Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
yusuftopiwala
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#31

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Fri May 02, 2008 1:54 pm

Dear All,

I had explained our understanding of Zakat. I want to know what do you understand by Zakat OR what is your interpretation of Zakat in light of Holy Quran & Nasihat?

With warm regards,

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#32

Unread post by porus » Fri May 02, 2008 3:01 pm

Zakaat is defined in the Quran as a means of 'purifying' your wealth/income by spending a portion of it in the ways recommended by Quran, such as giving it to orphans and the poor.

Traditionally, it is 2.5% of your wealth, or more. It is one of the 'pillars' of Islam and is explained fully in Daaimul Islam in the light of Quran. Daaimul Islam is the fundamental book of fiqh for Bohras.

In practice, Bohras negotiate the amount with Amil and give money to Sayedna to use the way he sees fit. It is portion of the annual Wajibaat collection.

yusuftopiwala
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#33

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Sat May 03, 2008 4:43 am

According to you which Aayat of Quran says Zakat means purifying ones wealth/income. As our interpretation says Zakat is imparting Religious Knowledge and thereby increasing ones Religious Knowledge on the Strength of Namaz.

I respect your knowledge but please do not mix Zakat and Sadko, Sadko is helping the needy.

There are number of Aayat of Quran on Zakat, if you wish I will let you know. For e.g. please read 2:43 (2nd Prakaran, 43rd Aayat)

With warm regards

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#34

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat May 03, 2008 11:51 am

Br. Topiwala
Zakat is imparting Religious Knowledge
Could you please explain how Zakat iparts religious knowledge?

Some of my relatives gaive Zakat but rarely pray and read Qur'an, but they support relatives, poor and institutations.

Wasalaam

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#35

Unread post by porus » Sat May 03, 2008 1:18 pm

<p class="MsoNormal" dir="RTL" style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:
embed"><span dir="LTR">Verb </span><span lang="AR-SA">   </span><span lang="AR-SA" style="font-size:
20.0pt">زكى</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" dir="RTL" style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:
embed"><span dir="LTR">Noun</span><span lang="AR-SA">   </span>
<span lang="AR-SA" style="font-size:
20.0pt">زكوة</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Zakaat is a noun derived from the verb zakaa. It literally
means “to purify”.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is in ayat 87:14, “The triumphant will be those who
purify themselves”.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the Quran, zakaat is often used along with salaat. Both
are obligatory. Just as there are canonical prayers (salaat), there are rules to
determine the amount of zakaat based on a person’s wealth, cash, real estate,
livestock, gold, silver etc. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The amount of zakaat is enshrined in Islamic Law as
interpreted by various Muslim authorities.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sadaqa is voluntary charity and can be offered at will by
anyone. This is not obligatory. Zakaat is, or ought to be, used primarily for
charitable purposes. Zakaat is collected as an act of Muslim Governance and a
portion of it is also used to pay the salaries and other expenses of officials
charged with its collection.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>

Sajid Zafar
Posts: 184
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#36

Unread post by Sajid Zafar » Sat May 03, 2008 5:08 pm

Yousuf Bhai:

Zakat is wajab on muslims and use of zakat in well define by Quran Majeed as explain by the other members across this board. Nashihat is just the reflection of indivdual's thought and can not be interpreted or used in liue of what is commanded by Almighty Allah. Please not that giving zakat is one of the pillar of Islam and its uses shall be according to Quran as well and for all muslims (not for Bohara only). Please read the authentic tafzeer of Quran and you will learn all about zakat and about many other subjects wheich requires guidance.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#37

Unread post by Danish » Sat May 03, 2008 8:46 pm

Originally posted by Yusuftopiwala:
There are number of Aayat of Quran on Zakat, if you wish I will let you know. For e.g. please read 2:43 (2nd Prakaran, 43rd Aayat)
As per my understanding, zakat means to purify and salat means commitments/obligations and they both go hand-in-hand.

