Tired

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
godfearer
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:32 am

Tired

#1

Unread post by godfearer » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:59 pm

Each and every day... i am facing a brand new full of Effort Custom... Every time i visit to masjid there is something new which is absolutely unlogical and full of Spendings



Kaka Akela
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

#2

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:08 pm

Yes, life is getting ridiclous in Dawoodi bohra community. Now for upliftment project quid Johnny (who is sitting in London and enjoying his life) wants the rich USA citizens to go to India in different maoze accompanied by abna ul Jamea (the Rasputins). for the only logical reason to shell out the money for upliftment so Dawat can take credit for it.

Last year they demanded every momin should do a majlis at their home for Noh and aweel of Imam Husain SA, this year they are asking again to do majlis at every momin home for hifzul quran. why?? only logical reason is for Aamils to make more money for their Ayyashi, as if they don't already do it.

collecting money every Friday night and Friday for Mohammedi Qarzan Hasanah. This is non-refundable, then how is this qarzan hasanah?? and what happens to the money they loan out and get it back ?? it all goes into their ayyashi fund.

it definitely has become very burdensome to go to masjid and majlis for anything, as constantly they are handing out the envelopes for one thing or another. I also feel very tired of all this fund raising with nothing to show.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#3

Unread post by SBM » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:23 pm

I also feel very tired of all this fund raising with nothing to show.
So why do you contribute and why do you bother to go?



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

#4

Unread post by alam » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:04 am

Left right and centre, the qawwalees among Bohras is one or more combinations of

ridiculousness of schemes
Fear
Outrage
Helplessness and victim role
Or gravitated avoidance of Jamaat related activities
And rare sporadic instances of total abandonment of jamaat events
Or outright defiance.

I have encountered all of the above, As well as
The rarified idol worshippers (only when enmasse)
Or the even more scant surrogates, who in reality are scared cats who can be easily misdirected to chase the plastic mouse!

TIRED?
I say welcome home, my friend.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#5

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:08 am

Kaka Akela wrote: Last year they demanded every momin should do a majlis at their home for Noh and aweel of Imam Husain SA, this year they are asking again to do majlis at every momin home for hifzul quran. why?? only logical reason is for Aamils to make more money for their Ayyashi, as if they don't already do it.
Depending on local jamaat whim and fancy. I heard and observed at some jamaats they just requested to have the noh & aweel majlises .. it lasted for 20 to 30 minutes and with minimum to nil arrangements. No money exchanged .. if the host wanted to offer salaam they can do so As they please.
Kaka Akela wrote: collecting money every Friday night and Friday for Mohammedi Qarzan Hasanah. This is non-refundable, then how is this qarzan hasanah?? and what happens to the money they loan out and get it back ?? it all goes into their ayyashi fund.
One again it depends on the whims and fancy of the local jamat. Yes there are continuous call out for paying up for this scheme and that scheme .. there is bit pressure also .. but not an absolute threat.
Kaka Akela wrote: it definitely has become very burdensome to go to masjid and majlis for anything, as constantly they are handing out the envelopes for one thing or another. I also feel very tired of all this fund raising with nothing to show.
Why bother, as long as no one is forcing you to pay up.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#6

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:41 am

humanbeing wrote:
Kaka Akela wrote: Last year they demanded every momin should do a majlis at their home for Noh and aweel of Imam Husain SA, this year they are asking again to do majlis at every momin home for hifzul quran. why?? only logical reason is for Aamils to make more money for their Ayyashi, as if they don't already do it.
Depending on local jamaat whim and fancy. I heard and observed at some jamaats they just requested to have the noh & aweel majlises .. it lasted for 20 to 30 minutes and with minimum to nil arrangements. No money exchanged .. if the host wanted to offer salaam they can do so As they please.
Kaka Akela wrote: collecting money every Friday night and Friday for Mohammedi Qarzan Hasanah. This is non-refundable, then how is this qarzan hasanah?? and what happens to the money they loan out and get it back ?? it all goes into their ayyashi fund.
One again it depends on the whims and fancy of the local jamat. Yes there are continuous call out for paying up for this scheme and that scheme .. there is bit pressure also .. but not an absolute threat.
Kaka Akela wrote: it definitely has become very burdensome to go to masjid and majlis for anything, as constantly they are handing out the envelopes for one thing or another. I also feel very tired of all this fund raising with nothing to show.
Why bother, as long as no one is forcing you to pay up.
Why must the bar be so low for the mahoul of our religious activities? Why should constant "suggestions" and "reminders" to pay up be OK? These kinds of constant money exchanges get in the way of an ibadat mindset that one should come to the masjid with. It is a testament to how innured we have become to the constant pressure that @humanbeing does not think that anything but an absolute threat to one's life is noteworthy.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#7

