Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

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porus
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#61

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 3:36 pm

For sake of argument, let me re-translate 5:55 thus:

Your guardian is Allah;
And the Messenger and those who believe are those who observe salaat, offer zakaat while in state of ruku.

Danish
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#62

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 3:40 pm

When the relevant words are put in its perspective in all the verses that contain them and understood contextually, it makes perfect sense that Muhammad bought a JUST SYSTEM, not an ORGANIZED RELIGION. It were the pagan Arabs who manipulated and desecrated the words of Muhammad and started believing in conjectural hearsies to bring about an organized religion in the name of Islam.

zakat = to purify, to better and so forth.
salat = commitments, obligations and so forth.
ruku = submit, yield, to give way and so forth.
sujjud = humility, humbleness, modesty and so forth.

For example: ruku-us-sujjud = submit in/with humility or yield in/with humbleness, etc.

Danish
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#63

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 3:48 pm

Originally posted by porus:
For sake of argument, let me re-translate 5:55 thus:

Your guardian is Allah;
And the Messenger and those who believe are those who observe salaat, offer zakaat while in state of ruku.
How did you get a semicolon after the word Allah and then begin the next word with a capital A. :confused:

anajmi
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#64

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 09, 2008 4:15 pm

offer zakaat while in state of ruku
Ali worshippers literally interpret this ayah as offering zakat while they are performing ruku as in standing in a bent position with one hand touching their knees and offering zakat with the other hand.

porus
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#65

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 4:17 pm

Originally posted by Danish:
Originally posted by porus:
For sake of argument, let me re-translate 5:55 thus:

Your guardian is Allah;
And the Messenger and those who believe are those who observe salaat, offer zakaat while in state of ruku.
How did you get a semicolon after the word Allah and then begin the next word with a capital A. :eek: lumps Allah with messenger and believers. That is shirk. Also Allah, as far as I can tell from Quran, neither offers salaat nor zakaat. And he does not go into ruku. That is what your translation proposes.

In the translation you posted you say "your God". Does the ayat mention "your god"?

Now answer the questions posed to you.

Danish
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#66

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 6:14 pm

Originally posted by porus:
Semicolos and capital are for your education.
What??? You call that education without an explanation, LOL. Even a child can come up with such a statement.
Your ttranslation :eek: lumps Allah with messenger and believers. That is shirk.

In the translation you posted you say "your God". Does the ayat mention "your god"?
Firstly, it was my interpretaion, not a translation. Second, if everything in the Quran is taken literally (letter for letter and word for word), then you would not be able to understand anything properly. Third, one must understand the Quranic injunctions logically and within reason, not by manipulations and blasphemies to distort its true message as ordained by a prophet of "God", not by an Arabic Mullah.
Also Allah, as far as I can tell from Quran, neither offers salaat nor zakaat. And he does not go into ruku. That is what your translation proposes.
The Quran DOES offer salat and zakat as guidance, LOL, but not in the manner you or the Arabs conjured up to become. The question of Allah Himself going into ruku is your invented rhetoric.

porus
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#67

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 6:28 pm

Originally posted by Danish:
When the relevant words are put in its perspective in all the verses that contain them and understood contextually, it makes perfect sense that Muhammad bought a JUST SYSTEM, not an ORGANIZED RELIGION. It were the pagan Arabs who manipulated and desecrated the words of Muhammad and started believing in conjectural hearsies to bring about an organized religion in the name of Islam.

zakat = to purify, to better and so forth.
salat = commitments, obligations and so forth.
ruku = submit, yield, to give way and so forth.
sujjud = humility, humbleness, modesty and so forth.

For example: ruku-us-sujjud = submit in/with humility or yield in/with humbleness, etc.
All these words have meanings that are the same today as they were in Prophet's time:

zakaat = a canonical 'tax' on wealth which underscores that the means of obtaining the wealth was "halaal" and it is used to help the needy to incur Allah's pleasure. That is how it is 'canonically purified'.

salaat = Islamic Ritual prayer which the Quran specifies musty be offered daily at appointed times in rembrance of Allah. It is an obligation and Islam encourages keeping obligations and commitments. But the word salaat means 'canonical prayer'

ruku = bowing in ritual prayer. It also means simply bowing

sujood = prostration in ritual prayer as well as reciting upto 15 ayats of the Quran where Sujood is indicated. It does not mean humility. The words for humility are tawaDu' or khushu'

By the way Islam claims to be both "Organized Religion" and a "Just System". These are words used in Quran. I am sure you know which ayats.

This is my final contribution in this discussion.

