Repercussions of speaking up

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Repercussions of speaking up

#31

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:42 pm

SBM wrote:
You are right Hamsafar. There is no comparison between FD and the reformist movement.
Correct
Members of Reformist movement worked to support their families and did not live in posh houses, Fatemi Dawat is still thriving from the loot they shared before the split.
Reformist Movement people did not have high powered lawyers to fight for them to get piece of an Empire, they talked and walked about corruption and reform while FD still praises the atrocities and corruption created by the two former Dais.
Yes there is no comparision...
Having recently become well acquainted with the Qutbuddins I can guarantee that they are not living off any loot etc... They have always worked hard for their living. Being as marginalized as they were, there was not much coming their way in terms of wordly gains, relative to that going line the pockets of even minor players in Burhauddin Moula's dawat.

I think you should put to rest this tired old excuse of old wealth etc. it makes all you lot sound churlish, and defensive rather than proactive. Also, I don't buy this persistent claim that if they had had the power instead of MS, they would have been just as bad...I doubt very much that they would be ostentatious and go around buying up properties and forcing people to do force crying or making rotis or cleaning bathrooms for show. It's just not their character and nor their style.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#32

Unread post by SBM » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:45 pm

I think you should put to rest this tired old excuse of old wealth etc
. i
Br OO53
Please enlighten us where did SKQ clan got their wealth from. I mean the initial wealth.
You are going to tell me that Taher BS worked in Finance to make what he made, Tahera Ben Saheba is now teaching and making her living but
where did they get the initial money to go to prestigious schools in Egypt and UK and USA?
Where did SKQ got his money, did he work like Imam Ali and other Duaats did.
While I was going to public schools in India and my poor parents were forced to pay wajebaats, these spoiled brats were having good life in Saify Mahal and I am supposed to feel for them. Why do you suppose Taizoon reverted back to SMS because he and his family just could not live like commoners.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#33

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:54 pm

kimanumanu wrote:I have said this before and will repeat it again that clubbing together SKQ (and FD) with the atrocities of Kothar is not fair. After the split it has become very clear how marginalised SKQ was -
You can say it a thousand times but the facts won't change. SKQ was part of the old regime and went with the atrocities. To say that he was marginalised is not a defence of him but rather a condemnation. It exposes him as a weak and ineffective man at best, and a calculating schemer at worst. Again I repeat, neither his nor his successors hearts are bleeding for Bohras. Not matter what their fanboys and fangirls say the whole bloody lot is in it for themselves.

If they really cared for Bohras or the Dawat and the Fatemi heritage they would have just renounced all their wealth and titles, not gone to the courts, and told the public here we are starting with a clean slate, no power, no position, no kadambosi and the like, all are free, run your jamats and affairs as you like, just accept the new Dai and his spiritual leadership, his call to faith - the faith the previous two Sayedna have traduced and made a mockery of - the faith of purity and humility. Did SKQ do that? Is Taher Fakhruddin prepared to do that? Don't think so. Why? Because they don't care about Bohras, they don't care about purity of faith. Fatemi Dawat is just a sanitized version of the old regime but still plans to live off of the money of its paying members, lord it over them and speak to them from high on. The whole Dawat business is outdated and irrelevant. The bohra doctrine, traditions and culture can still flourish without the parasitic clergy calling the shots.



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

#34

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:41 pm

^^^^when you do Dawat Humsafar, you do that. 'nuff said. I have never heard a Fatemi Dawat member complain about interference from the clergy in their jamaats but you guys have a lot to say!

You may be projecting the faults of the MS Dawat and the existing Saifee Mahal regime on to Fatemi Dawat in a way that is far removed from reality. There are no ill-gotten gains to be renounced, no vast treasures to be distributed, no interference in public affairs and no scheme to fleece the community. All there is, is a bunch of sincere, dedicated people, both among leadership and the following, who want to create a community that they are proud to belong to. Also I heard Taizoon Shakir mentioned in the same breath as the Qutbuddins by someone.... That's also a comparison far removed from reality.

