The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

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zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#1

Unread post by zinger » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:22 am

Hello,

I have, for some time now, been digging in the old archives of the forum and have a question, answers for which i cannot seem to find.

We all know that the reform movement really picked up pace after what happend in Galiakot and the attack on the 4 Ustaads Shaikh Ahmed Ali, Sheikh Hasan Ali, Shaikh Sajjad Husain and the 4th Ustaad who's name i cannot remember

We also know that Yusuf Najmuddin and his followers identified these 4 Ustaads as having thoughts detrimental to the current system i.e. the legitimacy of the Dai being Dai Mutlaq or Dai Nazim and were aghast at what had happened

What i really want to know is that how did they come across this information? Were these 4 Ustaads betrayed by their own people or was it that they were just picked up at random?

I have read posts from 2009 even, including numerous posts by Mubarak AKA Doctor but this question has always been unanswered. Did the establishment act on information recieved from the students or was it just mere coincidence that these 4 gents were targetted.

Incase this has been answered, then can someone point me in the right direction?

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#2

Unread post by zinger » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:40 am

For some reason, no one is replying.

Please allow me to clarify my stance.

I do not, and i repeat, i do not wish to rake up another controversy, especially on a topic that has reams of matter devoted to its discussion.

My only query is that was there solid proof that these 4 ustaads were anti-establishment or did someone spread these false rumours with the intention of being vindicated over some matter or were they chosen on the basis of some unfounded guilt or just picked up at random

Biradar
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Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#3

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:18 am

zinger wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:40 am
For some reason, no one is replying.

Please allow me to clarify my stance.

I do not, and i repeat, i do not wish to rake up another controversy, especially on a topic that has reams of matter devoted to its discussion.

My only query is that was there solid proof that these 4 ustaads were anti-establishment or did someone spread these false rumours with the intention of being vindicated over some matter or were they chosen on the basis of some unfounded guilt or just picked up at random
The question of chain of nass having stopped was a topic of common discussion at the Jaamia of old. This is according to the ustaads who were thrown out themselves. However, for a long time the da'is choose to ignore these discussions as they were not in a strong position. The community of scholars had significant clout in those days, and even da'is were not able to easily thwart them. However, this power was eroding and soon the da'i became extremely powerful, and in a final spectacular show-down, utterly defeated the community of scholars. The defeat is so complete and total now, that there is zero chance of any rebellion from within Jaamia.

So yes, they were not chosen on basis of "unfounded guilt". These people really believed that nass had stopped. There is no doubt about that. They may still have preferred to stay within the community as they were used to the lifestyle, but there was no more compromising with acknowledging that the da'i was really the da'i al-mutlaq and not some caretaker figure that these people said he was. They could not accept this and so were removed.

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#4

Unread post by zinger » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:02 am

Biradar wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:18 am
zinger wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:40 am
For some reason, no one is replying.

Please allow me to clarify my stance.

I do not, and i repeat, i do not wish to rake up another controversy, especially on a topic that has reams of matter devoted to its discussion.

My only query is that was there solid proof that these 4 ustaads were anti-establishment or did someone spread these false rumours with the intention of being vindicated over some matter or were they chosen on the basis of some unfounded guilt or just picked up at random
The question of chain of nass having stopped was a topic of common discussion at the Jaamia of old. This is according to the ustaads who were thrown out themselves. However, for a long time the da'is choose to ignore these discussions as they were not in a strong position. The community of scholars had significant clout in those days, and even da'is were not able to easily thwart them. However, this power was eroding and soon the da'i became extremely powerful, and in a final spectacular show-down, utterly defeated the community of scholars. The defeat is so complete and total now, that there is zero chance of any rebellion from within Jaamia.

