Zahir Batin Fitnat : A New Summary

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Biradar
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Zahir Batin Fitnat : A New Summary

#31

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:58 pm

kseeker wrote:
If my mind is high and confused, its most probably due the garbage of STS, SMB, SKQ and SMS... I have never shifted my stance on anything.. the only problem here is that you are so impatient to blabber garbage, you don't make the effort to read sentences completely...

since you are so well versed in the mansoos history, with reference to your example, do you know why the younger brother, syedna mohammad ezzuddin was made dai before syedna tayyeb zainuddin?
You continue to persist in your insolence and stupidity, shifting goal posts almost non-stop and now asking irrelevant questions. But its okay. As I said, you are probably high on pot or something else. If you want to understand the history of dawaat, and have genuine questions, and ask them with a goal to learn, I will answer. At present, you are behaving like a petulant child who has had all their toys taken away. So grow up, and you may learn something.



kseeker
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

#32

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:32 pm

Biradar wrote:
kseeker wrote:
If my mind is high and confused, its most probably due the garbage of STS, SMB, SKQ and SMS... I have never shifted my stance on anything.. the only problem here is that you are so impatient to blabber garbage, you don't make the effort to read sentences completely...

since you are so well versed in the mansoos history, with reference to your example, do you know why the younger brother, syedna mohammad ezzuddin was made dai before syedna tayyeb zainuddin?
You continue to persist in your insolence and stupidity, shifting goal posts almost non-stop and now asking irrelevant questions. But its okay. As I said, you are probably high on pot or something else. If you want to understand the history of dawaat, and have genuine questions, and ask them with a goal to learn, I will answer. At present, you are behaving like a petulant child who has had all their toys taken away. So grow up, and you may learn something.
Since you don't really have an answer to the question and you also apparently don't have the balls to admit it.. let me answer it for you....

Syedna Mohammed Ezuddin was the younger brother however he was made the Dai because the "true dai al mutlaq" knew that Syedna Ezzuddin were to pass away before Syedna Tyeb Zainuddin.. if the elder brother were to be made the Dai before, Syedna Ezzudin would never have become Dai....


Regardless, given your knowledge on the mansoos history, one can only assume you are an SKQ supporter...

I am surely not a rocket scientist.. but you surely are a knowledgeable fool :)



disillusioned
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:46 pm

#33

Unread post by disillusioned » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:01 pm

kseeker wrote:
Biradar wrote:
You continue to persist in your insolence and stupidity, shifting goal posts almost non-stop and now asking irrelevant questions. But its okay. As I said, you are probably high on pot or something else. If you want to understand the history of dawaat, and have genuine questions, and ask them with a goal to learn, I will answer. At present, you are behaving like a petulant child who has had all their toys taken away. So grow up, and you may learn something.
Since you don't really have an answer to the question and you also apparently don't have the balls to admit it.. let me answer it for you....

Syedna Mohammed Ezuddin was the younger brother however he was made the Dai because the "true dai al mutlaq" knew that Syedna Ezzuddin were to pass away before Syedna Tyeb Zainuddin.. if the elder brother were to be made the Dai before, Syedna Ezzudin would never have become Dai....


Regardless, given your knowledge on the mansoos history, one can only assume you are an SKQ supporter...

I am surely not a rocket scientist.. but you surely are a knowledgeable fool :)
LOL. Did he not know earlier that his brother was going to pass away so not to appoint him Mansoos?



think
Posts: 1793
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

#34

Unread post by think » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:46 pm

life and death solely in the hands of Allah. How can one predict who is going to die before whom. what nonsense argument. Even docyors can only give one and approximate day of the childs birth, but that does not mean the child will be born on that day and so it is with death.



Biradar
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#35

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:15 pm

disillusioned wrote:
LOL. Did he not know earlier that his brother was going to pass away so not to appoint him Mansoos?
Exactly. Now you see the inconsistency which kseeker introduces in each of his posts. Every time he says something it confounds what he said a few moments before. A classical case of a person with little knowledge, but a head full of hot air.

When someone was appointed as mansoos and they passed away, it was a way to show the rank of the person who was appointed mansoos. Death and life is not in one's hand, and no one can predict who will pass away when. In the case of S. Abdeali Saifuddin, his brother, who he had first appointed, passed away, but his choice in the sequence of the two brothers who succeeded him happened to be the "correct" choice. In case of the Imam, the situation is a little different. Imamat can not move "backwards".

In any case, as any person with half a brain can see that the position of the chelaas of the four Jamia ustaads who were kicked out, as kseeker probably is, are utterly false and senseless.

