Tired

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Tired

#31

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:36 pm

kimanumanu wrote:I am glad that this thread was started. It turns out Kaka Akela as well has similar thoughts like me. So Biradar bhai the room will need to be bigger :D
I believe that I have some similarity in thougths as you, Br. kimanumanu.

I do not know them personally , but based on their postings, folks such as OO53, Br. unhappy_bohra, and other have similar thinking too.

And I also want to thank and acknowledge Br. Humanbeing for well thought out writings. He said what was in my mind, but much better than what I would have written.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#32

Unread post by kimanumanu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:15 pm

Biradar wrote: I think you should apply for the Nobel Peace Prize. You are very brave and doing an amazing job. But, I wonder if Gandhi did what he did secretly while still licking the collective British butts?

And which century are you living in? You think by submissively going to their events and just paying sabeel and wajeebat "the giant will wake up and mend its ways". I mean, LOL! You are so naive! Are you living in la-la land?

I believe "conscious" said the right thing. You need to make a sacrifice of a few kaaras and mithaas for your kids. Even if it too late for you, and you enjoy the tamaasha and licking the behind of the local two-cent mullah, please think carefully about the future generations. Do you want them to be like you, spineless cretins, bending and fawning in front of the uneducated mullah? I mean, even if you do not physically bend and fawn, your presence in their jamaat and events is basically you capitulating to them.

Again, don't get me wrong. I don't care if you hide under a rida. No problem. But please don't expect others to thank you for doing nothing.
Have to admit I did not expect this sort of language from you of all people! Anyways, as I said to "conscious", it does seem that you are as set in your thoughts and ways as the people you are against and that includes people like me as well. It is a shame but hey life is short and it is one's own choice how they live it. I can only wish you well and pray that you remain happy and healthy.



zinger
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#33

Unread post by zinger » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:05 am

Biradar wrote:
Kaka Akela wrote:Bro conscious:

You have left the fold and you are the one who sounds bitter. My way of fighting the gigantic kothar is NON-Cooperation (gandhi's way) in all unnecessary fund-raisings that only contributes to their Ayyashi. I do pay willingly my Sabil and Wajebaat but for anything else zip, zero, nada. if enough people did that the giant will wake up and mend its ways.
I think you should apply for the Nobel Peace Prize. You are very brave and doing an amazing job. But, I wonder if Gandhi did what he did secretly while still licking the collective British butts?

And which century are you living in? You think by submissively going to their events and just paying sabeel and wajeebat "the giant will wake up and mend its ways". I mean, LOL! You are so naive! Are you living in la-la land?

I believe "conscious" said the right thing. You need to make a sacrifice of a few kaaras and mithaas for your kids. Even if it too late for you, and you enjoy the tamaasha and licking the behind of the local two-cent mullah, please think carefully about the future generations. Do you want them to be like you, spineless cretins, bending and fawning in front of the uneducated mullah? I mean, even if you do not physically bend and fawn, your presence in their jamaat and events is basically you capitulating to them.

Again, don't get me wrong. I don't care if you hide under a rida. No problem. But please don't expect others to thank you for doing nothing.

Birader, your comments are most uncalled for.

And dont get me wrong, but of late, you have begun to sound like a zealot, like the very same ones you keep taunting (adam, progticide, Anajmi even). You used to be a very level-headed person, but you have started to behave like, as Al Z so eloquently puts it, "a foaming-at-the-mouth abde"

i wouldn't have gotten into this conversation but the last line you wrote prompted me to do so.



level_headed
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:02 am

#34

Unread post by level_headed » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:55 am

I could be way off the mark but I have a theory.

Have you guys noticed Biradar and his earlier avatar (I forget his earlier avatar). The other guy was not very religious and his knowledge of arabic and islam was not that great. Now this guy is doing tafseer of ayats. Sounds very suspicious. Can the admin please check the IP's of the logins used by Biradar .
My theory is that this guy is sharing his ID with abde ali /husain/aziz qutbuddin.
He is desperately trying to woo people on the qutbi bohras side. As if he has a stake in making qutbis succesful.
Almost bheekh maangta hai - koyee to aa jaao, mumineen nahi to reformist chalega, dinar nahi to dollar chalega, kameez nahin to kameez ka collar chalege, dede allah ke naam pe dede



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#35

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:38 pm

zinger wrote:

Birader, your comments are most uncalled for.

And dont get me wrong, but of late, you have begun to sound like a zealot, like the very same ones you keep taunting (adam, progticide, Anajmi even). You used to be a very level-headed person, but you have started to behave like, as Al Z so eloquently puts it, "a foaming-at-the-mouth abde"

i wouldn't have gotten into this conversation but the last line you wrote prompted me to do so.
:shock:

My my, it seems all the itty bitty, weak spine zombies are out and about. Seems like a scene from "Day of the Dead". Best if you stay out of a conversation of elders. When you grow up a little, come talk with me. Meanwhile, don't get upset and don't throw a tantrum.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#36

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:06 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: I
I do not know them personally , but based on their postings, folks such as OO53, Br. unhappy_bohra, and other have similar thinking too.