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:44 am

objectiveobserver53 wrote: Why must the bar be so low for the mahoul of our religious activities? Why should constant "suggestions" and "reminders" to pay up be OK? These kinds of constant money exchanges get in the way of an ibadat mindset that one should come to the masjid with. It is a testament to how innured we have become to the constant pressure that @humanbeing does not think that anything but an absolute threat to one's life is noteworthy.
Setting the bar would be difficult as it is a subjective observation, one may get offended even if a khidmatguzar is standing quietly handing over envelopes or even if envelopes are just lying out there to be picked up for donations, where as some people may not get offended even if pesky khidmatguzaars approached them for a donation.

Confident and calm people either pay what they deem fit or just move on without paying. There is no need to make a fuss over everything and anything done by jamaats. Unless they use force, black-mail and use undue influence to squeeze monies out of people.

Ibadat ; an act of spiritual piety should remain immune to such calls, those who come to masjid / markaz to seek spiritual enlightenment should not bother about pesky donation calls and focus on act they came for.

My observations are out of practical reality than an ideal imaginative bohra utopia respective to each’s fancy which is not really achievable neither it is practical.

Bohra community is not funded by government, they are run by contributions from people within the community. there will always be demand for donations for one project or another. The sad part is lack of accountability, transparency and austerity by jamaat and kothar as governing body. One should rather demand accountability and austerity rather than completely criticizing every move to raise funds.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#8

Unread post by kimanumanu » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:20 am

Very well written humanbeing - that really captures my own thinking. As long as there is no coercion then we should be looking at the bigger picture rather than focus on these petty things.



Kaka Akela
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

#9

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:07 am

I also agree that Bro humanbeing has expressed my thoughts and feeling very eloquently, in Addition to Transparency and and austerity and accountability etc. my beef is nickling and dimeing the public with constant demand and daily fund raising. granted it takes money to run a jamaat but please raise my sabil from $ 3000/ per yer to $ 4000/ year and then don't bother me for the whole year. Some time I wonder if all the money spent on mokibs (processions) on many occasions is necessary ? it is sheer waste of money that maoney has to come from somewhere, isn't that consider israaf as it doesn't serve any purpose except feeds the ego. isn't israaf a gunah? this is where austerity needed.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#10

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:54 am

Bros

Thanks for your kind appreciation.

The economies of scale in fund collection and austere spending can sufficiently cover all the expenses of jamat comfortably in fact with decent luxury. What plagues the jamaat is the ego and never ending greed, attachment with materialism of the world.

There are two sides to this problem, one when kothar demands the money and another is when an abde bend backward and head over heels to pay-up, forget coercion they line up to pay. And the subtle justification or satisfaction in the minds of these abde is material returns or showmanship. many pay incremental wajebaat in hope & expectation that their incomes will increase, they toil hard for the year and obviously there income has increased due to their own hardwork, efforts, business acumen, market conditions and opportunities, they attribute these to paying up wajebaat and maula-ni-dua, these chants are drilled, drummed and hammered into abde minds in every majlis and finale leading up to wajebaat payments.

Those who pay under guilt and pressure of public shaming, societal influence or sheep-herd mentality, they are like that in other walks of life as well, they need to develop self confidence and assertiveness. Whole world is out there to squeeze some or as much out of a person. Kothar preys on such types as well, in the end it becomes a mind game. Reformist, Rebels and Revolutionaries cannot fight individual battles for those who needs to reform their personality traits.