No one here is a fanboy or girl. Both OO and I who are defending Fatemi Dawat here are living dual lives in both worlds. We have pledged our allegiance in secret and we stay on in the MS world for family reasons. No one is better equipped than us to make fact based comparisons. All statements made by progressives are conjectures.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#35

Unread post by SBM » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:32 pm

Both OO and I who are defending Fatemi Dawat here are living dual lives in both worlds. We have pledged our allegiance in secret and we stay on in the MS world for family reasons.
Br Unhappybohra
That statement does NOT show courage but COWARDICE. It does not help STF if your allegiance is secret. One who is ready to do Maatam in the name of the most courageous person in world should be brave enough to GET OUT OF THE CLOSET. no ifs and buts
Also why blame Taizoon Shakir in your post if he did the same, atleast he defended SKQ publicly and when faced with tough time decided to
throw away his MORAL and PRINCIPLES in the trash.
How long can you live with this double life? How does your conscious permits you and more important how does it help FD when their followers are hiding their allegiance.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#36

Unread post by kimanumanu » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:46 pm

The fact that the reform movement is where it is today by deciding to take on the might of kothar may dictate that a different approach is required. Perhaps beating the enemy from within is what is needed. Yes you may call it cowardice but as religion is inherently a private/personal matter between you and your creator, then if this approach works why not?

In fact, I would like to ask why "reformists" don't consider joining forces and take this fight to kothar on its own turf? You rightly say that standing up to kothar is needed so why not all do it? By staying out you have actually solved kothar's problem as you can no longer influence nor be in their face. Come back, use the masjids, refuse to pay wajebaat, do what you feel is right, and let the kothar try and find a way to combat that.



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

#37

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:13 pm

SBM wrote:
Both OO and I who are defending Fatemi Dawat here are living dual lives in both worlds. We have pledged our allegiance in secret and we stay on in the MS world for family reasons.
Br Unhappybohra
That statement does NOT show courage but COWARDICE. It does not help STF if your allegiance is secret. One who is ready to do Maatam in the name of the most courageous person in world should be brave enough to GET OUT OF THE CLOSET. no ifs and buts
Also why blame Taizoon Shakir in your post if he did the same, atleast he defended SKQ publicly and when faced with tough time decided to
throw away his MORAL and PRINCIPLES in the trash.
How long can you live with this double life? How does your conscious permits you and more important how does it help FD when their followers are hiding their allegiance.

All in good time bro. It is not cowardice but concern for the well being of our loved ones that keeps us incognito. Additionally as Kimanumanu pointed out, we can help from the inside. I am not blaming Taizoon Shakir. What he did was for his own sanity and for the happiness of his wife and son. May he find peace. In contrast, the Qutbuddins have always sacrificed their personal well being for the sake of the Dawat. That was my only point.



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

#38

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:13 pm

SBM wrote:
Both OO and I who are defending Fatemi Dawat here are living dual lives in both worlds. We have pledged our allegiance in secret and we stay on in the MS world for family reasons.
Br Unhappybohra
That statement does NOT show courage but COWARDICE. It does not help STF if your allegiance is secret. One who is ready to do Maatam in the name of the most courageous person in world should be brave enough to GET OUT OF THE CLOSET. no ifs and buts
Also why blame Taizoon Shakir in your post if he did the same, atleast he defended SKQ publicly and when faced with tough time decided to
throw away his MORAL and PRINCIPLES in the trash.
How long can you live with this double life? How does your conscious permits you and more important how does it help FD when their followers are hiding their allegiance.

All in good time bro. It is not cowardice but concern for the well being of our loved ones that keeps us incognito. Additionally as Kimanumanu pointed out, we can help from the inside. I am not blaming Taizoon Shakir. What he did was for his own sanity and for the happiness of his wife and son. May he find peace. In contrast, the Qutbuddins have always sacrificed their personal well being for the sake of the Dawat. That was my only point.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#39

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:30 pm

Those who say that change can come from the inside, are either very naive or totally ignorant about history. Working within the system is no longer an option. One must break free. If one wants to join Fatemi Dawaat, that is good. If one wants to join the local Shia jamaat, that is good too. If one wants to just leave religion altogether, that is good too. However, to stay within the system is to implicitly support it. It does not matter how much you come here and complain. At the end of the day, when you go to a Muffy sponsored event, you are counted amongst the supporters of the Iblisi Mafia.