1) I do not condone being counted among one of MS sheep. I regret it. I do not condone paying up quietly. In fact I have cut down my contributions other than sabeel( which is actually a payment for use of facilities) to less than 5% of previous contributions.
2) I am 100% convinced that SKQ and now STF are on haq and that MS/QE/Dr. Moiz etc. lied and mistreated SMB RA in order to plant MS as Dai.
3) I am in misaq of STF and attend Fatemi Dawat events as often as possible.
4) I am working towards a day when my spouse and the love of my life grants me permission to be out in the open with my allegiance. She has some valid reasons for not allowing me to declare it currently. It has mostly to do with the safety and wellbeing of family that lives in Bohra Mohallas.

Given the above, please do not count me among Humanbeing, DCP and kimanumaanu. My involvement with Fatemi Dawat is significant albeit unknown to the MS crowd. Since I know UnhappyBohra and ajamali, I know that they are in similar situations. We are the voice of the many silent who are counted with MS out of fear for the safety and well being of their loved ones but who in-secret are in misaq of STF. Please do not count us among the confused lot of humanbeing, kimanu and DCP who still have questions about the truth!



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#37

Unread post by kimanumanu » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:27 am

We all have one thing in common yet we are divided still. Must be music to Kothar's ears.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#38

Unread post by SBM » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:53 am

kimanumanu wrote:We all have one thing in common yet we are divided still. Must be music to Kothar's ears.
I think it is more like that SMS and STF are saying we got the sheeps by B---- and making them live in fear for the rest of their remaining life



bohra_manus
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

#39

Unread post by bohra_manus » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:30 pm

SBM wrote:
kimanumanu wrote:We all have one thing in common yet we are divided still. Must be music to Kothar's ears.
I think it is more like that SMS and STF are saying we got the sheeps by B---- and making them live in fear for the rest of their remaining life
Bro SBM,
I am a reformist, not in either SMS or STF camp but I don't think STF is holding the sheeps by the B---- as you put it. I think he is the best Dai Bohras have seen after the fearful reign of STS, SMS and now SMS.
He (STF) deserves that much recognition.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#40

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:59 am

kimanumanu wrote:We all have one thing in common yet we are divided still. Must be music to Kothar's ears.
You do realize that this big bully "Kothar" that you keep talking about means less than nothing to us now that we are out of it's clutches....it's irrelevant whether they are pleased or whatever...our quest was to find the truth and side with it and we are achieving that goal.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#41

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:13 am

objectiveobserver53 wrote:In fact I have cut down my contributions other than sabeel( which is actually a payment for use of facilities) to less than 5% of previous contributions.
So you can decide how much you participate out of obligation and utility, while others doing so are cowards !!!
objectiveobserver53 wrote:She has some valid reasons for not allowing me to declare it currently. It has mostly to do with the safety and wellbeing of family that lives in Bohra Mohallas.
Given the above, please do not count me among Humanbeing, DCP and kimanumaanu. My involvement with Fatemi Dawat is significant albeit unknown to the MS crowd. Since I know UnhappyBohra and ajamali, I know that they are in similar situations. We are the voice of the many silent who are counted with MS out of fear for the safety and well being of their loved ones but who in-secret are in misaq of STF. Please do not count us among the confused lot of humanbeing, kimanu and DCP who still have questions about the truth!
Amusing !!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abde followers be it of SMS or SKQ are rigid in their tolerance and acceptance. Either it is SMS or SKQ rest all are idiots … and then they talk about compassion, acceptance etc etc.. Both sides are hammering their truthfulness on bohra followers, typical cultish behavior.

Even though OO53 follows what most of disgruntled members of SMS camp feel and do, yet OO53 puts himself on higher moral ground just because he is member of SKQ/STF cult. So while he pays up whatever deem fit, others doing so are idiots and strayed. While he has to put up with SMS membership due to fear and utility, others doing so are cowards.
Dear OO53, I despise, condemn, criticize, object, dislike SMS actions that are not in good faith, niether bow, bend and crawl at his fancy. My reasons to remain in SMS club is very similar to that of yours and in addition the entertainment factor.

FD must be ultimate solution to sprituality as per your POV, you are convinced about it, good for you to be at mental peace if this brings you that. You have freed yourself from the clutches of SMS and got into clutches of STF/SKQ, you base your spirituality/salvation on someone, you are dependent, you have become just another abde, this time of STF/SKQ, you changed your idol, your primary fears and wants remain the same, access to Jannat through an intercessor, easy way out of your sins, bowing and bending, deedar and kadambosi, burdened with ehsaaan and karam. May be these requirements are central to bohra doctrine and if one wants to remain a bohra one must fall into these practices and beliefs.