There may be other more cogent arguments on why the 47th da'i was not legitimate, but it is not the fact which kseeker would have one believe. However, despite what the deniers say, the real battle was between the office of the da'i and the ulema. The latter were very powerful at that time Now, they are nonexistent and all the power has gone to the da'i's office. Its that simple. Its nothing to do with nass. This loss of prestige and power of the ulema is fait accompli. No amount of arguing by people like kseeker is going to change that. Its best if the reform movement, whatever is left of it, leaves this question of nass on 47th da'i behind and move on. (As I know they have. These fools are on the fringes of the movement in any case.)

In any case, this these arguments are besides the original topic of this thread, and hence this is my last post on this topic. If any one is genuinely interested I can answer questions in PMs.



seeker110
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#36

Unread post by seeker110 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:26 pm

Life and religion is a never ending fairy tale, everybody dies and than lives happily in jannat forever.


Wait there are different ranks and privileges, just like here.


This could cause some unnecessary stress, just like here.


Live right (healthy and clean). Do right and you would be alright. Just like here.



kseeker
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

#37

Unread post by kseeker » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:47 pm

LOL. Did he not know earlier that his brother was going to pass away so not to appoint him Mansoos?
both the brothers got to become a dai.. as it was meant to be.... if the elder brother would have been made one first, the younger brother would not have become dai at all... he KNEW the younger brother was going to die first which is EXACTLY why he got appointed first....

@ biradar: I am not a chela of the four ustads. I believe what they did was wrong... however, I have studied as much as I can of every different theory present today.. ie: SMS, SKQ, STS and the ulema theory.. the ulema one makes the most sense...

how about you let us know what you think is the right answer.. if you can provide evidence or even quotes from reputable sources, I am more than willing and open to change my stance...



tipu sultan
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:24 pm

#38

Unread post by tipu sultan » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:26 am

Do Bohras enjoy this game of throne mysteries and bs about imam zaman and nass.


Has anyone imagined life without a SXX....really


What if I one day found a way of lock up SMS and STF what would bohra do

Will sunset in the east.



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#39

Unread post by I Rizwan » Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:17 pm

tipu sultan wrote:Do Bohras enjoy this game of throne mysteries and bs about imam zaman and nass.


Has anyone imagined life without a SXX....really


What if I one day found a way of lock up SMS and STF what would bohra do

Will sunset in the east.
Please do not judge Islam and deen on basis on present dai structure, Deen is absolute and perfect including presence of Imam(AS).



Shk Mohammed Yamani
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 1:13 pm

#40

Unread post by Shk Mohammed Yamani » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:21 pm

Received WhatsApp message from a prominent London Jamaat Aayaan, a fence sitter himself, regarding Taizoon Shakir.
Apparently, the swift is not true, its a game hes playing with both claimants, hes being offered millions of pounds to keep he's mouth shut regarding the Saify mahal residence affairs.


U.S.-based member of the ruling Dawoodi Bohra family has condemned the self-proclaimed leader of the Dawoodi Bohra community, Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin, for his alleged obscurantist views, which is out of tune with the needs of modern times.
Taizun Shakir, a member of the Dawoodi Bohra family and is a U.S. national, phoned our reporter from Las Vegas, Nevada, Wednesday,
“Mufaddal Saifuddin is spreading his anti-Semitic, anti-women, and anti-western venom to the historically peaceful community in every gathering and recently on he's trip to Kenya where hes busy hunting wild animals.
The split in the ruling family that has been ongoing for more than a decade but took an ugly turn after the death Dr Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin in Mumbai at the age of 102 “Mufaddal’s medieval attitudes never before seen in the one-thousand-year history of the Dawoodi Bohra leadership, has cast a big shadow upon the community.  
Mufaddal has gangs who prevent the faithful from visiting or even declaring allegiance to the 54rd Da’i in Mumbai, India,” said Shakir.  
“We, the followers of the 54rd Da’i respectfully request the leaders of the United States not to recognize Mufaddal.”


I Rizwan wrote:Salute to Taizoon bhaisaheb Shakir his efforts and concern is clearly visible, may Allah reward you brother, but again you have been disillusioned, I really hope that you do realize that ke jene tame aqa moula aqa maula kehta rahya cho, ej main culprit che aa bhadi power and money game naa. he intentionally sideline his step brother so that finally his incompetent son mufaddal can seat on thrown and rule army of abde fools.

