Board Lurching Towards Oblivion?

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ajamali
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Board Lurching Towards Oblivion?

#31

Unread post by ajamali » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:24 am

kimanumanu wrote: I still have doubts about the SKQ side which means I am not able to commit myself to the FD movement either. It is a personally frustrating time and this is why I mention above that this forum provides some respite because I find like-minded individuals I can relate to.
As a matter of curiosity, what in particular, about Fatemidawat Dawat leaves you unconvinced about them being an agent of change-for-the-better among Bohras? Many on this forum who first came here unsure about them, are now singing their praises. I am curious what put you off. Do you have first hand experience of their gatherings?



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#32

Unread post by kimanumanu » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:44 am

I am not doubting that the SKQ side is attempting to make things better and, in fact, I regularly read their website and even appreciate them making available duas, wasilas, instructions etc so that I could do things by myself when I don't want to go to the SMS led events. My main doubt remains about the question of nass. And in particular, the period between the "declaration" on SMS in 2011 to Syedna Burhanuddin RA wafat in 2014. During this time all of us were in the belief that there was no controversy and, as I was not a regular on this forum, personally had no idea about any such controversies existing. So, perhaps like many others in a similar situation as myself, the first time I found out was when the FD email/message came in at the time of the dafan. This is what holds me back. I am not completely bought on SKQ waiting on Syedna Burhanuddin RA getting better or that he could not have revealed anything whilst he was alive. In the same way FD argues that SKQ was mazoon for 50 years and the SMS side now maligning him is not acceptable, the other side of the coin would be how can SKQ justify people believing in a "false" Dai for nearly 3 years if he was fully aware that it was a lie?



qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 992
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

#33

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:32 am

kimanumanu wrote:I am not doubting that the SKQ side is attempting to make things better and, in fact, I regularly read their website and even appreciate them making available duas, wasilas, instructions etc so that I could do things by myself when I don't want to go to the SMS led events. My main doubt remains about the question of nass. And in particular, the period between the "declaration" on SMS in 2011 to Syedna Burhanuddin RA wafat in 2014. During this time all of us were in the belief that there was no controversy and, as I was not a regular on this forum, personally had no idea about any such controversies existing. So, perhaps like many others in a similar situation as myself, the first time I found out was when the FD email/message came in at the time of the dafan. This is what holds me back. I am not completely bought on SKQ waiting on Syedna Burhanuddin RA getting better or that he could not have revealed anything whilst he was alive. In the same way FD argues that SKQ was mazoon for 50 years and the SMS side now maligning him is not acceptable, the other side of the coin would be how can SKQ justify people believing in a "false" Dai for nearly 3 years if he was fully aware that it was a lie?
he was not a false die for the said period.
only false mansoos .
mansoos has little relevance if die is present.



mustafazr
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:09 am

#34

Unread post by mustafazr » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:47 pm

As posted above, the Dai during the 3 year period, the one towards whom misaq was given, was Syedna Burhanuddin. Mumineen held reverence towards Syedna Burhanuddin. Haq na Dai. MS might have usurped the position of Mansoos and in doing so, stolen the "minbar and mehrab", but the fact remains that Syedna Burhanuddin was alive and it would be his prerogative to do as he pleases (God willing, if he was to be granted shifa), not for Syedna Qutubuddin to assume power in Syedna Burhanuddin's stead or assume the worst for the future and start preparing for it, an inpatient action one would not associate with Haq na Saheb who maintains complete tawakkul on Khuda.

Syedna Qutubuddin has testified under oath that when Syedna.Burhanuddin appointed him, Syedna Burhanuddin instructed that this should not be known until at the appropriate time (i.e. when it absolutely must, when Mumineen must give misaq to Haq na Dai). When asked by the opposing side why Syedna Burhanuddin would instruct as such, Syedna Qutubuddin has responded that it is not my place to question, but rather to obey. To understand why Syedna Burhanuddin would have instructed as such, Syedna Qutubuddin also provides another piece of information - when Mukasir-e-Dawat Syedi Saleh BS asked Syedna Burhanuddin why he did not pronounce public nass - Syedna Burhanuddin responds that "talwaro chali jate." Further, Syedna Qutubuddin has testified to at least 2 assassination attempts on his life.