We can look at the example of Progressives in the early part of the movement. They openly defied the Kothar, took on the da'i, who even then was tremendously powerful. If they had just decided to gather privately and complain, but then immediately go and fawn and bend over in front of the aamil, nothing would have been achieved. Action is needed, and not just sitting around like napunsak complaining all day.

As to the example of American example of slavery. In case naive and simplistic people have forgotten: the country went to war. More than 300,000 soldiers died freeing the slaves and bringing an end to that despicable practice. Imagine, all the anti-slavery people just met in secret but then went to the slave owner's plantations for fattening jamaans!

I partly agree with Humsafar that it is too early to say if FD will be any different. Perhaps they will be, perhaps they won't. However, it is a good idea to give them a chance and see where things go. The beginning has been good, and lets hope real change is possible. Its likely nothing will change, however, at present they are about 100x better than the Iblisi Toli of Muffy and his uncles, brothers and kids.

I know it is hard when someone calls you a coward, and often, I understand, there may be some really hard situation in one's life. However, honestly, in the West things are easy. People make things harder for themselves, and create false demons in their minds. If you leave, yes, there will be some initial hardship. But you will be happier and you will sleep easier. Please be bold! Stop complaining and leave. Again, to repeat 101 times: leaving does not mean joining FD! Do what you think is right for you and your family, but for god's sake, please don't give your support to the Iblisi Toli.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#40

Unread post by SBM » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:48 pm

In contrast, the Qutbuddins have always sacrificed their personal well being for the sake of the Dawat. That was my only point.
How did he sacrificed?
He never raised voice while he was Mazoon and knew all the atrocities going on. Keeping your mouth shut and go with the flow is NOT sacrifice.
As a matter of fact Taizoon Shakir did make a sacrifice when he was personally attacked and needed the police escort to get out of Mumbai.
Please enlighten us how did SKQ and his children sacrificed anything. They are still having a better life style them many commoner.



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

#41

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:50 pm

SBM wrote:
In contrast, the Qutbuddins have always sacrificed their personal well being for the sake of the Dawat. That was my only point.
How did he sacrificed?
He never raised voice while he was Mazoon and knew all the atrocities going on. Keeping your mouth shut and go with the flow is NOT sacrifice.
As a matter of fact Taizoon Shakir did make a sacrifice when he was personally attacked and needed the police escort to get out of Mumbai.
Please enlighten us how did SKQ and his children sacrificed anything. They are still having a better life style them many commoner.
Sigh....One needs to spell everything out over here. He sacrificed precisely by staying quiet. And then again by speaking up. I would spell it out if it were not indecent to describe precisely what a great personal price SKQ and his family have paid, both for their silence (in support of Burhanuddin Moula's dawat) and his eventual declaration of the truth. One only needs to think for a moment to understand what price has been paid. It does not need a detailed description. He could have kept quiet, stayed comfortable and let the truth get brushed under the rug. Yes Taizoon Shakir also made a great sacrifice by speaking up for SKQ however he eventually capitulated and one hopes that whatever he bought by bartering personal integrity was worth the price he paid. This is the last I will speak on this thread on this topic. One can only fight conjectures to a certain point. If you are comfortable speculating from afar, no one can convince you of the truth. You have to go and seek the truth yourself.



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

#42

Unread post by alam » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:01 pm

It seems that Biradar is focusing on one point only. Stop "attending any SMS Event" if you complain and whine. That seems to be your one and only complaint, in which case you are much like Adam, James, saif3 etc etc. and part and parcel of the iblisi toli, acting like a fanatic SKQ follower. The so called SMS MAFIA certainly don't want dissenters among them. Maybe you are one of them after all, or just plain arrogantly blinded with your notorious attacks when people "whine and complain", like you do too. Why don't you come out and expose yourself and reveal your identity, and put your foot where your mouth is, like Asghar engineer or Insaaf or vasan wala?