Jazakallah khair
This article was forwarded by WhatsApp to many groups.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#41

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:12 pm

To the firm believers and ardent followers of Prophet (s.a.w.) and Panjatan Pak (a.s.), it does not require rocket science to understand a very simple fact that the hidden Imam who is supposed to be from the progeny of these holy souls can NEVER be even remotely in contact with the corrupt 51, 52 and 53rd Dais whose misdeeds and corruption in religion and general affairs is well documented. To even believe such a thing as an Ilham from the holy Imam being transmitted to these thugs is casting doubts and credibility on the revered Imam and his ancestors.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#42

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:18 pm


3-11-1437.mp3
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3-11-1437.mp3
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This is from the Alavi Bohra website - http://www.alavibohra.org/

It is the blessings and bounties on us that we have been granted and gifted with the Pure Knowledge and Unchanged Shari’at of Rasoolullaah (saws) and his Aal-e-Athar. Like Maa’edah-Jannati Thaal (Dastarkhwaan) in which we eat and take taste and benefit of different Ne’maat and offer Shukr to Allaah Ta’aala, we have been blessed with the innermost Hikmat and Ta’weel of Shari’at that our Du’aat taught us by the Razaa of A’immat Faatemiyeen (as). Our Du’aat had a direct access and dialogue with the Imaam, thus each and every line written in the books was in the knowledge of Imaam and his Hujjat. So there remained no question to prove it authenticity. We see the flow of water from the Mountain Peak till its last destination into the Sea, the same is the case with ‘Ilm, starting from the Imaam till the Mu’min. With us this course of ‘Ilm is evident but with others it is ambiguous. Due to the lack of the ta’eed of Imaam and his authority, people and their leaders have mistook the Shari’at for granted and a toy to toggle the mind-set. Spirituality and Originality have been veiled with the drapes of Materialism. To build a Sultanate and to favour their subject, Islamic rulers made their own halaal and haraam never bothering about the Farmaan of Shari’at. Our A’immat knew this, so during the time of Faatemi Hukumat in Cairo, they never brought sultanate or politics between the people and Shari’at. But Du’aat were highly trained to spread the true sense of Deen by making Ahl ul Bayt, the base of every walks of Mu’min’s life.



tipu sultan
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:24 pm

#43

Unread post by tipu sultan » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:42 am

I Rizwan wrote:
tipu sultan wrote:Do Bohras enjoy this game of throne mysteries and bs about imam zaman and nass.


Has anyone imagined life without a SXX....really


What if I one day found a way of lock up SMS and STF what would bohra do

Will sunset in the east.
Please do not judge Islam and deen on basis on present dai structure, Deen is absolute and perfect including presence of Imam(AS).
I have no doubt about Islam at all and absolute trust in the first four Khalifa and 1st 2nd 3rd 4th generation Ahlul Bayt....i have doubt in the some later Fatemi Imams

As evident from the well documented corruption racism and political chaos some allowed or instigated and caused the downfall of an Empire in Cairo.

The Diai some in later times in India became equally heretic and corrupt Too.

There were pockets of imams and diais who were doing the right thing but not anymore.

The above is not an insult or accusation but my belief and supported by research and years off analysis.



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#44

Unread post by I Rizwan » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:03 am

@Tipu sultan,

you can have your views there is no problem, but you should also respect views of others, according to fatimid, Imam's are masoom and lets leave it there, dai can be wrong and present so called dais are clearly wrong....PLEASE do not comment any thing on Imam because thats the red line for fatimid belief.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#45

Unread post by kimanumanu » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:00 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:this is what bhai taizoon shakir has to say about his decision to abandon the qutbi camp. the following message is reproduced verbatim, every single word in it is his own. i have merely copied it here:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Three Strikes, You're Out!

There have been more than three strikes to the beliefs of the Qutbi Bohras.
1) Losing the child custody case and losing the kids. Filing the case itself was a mistake and worse, taking away the children and fleeing from Mumbai when the entire community was converging upon Mumbai for Burhanuddin Mola's RA funeral. The allegation that there was a security issue - also false. The wives and the children were under no such risk.

2) Filing the court case to prove nass - no modern court will rule against or in favor of a religious succession issue. Especially when the majority of the community was not with the Qutbis, it would have served them better to build a mosque and an adjoining residential building for its followers to purchase - this would have provided enough media attention and many converts. Another major mistake was pointing fingers at family members in court - nothing more than pettiness, proving more of a family feud than a religious issue.

3) Passing away a few days before a very important court appearance has been seen by many as a sign from God of falsehood, complete defeat, and a total loss of confidence. Not only that, but no other Da'i al Satr has passed away in a land outside of Hind, Sindh, or Yemen - which are the only three regions of the globe in which the official seat of Dawat al Satr can be established. To make matters worse, it is mandatory according to Indian law that a body being flown into India must first be embalmed and such a certificate of embalming must be submitted to the Indian embassy or consulate in the country of embarkation. Embalming is forbidden in Islam.