In my sincere effort, I try and instill some sense in those who realize the sham and open to assert themselves discreetly. Kothar is a lurking monster, fighting with them openly does no good. One cannot fight a mental war with stones and sticks.

These abde would care two hoots for a khushi of a destitute, but will roll over, bow, bend and crawl for khushi of pheronic maulas, deny to lend money to a needy student seeking scholarship, but will shell out lacs of rs. For building a room in dargaah resorts even if this donation is lost in anonymity while that student would have hailed his effort for a lifetime and even would have paid back. Such is the corruption in the mind, all this to secure a comfortable place in heaven after death. This is conditioned in their upbringing, they play by the world (duniya) rules to secure a place in world after (deen).

Those bohras who are compelled to be part of kothar for family, personal and business reasons can participate minimally. Well just like a club membership. One can always save themselves from humiliating feet kissing, howling deedars, bowing , bending, crawling and getting fleeced for ziyafat, pagla, mafsusiyet and what not.

Enjoy the circus for the monies paid, separate these clowns from spirituality, don’t even consider thier centres as masjids or markaz of piety.

Seeking spirituality is a journey and not a destination.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#11

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:04 pm

kimanumanu wrote:Very well written humanbeing - that really captures my own thinking. As long as there is no coercion then we should be looking at the bigger picture rather than focus on these petty things.
It is exactly this attitude, that is: if someone is not holding a gun to your heads about to kill you everything is okay, has led to the failure of the Reform Movement and also a luke-warm response to FD. You guys are all talk and no action. While the Reform Movement leaders were being attacked and physically assaulted, I am sure you folks were sitting in your house, ignoring such "petty things" and bending and fawning in front of the two-dime mullah in your city. Just like you are doing it now.

Friends: this is exactly what the Kothari Mafia wants! They want you to be silent and not say anything. For them, all that matters is that you attend, even occasionally and fill their coffers with what you can. The fact that you go and are counted is all that matters. For them, if you go, you are part of their system. That is all. There is zero change of reform from the inside. Absolutely zero. The Kothari Mafia is very powerful and will not respond to any internal pressures, specially when they are from spineless cretins.

The only option is to leave. That is what the early Reformists did. They braved very dangerous waters but were able to cause the Kothar to take notice and respond. Now, the lack of support from the rotund Bohri sheep meant that their movement eventually failed. But they stood up and did something brave and courageous.

All of you folks who continue to attend the Kothari Mafia events are just letting out flatulence with your mouths. All hot air and no action. No courage to stand up for what is right. And, not a lot of courage is needed! Leave this Iblisi Toli! No one will come after you. Your fear is unjustified. In fact, I am sure it is not fear which is keeping you away, but the fact that you do not want to sacrifice mouth watering dishes. In fact, as humanbeing says, for him it is entertainment and he is okay with shelling out a few bucks to see it. Well, in that case, what hope of change is there?



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#12

Unread post by kimanumanu » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:15 pm

I disagree bhai Biradar. I have resolved that I will not let Kothar win. That means I will not pay anything more than what I feel is justified. I attend events that are meaningful to me at a spiritual level. Why should I have to leave to prove that I am against them? What has that achieved for the brave reformists? The times are different now. We have the internet, laws that can protect you, so there is no need to leave. I would much rather continue with my struggle internally. Is there any chance of success? Who knows - did we see the split coming in 2014? Allah SWT works in his own mysterious ways. I once again request that instead of heaping criticism on people like myself, how about supporting and encouraging? The fact that we are even posting here is already a step in the right direction. Why make discouraging comments?