So yes, they were not chosen on basis of "unfounded guilt". These people really believed that nass had stopped. There is no doubt about that. They may still have preferred to stay within the community as they were used to the lifestyle, but there was no more compromising with acknowledging that the da'i was really the da'i al-mutlaq and not some caretaker figure that these people said he was. They could not accept this and so were removed.
Aah now i understand.
So basically, they were squealed upon, by some students

Which brings me to another point, but will discuss that in PM with you, not here

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#5

Unread post by zinger » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:10 am

Birader, have sent you a PM. Could you kindly confirm if you got it?

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#6

Unread post by zinger » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:51 am

@ Admin

it seems that some messages are still in my outbox.
Besides the one i sent to Birader this morning, there is one that i sent to Ghulam Muhammad too on 13th May 2019, and forwarded the same again this morning to him

all 3 are still showing in my outbox. any reason for this?

@ Birader and Ghulam Muhammad - Is there some way to contact you in private besides through the PM facility here?

Biradar
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#7

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:03 am

zinger wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:51 am
@ Admin

it seems that some messages are still in my outbox.
Besides the one i sent to Birader this morning, there is one that i sent to Ghulam Muhammad too on 13th May 2019, and forwarded the same again this morning to him

all 3 are still showing in my outbox. any reason for this?

@ Birader and Ghulam Muhammad - Is there some way to contact you in private besides through the PM facility here?
Zinger: The messages will remain in your "outbox" till the recipient reads the message. This is how the message board software works. I did get your message.

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#8

Unread post by zinger » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:48 am

Biradar wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:03 am
zinger wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:51 am
@ Admin

it seems that some messages are still in my outbox.
Besides the one i sent to Birader this morning, there is one that i sent to Ghulam Muhammad too on 13th May 2019, and forwarded the same again this morning to him

all 3 are still showing in my outbox. any reason for this?

@ Birader and Ghulam Muhammad - Is there some way to contact you in private besides through the PM facility here?
Zinger: The messages will remain in your "outbox" till the recipient reads the message. This is how the message board software works. I did get your message.
oh i see, was not aware of that

kseeker
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#9

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:20 am

Did the establishment act on information received from the students or was it just mere coincidence that these 4 gents were targetted.
It's a bit of both. I will share what I have learnt about the 4 Ustaads and the movement itself...

To answer your question, The 4 Ustaads (any many others in the Jamea at that time and very few even now) believed that there was no Nass after the 46th Dai and Syedna Yousuf Najmuddin was ELECTED as a Nazim...the agreement was that it will not be publicly announced that he is a Nazim.. if someone approaches to ask him if he is a Nazim or by Nass, he would tell honestly that he was a Nazim but they could not claim to be Dai Al Mutlaq....

STS was the first after the 47th to claim to be Dai Al Mutlaq... many people (who knew the truth) did not like this and were silenced by STS.. Even though shrewd and overtly ambitious, STS was a very learned person who respected Shk Sajjad Hussain Sarangpurwala (the first and most senior of these Ustaads) for his knowledge and especially for the fact that he did not rebel or cause one even though knowing the truth...

Now, on the other hand, Yousuf Najmuddin (son of STS) had a personal vendetta against the 4 ustaads. He really wanted the position of the Da'i and was lobbying as strong as he could.. STS did not want that and Sheikh Sajjad Hussain also recommended to STS to make SMB the Dai... SSH(Sheikh Sajjad Hussain) is one of the 7 witnesses of the Nass of STS to SMB... anyone in the 'royal' family who has access to such documents can verify that SSH and Sheikh Hasan Ali are both witnesses of the Nass... this is how close they were to STS...
Yousuf Najmuddin found out about this and there the animosity started...

to stop YN from whining, STS made him the rector of the Jamea... In his first year's tenure as a rector, he created the final examination for the most senior class, SSH pointed out some grammatical and syntax errors in his questions and sent them to STS... this really pissed of YN and was the turning point for him...in my opinion SSH should not have done that, maybe his actions might have been out of jealousy of not getting that post himself... whatever the reason, that move turned the tide in his direction... (side note: if you notice today, whenever the aamils abuse the 4 ustaads, they say that " these people were very arrogant and had a lot of ghamand about their mahaarat in arabic and now see what happened to them" ... this is what they are referring to)

Once STS died, there was no stopping YN.. he wanted complete control of the establishment and the people.. the only way to do so is to get rid of the learned...or at least subdue them to the extent where one is confident that they will not speak and use their knowledge to their benefit... YN did not act at first.. he waited to strengthen his base and allies in the jamea...