Understand that there was nothing in Syedna Burhanuddin's instructions to the effect that "don't reveal this until and unless I fall severely sick." This was not the wish of the Dai, thus not the wish of Imam uz Zaman and Khuda if you hold fast to our doctrine.

Further, one can conjecture more reasons for why things played out the way they did. Suppose Syedna Qutubuddin announced shortly after the London episodes that he is the rightful heir - what exactly do you think would happen? Even if he was granted audience to Syedna Burhanuddin, and highly unlikely at that, was Syedna Burhanuddin in a state to pronounce a verdict? Even more importantly, did Syedna Burhanuddin permit raza to be put in that situation? Per Syedna Qutubuddin's knowledge, Syedna Burhanuddin wants this to remain private, so how disrespectful would it be for Syedna Qutubuddin to put Syedna Burhanuddin in this position, and then, say, Syedna Burhanuddin would not be able to pronounce a verdict? What would Mumineen think of Dai and Mazoon? And given most likely MS and their side would excommunicate Syedna Qutubuddin, what are Mumineen supposed to do then? Choose between Dai and Mazoon? Syedna Qutubuddin runs a parallel Dawat in the lifetime of Syedna Burhanuddin? Both rutbas are that of Imam is Zaman, both are parents of Mumineen, Dai is Father and Mazoon is Mother, their actions are in harmony to protect Imam uz Zaman's Dawat. It is evident for those who can see.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#35

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:08 pm

Both rutbas are that of Imam is Zaman, both are parents of Mumineen, Dai is Father and Mazoon is Mother, their actions are in harmony to protect Imam uz Zaman's Dawat. It is evident for those who can see.
The evidence is that a majority of these "Mumineen" are now in the clutches of an evil "Father" because the last "Father" and "Mother" messed up. As simple as that.



mustafazr
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:09 am

#36

Unread post by mustafazr » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:18 pm

anajmi wrote:
Both rutbas are that of Imam is Zaman, both are parents of Mumineen, Dai is Father and Mazoon is Mother, their actions are in harmony to protect Imam uz Zaman's Dawat. It is evident for those who can see.
The evidence is that a majority of these "Mumineen" are now in the clutches of an evil "Father" because the last "Father" and "Mother" messed up. As simple as that.
Ikhwan us Safa strongly condemns people who choose to blame Allah for the difficulties and tribulations they are made to face, not understanding the larger adl (justice) of Allah in effect. Similar to you, faulting the Dai for the current issues of the community. Complaining on a forum is easy, doing something about it, as Haq na Dai has always done and as the successor of Syedna Qutubuddin, Syedna Fakhruddin, endeavors to do today, make positive impact on the community, is quite a bit harder.

Each living soul will be tested in their lives and has a choice to do as they please, until death comes to them. Their choice to remain with MS is on them, not on Syedna Burhanuddin or Syedna Qutubuddin.

Having followed some of your posts, doesn't seem like you subscribe to any part of Ismaili doctrine, yet maintain presence in the community and this forum for personal gain. The hypocrisy of your actions speaks volume, your words fall pale in comparison.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#37

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:40 pm

Each living soul will be tested in their lives and has a choice to do as they please, until death comes to them. Their choice to remain with MS is on them, not on Syedna Burhanuddin or Syedna Qutubuddin.
And who put them in the position to be making a choice? And if the choice is with them to choose their "Mother" and "Father" then the Nuss doesn't matter.
Complaining on a forum is easy, doing something about it, as Haq na Dai has always done and as the successor of Syedna Qutubuddin, Syedna Fakhruddin, endeavors to do today, make positive impact on the community, is quite a bit harder.
Well, according to a majority of the bohras, Mohammad Burhanuddin is the Haq Na Dai. So there!!!



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#38

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:41 pm

Having followed some of your posts, doesn't seem like you subscribe to any part of Ismaili doctrine
You are damn right. I used to be bohra but am much better now.



mustafazr
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:09 am

#39

Unread post by mustafazr » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:49 pm

anajmi wrote:
And who put them in the position to be making a choice? And if the choice is with them to choose their "Mother" and "Father" then the Nuss doesn't matter.
I see you have trouble following logic.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#40

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:03 pm

When bohras who swear by their Dai, talk about logic, it makes me chuckle.