2:43 - And observe (hold steadfast) to your commitments/obligations (salat) and contribute in purifying (zakat) them and submit (ruku) yourselves with those who submit. ~ [this is a general universal command in any phase of life].

Sadaqa is charity/alms and dua is prayers/solace.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#38

Unread post by anajmi » Sat May 03, 2008 10:33 pm

That is the reason why most muslims insist on going as per the understanding of the prophet and not individual understandings. The prophet has clearly established salaah and zakat and what they mean and how they need to be performed.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#39

Unread post by Danish » Sat May 03, 2008 11:34 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:
That is the reason why most muslims insist on going as per the understanding of the prophet and not individual understandings.
I don't think that there is any such thing as "prophet's" understanding but rather individual's undertandings. Isn't this why we have countless firqas and that they are based upon Arab paganism?
The prophet has clearly established salaah and zakat and what they mean and how they need to be performed.
True, but then who is to better understand them and how and in what contexts? Perhaps I could be as much right as any other but then we must also understand that Quran strictly condems all idols and idolworshipping acts of any sort, hence salat and zakat cannot possibly be what is being understood from the Arab pagan standpoint but rather from the prophet's humanitarian universal perspectives as understood from Quran, which the Arabs desecrated and reverted back to their old tactics.

9:90
The Arabs made up excuses, and came to you seeking permission to stay behind. This is indicative of their rejection of GOD and His messenger - they stay behind. Indeed, those who disbelieve among them have incurred a painful retribution.

9:97
The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

9:98
Some Arabs consider their spending to be a loss, and even wait in anticipation that a disaster may hit you. It is they who will incur the worst disaster. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

9:99
Other Arabs do believe in GOD and the Last Day, and consider their spending to be a means towards GOD, and a means of supporting the messenger. Indeed, it will bring them nearer; GOD will admit them into His mercy. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

9:101
Among the Arabs around you, there are hypocrites. Also, among the city dwellers, there are those who are accustomed to hypocrisy. You do not know them, but we know them. We will double the retribution for them, then they end up committed to a terrible retribution.

9:120
Neither the dwellers of the city, nor the Arabs around them, shall seek to stay behind the messenger of GOD. Nor shall they give priority to their own affairs over supporting him. This is because they do not suffer any thirst, or any effort, or hunger in the cause of GOD, or take a single step that enrages the disbelievers, or inflict any hardship upon the enemy, without having it written down for them as a credit. GOD never fails to recompense those who work righteousness.

48:11
The sedentary Arabs who stay behind will say, "We have been preoccupied with our money and our families, so ask forgiveness for us!" They utter with their tongues what is not in their hearts. Say, "Who can protect you from GOD, if He willed any adversity for you, or if He willed any blessing for you?" GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

48:16
Say to the sedentary Arabs who stay behind, "You will be invited to face powerful people and to fight them, unless they submit. If you obey, GOD will reward you with a generous recompense. But if you turn away again, as you did in the past, He will requite you with a painful retribution."

49:14
The Arabs said, "We are Mu'mens." Say, "You have not believed; what you should say is, `We are Muslims,' until belief is established in your hearts." If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

25:30
The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#40

Unread post by anajmi » Sun May 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Danish,

If there are individual's understandings, then the individual whose understanding one is adopting needs to be in focus. What are the individual's qualifications? His character, his belief etc etc. Now in your case, would it make sense for any of us to consider your understanding of the quran worth anything? Considering your past acts on this board, considering why you were banned from this board and considering your beliefs? I think not.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#41

Unread post by Danish » Sun May 04, 2008 7:07 pm

Anajmi, don't judge a book by its cover or people by tuxedos, if you get my drift. I am discussing the Quran, not personal issues.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#42

Unread post by anajmi » Sun May 04, 2008 9:43 pm

Are we? I thought we were discussing individual understandings of the quran, weren't we?