Danish
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#68

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 7:10 pm

Originally posted by porus:
Originally posted by Danish:
When the relevant words are put in its perspective in all the verses that contain them and understood contextually, it makes perfect sense that Muhammad bought a JUST SYSTEM, not an ORGANIZED RELIGION. It were the pagan Arabs who manipulated and desecrated the words of Muhammad and started believing in conjectural hearsies to bring about an organized religion in the name of Islam.

zakat = to purify, to better and so forth.
salat = commitments, obligations and so forth.
ruku = submit, yield, to give way and so forth.
sujjud = humility, humbleness, modesty and so forth.

For example: ruku-us-sujjud = submit in/with humility or yield in/with humbleness, etc.
All these words have meanings that are the same today as they were in Prophet's time:

zakaat = a canonical 'tax' on wealth which underscores that the means of obtaining the wealth was "halaal" and it is used to help the needy to incur Allah's pleasure. That is how it is 'canonically purified'.

salaat = Islamic Ritual prayer which the Quran specifies musty be offered daily at appointed times in rembrance of Allah. It is an obligation and Islam encourages keeping obligations and commitments. But the word salaat means 'canonical prayer'

ruku = bowing in ritual prayer. It also means simply bowing

sujood = prostration in ritual prayer as well as reciting upto 15 ayats of the Quran where Sujood is indicated. It does not mean humility. The words for humility are tawaDu' or khushu'
Agreed that all those words were/are used during prophet's time, but that does not make them correct or rightful from God's or prophet's point of view. As mentioned earlier, Arabs desecrated Muhammad's message as per the Qruan itself and thereby invented their religion in the name of Islam in order to revert back to their pagan idols and idolworshipping acts.
By the way Islam claims to be both "Organized Religion" and a "Just System". These are words used in Quran. I am sure you know which ayats.
Once again, that is your Arabized convolution, not mine.

You have yet to answer the following:
How did you get a semicolon after the word Allah and then begin the next word with a capital A. :eek:

porus
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#69

Unread post by porus » Fri May 09, 2008 7:49 pm

Originally posted by Danish:
You have yet to answer the following:
How did you get a semicolon after the word Allah and then begin the next word with a capital A. :confused:
I did. Wali is singular and refers to ALlah, who is Wali of both the Messenger and the believers. Semicolon and capital wwere to clarify the issue.

OK, let me rewrite the translation of 5:55 thus:

verily your wali is allah
and messenger and those who believe are those who observe salaat and offer zakaat while they are in ruku

no capital or semicolon, ok.

No further discussion with you on any subject.

Danish
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#70

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 9:05 pm

Originally posted by porus:
I did. Wali is singular and refers to ALlah, who is Wali of both the Messenger and the believers. Semicolon and capital wwere to clarify the issue.
Certainly not. You are sweating to refute my questions. I asked you as to how you got the semicolon and the very next capitalized word in verse 5:55, whereupon you deflected and went into talking about "wali"?
OK, let me rewrite the translation of 5:55 thus:

verily your wali is allah
and messenger and those who believe are those who observe salaat and offer zakaat while they are in ruku

no capital or semicolon, ok.
:roll:

Talk about zakat, salat, ruku and sujjud, LOL? :mad:

Danish
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#71

Unread post by Danish » Fri May 09, 2008 9:22 pm

Porus, when it comes to reason and justice, I don't take sides and favrotism, even if it involved my parents (as per Quran) but at the same time I would defend them from their enemies. That's how I comtemplate life. Do you understand the gist of this matter?

anajmi
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#72

Unread post by anajmi » Sat May 10, 2008 1:56 am

Danish,

The fact is that you haven't understood any ayah of the quran and have no knowledge about anything that has anything to do with Islam. Arabs didn't desecrate the message. You are the one desecrating it. The only thing you can put forward is this - LOL :D :cool: !! You know why? cause you are an idiot pretending to be smart. Too much thumping from behind has probably caused your brain to malfunction.

alsgr
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#73

Unread post by alsgr » Wed May 21, 2008 7:55 am

Originally posted by S. Insaf:
Moasam-e-Bahar Volume 3 (pages 486 to 519) gives details of different sects of Bohras. Apart from what I have already described there are few more additions shown there:

Jafferia Bohras: In the time of the 18th Dai, Sayedna Ali ibne Abdullah (821-832 hijri) One person Jaffer had gone to Yemen to study the priesthood. On his return in 494 AD Jafer without consent of Sayadi Hasan, the local priest of Ahmedabad, he led the prayers.
He was reprimanded and was asked to apologise. He refused and in revenge became a Sunni and went to Patan.
Mr Insaf ji, i have been going through this site & what little i can understand is that the present regimes policy of taking raza for any reason like nikah/namaz/fatiha etc.From the above mentioned post of yours, i have a feeling that the person Jaffer had been reprimanded because he did not take raza from the local preist for prayers.Can i have your personal opinion on this that was the person right for not taking the raza as he was only leading the people towards god, or you feel the other way?From the incident reffered by you, it shows that the concept of raza was prevailing from past and not a new invention of present regime

