Misaq the practise of oath taking in Dawoodi Bohra

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Ozdundee
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Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Misaq the practise of oath taking in Dawoodi Bohra

#1

Unread post by Ozdundee » Fri May 19, 2017 7:15 pm

I have started this discussion to get views for the need and legality of misaq in Dawoodi Bohra as viewed by PDB , reformists, Fatemi Dawaat followers or Mufaddal followers.

Misaq neccasity to be taken at age of 13 _ 14 when children girls and boys when in school, are unable to determine fully if they wish to take the oath, why in 2017 this ritual remains when the oath interpreation is extreme loyalty with damnation a penalty.

Can the first misaq be delayed or be made optional after 18 yrs when laws permit indvidual rights for driving, voting and marraige.

Discuss need for institutional consequemces of not taking the misaq, barring Bohra children from praying jamaat prayers. Making it a obligation under pressure to avoid social discrimination there by interfereing with free will of a human being.

While similar age group children in non Bohra , Muslim, Shia or Sunni communities can pray with adults without need for undertaking misaq or bayaat.

The discussion also need to address how this practise of misaq complies with legal freedoms enshrined under local laws of the land and acts pertaining to rights of children and parental obligations . Discuss reforms and how society and laws can influence the need to review this practise.

Good luck and look forward to a robust intellectual debate.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#2

Unread post by SBM » Fri May 19, 2017 9:32 pm

Misaq is a Slavery Oath. There is no compulsion in Islam and Bohraism is NOT Islam..



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#3

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Fri May 19, 2017 11:28 pm

There are some assumptions here that are not necessarily true. A child need not take misaq UNLESS he is capable of making an informed choice. In fact it is a pre-condition for misaaq. There is no prescribed age. Puberty is more a social norm than doctrinal mandate. I have spent almost my entire life in misaq of SMB and quite honestly never felt enslaved. When I was briefly in misaq of MS I felt suffocated and had a weird sense of dislocation into some bizzarro world but still no sense of enslavement. However, thinking back to the oath, i don't believe there are any clauses of enslavement. Am I missing something? There are oaths for behaving a certain way and for not questioning the dai once you have accepted his authority but these are not enforceable. You have full choice in accepting his authority in matters of religion but once you accept it, you may not question it. That is my understanding. You are also free to leave the misaq if things become disagreeable. No one will hold a gun to your head.

I think that one's enslavement is not a result of the misaq per se but rather is a direct consequence of one's reliance on the bohra way of life and your need to be accepted in bohra society. Because then, if the "Dai" proves to be fake and unworthy, you have a hard time walking away even though emotionally you are not in misaq anymore...



Bohra spring
Posts: 1242
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

#4

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat May 20, 2017 12:12 am

Dr Oz i can only guess another reform in the making when you take things seriously. Lets go for it.

My comment.
Why is everything in Bohra eg scrap genitals, misaq , safai, dont attend others centre dont let others in our centres...no free will to decide. Enslavement to keep people compliant.

If one does not have misaq will the person be denied access to community association.

Will i who have revoked my misaq be able to publicly say so and still attend Masjid

I noticed FD also have misaq requirements how strict are they in accepting non misaq person



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#5

Unread post by SBM » Sat May 20, 2017 6:44 am

i don't believe there are any clauses of enslavement
May be I am ignorant but to say that Dai is Maalik of Jaan aney Maal, and nothing can be done without his Raza even sending email to Jamaat members is the sign of enslavement.
Unfortunately just like an Alcoholic who always denies that he is suffering from addiction, Abdes/Amtes are also in denial of their slavery.
Simple question: Why do I need a Misaq and what has Dai done to invite people to the Dawat? Is not it is Dai's responsibility to invite people to Dawat and ask why people are leaving Dawat?
And one more thing, please donot bring the discussion that even Prophet asked for Misaq (Baet) as he never stopped people attending the events or order BARAAT on people who did not take Misaq.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#6

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat May 20, 2017 7:11 am

Repeated Deleted
Last edited by humanbeing on Sat May 20, 2017 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#7

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat May 20, 2017 7:11 am

Ozdundee wrote:Can the first misaq be delayed or be made optional after 18 yrs when laws permit indvidual rights for driving, voting and marraige.
A sensible adult would not agree to misaaq terms and conditions. It sounds ridiculous to agree to terms like; loot all the properties of an apostate (for bohras it is one who does not acknowledge DAI), children become bastards, etc. also the way they sing through misaaq it sounds more like recitals with lot of god’s reference to make it sound legit and divine. Morever. Who cares about the misaaq terms … it is just yet another occasion for jaman … mullahs and mamlouks both know it. Most obedient sheikhs to a commoner everyone is breaking some clause of misaaq one day or another .. as long as monies are flowing every one is in green. Dawat is in danger when money flow reduces.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#8

