The barbaric form of iddah

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Michigan
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:42 am

The barbaric form of iddah

#1

Unread post by Michigan » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:01 pm

Iddah as prescribed in scripture is the duration in which the widow cannot marry another man and another man is forbidden from proposing marriage to the widow. If the prescription is so simple, why is the bohra form of this practice so cruel and barbaric towards the widow.
As if the loss of her husband wasn't enough trauma, now she has to wear white, stay indoors 24/7, be dependent on someone else and maintain utmost caution all the time. One can only imagine the mental abuse and scar this will cause on the woman.
As a son and a husband, I really wish this issue is taken up by social media and reform groups like sahiyo with the same grit as FGM is. Please educate me on the origins of the practice that bohras follow. This practice definitely does not have place in a civilized society



zinger
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#2

Unread post by zinger » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:27 pm

Michigan wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:01 pm
Iddah as prescribed in scripture is the duration in which the widow cannot marry another man and another man is forbidden from proposing marriage to the widow. If the prescription is so simple, why is the bohra form of this practice so cruel and barbaric towards the widow.
As if the loss of her husband wasn't enough trauma, now she has to wear white, stay indoors 24/7, be dependent on someone else and maintain utmost caution all the time. One can only imagine the mental abuse and scar this will cause on the woman.
As a son and a husband, I really wish this issue is taken up by social media and reform groups like sahiyo with the same grit as FGM is. Please educate me on the origins of the practice that bohras follow. This practice definitely does not have place in a civilized society
if its a movement that you want to start, count me in. i couldnt stop my mum but i have forbidden my wife from sitting in iddat for me



ajamali
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

#3

Unread post by ajamali » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:06 am

One way to get MS to ban the practice is to have STF tell newspapers that FD supports it....Just a thought....



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#4

Unread post by kimanumanu » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:35 am

This is one of my bug-bears too. It really gets me when someone says the widow cannot even speak on the phone or look at a picture of a male!!!! I mean, how is looking at a man's picture got anything to do with the iddat? Am I missing something in our glorious taawil?



zinger
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#5

Unread post by zinger » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:26 am

kimanumanu wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:35 am
This is one of my bug-bears too. It really gets me when someone says the widow cannot even speak on the phone or look at a picture of a male!!!! I mean, how is looking at a man's picture got anything to do with the iddat? Am I missing something in our glorious taawil?
looking at pics used to be done years ago, but thankfully, it has changed now. most women watch TV and read newspapers (something that i remember my Dadi and Nani did not do), not that this change is any small compensation. women can pick up the phone but they may not talk. the person at the other end (assuming that they know she is in iddat) can just relay the message and hang up, without expecting an answer, or can sms or whatsapp too.

things have thankfully become less rigid with passing times though



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#6

Unread post by kimanumanu » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:36 am

No zinger bhai - it totally varies and depends on the families. Apparently the official line, if one asks, is still quite rigid. No whatsapp, no mobiles, no TV, no pictures is the official line I have heard. Yes people do their own interpretation like everything else.



LFT
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:55 am

#7

Unread post by LFT » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:02 am

This is a pet peeve for me too. The Quran does specify 4 months and 10 days of mourning specific to women only. Can anyone throw light on other sources which would explain what this mourning is. I understand the logic of not getting married in that time frame but what about staying inside the house.



Biradar
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#8

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:58 am

LFT wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:02 am
This is a pet peeve for me too. The Quran does specify 4 months and 10 days of mourning specific to women only. Can anyone throw light on other sources which would explain what this mourning is. I understand the logic of not getting married in that time frame but what about staying inside the house.
This topic of Iddat has been discussed very extensively here. Just search and you will find extensive discussions. In essence, the original purpose of iddat was to establish pregnancy. That is, if a woman was pregnant just at the time of her husband's death and married immediately, the paternity of the child would not be clear. Hence the prescribed waiting period.

Now, of course, pregnancy can be determined in a matter of minutes and hence there is no need for iddat. It has become an empty ritual which women are supposed to go through. I am sure the mad fanatics will produce a lot of "reasons" why women should sit in iddat, but they don't hold any water.

As usual, a simple prescription in the Qu'ran has morphed into a grotesque torture for women. It is a sign of the highly patriarchal Islamic laws. It would be an interesting topic of research why Ismaili law has such an extreme form of iddat. In the case of FGM, the Ismaili laws can be traced to North African influences on the legal thinking of S. Qadi al-Nu'man. It is likely that FGM was practiced widely in North Africa when the Fatimid Imams conquered Egypt and hence it influenced the Ismaili law which was codified then.

Incidentally: I believe STF has agreed to look into this matter. I think it would be good if Fatemi Dawaat were to study this issue and essentially get rid or at least simplify this barbaric ritual of iddat.



Michigan
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:42 am

#9

Unread post by Michigan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:43 am

Can somebody please tell me if other muslim communities also practice iddat to the extent we do? If yes, I do not believe how is it still a commonplace thing. How are we justifying ourselves in view of accusations of being from the middle ages and having no place in modern society? Are we slowly turning into apologists just to keep some archaic traditions going and giving innovative explanations for them? If we are to stand by traditions that the mainstream social structure doesnt approve of, why stand by few, why not all? How does that then make us any different from salafists/wahabbis? Isnt it the imam's/dai's job to interpret the scripture according to the times?

Seems like between all your bickering and whining, you forgot to ask the important questions. Reading some of the older posts makes me think this forum has become a graveyard for trolls.