Nothing seems wrong with FD, they are so caring, cuddly, concerned, connected and welcoming. Same is the case with SMS club member’s POV. FD and DEH are found on similar principles, practices and beliefs. Enjoy the membership as long as you are enchanted with the new and improved club in town. Others simply chose to continue with their old membership, while some continue to hold both ; -)



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#42

Unread post by I Rizwan » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:57 am

as long as both camp dont give away their luxurious life and daily updown from US and UK, be sure both are chor.

live a simple life specially if you are preaching deen of Muhammed(s) and his wasi Ali (A).



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#43

Unread post by I Rizwan » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:22 pm

No need to become rebel or to fight with your spouse or your parents for these people, they are just interested in their number games, for sure they are not jannat naa zameen or najat kaa karawnaar, they dont even know if they will end up in hell or heaven.

Human being is correct do not mess with your peace of mind for these idiots, keep very low profile in your respective jamaat, do not pay them any thing, neither try and show your walwalo to them ( they dont deserve it)

keep your kids away from this madness, educate them with Quran and stories of prophet(saw) and awliyahs. keep them away from muffy maula frenzy.

do not put any money in any Golak ( awliyah dont need your money).

if possible boycott raudat tahera completely because those who are sleeping in the monument are responsible for the situation of this community.

stay awake and stay calm.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#44

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:12 am

humanbeing wrote:
objectiveobserver53 wrote:In fact I have cut down my contributions other than sabeel( which is actually a payment for use of facilities) to less than 5% of previous contributions.
So you can decide how much you participate out of obligation and utility, while others doing so are cowards !!!
objectiveobserver53 wrote:She has some valid reasons for not allowing me to declare it currently. It has mostly to do with the safety and wellbeing of family that lives in Bohra Mohallas.
Given the above, please do not count me among Humanbeing, DCP and kimanumaanu. My involvement with Fatemi Dawat is significant albeit unknown to the MS crowd. Since I know UnhappyBohra and ajamali, I know that they are in similar situations. We are the voice of the many silent who are counted with MS out of fear for the safety and well being of their loved ones but who in-secret are in misaq of STF. Please do not count us among the confused lot of humanbeing, kimanu and DCP who still have questions about the truth!
Amusing !!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abde followers be it of SMS or SKQ are rigid in their tolerance and acceptance. Either it is SMS or SKQ rest all are idiots … and then they talk about compassion, acceptance etc etc.. Both sides are hammering their truthfulness on bohra followers, typical cultish behavior.

Even though OO53 follows what most of disgruntled members of SMS camp feel and do, yet OO53 puts himself on higher moral ground just because he is member of SKQ/STF cult. So while he pays up whatever deem fit, others doing so are idiots and strayed. While he has to put up with SMS membership due to fear and utility, others doing so are cowards.
Dear OO53, I despise, condemn, criticize, object, dislike SMS actions that are not in good faith, niether bow, bend and crawl at his fancy. My reasons to remain in SMS club is very similar to that of yours and in addition the entertainment factor.

FD must be ultimate solution to sprituality as per your POV, you are convinced about it, good for you to be at mental peace if this brings you that. You have freed yourself from the clutches of SMS and got into clutches of STF/SKQ, you base your spirituality/salvation on someone, you are dependent, you have become just another abde, this time of STF/SKQ, you changed your idol, your primary fears and wants remain the same, access to Jannat through an intercessor, easy way out of your sins, bowing and bending, deedar and kadambosi, burdened with ehsaaan and karam. May be these requirements are central to bohra doctrine and if one wants to remain a bohra one must fall into these practices and beliefs.

Nothing seems wrong with FD, they are so caring, cuddly, concerned, connected and welcoming. Same is the case with SMS club member’s POV. FD and DEH are found on similar principles, practices and beliefs. Enjoy the membership as long as you are enchanted with the new and improved club in town. Others simply chose to continue with their old membership, while some continue to hold both ; -)
My intention in stating my stance is not to condemn those who are with MS by choice. But rather to clarify that I do not wish to be counted among them as I am clear about where haq lies and the necessary conclusion that those who choose the MS side willingly are not clear. I am a believer of the Bohra doctrine and it is important to me that my religious leadership be truthful - at the minimum. I am neither qualified nor interested in standing in judgement of the choices of other mumineen. In that I differ from Biradar.
Nor do I grovel, bend and bow to anyone - as humanbeing imagines that I do. I acknowledge my respect for a person's higher station in ilm in a way that does not demean my own self. All this is possible in Fatemi Dawat. It is not a choice I have made lightly as the price to eventually join FD openly will be high.

Those who are standing in judgement of Fatemi Dawat and casting it in the same light as the MS circus either do not have first-hand experience of FD or have their own agendas for bringing it down.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#45

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:11 pm

A bitter truth..... At the end of the day most people want a Religion of Convenience !!