And what makes you think the people complaining here are staying in the west? That seems to be another one of your far-reaching presumptions. And bohra bullying, intrusiveness and persecution is pretty much the same everywhere.

By the way, speaking of slavery, the blacks in America in 2016 may not live on the plantations like their ancestor slaves, they still suffer and live in fear of police brutality. And it's been more than 100 years. They are still fighting for equality and justice. If you familiarize yourself with the slave history, the seeds of rebellion did not happen overnight by people fighting the civil war overnight or simply leaving the plantation. There was much strategizing, deception, maneuvering that occurred behind the scenes by black and whites, before the first signs of an uprising occurred. Civil war was full of heavy deception and "so called hypocrisy" and "Outward cowardice" just as most wars tend to be.

Besides, look at other communities like the Jewish and the Jehovahs witnesses for example. Excommunication, family alienation and shunning is strong and powerful. I hear they even have NGOs formed for those leaving their faith to help the impact of alienation from family and community.

Enough said.

I hope people continue to tell their stories here as an avenue where otherwise there is none.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#43

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:22 pm

alam wrote:It seems that Biradar is focusing on one point only. Stop "attending any SMS Event" ...

Enough said.

I hope people continue to tell their stories here as an avenue where otherwise there is none.
Friend alam: You are making this more complicated that it is, and are trying to wage a battle, a loosing on at that, with me. Listen carefully: you can complain and tell stories all you want. No one is stopping you from doing so. Go on. Tell your story and complain.

It won't change an iota of the reality of the Iblisi Mafia run by Muffy, if you do not learn from your experience and take action. Not one. You can leave and have a peaceful life. Or, you can stay and be dyspeptic. The choice is yours. When someone says that you they compelled to stay and can't do anything about it, I simply do not believe it. You as an individual are in control of your life. Not Muffy or his mafia followers.

As to me: I am openly against Muffy and most people in my family and (former) community know it. Also, after you have Kothari Mafia come to burn down your family house, please come talk to me. If you have your close family members excommunicated by the Kothari Mafia and physically attacked, come talk to me. When you have your life threatened for writing against the Kothari Mafia, come talk to me. We can share stories. Till then, continue to complain and whine. You seem to be doing just as good as a two year old. Keep it up.

Also, I won't respond to your whining any longer. If someone else wants to have a grown-up conversation, please do. I often like to argue with Humsafar, or, even god forbid, my "friend" Anajmi. At least I find them intellectually stimulating. I have no interest in continuing a conversation with a two year old. Best of luck.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#44

Unread post by SBM » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:25 pm

after you have Kothari Mafia come to burn down your family house, please come talk to me. If you have your close family members excommunicated by the Kothari Mafia and physically attacked, come talk to me. When you have your life threatened for writing against the Kothari Mafia, come talk to me. We can share stories. Till then, continue to complain and whine. You seem to be doing just as good as a two year old. Keep it up.
And Yes Biradar- it all happened to me and SKQ as Mazoon kept quiet. And when Taizoon Shakir was beaten up and SKQ was Mazoon he kept quiet.so yes it did happen to many on this forum and SKQ and his elk kept quiet and yes I can talk.
When my mother died because we could not afford her treatment and all we got from SKQ as Mazoon and SMB as Syedna was just PHOOK NU PAANI instead of proper treatment, I can speak, Where was SKQ as Mazoon when people in Udaipur faced Gundas of Burhani Guard.
So please spare us all these sorry stories about SKQ stayed quiet to save the Dawat when he was Mazoon,
After he did not get the GUDDI of Syedna, he decided to speak up, Oh please............



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

#45

Unread post by alam » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:18 pm

Hey Biradar, it's a quarrel not a battle. I agree with your overall analysis. That is not the point here.
Point is it's the wrong timing and place on this thread 2which was far more focused.
Your usual contemptuous, high and mighty post here served the purpose of diverting the thread to more of the same that has been discussed Many times elsewhere.