When Sheikh Hasan Ali went for Umrah, the aamil of Makkah at that time was accompanying him to the Kaaba.. at that location he asked him his true belief.. the sheikh found it difficult to lie at that place and moment and in weakness told openly what he believed... the Aamil conveyed this to YN and then the rest is history....not only did he get rid of the 4 ustaads, he used this as an excuse to get every book which would 'weaken' their claim or control out of the system and the jamea... they have raided houses of many aalims and jamea students and taken away all their books for them and told them to get raza from SMB and he will decide which books one should have...

There are many out there who believe that the 46th Dai was the last one.. but unlike others, they did not want to create a separate sect or establishment as they believed that history made it evident that whenever this happened, more people lost track than gained it... and as long as no Bida'a was being performed by SMB or any binding law in the Shari'a being changed or broken which could throw mumineen out of the circle of imaan, it was better to stay amongst them and silently educate people as to what is wrong and right... there are some very wealthy and influential people who are deep in the jamaat but still believe till 46 only...even in the Jameas, they are present but Biradar is right, there is no way an uprising will happen again from there... their view is to keep silent until the promised Hujjat comes calling towards the Imaam....

this is a website run by them:

Code: Select all

https://www.thebohras.com/
Many broken links and unorganized but some very useful info on there regarding our history and some good tidbits as well..It also has some audio lectures by Sheikh Ahmed Ali (the youngest of the Ustaads who passed away in Udaipur) ..some very interesting claims/info in there:
Aga Khani historian Farhad Daftry and Bohra Aalim Sheikh al Fazil Chand Khan Ji Rampura wala in their books have wrote that Imam-uz-zaman wrote letters to Sardar Najmuddin sahib (after the martyrdom of last 46th dai Syyedna Mohammad Badruddin a.q.) to hand the leadership of Dawat to Mazoon sahib Syyedi Jamaluddin sahib r.z. (who was mazoon of Shaheed Dai Mohammad Badruddin a.q.) .
Till this day, the 4 Ustaads are mentioned in bayaans and are cursed upon while many others who were bigger oppositions have been forgotten.. the reason, to my understanding, is that the believers till 46 chose not to break off and stay integrated and silently educate people... they have no option but the feed poison even 50 years after the incident to prevent people from converting.. they keep cursing but they never really say WHY were they removed and what they did... all they say is that the "napaak" would stop people from doing imaam hussain maatam... which well is true to the extent that they did not see the point of orchestrated chest thumping as a way to mourn the Ahle Bayt....

I found out quite more than a decade ago that YN had given an interview to DAWN news in the early 70s and unknowingly admitted that his father was a Dai Naazim and there was no Nass... when he realized this, he put in a lot of resources to get rid of them... I contacted Insaf Sahab (may he rest in peace) as to who he might know have it... he pointed me in a couple of directions but the people in question had passed away and their children.. lets say.. were not very friendly to my approach.. understandably so.. no one wants the wrath of the Kothar... I have also tried DAWN directly and certain resourced journalists but apparently the master copies of many papers of that period were destroyed in the early 2000s due to rain damage..