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#43

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue May 06, 2008 10:09 am

Moasam-e-Bahar Volume 3 (pages 486 to 519) gives details of different sects of Bohras. Apart from what I have already described there are few more additions shown there:

Jafferia Bohras: In the time of the 18th Dai, Sayedna Ali ibne Abdullah (821-832 hijri) One person Jaffer had gone to Yemen to study the priesthood. On his return in 494 AD Jafer without consent of Sayadi Hasan, the local priest of Ahmedabad, he led the prayers.
He was reprimanded and was asked to apologise. He refused and in revenge became a Sunni and went to Patan. There he started converting Dawoodis to Sunni under the patronage of the local Sunni ruler, Muzaffarshah. Separation of Jaferi from Dawoodis was a great blow to Ismaili sect as almost 80 per cent Dawoodis were converted.

Nagoshias: From Alia Bohras a further sect known as Nagosia was formed in 1789. Their founder was excommunicated because he had certain peculiar doctrines, the most prominent among which was that to eat animal food was a sin. This is how his followers were known as Na-goshia, Non-flesh-eater Bohras. There strength was only four houses in Baroda. They inter-marry with Alias not with Dawoodis.

Hiptias: During 40th Dai, Sayedna Moayiddin ( 1168 – 1193 Hijri) one Ismail-abne-Rasool and his son Hibtullah pretended that they were in direct communication with the Imam. They claimed that they had seen Imam. Hibtullah went to the extent of claiming that he was appointed Hujjat-Laili (senior proof) of the then living Imam on earth. Father and son commenced their separate propaganda in Ujjain but were not patronised and were badly persecuted by the Dawoodis who has close contact with the then rulling chief of Ujjain, Sindhia. They left and went Lunawara, near Ahmedabad. When Hibtulla once returned to Ujjain, Dawoodis caught him cut off his nose. Followers were known as Hiptias. They are almost eliminated now.

mohammed_truthseeker
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#44

Unread post by mohammed_truthseeker » Thu May 08, 2008 8:52 pm

Insaf Bhai, Where do you get these Information from. How much information from our deen is uploaded in the Internet?

yusuftopiwala
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#45

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Fri May 09, 2008 5:46 am

Dear All,

Regarding Zakat

According to us there are 26 Aayats where Zakat is used with Namaz, and there are 6 Aayats where Zakat is used independently. If any want to know the Aayat numbers I can provide.

Interestingly there is one Aayat 19:30 where Maulan Iesa Saheb is offering Namaz & Zakat. So if Zakat is purifying money, how much amount Maulana Iesa Saheb must have offered?

In our earlier communication according to majority of you Zakat is purifying money. What I understand based on your communication is that impure money is mixed with ones pure money, so if he has to purify his money he has to remove his impure money and offer it to a Momin which is termed as Zakat. Because purifying means removing impurities.

With warm Regards

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#46

Unread post by ponga bhori » Fri May 09, 2008 11:17 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yusuftopiwala:
[QB]Dear All,

Regarding Zakat

Interestingly there is one Aayat 19:30 where Maulan Iesa Saheb is offering Namaz & Zakat. So if Zakat is purifying money, how much amount Maulana Iesa Saheb must have offered?

Zakat is purifying money

It is also to BLESS one"s wealth and to remove evil from the donor.

....is offering Namaz & Zakat. So if Zakat is purifying money, how much amount Maulana Iesa Saheb must have offered?

SALAT Ul-DUHA namaz is offered for every 360 joints of the body. The salat is equivalent to 360 charities.

Zakat means Alms Tax or Charity, this is "money" charity. Different from the "namaaz" charity CHARITY are of many kind.....a smile is also.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#47

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 11:30 am

I don't know about the Muslims. But I purify my money by putting all the bank notes and coins that I earn into the washing machine. I have also installed a water-purifying device so only pure water goes into the machine.