Well one of the "repercussions of speaking up" on this forum is that the ole boy network kicks in, with their high and mighty analysis, even though may be valid, gets yanked down unnecessarily. And the topic is totally diverted to the very generalized analysis which I'm afraid sounds like whining and complaining - same old same Old.

If see this forum as serving multiple functions - not all functions can be useful to all members at all times.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#46

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:09 pm

UnhappyBohra wrote: Sigh....One needs to spell everything out over here. He sacrificed precisely by staying quiet. And then again by speaking up. I would spell it out if it were not indecent to describe precisely what a great personal price SKQ and his family have paid, both for their silence (in support of Burhanuddin Moula's dawat) and his eventual declaration of the truth. One only needs to think for a moment to understand what price has been paid. It does not need a detailed description. He could have kept quiet, stayed comfortable and let the truth get brushed under the rug.
Please spell it out. I can't image what would be so indecent about doing so? Bohras must know the sacrifices SKQ made, perhaps that would help fill the ranks of Fetemi Dawat, no?

Surely there are different levels of sacrifices - sacrifices that kings and courtiers make are of different order from sacrifices commoners make. SKQ made "sacrifices" to save his skin and his seat. SKQ sacrifices are part of what can be called as palace intrigues. He kept silent when it was convenient and spoke up when it became absolutely necessary. An insider like you may call this sacrifice but for outsiders, commoners like us it is little more than a game of thrones. Unfortunately, SKQ was always on the losing side, and played his cards wrong and spoke up at a time when the game was already lost. His sacrifices did not do an iota of good to anyone, in fact it splintered the community.

Real sacrifices are made by people who have challenged the mafia clergy right from the time of Taher Saiffuddin and suffered as a result of it. Sacrifices are made by people who speak up, and protest and drag the kothar and its goons to the courts, who are beaten up, harassed and insulted, whose houses and offices are burned. These are the sacrifices brave bohras have made, they have suffered the separation from their fathers, mothers, wives and children, friends and society. These are the sacrifices needed if you wish to see change. Not by the likes of you who sit on the fence and support FD in principle and Mufaddal in practice. It is because of this hypocrisy - not matter how you dress it up and justify it - that Bohras are stuck where they are. This is the reason the reform movement did not make much progress. Agree with Biradar, every time you show up with the Mufaddal crowd you are legitimising his power, you are supporting his system. We can't expect much from people just want to go with the flow don't care about such matters. But there is no excuse for thinking people to do nothing. If not you then who?



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

#47

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:27 am

^^^you are so full of it Humsafar. First you delegitimise FD and then you fault me for not supporting it openly! Make up your mind! At least I took the first step in trying to find out the truth about FD by making contact, attending their events, talking to the leadership and the followers and determining that indeed there is substance, integrity and humility here. Then I decided to cast my lot with these good people and they know what support they get from me. I also pulled back my support of MS, both monetary and in attendance ( as much as I possibly could without being found out). In time I will convince my loved ones and inshaallah the world will know where we stand.

As far as sacrifices....SKQ knew that laanats would be said on him in the same masjids where he and his predecessors had led prayers and I n the masjid that his father built. He knew people would use the most vile language for him, even those who had once revered him. He knew he would lose his extended family to social boycott. Because even though MS had done dushmani for many years, they had relatively cordial relations with the extended family on the family front. He knew his daughters would lose their families. He knew some of his bahu's would lose theirs. He knew that none of his children would be able to go back into their respective homes in the Saifee Mahal area. Everyone now lives in one farm house in Thane! Trust me it is not a very large house and it is simple, as was their apartment in Saifee mahal. Super simple. There were not people given to ostentation. Yes there is a pool ( someone here obsesses over it incessantly) but that's because he had a lot of grandchildren.

So SKQ spoke the truth knowing well enough how he would be maligned and particularly the sacrifices his daughters and daughters-in-law would eventually make.