Let us see some bohra logic.

Burhanuddin, before he died, promised all his "mumineen" that he will lead them to jannah. After he died, his followers split into two groups. Each one claiming that the other is on the wrong path. Which means, Burhanuddin was a liar, since his promise is now of no use after his death.

Next, let us say that burhanuddin was a good teacher and a majority of his students learned their lesson well. Now, a majority are with Saifuddin. So SMS is right and the followers of SKQ are doomed. However, if SKQ is right, then that would mean that burhanuddin was not a good teacher since majority of his students have gone astray, that now means both SKQ and SMS followers are doomed since they both learned from burhanuddin.

How is that for some logic.



mustafazr
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:09 am

#41

Unread post by mustafazr » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:24 pm

Ironically, you've answered the original question of this topic with your responses. Anonymous public settings on the internet have never and likely will never be a good forum for serious discussions, especially for a group of people as disorganized as here with no clear goal. Nothing stays on topic in this forum, every topic is diverted by one or few posts.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#42

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:35 pm

This board is , if it is that is, lurching towards oblivion because of participants like you who are unable to sustain a discussion without bickering and whining for more than a couple of posts. The past intellectuals who could actually argue logically are gone. Who could take it in the gut and keep coming back are gone. Now we have a bunch of sissies around here.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#43

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:38 am

mustafazr wrote: Suppose Syedna Qutubuddin announced shortly after the London episodes that he is the rightful heir - what exactly do you think would happen? Even if he was granted audience to Syedna Burhanuddin, and highly unlikely at that, was Syedna Burhanuddin in a state to pronounce a verdict? Even more importantly, did Syedna Burhanuddin permit raza to be put in that situation? Per Syedna Qutubuddin's knowledge, Syedna Burhanuddin wants this to remain private, so how disrespectful would it be for Syedna Qutubuddin to put Syedna Burhanuddin in this position, and then, say, Syedna Burhanuddin would not be able to pronounce a verdict? What would Mumineen think of Dai and Mazoon? And given most likely MS and their side would excommunicate Syedna Qutubuddin, what are Mumineen supposed to do then? Choose between Dai and Mazoon? Syedna Qutubuddin runs a parallel Dawat in the lifetime of Syedna Burhanuddin? Both rutbas are that of Imam is Zaman, both are parents of Mumineen, Dai is Father and Mazoon is Mother, their actions are in harmony to protect Imam uz Zaman's Dawat. It is evident for those who can see.
Dai, Mazoon and Mukasir are considered the top bosses in the community. yet in the nuss drama, SKQ, SMB and Mukasir appears helpless and puppets in the hand of SMS gang. How did SMB from his haydays allow his bunch of kids to harbor such hatred and gang up on mazoon and his supporters. Tall claims of DAI being ghaib-na-jankar, mojiza na sahib, supreme leader, jalo-jalal etc jazz is of no use. This shows how fallible, gullible, vunerable, deceptive and liars these royal family has been.

SMB and SKQ kept quite for several decades to not wash dirty laundry in public and strived to resolve things within themselves assumingly. While SMB’s son; SMS and his camp went all out ballistic in defaming, maligning and abusing the claim of SKQ. Although SKQ camp remained dignified and classy in defending their stand. How did SMS and his camp grow up to become so vile and use cheap potshots at their rival and involve whole community in their slandering campaign. SMS camp appeared so dumm, stupid, vile and deluded in their slandering for the intelligent thinkers.

While SKQ camp appeared helpless since decades .. how these guys were holding position of repute, power, command, control and ownership of community souls while they could not control hatred breeding in their own homes.

Two sided talks, in big gatherings (majlises) big loud talks and claims of janaat na zaamen, ghaib-na janakaar, jaan and maal na maalik, natik-equran, noor of imam etc .. and when cornered with real questions they plead vunerability, old age, unawareness, ignorance, weakness, helpless etc.

Thank god SKQ was son of STS, such a schism created a big dent in this organized family loot and exposed these royals of their weak, vunerable, fallible, suspectible to human emotions of hatred, lust, greed, vengeance, ego qualities.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#44

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:24 pm

The question of nass has being discussed extensively here. Please look at the relevant threads.