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#46

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:53 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:A bitter truth..... At the end of the day most people want a Religion of Convenience !!
Very well said. This is exactly the point Reformists have been making for a long time. Most people want a religion of convenience. Where they get to eat their cake and keep it too. Pretend to be lovers of DMMS but not do anything to rock the boat. Be so afraid that they hide in a metaphorical rida. Complain and cry but go for more humiliations and degradations.

The people of Kufa were like this also. At first, they said that they were with Imam Hussain, but then when Yazid turned the screws they abandoned the Imam. Obviously, they also liked their jamaan and amaan, as modern day Bohris do.

Consider the following: many thousands gave allegiance to Imam Hussain at the hands of Muslim bin Aqil. However, when Yazid sent Ubaydullah bin Ziyad (LA) to suppress them, the people of Kufa abandoned Muslim. So much so that Muslim had to take shelter with Hāni bin Urwa. Eventually, Hani and Muslim were both martyred, with no supporters to help them. Such is the behavior of those who love dal chaaval and palidu. All talk and then when push comes to shove, hide with tail between legs.

To those who think that I, or others who ask people to take a stance for what they believe and stop supporting the Kothari Mafia, are fanatics, should answer the question: do you think that day is the same night? Or hell the same as heaven? Just saying "both sides are fanatics" is a cop-out for those who have no courage and want to hide. I have heard so many excuses here that one could write a book. It is okay, though. Micro-intellects will take micro-actions.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#47

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:59 pm

The thing is no matter how much you plead helplessness and family issues and the rest, so long as you do not take a stand not much is going to happen. In that I agree with Biradar, there's been a lot of talk and little action. Of course, leaving the fold is not the option for everyone, but if you have to remain inside then you have to stir things up and orgnaise, organise, organise. One cannot emphasise this enough.

The debate is useful, and it is good to argue one's case eloquently but ultimately the point of debate here is not to win arguments. If all these fine words leads to some concrete action then it would certainly be something.

Much has been talked about reformists, and there are a couple of misconceptions about them floating about. Humanbeing siad:
While reformist movement innocently, naively relied on indian legal system to deliver justice.....
Not true at all. litigation was one of the strategies we employed. Creating public awareness of Bohra issues was/is our major platforms. We held public meetings, conferences, used the media and other fora to highlight our cause. And how was our reliance on litigation innocent and naive? We won many cases against the Kothar, big and small, although Bohras generally never knew about it because even the defeat of Kothar was celebrated as fateh mubin. It is because of our challenge of baraat in court that Kothar relented at one time and withdrew baraat ruling in Udaipur. You won't find any aamil making "official" baraat announcement.

The other misconception is that reformists left the community. Not true. We were 'baraated", kicked out, and in Udaipur it worked in our favour because we ended up controlling the community properties. In effect it was the Kothar which was kicked out and literally left on the street.

Please update your understanding of reform movement. And in any case, the fight against the Kothar must continue on all fronts, from the outside and the inside. There is no need to leave the community if by remaining inside one can organise and challenge the clergy mafia in small ways and big ways. We all have to choose our battles, the end goal is the same.

A note to Biradar: My friend you don't have to be dismissive and contemptuous. You certainly used to handle criticism better before.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#48

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:17 pm

Humsafar wrote:
A note to Biradar: My friend you don't have to be dismissive and contemptuous. You certainly used to handle criticism better before.
I am okay with criticism. In fact, I welcome it. Unfortunately, as I grow older, my ability to suffer fools is decreasing dramatically.



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

#49

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:07 am

Biradar wrote:
ghulam muhammed wrote:A bitter truth..... At the end of the day most people want a Religion of Convenience !!
Very well said. This is exactly the point Reformists have been making for a long time. Most people want a religion of convenience. Where they get to eat their cake and keep it too. Pretend to be lovers of DMMS but not do anything to rock the boat. Be so afraid that they hide in a metaphorical rida. Complain and cry but go for more humiliations and degradations.

The people of Kufa were like this also. At first, they said that they were with Imam Hussain, but then when Yazid turned the screws they abandoned the Imam. Obviously, they also liked their jamaan and amaan, as modern day Bohris do.

Consider the following: many thousands gave allegiance to Imam Hussain at the hands of Muslim bin Aqil. However, when Yazid sent Ubaydullah bin Ziyad (LA) to suppress them, the people of Kufa abandoned Muslim. So much so that Muslim had to take shelter with Hāni bin Urwa. Eventually, Hani and Muslim were both martyred, with no supporters to help them. Such is the behavior of those who love dal chaaval and palidu. All talk and then when push comes to shove, hide with tail between legs.