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat May 20, 2017 7:12 am

Repeated Deleted
Last edited by humanbeing on Sat May 20, 2017 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#9

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat May 20, 2017 7:12 am

Repeated Deleted



Shk Mohammed Yamani
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 1:13 pm

#10

Unread post by Shk Mohammed Yamani » Sat May 20, 2017 6:46 pm

Once you give Misaq, you are a full Sabeel payer, so by becoming an adult at a tender age of 13, Kothar gets a full paying Sabeel member in its book, in the West, abdes and amtes are charged sabeel per person and not per family so on average, each family of 6 (MBBS.. MA BAAP BACCHE SAATH) pays out 2000 TO 3000 Dollars per annum to Muffys Mafia.
Misaq = mucho dinero to Muffy Muffin



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#11

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:40 pm

Shk Mohammed Yamani wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 6:46 pm
Once you give Misaq, you are a full Sabeel payer, so by becoming an adult at a tender age of 13, Kothar gets a full paying Sabeel member in its book, in the West, abdes and amtes are charged sabeel per person and not per family so on average, each family of 6 (MBBS.. MA BAAP BACCHE SAATH) pays out 2000 TO 3000 Dollars per annum to Muffys Mafia.
Misaq = mucho dinero to Muffy Muffin
In some jamaats, I have known a family of 4 to pay well upwards of 5k in sabeel... on the high end, you are off by more than 50%



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#12

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:47 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 11:40 pm
Shk Mohammed Yamani wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 6:46 pm
Once you give Misaq, you are a full Sabeel payer, so by becoming an adult at a tender age of 13, Kothar gets a full paying Sabeel member in its book, in the West, abdes and amtes are charged sabeel per person and not per family so on average, each family of 6 (MBBS.. MA BAAP BACCHE SAATH) pays out 2000 TO 3000 Dollars per annum to Muffys Mafia.
Misaq = mucho dinero to Muffy Muffin
In some jamaats, I have known a family of 4 to pay well upwards of 5k in sabeel... on the high end, you are off by more than 100%. Families easily pay twice what you have stated in many jamaats on the East and West Coast of US



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#13

Unread post by I Rizwan » Sun May 21, 2017 2:42 am

Shk Mohammed Yamani wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 6:46 pm
Once you give Misaq, you are a full Sabeel payer, so by becoming an adult at a tender age of 13, Kothar gets a full paying Sabeel member in its book, in the West, abdes and amtes are charged sabeel per person and not per family so on average, each family of 6 (MBBS.. MA BAAP BACCHE SAATH) pays out 2000 TO 3000 Dollars per annum to Muffys Mafia.
Misaq = mucho dinero to Muffy Muffin
I dont understand why do you have to lie to put your point? sabeel is not counted on head but it is counted on household, so I can have 10 children but I will be paying sabeel as one household and not per the children I am having, this is standard dawoodi bohra procedure all around the world.


and BTW you are yet to apologize for blaming one innocent woman for stealing from gollak while she was just taking chadawo from small dabba. be human first before claiming to be a torch bearer of a movement.



clippedwings
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:33 am

#14

Unread post by clippedwings » Sun May 21, 2017 4:24 am

I Rizwan wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 2:42 am
Shk Mohammed Yamani wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 6:46 pm
Once you give Misaq, you are a full Sabeel payer, so by becoming an adult at a tender age of 13, Kothar gets a full paying Sabeel member in its book, in the West, abdes and amtes are charged sabeel per person and not per family so on average, each family of 6 (MBBS.. MA BAAP BACCHE SAATH) pays out 2000 TO 3000 Dollars per annum to Muffys Mafia.
Misaq = mucho dinero to Muffy Muffin
I dont understand why do you have to lie to put your point? sabeel is not counted on head but it is counted on household, so I can have 10 children but I will be paying sabeel as one household and not per the children I am having, this is standard dawoodi bohra procedure all around the world.


and BTW you are yet to apologize for blaming one innocent woman for stealing from gollak while she was just taking chadawo from small dabba. be human first before claiming to be a torch bearer of a movement.

Not all jamaat charge per family. My jamaat charges sabeel by per misaqi head. I am sure of this.



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#15

Unread post by I Rizwan » Sun May 21, 2017 7:49 am

clippedwings wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 4:24 am
I Rizwan wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 2:42 am


I dont understand why do you have to lie to put your point? sabeel is not counted on head but it is counted on household, so I can have 10 children but I will be paying sabeel as one household and not per the children I am having, this is standard dawoodi bohra procedure all around the world.


and BTW you are yet to apologize for blaming one innocent woman for stealing from gollak while she was just taking chadawo from small dabba. be human first before claiming to be a torch bearer of a movement.