While the machine is running, I stand next to it to recite the dua which goes somethong like this:

"O Allah, purify this money, so that I can give some of it to the poor and orphans in your name and open the gates of paradise for me".

After thus washing the money, I offer some of it as Zakaat.

That is Zakaat.

If I want to offer zakaat on property, then I wash a part of the property and let an orphan occupy it. That is zakaat.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#48

Unread post by ponga bhori » Fri May 09, 2008 11:41 am

Porus,

Thanks for a good morning laugh. :) :)

The washing machine WASHES.
The Dua purifies.
Giving away is CHARITY.
Keep it up.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#49

Unread post by ponga bhori » Fri May 09, 2008 11:44 am

That is "MONEY LAUNDERING"

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 09, 2008 12:51 pm

Washing money in the washing machine is the taawili interpretation of those ayahs.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#51

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 2:11 pm

Originally posted by Yusuftopiwala:
Dear All,

Regarding Zakat

According to us there are 26 Aayats where Zakat is used with Namaz, and there are 6 Aayats where Zakat is used independently. If any want to know the Aayat numbers I can provide.
Salat is the correct word used in the Quran, not namaz which is a Persian word. Secondly, as per my understanding, neither zakat nor salat means what the Arabized religion have contrived. In my understanding, prophet Muhammad bought about a SYSTEM, not a RELIGION (Arabic word for deen). We can discuss those ayahs one by one if you'd like.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#52

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 2:19 pm

Originally posted by Danish:
... as per my understanding, neither zakat nor salat means what the Arabized religion have contrived.
And what does 'sujood' mean?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#53

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 2:35 pm

And what does 'ruku' mean?

How does one give zakaat while in ruku (ayat 5:55)?

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#54

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 2:47 pm

5:55 ~ Your guardians are your God, His messenger and the believers who uphold their obligations/commitments (salat) and purify/better them (zakat) while they submit (ruku).

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#55

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 2:54 pm

wali (singular) = guardian

awliya (plural)= guardians

Which word does 5:55 use? wali or awliya?

And what dothe words waliyu-llah and awliya-ullah mean?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#56

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 3:00 pm

I am asking what do the words ruku, sujood and wali mean?

'ruku' does not mean 'submit'?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#57

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 3:10 pm

Originally posted by Danish:
5:55 ~ Your guardians are your God, His messenger and the believers who uphold their obligations/commitments (salat) and purify/better them (zakat) while they submit (ruku).
A dogmatic interpretation, not a translation.

Salaat is obligation. Agreed. So what does it mean?

Purify what? salaat? While they submit? Would you say you submit first and then uphold your obligations accordingly?

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#58

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 3:19 pm

Originally posted by porus:
wali (singular) = guardian

awliya (plural)= guardians

Which word does 5:55 use? wali or awliya?

And what dothe words waliyu-llah and awliya-ullah mean?
Yes, the verse uses wali in singular but that would not make sense in conjunction with "and", meaning God and[/QB[ His messenger [QB]and the believers......whilst putting emphasis on "wali".

Wali, in this context denotes plurality in similar fashion when the word "you" is used in Englsih. It is used contextually, not literally, else the entire sentence would be rendered ungrammatical.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#59

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 3:21 pm

Originally posted by porus:
'ruku' does not mean 'submit'?
That is your Arabized dogmatic understanding as in "organized religion", not mine.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#60

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 3:28 pm

Originally posted by Danish:
Originally posted by porus:
'ruku' does not mean 'submit'?
That is your Arabized dogmatic understanding as in "organized religion", not mine.
What does the word 'Islam' mean? Submission?

Would you say that the correct Arabic word for 'submit' is 'aslama'?

If 'ruku' means "submission', then what Arabic word would you use for 'bowing'?

And why would you not call the religion "RUKU" rather than "Islam"?

By the way, are you aware that, traditionally, Quran suras are divided into 'rukus'? What does ruku mean there?