To those who think that I, or others who ask people to take a stance for what they believe and stop supporting the Kothari Mafia, are fanatics, should answer the question: do you think that day is the same night? Or hell the same as heaven? Just saying "both sides are fanatics" is a cop-out for those who have no courage and want to hide. I have heard so many excuses here that one could write a book. It is okay, though. Micro-intellects will take micro-actions.
I can only speak for myself. I am not calling you a fanatic for asking us to stop supporting the Kothari mafia. My point is the following: You can disagree in a courteous way, or in a nasty/mean way. Just look at your response to Bhai Zinger. [Post #35 above, which I reproduce below. Bold is mine]

My my, it seems all the itty bitty, weak spine zombies are out and about. Seems like a scene from "Day of the Dead". Best if you stay out of a conversation of elders. When you grow up a little, come talk with me. Meanwhile, don't get upset and don't throw a tantrum.


And to Kaka Akela [who has said that he is an elder person in his 80s]

"Again, don't get me wrong. I don't care if you hide under a rida. No problem. But please don't expect others to thank you for doing nothing."

There is a civil way to assertively disagree, and the above is just mean, plain and simple. Any religion, faith teaches us to be respectful to elders. And as for me, since this is an anonymous forum, how do you even know who I am or where my allegiance stands?

Finally, I just want to say one more thing. Since you consider a lot of us so spineless that we are not standing up loud and clear, can I request you to clearly identify yourself? Why are you hiding under the anonymity that this forum affords. Even bhai Zinger (whom you refer to as "weak spine zombie") had the guts to identify himself a while back. So, come on, at least be more strong/have more spine than the "weak spine zombie" and identify yourself. Let us see if you do that.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#50

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:06 am

Humsafar wrote:Not true at all. litigation was one of the strategies we employed. Creating public awareness of Bohra issues was/is our major platforms. We held public meetings, conferences, used the media and other fora to highlight our cause. And how was our reliance on litigation innocent and naive? We won many cases against the Kothar, big and small, although Bohras generally never knew about it because even the defeat of Kothar was celebrated as fateh mubin. It is because of our challenge of baraat in court that Kothar relented at one time and withdrew baraat ruling in Udaipur.You won't find any aamil making "official" baraat announcement.
The other misconception is that reformists left the community. Not true. We were 'baraated", kicked out, and in Udaipur it worked in our favour because we ended up controlling the community properties. In effect it was the Kothar which was kicked out and literally left on the street..
Strategies to go legal route respective to their local jamaat is beneficial. I mentioned that reformist were successful in creating (retaining) their own control and system. The benefits of that legal route was/is limited to local jamaat only and did not dent kothar’s hold over majority communities. Instead Kothar got active, woke up from the slumber and changed the tactics to control rather than reform up to conscience.

Reformist fought with multiple agendas, correct me wherever wrong. Either they wanted to reform kothar itself or wanted to avenge humiliation or both.

Kothar does not abide by legal rules, it has grown popular and bigger than legal sanctions. It is naïve / innocent to fight with kothar in hope that they will straighten up. Is reformist hammering kothar’s DAI to shape up by legal route ?
Rebellion broke out when conflict of interest happened due to political elections. Before that reformist had no issues with kadambosi, deedar, ziyafats, raza madness and other such extortion schemes. Accountability is denied since STS times.

I don’t know how exactly reformist jamaat works now ! do they enforce payments to sustain jamat facilities, is accountability crystal clear ? Is spending done optimally ? I don’t have the right to criticize local level functioning without experiencing it. So with benefit of doubt I assume they are running the show with utmost humility and transparency. But the one who wants to affiliate to bohra philosophy that requires a DAI, how does that bohra find comfort in reformist system or values ?

Where does the buck stops for reformist ? do they agree with kadambosi ? deedar ? Ziyafats ? Claims of Jannah guarantee ? Political involvement ? Resort Dargahs ?

There are variety of bohras with different opinions, priorities, preferences, sensitivities, like and dislikes regarding the policies of kothar, budgeting, fund raising and functioning. How does reformist jamaat reconcile on these topics with kothar. Where is the middle ground and how does reformist jamaat handle these better than kothar.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#51