S. Insaf
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#74

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed May 21, 2008 5:50 pm

It is the history narrated by the author of Mosame-Bahar.
As I understand Jafer came back from Yemen to Ahmedabad. As a courtesy he should have first met the local priest Sayedi Hasan and informed him of his return. But as he had other intentions he straight went to the Bohra mosque and started leading the Prayers. When called by Sayedi Hasan he must have made his intention clear and hence asked to apologise.
Misaq and Raza were part of Bohra faith even before but the earlier Dai never made it the instrument of punishment and unquestioned submission. Misaq was given once in a life time and there was no question of it breaking again and again on small matters. Raza was just a formality and not compulsory in Jamat and individual matters.
“Barat” is all together a new invention.
Our progressive 43th Dai Sayedna Abdeali Saifuddin Saheb made Raza compulsory with good intention; so that he and his Amil could stop Bohras from making outrageous expenses during weddings and other functions. Remember then prosperity had just started coming in the community.

jawanmardan
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#75

Unread post by jawanmardan » Thu May 22, 2008 9:03 pm

Technically the Sulaymaniya are not Bohra, their Arab ismaili.

Hussain_KSA
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#76

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sat May 24, 2008 12:47 pm

Originally posted by jawanmardan:
Technically the Sulaymaniya are not Bohra, their Arab ismaili.
You are right. They are called Ismaili sect over here and in general people and media call them "Makrami".

East Africawalla
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#77

Unread post by East Africawalla » Wed May 28, 2008 10:38 am

Husain,

What does Makrami mean ?

East Africawalla
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#78

Unread post by East Africawalla » Wed May 28, 2008 10:38 am

Husain,

What does Makrami mean ?

East Africawalla
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#79

Unread post by East Africawalla » Wed May 28, 2008 10:38 am

Husain,

What does Makrami mean ?

Hussain_KSA
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#80

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Wed May 28, 2008 1:36 pm

Originally posted by East Africawalla:
Husain,

What does Makrami mean ?
Brother East Africawalla.

We are called Dawoodi Bohra becase we follow Syedna Dawood bin qutubshah.

After Sulemani sect's leader was forced to run from Yeman toward India he was given shelter by some tribes in north of yeman area called Najran.Now this area is a southern part of Saudi Arabia. The city Al Mansooriya is base of Sulemani Ismaili. after the 45th Sulemni Dai Gulam Hussain bin Farhat Ali Hindi the 46th Dai was Hussain bin Ahmed Al Makrami. Since than Al Makrami tribe or family is holding the position of Sulemani Ismaili Dai. In June 2005 thier 49th Dai Hussain bin Ismail bin Ahmed Al Makrmi passes away. Now 50th Dai Abdullah Makrami is holding the position of Dai. All the ritual and traditions of Sulemani and Alvi's are like Dawoodi Bohras except they follow the different linage of Dais.

The short answer to your question is that Makrami or Makarim is named after their dai. There is much available about sulemani dai's in Arabic language on internet.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#81

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:34 pm

The Kirdaar (role) and Status (darajah) of Saiyedi Ameenji bin Jalaal saheb (aq) during 29th Da'i ul-Mutlaq Saiyedna ‘Ali saheb (aq)

The beginning of the first half of 11th century AH marks the most sensitive part of the history of Bohras. The hypocrites of that time left no stone unturned in manipulating and altering the very sequence of the historic events relating to the most important institution of Isma’ili-Taiyebi Faith for the propagation of Nass i.e. the appointment of Da’i ul-Mutlaq openly or secretly. Because of the greed, envy and arrogance mixed with the desire of getting more material gains and public support, be it a son of Da’i or an ordinary Shaikh, the mudda’i (false claimant) raised his head of disobedience against Da’i uz-Zamaan. At the Intiqaal of 28th ad-Da'i al-Mutlaq Saiyedna Shaikh Aadam Safiyuddin Saheb (aq) in 1030 AH, being the small group of mumineen, Alavi Bohras became a soft target of this large conspiracy to usurp the darajah of Da’i ul-Haqq. Alavi Bohras in Ahmedabad were severely persecuted and were forced to remain indoors by the agents and Mughal establishment who were greased with the promise of getting great wealth and acting in favour of Abd ut-Taiyeb Zakiyuddin and against the 29th ad-Da'i al-Alavi al-Faatemi Shaheed-e-Aa’zam Saiyedna 'Ali bin Saiyedi Ibraahim (aq). This resulted into the Martyrdom of Saiyedna 'Ali saheb (aq) in 1046 AH, which proves the Hadees Shareef of Rasoolullaah (saws) that, “At the juncture of 1000 yrs of my Hijrat, my wali will be martyred in Hind for the cause of Truth.”