Just a couple of comments: To those who think that such schisms and corruption can not happen. Whenever a powerful person passes away, succession disputes are possible. We see it everywhere, including right after the death of the Prophet. As we all know, One, Two, Three usurped power for themselves, even though the rightful successor of the Prophet was present. See the words of Ali himself about this:

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha ... bu-quhafah

As we know, within a generation of the Prophet, Muawiya (LA) and Aisha rose against Ali, Hassan was poisoned by his own wife, and soon after Imam Hussain had to take a stand against the corrupt and wicked rule of Yazid (LA). Hence, it is clear, that even the immediate family of the Prophet, in this case his son-in-law and his wife rose against the rightful successor. So can we claim that the Prophet was weak? Not infallible? Not the Perfect Man? We live in the physical world, with all the weaknesses and limitations that implies.

The current situation is rather complex. It is obvious that while SMB was healthy, he did not make any public announcement of a successor. Suspiciously, right after his stroke, DMMS (Dawedar Mr. Muffy Saifuddin) came out with the announcement that he was the mansoos. Very soon people on this board questioned this. First, due to the fact that no one actually heard anything at Raudat Tahera and second, due to the bizarre behavior of DMMS himself. His own actions showed that he was a mad fanatic, with very little grip on reality. However, DMMS and his brothers and most of his uncles controlled the community and held them in a tight grip. As such, people simply assumed that the new Muffy Raj, i.e. of more coercion, more greed, friend-on-friend spying etc was the new norm.

As I have argued before, it is highly likely SMB had done nass on SKQ right at the outset. It is almost 100% that STS had instructed SMB to appoint his younger brother as his mazoon and mansoos. Which SMB did right away. The jealousy that arose afterwards and the machinations of the brothers against SKQ became apparent in the Zahir-Batin episode, where it was shown that the real Iblis was DMMS himself. SKQ, due to his retiring and quiet nature did not fight back, leaving the future to evolve as it would. This led to the current schism which has traumatized the community.

In any case, this is a diversion from the main topic of the thread. Which is: is this board approaching its natural death state?



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:56 pm

Imagine that you and your family are cursing and laanating (my word) some people all your lives. And then your own family, and that too according to your own family, is the same as those that you have been cursing and laanating for decades. SKQ is Muawiyah according to SMS and SMS is Yazid according to SKQ. It is brilliant. Allah's planning is perfect. How he destroys the corrupt from the inside!!! And the so called educated idol worshippers look at the hole that the corrupt have dug and say that it is an entrance to jannah!!



Bohra spring
Posts: 1241
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

#46

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:11 am

I was reading the debate between Anajmi and Mustafa. ..could not help commenting.


I had hope for SKQ and STF but like trump they let everyone who was against SMB dictatorship down.
I know people will comment what do I know about Bohra shariat...well it's like asking should I study political science which is practical or mythology of the Vikings and the story of legends...Bohra ideology is more mythology and imagination than facts.

1st the ludicrous claim on nass

Logic. SMB would deny his sons the leadership and give to SKQ a step brother of different mother...fact
the same SMB who ammassed wealth , let people be bullied , loved fanfare. ..fact

SMB praised his sons so many times in public ..fact

SKQ was placed as Mazoon by STS....did SMB have a choice...no....fact...why did he not remove SKQ ..same reason SMS appointed his uncles as Mukasir and Mazoon

SKQ calculated blunder to walk away from SMB death and burial ....fact...whatever the excuses. .Imams and Prophet's had to shed blood to win hearts , so what ..if there was riots atleast the public would be witness to inhuman behaviour of sms

2nd same no reform just cosmetc changes ....just to fool us.
STF still stuck in the sajada, holding hands...fact
SKQ giving their sons power and positions. ...fact
SKQ and STF failed to unite the reformist, scholars like Poonawala, reconciling past grievance or return to core Islam...fact
SKQ or STF have no loyalty to the Prophet SAW or Ahlolbayth.....this includes SMS when was the last time they visited the graveside not since taking power .....fact
STF in all his sermons are still lamenting nass...but cannot attract new following through content or charisma
SMS has taken hold...the unity is so strong with new Mazoon and Mukasir
STF has not assigned his deputies...has this ever been the case in history.....what chances an ordinary follower will ever be appointed
SMS has backed down from demanding money...this will remove reasons for people to shift.