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#13

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:41 pm

kimanumanu wrote:I disagree bhai Biradar. I have resolved that I will not let Kothar win. That means I will not pay anything more than what I feel is justified. I attend events that are meaningful to me at a spiritual level. Why should I have to leave to prove that I am against them? What has that achieved for the brave reformists? The times are different now. We have the internet, laws that can protect you, so there is no need to leave. I would much rather continue with my struggle internally. Is there any chance of success? Who knows - did we see the split coming in 2014? Allah SWT works in his own mysterious ways. I once again request that instead of heaping criticism on people like myself, how about supporting and encouraging? The fact that we are even posting here is already a step in the right direction. Why make discouraging comments?
Look: there are a lot of people here who will support you, mollycoddle you. I, on the other hand, want to show you that you are not doing anything to change the system, just sitting quietly and letting the Kothari Mafia do as they like. As far as they are concerned, you are a little sheep, one amongst a lot of sheep they fleece regularly.

You ask what the Reformists achieved. Let me put it this way: it was not for lack of trying, but for the lack of enough people to support them against the monstrous Kothari machine. As has been discussed many times here, people like yourself choose to sit quietly in the corner while the brave leaders were being beaten, humiliated and harassed. Now how do you expect any change?

Also, don't get upset. This is not a board for little sensitive snowflakes. You need to understand that I really support you, and sympathize with you. I do not agree with your stance and will voice my opinion that it is a coward's stance. That does not mean I am making discouraging comments. I want you to grow a spine and take a stand for what is right. Not hide under a rida. If only a small number of people wake up, others will take courage and do the same. Then we will see change. Instead, what we have is a bunch of people hiding and making noise. Worse, some think it is all entertainment and are paying like they do for a movie ticket. Well, good luck! Don't complain then and sell yourself and others short.




think
Posts: 1766
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

#14

Unread post by think » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:05 pm

milad un nabi majlis in Atlanta; old re run of s.m.b. where he states that proudness is what Allah hates, well sir, what are all these fetawalas sheikhs and mullas sitting in the front row and special food for the bhaisaheb and sheikh thaals. these special treatments are there because the guy paid you a good amount of money so he can have a feta and enjoy front row seats. If this is not proudness and show off then what is. I can assure you these sheiklhs are not made sheikhs because of their knowledge, some of them cannot even recite the quraan. Practice before you preach.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#15

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:37 am

Biradar wrote:It is exactly this attitude, that is: if someone is not holding a gun to your heads about to kill you everything is okay, has led to the failure of the Reform Movement and also a luke-warm response to FD. You guys are all talk and no action.
Jumping to quick conclusions, your opinions are as rigid as kothar and FDs. Who said there is no action. I choose to act at micro level while you want a macro level collective rebellion of revolution of sort. Kothar has build its roots since decades or heck centuries.

When I was opening up from being an abde and reading from all directions, my blood boiled too looking at the deception I was living into. I yelled, objected, ridiculed, confronted, demanded and questioned wrong happening in the jamat and community. I was all out for becoming a hero, savior of the weak. I felt confident in my communication and debating skills, felt I could take down sheikhs and mullahs with common sense.

I was an angry bull in Kothari shop. But kothar, its jamat members were calm as ever, they have faced many a such rebellion and they have all the political and social clout to subjugate any such rebellion. They are not sitting idle waiting for rebels to come forward. Lawsuits, Raid warning, Conscience calls nothing deters them.

I don’t see reform movement as failure, I wonder why do you consider so ? Reformist bohras chose to go out of the kothari system and created a new reformist system, that and there they were successful in creating a new system in given geographies. Why would one leverage success of one system on downfall of another system. Luke warm response to FD is because SKQ took lukewarm actions all his life.
Biradar wrote:While the Reform Movement leaders were being attacked and physically assaulted, I am sure you folks were sitting in your house, ignoring such "petty things" and bending and fawning in front of the two-dime mullah in your city. Just like you are doing it now.
Physical assault is an extreme measure, I would at least stand up and defend that person from getting beaten up, pacify the situation and warn the perpetrators, there is no justification whatsoever to resort to violence. There are simple on-the-spot law enforcement solution rather then going into blame game on people sitting 1000 of miles away as silent spectators.

