Misaq the practise of oath taking in Dawoodi Bohra

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I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

Re: Misaq the practise of oath taking in Dawoodi Bohra

#31

Unread post by I Rizwan » Tue May 23, 2017 5:48 am

Jealous idiots :lol:

So yamani when are you going to apologise for you're lies? Do it before Ramadan...even shaitaan like you can be forgiven in Ramadan if you apologise honestly.

And next time do not post lies.



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#32

Unread post by I Rizwan » Tue May 23, 2017 5:50 am

Ramadan is month of forgiveness but as we can see shyateen are busy gathering more sins. No forgiveness for such shayateens.



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#33

Unread post by I Rizwan » Tue May 23, 2017 6:04 am

Bhikaris cant even pay nominal sabeels in their respective jamaat and chale hain movement chalane :lol: :lol: :lol:



SBM
Posts: 6170
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#34

Unread post by SBM » Tue May 23, 2017 7:37 am

Hey IR
Donot change topics, List those 8 countries where you pay Sabeel. Post the receipts with redacted last name (SURNAME)



I Rizwan
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 am

#35

Unread post by I Rizwan » Tue May 23, 2017 8:31 am

SBM wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 7:37 am
Hey IR
Donot change topics, List those 8 countries where you pay Sabeel. Post the receipts with redacted last name (SURNAME)
[DELETED]



Shk Mohammed Yamani
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 1:13 pm

#36

Unread post by Shk Mohammed Yamani » Tue May 23, 2017 6:20 pm

This is how a misak walo troll who hides under hes big mommas gaagra will behave when the lies he has been spilling out for weeks comes to haunt him.
So here's to one and only troll with 48 id's, keep calm and carry on (creating more id's) :lol:
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Ozdundee
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

#37

Unread post by Ozdundee » Tue May 23, 2017 10:48 pm

Ok back to topic what does sabeel have to do with misaq.

No one commented if without misaq will the person be stopped from entering the centres or pray in saf.

What is Fetemi Dawaat ruling on misaq. Is it compulsory?



SBM
Posts: 6170
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#38

Unread post by SBM » Wed May 24, 2017 7:57 am

Is it compulsory
Simple Answer----YES
To be Muslim You have to say SHAHADHA
To be Bohra You have to say Misaq
There is no Compulsion in Islam but there is Compulsion in Bohraism



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#39

Unread post by kimanumanu » Wed May 24, 2017 8:38 am

Ozdundee wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 10:48 pm
Ok back to topic what does sabeel have to do with misaq.

No one commented if without misaq will the person be stopped from entering the centres or pray in saf.

What is Fetemi Dawaat ruling on misaq. Is it compulsory?
As far as I know, misaq is only used to classify someone as an adult so that, where sabeel is counted per head, they can start contributing to the Jamaat funds. I doubt anyone checks about misaq or even sabeel for access to mosques/markaz/centres.



Biradar
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#40

Unread post by Biradar » Wed May 24, 2017 9:00 pm

To bring the topic back to it origins.

It seems most people here are completely ignorant of the fundamental importance of covenants (misaq) in Islam. In fact, one would be justified in saying that Islam is a religion of the covenant. If we look at the Qur'an, we see that a Primordial Covenant, which Allah made between all of humanity and Himself, underlies the fundamental relationship we have to the Divine. In Q 7:172, before the creation of time and space, Allah asks all the assembled (future) descendants of Adam, "Am I not your Lord?" ("alastu birabbikum?") Everyone replied "Yes, we have testified" ("balā shahid'nā").

This is the Day of Alastu, or the Day of the Primordial Covenant. Our physical birth into this world makes us forget this fundamental covenant we made with Allah, and hence it is necessary for the Qu'ran, via the means of the Prophet, to remind us of this.

There are many other references to covenants in the Qur'an, including Q 13:20 where the word "l-mīthāqa" occurs explicitly. This verse occurs in the section of the sur'ah "Thunder", starting from verse 19. Allah asks: "Then is he who knows that which has been revealed to you from your Lord is the truth like the one who is blind?" Allah continues "They alone take warning who are wise, who fulfill their covenant with Allah and do not break their mīthāq".

The word here is break, "yanquḍūna", their contract, "l-mīthāqa". The idea of covenant and contract occurs in many, many places in the Qur'an. One could elaborate further, but it is clear that the idea of mīthāq is central to Islam.