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:00 pm

humanbeing wrote: Strategies to go legal route respective to their local jamaat is beneficial. I mentioned that reformist were successful in creating (retaining) their own control and system. The benefits of that legal route was/is limited to local jamaat only and did not dent kothar’s hold over majority communities. Instead Kothar got active, woke up from the slumber and changed the tactics to control rather than reform up to conscience.
Litigation was successful at both local level (masjid cases) and at larger level (curbing Kothar from issuing baraat fatwaa officially). Kothar will never on its own "reform" by conscience. For it has none. The real dent to Kothar will never come as long as people like you enable it by being part of it and doing nothing to challenge it.
humanbeing wrote: Reformist fought with multiple agendas, correct me wherever wrong. Either they wanted to reform Kothar itself or wanted to avenge humiliation or both.
The agenda was to help/inspire/educate people to repeat the example of Udaipur so the Kothar is forced to reform. Avenge? This was not a petty fight of egos. Interests of larger community has been our focus,
humanbeing wrote: Kothar does not abide by legal rules, it has grown popular and bigger than legal sanctions. It is naïve / innocent to fight with kothar in hope that they will straighten up. Is reformist hammering kothar’s DAI to shape up by legal route ?
You are infuriatingly repetetvie. I said legal channel was one of many strategies, it was never supposed to be a focus. Litigation helped bring Bohra issues in the public domain, exposed the Kothar and its misdoings. What do you think should be done to "straighten up" Kohtar?
humanbeing wrote: Rebellion broke out when conflict of interest happened due to political elections. Before that reformist had no issues with kadambosi, deedar, ziyafats, raza madness and other such extortion schemes. Accountability is denied since STS times.
So what is your point? You too at one time were a naive abde, I think!
humanbeing wrote: I don’t know how exactly reformist jamaat works now ! do they enforce payments to sustain jamat facilities, is accountability crystal clear ? Is spending done optimally ? I don’t have the right to criticize local level functioning without experiencing it. So with benefit of doubt I assume they are running the show with utmost humility and transparency. But the one who wants to affiliate to bohra philosophy that requires a DAI, how does that bohra find comfort in reformist system or values ?
Our jamats are democratically elected, accountability is transparent. People tend to criticise jamat leaders and officials more than they should. Reformist believe in the Bohra doctrine of which Dai is a pivotal institution. Our belief in Dai remains but we reject his oppressive administration. Bohras who care for dignity and freedom will find immense comfort in our community.
humanbeing wrote: Where does the buck stops for reformist ? do they agree with kadambosi ? deedar ? Ziyafats ? Claims of Jannah guarantee ? Political involvement ? Resort Dargahs ?
We have no problem with dargah ziayrat, it's part of our tradition. We reject all the rest.
humanbeing wrote:
humanbeing wrote: There are variety of bohras with different opinions, priorities, preferences, sensitivities, like and dislikes regarding the policies of kothar, budgeting, fund raising and functioning. How does reformist jamaat reconcile on these topics with kothar. Where is the middle ground and how does reformist jamaat handle these better than kothar.
Reformist agenda is broad based, please read it up elsewhere on this site/forum. You are talking about nitty-gritties which can be tackled on principles of fairness and justice. Every little thing does not have to be negotiated with the Kothar, that's what jamat autonomy is all about.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#52

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:25 am

objectiveobserver53 wrote:I am a believer of the Bohra doctrine and it is important to me that my religious leadership be truthful - at the minimum. .
Was this current religious leadership at FD truthful at the times of SMB in sub-leadership position ? do they condemn atrocities caused by SMB and predecessors !
objectiveobserver53 wrote:Nor do I grovel, bend and bow to anyone - as humanbeing imagines that I do. I acknowledge my respect for a person's higher station in ilm in a way that does not demean my own self. All this is possible in Fatemi Dawat. It is not a choice I have made lightly as the price to eventually join FD openly will be high.
Does FD organize kadambosi, deedar sessions ! do they require mumineen to stand in submission with heads lowered, gaze down, namastey style? Is it a common etiquette to kiss knees of royalties and raza-na-saheb amils ?

Does FD Misaaq have terms like DAI is the sole owner of jaan-maal of mumineen, loot the belongings of apostates, consider their kids as orphans and wives as divorced tearing apart families.

It does not matter whether you follow these generally expected etiquettes and rituals or not, as similarly many in SMS camp do not grovel bend and bow but the existence of these oppressing and humiliating practices are sign of regression and cultish dominance in the mindset of leaders.
objectiveobserver53 wrote:Those who are standing in judgement of Fatemi Dawat and casting it in the same light as the MS circus either do not have first-hand experience of FD or have their own agendas for bringing it down
I have no benefit or loss in judging FD, they are an offshoot from the same root and thinking. They are raised with entitled mentality. They have to be sweet, welcoming and attractive to build up numbers and prove their claim. Past lack of action can be forgotten, but is the current setup fundamentally any different.

Is FD ready to let go kadambosi, deedar and nonsensical self glorifiying jazz. Are they ready to welcome people with diverse sensitivities. Example : Is white SKT and Rida also a strict norm in gatherings ?, is everything dependent on raza ?

Yes FD is much better then DEH now, new and improved, pandering to people’s likes and comforts. All forthcoming to provide accounts, transparency, access and time. Enjoy it till it lasts and true blessing if it does forever.

I don’t mind either of the camps as it does not matter. Life is going on, my spirituality, salvation and piety remains between me and allah. Not miserably dependent to find a rehbar who wants me to kiss his feet. I truly respect and bow to person of knowledge. And it is easy common sense to call out bullshit from knowledge.



Moiz_Dhaanu
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:57 pm

#53

Unread post by Moiz_Dhaanu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:09 am

@human being
I would like to ask u a question about something I have heard,many times in Waaz.