4) A media blitz and an interview on a subject which is not to be publicized in any manner - per Rasulullah SAW farmaan - is completely contradictory to Islam. Instead of spending all this energy on such a subject, it would have been far more positive to spread the light on the allegations that Badri Mahal has submitted "outrageous" statements regarding nass and nass retraction. But even after many have sought to bring these supposed statements in the public light, the leadership has refused on grounds of the court case still in progress, even though the court case on nass is over and finished in the eyes of the community - rather, it is seen as a total and complete failure."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

after this, i have asked him not once, but 3 times, point blank, whether he has now re-joined the muffy camp. he refused to give me a direct reply citing the fact that 'i will not understand'. perhaps we lesser mortals do not have the deeni knowledge and the ilm of taawil to comprehend his reasoning...

allah o alam, i respect his right to decide and to hold his own opinions.
On the surface, the above 4 points Taizoon bhai makes are actually very well put and would be something pro-SMS camp would use themselves and are perhaps using already. However, a closer analysis should show flaws in each of them and personally I would counter them as follows:

1. Issue of security - it seems like he is forgetting his own story after the Zahir-Batin stuff he put out on the internet. If that led to him being under house arrest and having to be whisked away to the airport, why does he think there was no such risk when SKQ actually laid claim to the Dai position? Isn't what we saw afterwards worldwide enough proof that this was not going to be a civil matter? Yes, the case may have been brought up on flimsy grounds and was bound to fail but you can see why, as mothers, they would have genuine concern and fear over what was going to happen to their kids. We already see it in that 14 year old brat that has been so brain-washed already! What that custody case has also highlighted is that their own family lives are more or less same or even worse than the ordinary public lives. I recall one example quoted in the court exchanges about use of swear words by one of the kids.

2. The court case over nass - again it does not make sense what else Taizoon bhai expected to happen? This is not a civil issue that will get resolved behind closed doors. Heck, SMS himself declared from the takht that this has been festering for the past 25 years at the very least! The court case has at least laid bare all the stuff that was hidden from the public view. It has definitely been an eye opener for me personally. And it's not like the SMS side is denying anything about the family feuds.

3. Passing away of SKQ - honestly? This just shows how Taizoon bhai is really struggling internally. Is he actually insinuating that death which is something that will happen to all of us is somehow an ishara about the worthiness of someone? So if you live longer you are all good and if you die you are bad? Yes, funeral happening after a whole week did look odd and it is something I would question as well but to link it to whether or not he was on the right path I find puzzling.

4. The whole FGM thing is actually SMS's doing. And he still kept messing it up with his off-script ramblings. So actually what the FD side did has helped take it off the media spotlight. It is what the SMS side should have done from day one instead of doing what they are adept at - lying, manipulating, misleading etc.



Ozdundee
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

#46

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:52 am

kimanumanu ..sorry cold not resist responding


Where did you get the view that STF interview was to deflect media attention or he had any control of the media, . .really is that the new theory around ?
FGM case started when SMB was alive and SKQ was mazoon, both ignored it. SMS inherited but no doubt messed it up. SMB would have also done the same they were outmanouvered . Bohras were being forced to review their customs by a superior government , if it was a smaller corrupt country or India the case would have been shut down long time ago. They have now learnt a lesson for life don't mess with a larger western government ever.If you are in the wrong admit and mend your ways. Real life is not riwayat.
.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#47

Unread post by kimanumanu » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:16 am

Ozdundee bhai I did not mean that STF did it to deflect media attention. What I meant was he basically brought it back to it being part of Bohra doctrine and added the bit about choice in adulthood. Whereas the SMS side, bowing down to the publicity, gave a two-faced view - publicly telling jamaats around the world they should not do it and privately, in waaz, saying the complete opposite. With the statement from STF the media or anyone else for that matter can no longer make an argument to counter it. Whereas with SMS you saw it even got mentioned by the Lords in the UK.



SBM
Posts: 6171
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#48

Unread post by SBM » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:59 am

The whole FGM thing is actually SMS's doing
Really
So you do not think that entire SKQ Clan was a silent spectator during SMB time. Why SKQ when he declared himself Dai did not come out and publicly repudiate the entire FGM issue.
It is easy to get on the gravy train when the moving is smooth. The only reason SKQ clan publicly joined it because it became a hot issue and I am sure Br OZ had something to do with that as he was in touch with STF and others when SKQ became the Dai.
Let us no blame only one party, both camps are guilty of that practice.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#49

Unread post by kimanumanu » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:38 pm

You are also getting the wrong end of the stick SBM bhai. All I am trying to convey is that the handling of FGM was messed up by SMS. His edict to the jamaats to stop practicing it whilst saying something else in waaz is what I am pointing out. You cannot deny that the Bohra doctrine has it as part of core beliefs. SMS actions mean it goes underground now.