Biradar
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#10

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:32 am

Michigan wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:43 am

Seems like between all your bickering and whining, you forgot to ask the important questions. Reading some of the older posts makes me think this forum has become a graveyard for trolls.
Your arrogance and hubris is astounding. Instead of complaining and asking others to answer your questions, why don't you do the research and tell us the answers you find? This is really the problem with Bohras in general. Always wanting others to do something, while they sit on their own hands repeating "Suu karisoo, Suu karisoo". Perhaps you are not smart enough to find things yourself and hence always need someone else to do the thinking for you. Existing evidence based on your posting history points in this direction.

As to the role of Imam and da'i in interpreting scriptures. Yes, they do it and have done it all the time. The issue here is that nothing happens overnight, or even in the period of years. These are complex topics which have centuries of history behind them. Things can't be changed willy-nilly without much study and research. There is a clear waiting period mentioned in the Qu'ran. Significant research is needed to understand the motivations of the existing law and if changes are warranted and how to do them in the framework of the Qur'an and the Hadith literature. This takes time. As happened with FGM, at least Fatemi Dawaat is bound to ease the burden of idaat at some point. Won't happen soon, but it will happen. Meanwhile, you have a choice and if you feel that the idaat is not proper do not do it. Allah has given you a brain, however defective. Learn to use it. That is all.

Again: all these topics have been discussed at length. Just please read and stop whining.



Michigan
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:42 am

#11

Unread post by Michigan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:26 pm

I apologize if I came across as arrogant and disrespectful. My retort wasn't pertaining to this post but to the general direction in which most posts on this forum go. My reason for asking questions right away wasn't my inability to conduct research or laziness either, but to get feedback from folks who are communicating on this post and their viewpoint on it.
As to change, does the society drive study and research that the religious authority does based on current hot button issues? I'm assuming that is how FD was prompted to look into the matter and issue statements in the case of FGM. If that is true, why shouldn't we make the misogynistic version of iddat a hot button issue as well? I dont think it took years of study for FD to release statements but right when the crescendo was at its highest.
Please understand that forums die a natural death when newer members are discouraged from asking questions and given "the search button exists" answer. Thank you for sagely advice.



SBM
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#12

Unread post by SBM » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:55 pm

Please understand that forums die a natural death when newer members are discouraged from asking questions and given "the search button exists" answer. Thank you for sagely advice
.
No Forums die a natural death when newer members do not take time to read posts which may have posted by members who are no longer alive. There are many scholarly views by people like Dr Asgharali Engineer and then there is Zahir-Batin by Taizoon Shakir, both of them are no longer on this forum but their memories are with us under SEARCH BUTTON
There is a reason why this forum has SEARCH BUTTON.



Biradar
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#13

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:34 pm

Michigan wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:26 pm
I apologize if I came across as arrogant and disrespectful. My retort wasn't pertaining to this post but to the general direction in which most posts on this forum go. My reason for asking questions right away wasn't my inability to conduct research or laziness either, but to get feedback from folks who are communicating on this post and their viewpoint on it.
As to change, does the society drive study and research that the religious authority does based on current hot button issues? I'm assuming that is how FD was prompted to look into the matter and issue statements in the case of FGM. If that is true, why shouldn't we make the misogynistic version of iddat a hot button issue as well? I dont think it took years of study for FD to release statements but right when the crescendo was at its highest.
The issue is the following: many topics have been discussed to death. It is ok to ask questions but it also behoves one to look around a little to see what has been said before. If there are new ideas we can think through them. But honestly, it is good to not start from scratch every time. Also, as SBM has said, important things have been said by people who have passed away, or no longer participate. Hence, first let's get a good picture and then discuss further. There is no harm in discussing a topic with a fresh mind, but the way you put your post it seemed no one before you had thought about this at all! A simple search would reveal otherwise.

To the specific topic of idaat: the real problem is not with the priests, it is with people's attitudes. If you simply say I won't do it, that will be it. Ditto for FGM. Yes, FGM is a horrible thing, but why would a mother subject her daughter to it? All one has to do is say "NO". The problem with Bohras is they rely too much on the mullahs. We all have the ability and right to make choices for ourselves and our families. A little courage is needed. Sadly, courage and bohras can't be used in the same sentence, the Mafia clergy having reduced the average bohri to a spineless groveling abde.

My suggestion is to study matters and decide for ourselves. Don't rely too much on mullahs. They operate on their own schedules and on their own whims and fancies. Meanwhile, we can use our own intellects to determine what path we wish to take.



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

#14

Unread post by alam » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:20 pm

Newbies especially Michigan

Search of "iddah" resulted 64 occurrences
/search.php?keywords=Iddah&terms=all&aut ... mit=Search

Search of "iddah" resulted in 400+ occurrences

search.php?keywords=Iddat+&terms=all&au ... mit=Search



Biradar
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#15

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:20 pm

It is rather amusing that in 2011 the very first comment that SBM made was:
SBM wrote: This topic has been discussed in length on this forum, Please do a search under Iddat and you will get to thread.
That thread goes on for 8 pages. Then we had more people on this forum, with radically different views. There is even a thread from 2010, started by SBM! In it, a key contributor at that time (but sadly absconding now) said:
porus wrote:For my views on iddat and its basis in the Quran, click on 'Advanced Search' at the top right of this page. Insert keyword iddat and author porus and click search.

You will get the snippets of my posts which you can expand to read.
So even in 2010 people were telling each other to just "search"!

I have to say, we had a lot of fun on this board then. Somehow, with all the old-timers gone things are boring, repetitive and not interesting. Certainly, very few have IQ greater than that of a parsnip. The twilight of this board is sad to see.