Once Rasullulah (sw) turned facing in the direction of India and raised his hands and prayed and did dua for some people ..his companions (ashaabs) who were present with him asked rasullulah (sw) who did he pray for..he replied back that in the coming ages there will be his dais who will not have seen him nor heard him but still will give their everything for the sake of spreading his deen..the ashaabs asked will they be like us ?..Rasullulah(sw) said you are my 'ashaabs' they would be like my brothers.

I am not sure if you believe in this riwayat...if you do then why do you have so much anger for a Dai?

If you do not believe in this riwayat...then plz ignore my post/question

FYI ..I am an FD follower



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#54

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:17 am

Humsafar wrote:Litigation was successful at both local level (masjid cases) and at larger level (curbing Kothar from issuing baraat fatwaa officially). Kothar will never on its own "reform" by conscience. For it has none. The real dent to Kothar will never come as long as people like you enable it by being part of it and doing nothing to challenge it.
You are infuriatingly repetetvie. I said legal channel was one of many strategies, it was never supposed to be a focus. Litigation helped bring Bohra issues in the public domain, exposed the Kothar and its misdoings. What do you think should be done to "straighten up" Kohtar?
It is cute to think thank legal deterrence matters to kothar. Baraat is still very much in practice. Abdes are threatened, punished and penalized at whims of amils for baraat. It happens at social, business levels. Abdes are left running to make amends.

Why do you think there are hordes of bohras putting up with SMS camp, many states fear, and why is that fear ? it is fear of baraat. How did reformist legal victory work on that level. Surely it did wonders at Udaipur and other local jamats with collective majority.

In simple words, reformist saved those who choose to be saved and were physically present in concentrated locations.

Legal route in India is drain of money and energy.. My sincere apology for Infuriatingly repetitive. But this has been my experience and observation. I don’t discredit this route completely, but it is not a good idea to spend fortune on this channel. Anyhow, not my authority to advise reformist.
Humsafar wrote: The real dent to Kothar will never come as long as people like you enable it by being part of it and doing nothing to challenge it.
This is tiresome opinion thrown around all the time. People like me what ?? … people like me are living our lives in peace, saving those who wish to be saved, Standing up for weak who is calling out for help, Snubbing amils, sheikhs, mullahs who talk trash, not bowing, not bending, no feet kissing, no knee kissing, no howling maula-maula, no falling over one another for deedar, not lining up at railways station, runways, bus stops, not paying ziyafats, not buying titles, not paying donation for variety of schemes (subject to one’s choice), not doing sajda to screens, not doing maatam at inaugrations, bday parties, marriages, engagements, not participating in maatam orchestra.

People like me are paying up sabeel, wajebaat and any donations or charges that one feel is justified for which services are used such as dargah resorts, town halls for occasions, umra or hajj organization, jamans etc. These are services that require payment be it FD, DEH, RJ, Alawi, Ata-e-maliki or any other community one wishes to be part of.

What shall be challenged ! administratively, religiously, socially ?? where does buck stops !
I am not forced to participate in feet kissing, knee kissing, howling, maatam, ziyafat or buy titles. As long as one wishes to use the services they are asked to pay up certain amount as required. There are negotiations everywhere.

For my spiritual salvation, I’d rather chart out my own journey and have faith in Allah to guide me. I can only die trying rather dying cock sure of landing in heaven kinda arrogance.

With these justifications, I can tolerate or heck enjoy circus drama by SMS camp. it is revelation to see abdes, it is a learning of its own kind in human stupidity and on a liberal note; if an abde takes pride, comfort, relief in feet kissing, knee kissing, bow and bending in submission. Who are others to hammer them & shouting from rooftops of this as oppression. Take out morchas, call for revolution, disobedience, abandon affiliation.

On a positive / advantageous note, SMS hold comfortable infrastructure to use. SMS staff behaves politely and those who don’t are ignored.
Humsafar wrote:Our jamats are democratically elected, accountability is transparent. People tend to criticise jamat leaders and officials more than they should..
People criticizes DEH jamaats too, some are genuine causes and some are just hot air or tantrums.
Humsafar wrote: Reformist believe in the Bohra doctrine of which Dai is a pivotal institution. Our belief in Dai remains but we reject his oppressive administration. Bohras who care for dignity and freedom will find immense comfort in our community.
Spiritually speaking, does reformist bohra look up in reverence to STS, SMB, SMS (or) SKQ or has reformist jamaat put a stop at previous duaat to fill the pivotal position of DAI ?



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
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#55

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:37 pm

Oh my, you don't give up, do you? Okay, if you insist the legal route was a waste of money and time, then so be it. Your opinion does not count. Come in the trenches and fight with us then we might lend your ears to you.