There is not the kind of wealth that one gains from stealing from the treasury. They live comfortably from the fruits of their labors, that's it. The legal effort is supported financially by the followers. Having learned all this first hand and through verifiable facts, can you fault me for rolling my eyes at the wild conjectures here? In business and in life I place people above product for my backing. With FD I found sincere, principled people both in the leadership and the following so I decided to align my future with them. I don't know how long I will have to live the dual life. I pray that Allah grant my loved ones taufeeq soon.



clippedwings
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:33 am

#48

Unread post by clippedwings » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:43 am

People, please. I started this thread to discuss the repercussions of speaking up.

I understand that there are strong views here, and many of them clash. But who are we to judge one another? We all come here to discuss our discontent with the community, and so we all have the same underlying issue. Why can't we all just respect each other's opinions and try and have productive conversations? Instead of bickering, if we all tried to work together to see if we can come up with ways in which to make a difference, wouldn't that be a great thing that fulfils all of our intentions?

As for me, I align more with the ways of being that FD abide by, and find myself more and more turned off by the various farmans by MS and the behavior of his followers. For family reasons, I have not left the MS fold. Yes, I understand that it makes me a hypocrite. I also understand that I lack courage to openly stand by my true feelings, but things aren't black and white and everyone has to make their own choice. For the time being, I am not in a position to leave the MS fold completely.

I started this thread because I had very openly spoken out about my views of MS. People contacted me directly, applauding my bravery. However, my family have been harassed in masjid by the ayaans and some staunchly religious people. I have definitely felt the repercussions of speaking up, as now my family have put pressure on me to be silent. I feel inner turmoil, as I want to continue to stand by what I believe in and call out injustice when I see it, but when your family ask you to stop because they are affected by it, that obviously has an effect.

I wanted to know whether others were having similar experiences, and if so, what have you done? If not, what did you do differently from me? And if you haven't spoken up, what suggestions do you have for those who wish to do so? Can speaking up make a difference, or is it a drop in the ocean?

Please can I request that we stick to the topic at hand and try to work together in a productive way, without slandering each other.

Thank you



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#49

Unread post by kimanumanu » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:51 am

It is disheartening that even though we are actually all on the same side i.e. not supporting SMS whether openly or covertly, yet here we are quarreling amongst ourselves. It must be music to the eyes and ears of kothar that there is no unity even when we are supposed to be opposing the same opponent!

There are extremes - on one you have the kothar and on the other the battle-hardened reformists who have suffered greatly that their view of everything is as black and white as that of the kothar. There has to be a middle ground - a place where those taking their first baby steps can feel supported and listened to. Remember, they are coming out of the shadow of the mighty kothar, they are confused, may not have the courage or the confidence to openly raise arms. Yes, had they been subjected to the kind of torment you describe then it is very likely that they too would be in the same extreme end as you are.

So, I echo the sentiments expressed above - let's work together, support each other. We are fighting the same opponent, let's not fight each other instead.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:30 am

sacrifices that kings and courtiers make are of different order from sacrifices commoners make.
Reminds me of the movie "Shrek" where Lord Farquad is selecting soldiers to go free the princess from the Dragon. He looks at them and says - "Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make". Precisely the kind of sacrifices the Bohra Dais make on a daily basis!!



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#51

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:14 pm

clippedwings wrote:People, please. I started this thread to discuss the repercussions of speaking up.

I understand that there are strong views here, and many of them clash. But who are we to judge one another? We all come here to discuss our discontent with the community, and so we all have the same underlying issue. Why can't we all just respect each other's opinions and try and have productive conversations? Instead of bickering, if we all tried to work together to see if we can come up with ways in which to make a difference, wouldn't that be a great thing that fulfils all of our intentions?

As for me, I align more with the ways of being that FD abide by, and find myself more and more turned off by the various farmans by MS and the behavior of his followers. For family reasons, I have not left the MS fold. Yes, I understand that it makes me a hypocrite. I also understand that I lack courage to openly stand by my true feelings, but things aren't black and white and everyone has to make their own choice. For the time being, I am not in a position to leave the MS fold completely.