The Rawzah Mubaarakah of Saiyedi Ameenji bin Jalaal (ra) in Ahmedabad stands the witness of the storm of Disbelief and Turmoil sponsored by Hizb ush-Shaitaan (group of devils). The enemies of Da’i ul-Haqq always tried to weaken the foundation of Da’wat and confidence of mumineen by their dirty plots and venomous acts. They have not even spared the ‘azeem khidmat and kirdaar of Saiyedi Ameenji bin Jalaal (ra) in fortifying Da’wah Shareefah through ‘ilm and hikmat.

After highlighting the occurrences of manipulation done with the historic facts by the publications of other Bohra communities, the account of Saiyedi Ameenji bin Jalaal (ra) also seem to be shrouded in the mystery. In this article we will make a serious attempt to bring forth the manipulations done with the historical facts about Saiyedi Ameenji bin Jalaal (ra). Role of Saiyedi Ameenji bin Jalaal (ra) is of utmost importance as far as the Haqqaaniyat of Nass of 29th Alavi Da’i Saiyedna ‘Ali bin S Ibraahim ash-Shaheed (aq) is concerned. We would first like to ask certain questions which have arose from the historical accounts found in the publications of other Bohra communities about Saiyedi Ameenji bin Jalaal (aq). In the last part of the article we will emphasize the role of Saiyedi Ameenji bin Jalaal (ra) during the time of Saiyedna ‘Ali saheb (aq) as a prime witness of the Nass done on him by his grand-father Saiyedna Shaikh Aadam Safiyuddin Saheb (aq) in the month of Rajab, 1030 AH.

http://www.alavibohra.org/haqqaaniyat%2 ... s.htm#four

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#82

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:45 pm

bhai gm and Hussain KSA,

any comments on the new bohra sub-sect "mufaddali abdes"?

DisillusionedDB
Posts: 379
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#83

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:58 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:bhai gm and Hussain KSA,
any comments on the new bohra sub-sect "mufaddali abdes"?
Sorry to butt in ... But is there anything worth commenting on that sect ? :roll:

Mkenya
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#84

Unread post by Mkenya » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:28 am

Ghulam Mokammed: your post was very enlightening. I would however point out that your translation of Mudai as 'false claimant' is incorrect. Mudai in its original sense means 'plaintiff'. I remember in my childhood days in Kenya when we gave the moniker of 'Mudai' to families who monied. These families were in region of Kutch-Mandvi and Karachi. Families by the names of Hatim Alvi, Peerbhoys, Anjarwallas, Karimjees, and so on. These families were at the forefront of providing school bursaries, caring or widows and orphans, major fund donation of communal projects like, masjid, Jamaat hall, madaras, vocational colleges, etc. I am talking of the years of early to mid 20th century. It was after the Chandabhai Galla case and others when the then Kothar vilified these families. Generally speaking youngsters would adress them as ' tame to Mudai cho'. Kheir, that was then and now is now. Call it 'omellete', 'can of worms' 'jar of ointment'; it is interesting. As for now Kothar is front and centre on their horse-drawn chariots, a/c accommodation, tikha/mitha pakwaan, coupe de grace with billions of hard cash.

haqniwaat
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#85

Unread post by haqniwaat » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:22 am