No one is calling physical assault “petty things”, don’t mix up topics of discussion, Also, the ones who considers kothar insignificant spiritually and religiously and reduces it mere entertainment are not bending, fawning, bowing, crawling at two-dime mullahs or even higher rank ponga pandits.
Biradar wrote:Friends: this is exactly what the Kothari Mafia wants! They want you to be silent and not say anything. For them, all that matters is that you attend, even occasionally and fill their coffers with what you can. The fact that you go and are counted is all that matters. For them, if you go, you are part of their system. That is all. There is zero change of reform from the inside. Absolutely zero. The Kothari Mafia is very powerful and will not respond to any internal pressures, specially when they are from spineless cretins.
Kothar does not care if one attends or not. Kothar also does not care if one pays or not. They have sufficient number of abde and sufficiently limited number of fanatic abdes at their disposal to fund their ayyashi. Kothar does not stop anyone from leaving the community, they would be more glad if a free-thinker, rebel minded, conscience-oriented, common sensical, intelligent, educated, influential bohra leaves the system. Because that bohra can do more damage within the system. Kothar wants gullible, ignorant people to remain in the fold. They will make up the numbers by reproduction or hibernate with fanatical abdes, go into an austere mode only to rise again when very powerful, something that FD would evolve into.

One can question the system, if you are in the system. One can ask accountability if one pays the system. You cant complain and change Indian Railways working in shinkansen trains.
Biradar wrote:The only option is to leave. That is what the early Reformists did. They braved very dangerous waters but were able to cause the Kothar to take notice and respond. Now, the lack of support from the rotund Bohri sheep meant that their movement eventually failed. But they stood up and did something brave and courageous.
Leave is to quit. They quit Kothari system and started their own system. That and there was the solution. Kothar took notice of the competition and resolved to become more stronger, by hook, crook and strategy. While reformist movement innocently, naively relied on indian legal system to deliver justice. While kothar spent time garnering popularity knowing that glamour will shadow truth. They coated their defeat in larger than life campaigns. Eventually reform movement inspite of winning justice were pushed to oblivion. Hoping younger generation will carry the baton of their failed strategies to follow dead paced legal proceedings that does not really matter to kothar.

Subjugation, oppression and fleecing of bohras has been happening from a long time of STS rule, yet reformist bohras woke up to rebel at times of SMB when their rights, convenience and comforts were trampled. Reformist leaders took a brave and heroic move to physically rebel, while kothar was playing the mental game. It was brain Vs brawn. Kothar knows they cannot fight a fair game, they cannot debate in public and their premise is flawed. How can one expect to tame these deceptive monster by opening up all the cards.
Biradar wrote:All of you folks who continue to attend the Kothari Mafia events are just letting out flatulence with your mouths. All hot air and no action. No courage to stand up for what is right. And, not a lot of courage is needed! Leave this Iblisi Toli! No one will come after you. Your fear is unjustified. In fact, I am sure it is not fear which is keeping you away, but the fact that you do not want to sacrifice mouth watering dishes. In fact, as humanbeing says, for him it is entertainment and he is okay with shelling out a few bucks to see it. Well, in that case, what hope of change is there?
You conveniently put yourself on higher moral ground just because some do not subscribe to your strategy of reform. Seriously, do you feel bohra remain in the fold for mouth-watering mass cooked jamans !! which is mostly cooked in and by unhygienic conditions. This would be last of priority or choice in the list of bohras to remain in the SMS-Kothari fold. If a bohra says there are social and business reason, I respect that because; livelihood, safety, affiliation and identity are attached to it. There is no absolute, cut-short, simple solution to evolve into something else. There are 100 other headaches, injustice and loot one faces in the society some we fight some we let go. So is the case of kothar, just another institution to live with like Government machinery.

I respect your stand and open to adapt to any strategy that one feels is most apt to his strength and weakness, environment and ability. Don’t have to call others a farting idiot just because they chose to fight in different way. Joining hands with rigid reformers and rebels like you is joining another cult with bull-headed leaders yelling down at his compatriots and followers as farting idiots just the way grumpy grandpa SMS does sitting higher.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#16

Unread post by kimanumanu » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:49 am

Thank you humanbeing for so eloquently putting into words my own personal thoughts. I was mulling over a response to Biradar but could not quite come up with exactly the kind of write up you have done. I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to contribute and gives me lots of assurance and confidence that there is at least one other person thinking like me.