I started this thread because I had very openly spoken out about my views of MS. People contacted me directly, applauding my bravery. However, my family have been harassed in masjid by the ayaans and some staunchly religious people. I have definitely felt the repercussions of speaking up, as now my family have put pressure on me to be silent. I feel inner turmoil, as I want to continue to stand by what I believe in and call out injustice when I see it, but when your family ask you to stop because they are affected by it, that obviously has an effect.

I wanted to know whether others were having similar experiences, and if so, what have you done? If not, what did you do differently from me? And if you haven't spoken up, what suggestions do you have for those who wish to do so? Can speaking up make a difference, or is it a drop in the ocean?

Please can I request that we stick to the topic at hand and try to work together in a productive way, without slandering each other.

Thank you
Speaking up will always have repercussions, that is a given. The point is are you prepared to face the consequences or buckle under pressure and fall back in line? I never tire of saying that when yours is a lone voice speaking up there is nothing much going for you. It is important that like-minded people organise, get together and speak up collectively. Two is better than one. So find kindered spirits, talk to people, plans some strategy, challenge the aamil and other jamat satraps. This is the only way. A lone heroic voice may make for good story and drama but doesn't achieve much in the long run.

Family pressure is the Achilles' heel for the Bohras, and the mafia clergy knows this. I don't want to belittle the problems the likes of you face, but there must come a point when the family's interests must be sacrificed for one's conscience, for one's principles. In the end it all depends on one's courage of conviction. You act or you don't. Inner turmoil is of little value if doesn't lead to action. And your wings are not clipped, maybe they have atrophied. You have it in you to revive them.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#52

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:16 pm

UnhappyBohra wrote:^^^you are so full of it Humsafar. First you delegitimise FD and then you fault me for not supporting it openly! Make up your mind!
If FD is what you have chosen, then support it openly and fearlessly. Act on your choice. Whether I delegitimise FD or not is beside the point.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#53

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:44 am

clippedwings wrote:I started this thread because I had very openly spoken out about my views of MS. People contacted me directly, applauding my bravery. However, my family have been harassed in masjid by the ayaans and some staunchly religious people. I have definitely felt the repercussions of speaking up, as now my family have put pressure on me to be silent. I feel inner turmoil, as I want to continue to stand by what I believe in and call out injustice when I see it, but when your family ask you to stop because they are affected by it, that obviously has an effect.

I wanted to know whether others were having similar experiences, and if so, what have you done? If not, what did you do differently from me? And if you haven't spoken up, what suggestions do you have for those who wish to do so? Can speaking up make a difference, or is it a drop in the ocean?
Hi CW
Listen to your conscience’s common sense, it is liberating from many dumm and stupid superstitious rituals and time wasting activities Kothari INC imposes on abdes to keep themselves employed.

You are on your journey to become a free – thinking soul.

I was in the same situation years back, having started on this journey, I feel much better leaving behind the ignorance, deception, stupidity and slavery I was gloating in. With age and time you will become more and more clear. Don’t panic; keep your calm and first and foremost distance your heart and conscience from the wrongdoings. You don’t have to be loud about it. Self realization is for you to revel in, for you to struggle in, this is your akheraat. Save yourself first completely.

Laws of attraction work very well, soon you will surround yourselves with like minded individuals and even if you are surrounded by orthodoxed, conservative, ignorant, chest beating, feet kissing, zombie abdes you have awakened from this curse you will either pity them or laugh them off.

Having crawled or atleast peeked out of the abde hole. There is a big world out there, filled with diversity, tolerance and acceptance. Once you change your outlook, the world has changed.

Stand up for weak and those who wish to be helped, regardless if they are abdes or not. Everyone has to fight for themselves, no need to go hyperactive, super-hero mode and get beaten up by these Kothari thugs. Saving one self from kothar is an individual struggle, it is a struggle of a bigger nature and higher purpose.. It is just not saving yourself from some “smooth” talking conmen to save few bucks. But it is a struggle to get rid of greed and insecurity and fear that dwells in us that makes us dependent or paralyzed on such thugs who feeds on these weaknesses. Introspect your principles, get clarity, what are you going away from; what kothar stands for ? Else you will escape from one hell–hole and get into another.