Yes, I know it is tiresome to be told "people like you...", it is getting damn tiring for us also to keep saying it. Your behaviour maybe the most righteous and upstanding, but acting alone as a maverick doesn't do jack shit to advance the cause of change. That is, if it is change that you are after. If you are happy with your situation and your inflated sense of rebellion - as you seem to be from your "justifications" - then good for you. Enjoy the tamasha and take comfort in the fact that you are enabling it by being part of it. And you are part of it, whether you accept it or not.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#56

Unread post by SBM » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:02 am

It is interesting to note that people who are against SMS and Kothar but justify paying minimum wajebaats and Saabil because they use the facility or do not want to ROCK THE BOAT for the loved ones or families.
I wonder if same people would justify if their loved ones were against the teaching of Islam but they were ardent supporter of Islam and just to keep peace and happiness, will tolerate Anti Muslim views of their loved ones
In other words if you are a silent spectator to a crime, you are still considered as CO-CONSPIRATOR in the crime and there is no justifying to be a silent spectator.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#57

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:24 am

Moiz_Dhaanu wrote:Once Rasullulah (sw) turned facing in the direction of India and raised his hands and prayed and did dua for some people ..his companions (ashaabs) who were present with him asked rasullulah (sw) who did he pray for..he replied back that in the coming ages there will be his dais who will not have seen him nor heard him but still will give their everything for the sake of spreading his deen..the ashaabs asked will they be like us ?..Rasullulah(sw) said you are my 'ashaabs' they would be like my brothers.
Believing in something good should not be so difficult when one can understand the essence and its benefits with god given intellect. Focus on the highlighted part, think of the duaats that fall into that category and you can decide easily who did prophet pray for !

Can you give reference of this hadith. Which source ?

In any case, why bother over such upmanship, favoritism. Good is good, whether it comes from friends, brothers, relatives, strangers or enemies. What pleasure does one get in gloating over who was close and distant from prophet. Refer to what good is been said and how does that make your life or this world a wonderful place to live.

To make it more simple, prophet followed life of austerity, disliked showmanship. Prophet encouraged to enjoy allah’s bounty with caution not to indulge in israaf, prophet asked people to be kind and comforting to relatives, friends and people in general. Stand up for weak etc.

Was prophet referring to duaats (brothers) who hunt animals for pleasure, sit like pheron on a higher seat while his pyara farzando are shoved, pushed, crawled to kiss his feet, charge millions for honoring titles, turn masjids into screening centres

Or

Was prophet referring to duats (brothers) who sit quietly witnessing corruption take deep roots, allow others to misguide blind and trusting followers, do not confront people in power of mistreating people and when questioned throw authority of hikmat, reasoning of taqiyet and fear of safety !

According to prophet’s sayings, you could be that brother for whom prophet prayed if you fulfill those requirements. Don’t find straws to create an idol.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#58

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:38 am

SBM wrote:I wonder if same people would justify if their loved ones were against the teaching of Islam but they were ardent supporter of Islam and just to keep peace and happiness, will tolerate Anti Muslim views of their loved ones.
There can be family and friend turning atheist or embrace other faiths due to islamophobia or whatever other reason. Why should this matter. If your faith is strong why get rattled about what views other keep.
SBM wrote:In other words if you are a silent spectator to a crime, you are still considered as CO-CONSPIRATOR in the crime and there is no justifying to be a silent spectator.
So, you must have stopped paying taxes to US government, they are causing world wide havoc and wars destroying innocent families moreover innocent muslim families.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#59

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:53 am

Humsafar wrote: Of course, leaving the fold is not the option for everyone, but if you have to remain inside then you have to stir things up and orgnaise, organise, organise. One cannot emphasise this enough.
Humsafar wrote: but acting alone as a maverick doesn't do jack shit to advance the cause of change. That is, if it is change that you are after. If you are happy with your situation and your inflated sense of rebellion - as you seem to be from your "justifications" - then good for you. Enjoy the tamasha and take comfort in the fact that you are enabling it by being part of it. And you are part of it, whether you accept it or not.

Make up your mind, if you are in favor of people being in the system or they MUST get out of the system. Chat-bhi-meri-pat-bhi-meri. Pal-mein-masha-pal-mein-tola !!

Ohh so much “support” and “appreciation” for applying any possible strategies to confront, restrict kothar’s oppression. Have been sitting out so long, you guys don’t have much idea how kothar operates and how general bohra and abdes respond.

Stick with your rigidity and limited strategy approach and when people come with new ideas shoot them down with your name callings in arrogance that what you guys did 20-30-40 years ago is still viable to make kothar “straighten up” . Blame others for not adapting !



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
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#60

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:37 pm

Moiz_Dhaanu wrote:in the coming ages there will be his dais who will not have seen him nor heard him but still will give their everything for the sake of spreading his deen..the ashaabs asked will they be like us ?..Rasullulah(sw) said you are my 'ashaabs' they would be like my brothers.
'Dai' means a person who gives Dawah. Did Prophet (s.a.w.) refer to the BOHRA Dai ? It doesn't require rocket science to figure out !