Now, we see that the concept of mīthāq was not restricted to some metaphysical realm. The Prophet took the covenant of early converts, and, as we all know well, after his Farewell Pilgrimage, at Ghadir Khum he renewed the covenant and then appointed Ali as his successor. After the passing away of the Prophet, the Khalifas all took covenants from the Muslims. In fact, as we also all very well know, Imam Hussain refused to give an oath of allegiance to Yazid (LA). The result was that, to protect the truth and Islam, he had to sacrifice his life. His family and companion's also sacrificed their lives, rather than submit to the tyranny of Yazid.

The current text of the mīthāq is likely very old. We read in all works of history and doctrine that the entry into the community of the Imam was via the covenant. There are numerous stories in which individuals were tested and prepared before they were allowed to give the mīthāq to the Imam or his representative. Part of this was to maintain secrecy, not only of the whereabouts of the Imam, but also the inner doctrines of the faith. The mīthāq we give today is likely based on an early model, and essentially is a formalized version of these early mīthāq texts.

It is true that like most things, the Mafia Kothar has used the mīthāq to further control the life of the Bohras. To force the mīthāq on young boys and girls is absurd, as that was not its purpose. Certainly, there was no expectation of large sums of money as sabeeil or other dues from these kids! In the general degradation of the community in the last 25-30 years, the sacred idea of mīthāq has turned into another money making gimmick by the Kothar.

In any case, the mīthāq itself is a completely Islamic concept, in fact, deeply foundational to the relationship between us and Allah. To denounce the whole thing, just because some greedy Kothari and now the followers of More-la Muffy have turned it into yet another money maker, is not wise or correct.



Biradar
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#41

Unread post by Biradar » Wed May 24, 2017 9:28 pm

A couple of more points.

The Qur'an is a complex book, and often themes are not developed in a unit. Part of this, in my opinion, a test from Allah, who wants us to internalize the text and find meanings in juxtapositions of various verses, not always in the order we find them in the written text.

If we think about this a little, we find that the analogous Day of Alastu, i.e. the Day of the Primordial Covenant actually occurs on Earth, after the final pilgrimage of the Prophet. The Prophet asks, echoing the Primordial Question, "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?". Everyone replies, "Yes, O Messenger of God." This is the primary and primordial covenant which the Prophet takes from Muslims, appointing right after this, Ali as his successor. Immediately following this, the (part of) verse Q 5:3 was revealed "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion".

Now, if we connect to the other verse I quoted, i.e Q 13:19 and 13:20 we realize that those who have understood the message of the Prophet, i.e. his appointment of Ali as his successor and his waasi, upon whom the Imamat is founded, are not like those who are blind, i.e. those who have rejected Ali in favor of others. Hence, in many ways, one can consider that the recognition of Ali and the Imams is the true completion of the original, Primordial Covenant.

Just something to reflect upon.



Ozdundee
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

#42

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu May 25, 2017 2:24 am

Birader thank you

Is the cocenant in Quran between believer and Allah or a follower and human.

I have no objection to covenant between man and Allah as there is no material or power motive. Where a modern day living human tries to be an intercession, greed and manipulation is widespread.

Secondly there was situation and place when misaq was useful. We live in 21st century we are not in war and the wording of Bohra misaq is outrageous and recited every three months. The basis of misaq to deny people services or social participation.

The Shia covenant understood by Isamili is different from Jafferia. This also different from Sunni. It is a matter of secterian relevance and not Islamic



AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

#43

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Thu May 25, 2017 11:28 am

The oath should be put out in public. The world at large should know about this oppressive oath that violates democratic rights of Bohras. It's violation of human rights itself. It has to make it to mainstream media.



Biradar
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#44

Unread post by Biradar » Thu May 25, 2017 12:16 pm

AgnosticIndian wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 11:28 am
The oath should be put out in public. The world at large should know about this oppressive oath that violates democratic rights of Bohras. It's violation of human rights itself. It has to make it to mainstream media.
One may say that Islam itself "violates democratic rights of Bohras". You are making a fundamental mistake here. You think that religions must be "democratic" or support some leftist liberal idea of "human rights". Let us not conflate religious beliefs with something that may be incompatible.



AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

#45

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Thu May 25, 2017 1:16 pm

Biradar wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 12:16 pm
AgnosticIndian wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 11:28 am
The oath should be put out in public. The world at large should know about this oppressive oath that violates democratic rights of Bohras. It's violation of human rights itself. It has to make it to mainstream media.
One may say that Islam itself "violates democratic rights of Bohras". You are making a fundamental mistake here. You think that religions must be "democratic" or support some leftist liberal idea of "human rights". Let us not conflate religious beliefs with something that may be incompatible.
Well yes. No place for Islam in a democracy. Muslims are proving it world over.