is that Taawil is an interpretation of the ayahs of the Quran with the sole purpose of elevating humans to status of the divine. That is Taawil and nothing more. We have a couple of examples right here on this forum. Our prime taawiler was porus. Now this is very rare - for someone to actually tell us the taawil of an ayah. It is like trying to get meat out of a lion's jaws (or some similary analogy). It is virtually impossible to get taawil out of a taawiler, but once in a while, they mistakenly spit it out. porus once told us about the taawil according to SMB about the rivers of milk and honey in jannah. And guess what they are in taawil? Yep, you guessed it right. The milk is the Imam and the honey is the Dai.... or may be the other way around. Then we also have the taawil of Surah Fateha on this forum according to the current Alavi Bohra Dai which says that Rahman and Raheem in the Surah Fateha is Hassan and Hussain.. or something to that effect. So any taawil you pick, it is the art of converting humans into idols and then indulging in idol worship.

That is it. The reason bohra Dais and their sycophants dwell on taawil but never real present it is because it is the foundation of idol worship. Biradar keeps talking about the 10 volumes of Ibn Kathir. What makes up those 10 volumes? Here is an example (by the way, the 10 volumes are available freely on all platforms unlike the bohra taawil).

The tafseer of the first ayah of Surah Baqara ( I do not want to discuss the tafseer over here. I just want to demonstrate what those 10 volumes are made up of. After just browsing through you'll know what the tafseer is and why it might need 10 or more volumes.) Of course the purpose behind demonstrating this is to show that nothing like this exists for taawil. Everything in blue is the tafseer.

These Letters testify to the Miraculous Qur'an

The wisdom behind mentioning these letters in the beginning of the Surahs, regardless of the exact meanings of these letters, is that they testify to the miracle of the Qur'an. Indeed, the servants are unable to produce something like the Qur'an, although it is comprised of the same letters with which they speak to each other. This opinion was mentioned by Ar-Razi in his Tafsir who related it to Al-Mubarrid and several other scholars. Al-Qurtubi also related this opinion to Al-Farra' and Qutrub. Az-Zamakhshari agreed with this opinion in his book, Al-Kashshaf. In addition, the Imam and scholar Abu Al-`Abbas Ibn Taymiyyah and our Shaykh Al-Hafiz Abu Al-Hajjaj Al-Mizzi agreed with this opinion. Al-Mizzi told me that it is also the opinion of Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah. KAz-Zamakhshari said that these letters, "Were not all mentioned once in the beginning of the Qur'an. Rather, they were repeated so that the challenge (against the creation) is more daring. Similarly, several stories were mentioned repeatedly in the Qur'an, and also the challenge was repeated in various areas (i.e., to produce something like the Qur'an). Sometimes, one letter at a time was mentioned, such as Sad, Nun and Qaf. Sometimes two letters were mentioned, such as

﴿حـم ﴾

(Ha Mim) (44:1) Sometimes, three letters were mentioned, such as,

﴿الم ﴾

(Alif Lam Mim (2: 1)) and four letters, such as,

﴿المر﴾

(`Alif Lam Mim Ra) (13:1), and

﴿المص ﴾

(Alif Lam Mim Sad) (7:1).

Sometimes, five letters were mentioned, such as,

﴿كهيعص ﴾

(Kaf Ha Ya `Ayn Sad) (19:1), and;

﴿حـم - عسق﴾

(Ha Mim. `Ayn Sin Qaf) (42:1-2).

This is because the words that are used in speech are usually comprised of one, two, three, four, or five letters.''

Every Surah that begins with these letters demonstrates the Qur'an's miracle and magnificence, and this fact is known by those well-versed in such matters. The count of these Surahs is twenty-nine. For instance, Allah said,

﴿الم ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ﴾

(Alif Lam Mim) This is the Book (the Qur'an), wherein there is no doubt (2:1-2),

﴿الم - اللهُ لا إلَهَ إلاَّ هُوَ اَلْحَيُّ القَيُّومُ نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَٰـبَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ﴾

(Alif Lam Mim. Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyuum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists). It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it.) (3:1-3), and,

﴿المص كِتَٰـبٌ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ فَلاَ يَكُن فِى صَدْرِكَ حَرَجٌ مِّنْهُ﴾

(Alif Lam Mim Sad. (This is the) Book (the Qur'an) sent down unto you (O Muhammad ), so let not your breast be narrow therefrom) (7:1-2).

Also, Allah said,

﴿الر كِتَابٌ أَنزَلْنَٰـهُ إِلَيْكَ لِتُخْرِجَ النَّاسَ مِنَ الظُّلُمَـتِ إِلَى النُّورِ بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ﴾

(Alif Lam Ra. (This is) a Book which We have revealed unto you (O Muhammad ) in order that you might lead mankind out of darkness (of disbelief and polytheism) into the light (of belief in the Oneness of Allah and Islamic Monotheism) by their Lord's leave) (14:1),

﴿الم - تَنْزِيلُ الْكِتَابِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمينَ﴾

(Alif Lam Mim. The revelation of the Book (this Qur'an) in which there is no doubt, is from the Lord of the `Alamin (mankind, Jinn and all that exists)!) (32:1-2),

﴿حـم - تَنزِيلٌ مِّنَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ ﴾

(Ha Mim. A revelation from (Allah) the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful) (41:1-2), and,

﴿حـم - عسق- كَذَٰلِكَ يُوحِي إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَى اَلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكَ اللهُ اَلْعَزِيزُ اَلْحَكَيمُ ﴾

(Ha Mim. `Ain Sin Qaf. Likewise Allah, the Almighty, the Wise sends revelation to you (O Muhammad ) as (He sent revelation to) those before you.) (42:1-3).

There are several other Ayat that testify to what we have mentioned above, and Allah knows best.



Al-Hayy in the Quran is one of the beautiful names of Allah (swt) . It means the ever living and in bohra taawil the dead 52nd Dai became Al-Hayy. After he died!!!