Not all jamaat charge per family. My jamaat charges sabeel by per misaqi head. I am sure of this.
dont pay it then as simple as that.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#16

Unread post by SBM » Sun May 21, 2017 8:37 am

Breaking News
We have a Donald Trump in the form of I Rizwan on this forum who changes his story by day and will never acknowledge his mistakes either
e.g. Sabeel per head or per family...and btw why would you argue, how Sabeel is charged if you left the fold....



Shk Mohammed Yamani
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 1:13 pm

#17

Unread post by Shk Mohammed Yamani » Sun May 21, 2017 10:56 am

Giving I Rizwan Name of the most powerful man on earth, Donald Trump is an insult to the man, calling him a TROLL a Paki Troll would most probably suite his image. does he even know the meaning of Sabeel? I doubt it but as always, likes to poke his neck where the sun don't shine.
Go on choo, go hide under your big mommas gaagra, it's where your type of Udaipuri Pro FGM munaafekin belongs,



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#18

Unread post by I Rizwan » Mon May 22, 2017 12:50 am

Your language shows neither you are sheikh nor name Muhammad suits you.

I still insists that you apologise for blaming innocent woman for theft which she never did.

Show some shame for atleast once in a life.

As far as sabeel in concern most places are charged per household must be some idiots who are paying per members.



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#19

Unread post by I Rizwan » Mon May 22, 2017 1:11 am

I have never mentioned that I have left fold neither I have mentioned any thing against bohra theology, I am just against extravagant and ayyash life of leader.

I am very much sabeel payer and not just that I sponsor 10 days of dabba to all needy in my place every month. Alhumdolillah because it helps them. I have presence in 8 different countries and attached receipt is from my home town in India. I pay sabeel every where because this money is used for maintenance of masjid and madrassa.

this is my sabeel reciept. and it clearly stats "ghar ni sabeel" which means sabeel per house hold and not per person like some idiots are shouting here.

Mr yamani, better you applogize for blaming an innocent woman for the theft which she never did.
Attachments
2017-05-22_10-37.jpg



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#20

Unread post by I Rizwan » Mon May 22, 2017 2:18 am

jungle rule is still not dead, world respects powerful and strong.

if you show your self weak and vulnerable every one will try and exploit you, from governments employee to religious leaders every one just bow downs to powerful and strong.



if you see some thing wrong, just stand for it and every thing else will get in place.



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

#21

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Mon May 22, 2017 4:03 am

Not every household pays the same sabeel amount in a jamaat. We have been told for years now that "moula"(meaning Mumbai, badri mahal, I'm guessing) decides what sabeel each household pays. In our jamaat there can be a 2-3 fold difference in the amount one family pays vs the other. It depends on the number of family members and your perceived financial status.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#22

Unread post by SBM » Mon May 22, 2017 7:37 am

Hey IR
I can also post someone else's Sabeel receipt by redacting the names and places. How can one know it is your Sabeel.
If you pay Sabeel in 8 different countries, why not put the pictures of those 8 countries. You can show the first name and redact the last names to prove your that it is you
And BTW you did not show the amount of Sabeel paid. Usually receipts are always issued under the head of household and charged per person.
How about posting the paper of Wajebaat form or are they under AUDIT as well....(mr trump)



bohra_manus
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

#23

Unread post by bohra_manus » Mon May 22, 2017 9:56 am

I Rizwan wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 1:11 am
I have never mentioned that I have left fold neither I have mentioned any thing against bohra theology, I am just against extravagant and ayyash life of leader.

I am very much sabeel payer and not just that I sponsor 10 days of dabba to all needy in my place every month. Alhumdolillah because it helps them. I have presence in 8 different countries and attached receipt is from my home town in India. I pay sabeel every where because this money is used for maintenance of masjid and madrassa.

this is my sabeel reciept. and it clearly stats "ghar ni sabeel" which means sabeel per house hold and not per person like some idiots are shouting here.

Mr yamani, better you applogize for blaming an innocent woman for the theft which she never did.
Br Rizwan,
Why is it difficult for you to accept that jamaats outside India may be working on a different model than India?
My relatives in UK are charged per head sabil, so are many in the USA and Canada (I was one of such payee in past, no longer pay them).
So please accept that there is no universal formula when it comes to Sabeel dues.



think
Posts: 1766
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

#24

Unread post by think » Mon May 22, 2017 11:06 am

sabeel is used for the expenses of niaz, electricity bills etc for the markaz but the mulla has his dirty hands in it. Depending upon the ghettas of the jamaat , if the mulla is crafty and can exploit the jamaat committee to demand luxury living, i.e. a seperate 4 bedroom house , a car, telephone bills, frequent travels etc , then in that local jamaat the sabeel tag is much higher. Like in Houston u.s.a. jamaat even a 14 year old son of a son of a muffy far flung family is treated royally and one can see in previous posts the ghettas of Houston folding hands and bowing down to this 14 year old who really wants to be left alone so he can play his video games.