Kothar preys on weak, submissive, insecured, greedy, fearful abdes. Steadily and quietly get out of their radar and show them you are not any of the above. They will leave you alone. They too don’t wanna spend their energy fighting you when there are many bakraas (fishes) in the bohra sea.

Your family will always have some nosy, peeky, over concerned, fanatic, extremist orthodoxed conservative interfering panchaayti relative; ignore them as much as you can. (good riddance to bad rubbish) They are harmless farts just proving their walwalo and doing itsy bitsy pushing around assuming they are doing great service for their aaqaa and maula ni khushi. Nowadays kothar has lowered standards of ibaadat to depressing levels.

You will also come across spying local mullahs and sheikhs who are pesky salemen selling Kothari products, it is these conmen one must learn to deal with. Firm stand with limited response should do the trick. Don’t engage with these thugs too much. Stay away as much as possible. they too want quick and responsive bakraas as they targets to cover for ziyafats, majlises and other chamchagiri they have taken onto their shoulders.

Don’t pay, just don’t pay for everything. Pay only where you believe it is going in the service of the community. best, do it yourself. Like volunteer to provide food packets, ration, sponsor a fan, a/c, carpet for masjids or markaz if you feel necessary. If at all you have to pay anywhere, demand receipts / invoices.

If you are worried about your parent’s views on faith and your rebellious turmoil. Don’t be too harsh with them, give it time or just sail along. Slowly and steadily work on their views. You can always practice your freedom and honest faith in true spirit within your heart.

Be objective, don’t start hating everyone, always use your sense of reasoning and compassion to accept people with different POVs as long as they are not imposing, if one enjoys being an abde and loves to get fleeced ; enjoy the show.



DisillusionedDB
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:20 am

#54

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:27 am

humanbeing wrote: Hi CW
Listen to your conscience’s common sense, it is liberating from many dumm and stupid superstitious rituals and time wasting activities Kothari INC imposes on abdes to keep themselves employed.

You are on your journey to become a free – thinking soul.
Very well put, bhai humanbeing ... You are right in stressing about the akherat ... Isn't that the final goal what we all should be striving for ?

I don't pay anything .. not even wajebat .. my zakat and voluntary charity goes exactly where I want it to .. but yes, while extending my helping hand, I don't differentiate between an "abde" or "ola musalman" or even a "non-muslim".

A few persons had come to con me into doing an ohbat majlis .. I curtly said "no" .. they insisted that they had come with Mola's farmaan and khushi .. I said it's my choice whether to do it or not. That's it.

And yes, I am sitting back with my bucket of popcorn and enjoying the show as MS and his minions are providing an entertainment extravaganza.



bohraji
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 4:01 am

#55

Unread post by bohraji » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:27 am

anajmi wrote:
sacrifices that kings and courtiers make are of different order from sacrifices commoners make.
Reminds me of the movie "Shrek" where Lord Farquad is selecting soldiers to go free the princess from the Dragon. He looks at them and says - "Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make". Precisely the kind of sacrifices the Bohra Dais make on a daily basis!!
Surprisingly ! I agree with Anajmi on this.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#56

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:45 pm

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dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#57

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:27 am

The later posts in this thread are quite useful. Especially by brother Humsafar, humanbeing, and the points made by Birader. I takeaway the following:

Expect some consequences. Some folks/relatives will stop speaking to you.
You have to worry about your Akherat.
Find other folks with similar views and build up a group of like-minded folks who act as a support.
Do not carry the religion "on your chest" - drumbeat about it all the time. Be humble and fair and you will be still able to meet some friends and family just as we interact with people from other communities. Be respectful to them and accept different points of view.

I will keep it in mind in my journey :D Thanks for these useful tips.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#58

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:25 pm

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