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#17

Unread post by I Rizwan » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:39 am

Truth is at present bohras have no option but muffy, SKQ has lost this battle long back when he was silent about every wrong thing around him, his son is busy in US trading stocks.

normal bohras have worry to marry their daughter to a bohra dude because muslim man is not an option for them.

normal bohra cant imagine them self praying with other muslims.

normal bohra cant mingle with other muslims because they are too proud to be bohra.



think
Posts: 1766
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

#18

Unread post by think » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:01 pm

bohra deen sirif dunya ke lye hai, akherat ke lye nahin.you can judge this from the ayashi of the kothar and its goons.
Have seen cross married punjabi, khoja and hindu all sitting in one thaal together with the bohris in Atlanta jamaat. Many bohri girls and boys have married in other cultures. Boys have married white christian girls and black girls and bohri girls have married hindu boys. cross culture is every where. The world is changing.
One mumin asked the kothar to recommend a girl for his sons marraige. Kothar got his son to marry a girl from Yemen. The girl got her green card because the boy was from u.s. and now the whole yemeni family has shifted to Atlanta and come in markaz wearing their long arabic jhubba instead of saya kurta.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#19

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:46 pm

kimanumanu wrote:Thank you humanbeing for so eloquently putting into words my own personal thoughts. I was mulling over a response to Biradar but could not quite come up with exactly the kind of write up you have done. I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to contribute and gives me lots of assurance and confidence that there is at least one other person thinking like me.
As they say: a blind man leading the deaf man. Please get a room you two.



Kaka Akela
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

#20

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:29 am

Bro Biradar:

Please don't resort to name calling. Calling us deaf and mute is not furthering the discussion civil-ly. I am in my early 80s and I have seen in my youth the pristine times of dawat and I keep believing those days might come back some day hopefully in my lifetime. out of my 80 years of life only the last 25 years have been tiresome and burden-ing. Like they say you can not throw the baby with the bath water, how do you expect me to just drop all my connections, cut all my roots, abandon my friends and family and move over to FD to spite the only belief i have eld in my heart for all these years. it is not easy. I am not hanging in this religion to be buried in DB qabrastan, because I believe when I die my chopdas are shut and where my body ends up is not of any consequence, but it matters to me a lot while my heart is still ticking where and with who i spend my time with. May be if I was young like you it would be a different matter.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#21

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:48 am

Kaka Akela wrote:Bro Biradar:

Please don't resort to name calling. Calling us deaf and mute is not furthering the discussion civil-ly.
Not name calling. Only pointing out the obvious. Anyway, it was not directed to you.

I have a very simple point: complaining is good. Action is better. "Micro" action is not good enough. Time for "micro" action is gone. But that is my opinion. Obviously, you should feel free to do what you like. Just don't expect me to say "waah waah" and pat you on the back.



Kaka Akela
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

#22

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:20 pm

Bro Biradar:

I am not expecting any wah wah at all just expressing my opinion same as you are. The difference between your expression and mine is, i am not pushing my agenda on anyone like you are doing for all of us to join FD otherwise we are deaf, mute and cowards.

There are two aspects to any religion, one is the religious dogma and the other is the administrative Part. I have great love for our religious dogma, but most of my posting are about the insatiable greed and corruption in the ranks of administration at all levels.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#23

Unread post by kimanumanu » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:32 pm

I am glad that this thread was started. It turns out Kaka Akela as well has similar thoughts like me. So Biradar bhai the room will need to be bigger :D



Conscíous
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

#24

Unread post by Conscíous » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:12 pm

kimanumanu wrote:I disagree bhai Biradar.

I have resolved that I will not let Kothar win. That means I will not pay anything more than what I feel is justified. I attend events that are meaningful to me at a spiritual level. Why should I have to leave to prove that I am against them?
Br Kimanumanu,
You are fighting a losing battle. There is nothing to win apart from your freedom (If you ever had it). Allah has created you are free man and given you free will. This religion is there creation and you are just a drop of water in the sea. Your presence in this community is not going to change anything.
Just look at all those who have been battling before you?
Where are they now?
You'll just end up like them. Old, bitter at life and turn to dust.
kimanumanu wrote:What has that achieved for the brave reformists?