Shk Mohammed Yamani
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 1:13 pm

#25

Unread post by Shk Mohammed Yamani » Mon May 22, 2017 6:35 pm

I Rizwan wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 1:11 am
I have never mentioned that I have left fold neither I have mentioned any thing against bohra theology, I am just against extravagant and ayyash life of leader.

I am very much sabeel payer and not just that I sponsor 10 days of dabba to all needy in my place every month. Alhumdolillah because it helps them. I have presence in 8 different countries and attached receipt is from my home town in India. I pay sabeel every where because this money is used for maintenance of masjid and madrassa.

this is my sabeel reciept. and it clearly stats "ghar ni sabeel" which means sabeel per house hold and not per person like some idiots are shouting here.

Mr yamani, better you applogize for blaming an innocent woman for the theft which she never did.
As always, speaking from he's backside, I Rizwon, who you fooling huh? You can't even produce one legit receipt from the so called 8 PLACES where you pay your sabeel insted you are posting a copy of the receipt which might have been issued to your grandpa for 52 rupees donations he made some 10 years ago in some poxy little village in your Paki land.
Like I said before, [DELETED] coz when you come with all your bull crap here, the whole forum stinks and we are all allergic to your bad smell so please keep your stinking smell in Pakistan.



canadian
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:57 pm

#26

Unread post by canadian » Mon May 22, 2017 7:18 pm

I Rizwan wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 1:11 am

I am very much sabeel payer and not just that I sponsor 10 days of dabba to all needy in my place every month. Alhumdolillah because it helps them. I have presence in 8 different countries and attached receipt is from my home town in India. I pay sabeel every where because this money is used for maintenance of masjid and madrassa.
So now we know that Mr. I (Incredible) Rizwan- aka yfm, suni monk, etc., etc.- has not only eight different id’s but also eight residences in eight countries with perhaps eight wives and eight children each and (don’t forget) eight different I phones.
Sheikh Yamani, please therefore be very respectful to this super human, super rich personality.



Biradar
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#27

Unread post by Biradar » Mon May 22, 2017 8:48 pm

canadian wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 7:18 pm
I Rizwan wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 1:11 am

I am very much sabeel payer and not just that I sponsor 10 days of dabba to all needy in my place every month. Alhumdolillah because it helps them. I have presence in 8 different countries and attached receipt is from my home town in India. I pay sabeel every where because this money is used for maintenance of masjid and madrassa.
So now we know that Mr. I (Incredible) Rizwan- aka yfm, suni monk, etc., etc.- has not only eight different id’s but also eight residences in eight countries with perhaps eight wives and eight children each and (don’t forget) eight different I phones.
With 1/8 of the brain of a normal human. Which explains a lot.



SBM
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#28

Unread post by SBM » Mon May 22, 2017 9:49 pm

With 1/8 of the brain of a normal human. Which explains a lot.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Ozdundee
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

#29

Unread post by Ozdundee » Tue May 23, 2017 1:46 am

This is barakat of Misaq phenomenon .

1 misaq 10 dabba 8 Sabeel 1 Mumin. 8 wives now that is superhuman. 1.10.8.1.8

Reformist 0 Misaq 0 dabba 0 sabeel 1 wife even that causing headache. 0.0.0.1



zinger
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#30

Unread post by zinger » Tue May 23, 2017 3:34 am

Took the liberty of editing the post a little.

Also, for some reason, i feel our Sheikh Mohammad Yamani is ID no. 49.

I could be wrong, but as far as the virus goes, I'm usually not
canadian wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 7:18 pm
I Rizwan wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 1:11 am

I am very much sabeel payer and not just that I sponsor 10 days of dabba to all needy in my place every month. Alhumdolillah because it helps them. I have presence in 8 different countries and attached receipt is from my home town in India. I pay sabeel every where because this money is used for maintenance of masjid and madrassa.
So now we know that Mr. I (Incredible) Rizwan- aka yfm, suni monk, etc., etc.- has not only FORTY eight different id’s but also FORTY eight residences in FORTY eight countries with perhaps FORTY eight wives and FORTY eight children each and (don’t forget) FORTY eight different I phones.
Sheikh Yamani, please therefore be very respectful to this super human, super rich personality.