Per the Alawi website, it says:
3. Saiyedi Ameenji saheb (ra) was Mukaasir when Saiyedna ‘Ali saheb (aq) was Mazoon during the Da’wat of 28th Da’i ul-Mutlaq Saiyedna Safiyuddin Shaikh Aadam bin S Taiyeb shah (aq) when he ordered Saiyedi Ameenji saheb (ra) to compose Qaseedah regarding the spiritual status of Da’i ul-Mutlaq, beginning with...
Per Dawoodi Bohra belief, Syedi Ameenji was mazoon of Syedna Dawood bin Qutubshah (27th) and after Syedi Ameenji's wafaat, Syedna Shaikhadam Safiyuddin (28th) became mazoon, and then 28th Dai. Syedna Shaikhadam only had a mazoon, no mukasir, and he was Syedi Alimohammad bin Firoz.
So the discrepancy lies in the wafaat year of Syedi Ameenji: Dawoodi Bohras believe it to be much earlier than the Alawi.
Interestingly enough, the mufaddali also claim - like the Alawi - that Ali bin Ibrahim was mazoon, but the mufaddali also say that he was removed from the post because he claimed to be Dai.
Also, the Alawi website goes further to say:
As mentioned in the book Muntaza' ul-Akhbaar, In the Tarteeb (hierarchy) of the Hudood of 27th Da’i ul-Mutlaq Saiyedna Dawoodji Burhaanuddin bin S Qutubshah (aq), Saiyedna Shaikh Aadam saheb is above Saiyedi Ameenji. So saying that Saiyedi saheb was Mazoon and Saiyedna Shaikh Aadam saheb was assigned this post after his said demise in 1013 AH is wrong.
Again, we see this apparent discrepancy in Muntaza' ul-Akhbaar - as pointed out by the Alawi themselves. It seems more like this was written like this because Syedna Shakhadam became Dai, even though he became mazoon after Syedi Ameenji. The mufaddali also like to use this book to claim that Ali bin Ibrahim was mazoon and then he was removed from the post because he claimed to be dai. However, even the mufaddali agree that the word "mazoon" is never used for Ali bin Ibrahim in Muntaza' ul-Akhbaar - it simply uses the word "hudood"; mazoon is a rutba. Interesting.
The Alawi website also goes on to say:
A. Risaalah "Ne'm ul-Sibghat il-Ilaahiyah" written by Taahir Saifuddin and printed in 1371 AH mentions the date of Intiqaal of Saiyedi Ameenji saheb as 13 Shawwaal 1010 AH, while on the Qabr Mubaarak the year is 1013 AH. Which one is correct is not known. Mystery is that none is correct. The correct year of intiqaal is 1031 AH.
So if the mufaddali and Alawi are in synchrony, and Syedna Taher Saifuddin - according to the Alawi - has a different date and is not in synchrony with them, then deduction seems to peril the mufaddali as it appears that they are more in congruence with the Alawi than with Syedna Taher Saifuddin. So it is quite obvious that the mufaddali are quoting things to degrade the rutba of mazoon. Either way, mufaddal bs was neither mazoon nor mukasir, and nobody has heard Burhanuddin Mola take his name loudly in any waaz. And we all know the concoctions of London and at Rozat Tahera.

Biradar
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Re: Difference between various Bohra Sub-sects

#86

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:17 am

Thanks for the notes, haqniwaat. Actually, the Muffadallis, in the their zeal to discredit S. Qutbuddin have essentially created a situation in which they constantly disrespect the very doctrines they claim to uphold. Taking this question about Syedi Ameenji further, if the Muffadallis agree with the Alawis that Syedna Taher Saiffudin got the dates incorrect, then they must also agree with the remaining claims of the Alavi's , i.e. Syedi Ameenji was made mazoon of Ali bin Ibrahim, which is a ridiculous claim, to say the least.

What we see in this particular case is that the historical reality is now obscured by the passage of time. The Alavis are living a peaceful life, and no one is out to convert them. However, the Muffadalis, by accepting part of the claims of the Alavi's, are, indirectly, showing that they themselves, including all the da'i's after S. Shaikhadam are false!

Some nasty fool here was mentioning here that Daweedar Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin (DMMS, pronounced as "DUMBS") was a very humble fellow. I ask that fool if, going against the mazoon, against the person appointed by his father himself, scheming against him for decades, corrupting the minds of bohras, turning them away from the mazoon and hence the da'i, is the act of someone who is humble? Yes, DMMS did not say much in public, but his enmity has now been exposed as having roots during the last few decades of SMS (RA)'s reign. Hence, his arrogance and mischief are now exposed for everyone to see. Now, in the last two years of SMB (RA)'s lifetime, we saw the real arrogance of DMMS. His nasty character came was exposed. Such a person can't be called humble and simple by any standard.

(Incidentally, DMMS made a really dumb comment about the Alavi's after SMB (RA)'s stroke, indicating that he (DMMS) wanted Alavi's to "come back" to the fold! This video is on youtube. Now, this same fool DMMS accepted and allowed the mazoon of the Alavi's to come to him and express regrets on the death of SMB (RA). So, what we see here is that both the Alavis and Muffadalis are just looking after their own interests, no principles in mind. DMMS curses Alavis, and Alavis come and humble themselves in front of DMMS. Then, Alavi da'i disparages DMMS and Dawoodi's in his speech and on his website. So, what we see is a bunch of people with zero principles. Now, I am not saying one should not have friendly relations with Alavis. However, to accept their claims just because you hate the mazoon appointed by SMB (RA) is, to say the least, ridiculous)