The brave reformist have saved their next generation (children) from this sickness of slavery.
Taught them to be their own masters.
Stopped them from getting brainwashed.
A future which they dreamed once for themselves.
kimanumanu wrote:The times are different now. We have the internet, laws that can protect you, so there is no need to leave.
Thats exactly what the generation before you were saying.
kimanumanu wrote: I once again request that instead of heaping criticism on people like myself, how about supporting and encouraging? The fact that we are even posting here is already a step in the right direction. Why make discouraging comments?
I dont mean to come hard on you, I'm just pointing out the facts of life. This forum is a good place to open your mind. But dont fall into the same habit like many others, which is only time pass if you ask me.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#25

Unread post by kimanumanu » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:30 pm

At the heart of all this is the fact that eventually everything comes down to each individual's own situation and choice in life. We are all accountable in front of the Almighty for our own deeds and no mortal human can claim to know what is in another's heart. Suffice to say that, as the saying goes, "one man's trash is another man's treasure" - to each their own and yes this may be time pass for some and eye opening for others. My main argument is to be positive in life. Bitterness is what comes about from negativity. Have a positive outlook and let Allah SWT be the ultimate judge. I firmly believe that there is justice in this world and each human being does get theirs.



Conscíous
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

#26

Unread post by Conscíous » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:15 am

kimanumanu wrote:Bitterness is what comes about from negativity.
You'll experience bitterness when you are oppressed, which happens on a daily bases in this community.
You'll experience bitterness when you have no control over your life or surroundings.
Bitterness will come, when you have absolutely made zero change and all this fights have gone in vain.
Bitterness will come when think back of the future you once dreamed of having and the reality you've lived.
kimanumanu wrote: I firmly believe that there is justice in this world and each human being does get theirs.
This is quiet naive way of thinking. Just look back at history and let it be your guide. And you'll soon find out, how unjust really this world is.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#27

Unread post by kimanumanu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:04 am

It's clear you have a very different perspective to life than mine so this is where we "agree to disagree" :)
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Kaka Akela
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

#28

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:54 pm

Bro conscious:

You have left the fold and you are the one who sounds bitter. My way of fighting the gigantic kothar is NON-Cooperation (gandhi's way) in all unnecessary fund-raisings that only contributes to their Ayyashi. I do pay willingly my Sabil and Wajebaat but for anything else zip, zero, nada. if enough people did that the giant will wake up and mend its ways.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#29

Unread post by SBM » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:04 pm

I do pay willingly my Sabil and Wajebaat
And who fixes the amount of Wajebaat and Sabil? :?



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#30

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:53 pm

Kaka Akela wrote:Bro conscious:

You have left the fold and you are the one who sounds bitter. My way of fighting the gigantic kothar is NON-Cooperation (gandhi's way) in all unnecessary fund-raisings that only contributes to their Ayyashi. I do pay willingly my Sabil and Wajebaat but for anything else zip, zero, nada. if enough people did that the giant will wake up and mend its ways.
I think you should apply for the Nobel Peace Prize. You are very brave and doing an amazing job. But, I wonder if Gandhi did what he did secretly while still licking the collective British butts?

And which century are you living in? You think by submissively going to their events and just paying sabeel and wajeebat "the giant will wake up and mend its ways". I mean, LOL! You are so naive! Are you living in la-la land?

I believe "conscious" said the right thing. You need to make a sacrifice of a few kaaras and mithaas for your kids. Even if it too late for you, and you enjoy the tamaasha and licking the behind of the local two-cent mullah, please think carefully about the future generations. Do you want them to be like you, spineless cretins, bending and fawning in front of the uneducated mullah? I mean, even if you do not physically bend and fawn, your presence in their jamaat and events is basically you capitulating to them.

Again, don't get me wrong. I don't care if you hide under a rida. No problem. But please don't expect others to thank you for doing nothing.