A lot of this info was gained from people in the Surat Jamea at that time, the Ustaads' peers and some of their family members

momeenbhai
Posts: 573
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Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#10

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:24 am

ok seems all this is true and reliable because there is no sign of HAQ in dawat any more. also the way they have stopped discussing any thing beyond Taher saifuddin and concentrating every thing on last 2 dai, makes it obvious that they want to keep few secrets.

any ways now talking about the present scenario, I am looking forward to FATEMI DAWAT guys to acknowledge all this and put it in straight record and accept TS MB and Qutbuddin were all dai nizaam.

why expecting this from them and not muffy?

thats because taheri claims they are TRUTHFUL and always supported truth, also because right now they have nothing to lose if they speak the truth.

while on other hand muffy is control of all properties so expecting him to accept this and destroy his own empire is foolish.
Last edited by momeenbhai on Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

momeenbhai
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Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#11

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:34 am

In my opinion, the biggest crime taher saifuddin and Muhammed Burhanuddin did was restricting people from reading Quran with meanings.

they made it soo bad in people mind they people literally started abusing anyone who would promote reading Quran with meanings.

this was done to keep people away from real Islam and to keep them busy with a little world of dai praises.

keep people ignorant from the real text of Islam they will have no way to find out ISLAM.

kseeker
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#12

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:55 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:34 am
In my opinion, the biggest crime taher saifuddin and Muhammed Burhanuddin did was restricting people from reading Quran with meanings.

they made it soo bad in people mind they people literally started abusing anyone who would promote reading Quran with meanings.

this was done to keep people away from real Islam and to keep them busy with a little world of dai praises.

keep people ignorant from the real text of Islam they will have no way to find out ISLAM.
As far as I know, this has been a practice much before STS... the idea is to prevent reading or understanding something incorrectly, which happens a lot once things are translated...however, what has happened is that rather than doing Quran tafseer in bayaans, all they do is sing songs about 52 and 53 with the intent to brainwash people... its easier to control a donkey... you even need "Raza Mubarak" to read Daim Ul Islam!..

STF will never call this out.. because if he accepts Dai's are only till 46, why should anyone follow him? Also, he will literally be calling his father and grand fathers a liar...

momeenbhai
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Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#13

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:57 am

kseeker wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:55 am
momeenbhai wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:34 am
In my opinion, the biggest crime taher saifuddin and Muhammed Burhanuddin did was restricting people from reading Quran with meanings.

they made it soo bad in people mind they people literally started abusing anyone who would promote reading Quran with meanings.

this was done to keep people away from real Islam and to keep them busy with a little world of dai praises.

keep people ignorant from the real text of Islam they will have no way to find out ISLAM.


STF will never call this out.. because if he accepts Dai's are only till 46, why should anyone follow him? Also, he will literally be calling his father and grand fathers a liar...
EXACTLY....and this is why I hate those guys more than muffy group... because they claim to be most saccha people while they know the truth and want to keep the truth hidden.

as far as Quran is a concern, QURAN SAYS " WE SENT QURAN IN SIMPLE LANGUAGE SO EVERY ONE CAN UNDERSTAND IT"


"As the Quran says, "With the truth we (God) have sent it down and with the truth it has come down." The Quran frequently asserts in its text that it is divinely ordained. Some verses in the Quran seem to imply that even those who do not speak Arabic would understand the Quran if it were recited to them."





so I am not sure who was behind the idea to propagate that normal people don't have IQ to understand Quran.

BTW this same logic is used by BRAHMINS to keep the normal people stay away from religious next of vedaas and they claim no other people can understand those books other than brahmins.

kseeker
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#14

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:20 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:57 am
kseeker wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:55 am




STF will never call this out.. because if he accepts Dai's are only till 46, why should anyone follow him? Also, he will literally be calling his father and grand fathers a liar...
EXACTLY....and this is why I hate those guys more than muffy group... because they claim to be most saccha people while they know the truth and want to keep the truth hidden.

as far as Quran is a concern, QURAN SAYS " WE SENT QURAN IN SIMPLE LANGUAGE SO EVERY ONE CAN UNDERSTAND IT"


"As the Quran says, "With the truth we (God) have sent it down and with the truth it has come down." The Quran frequently asserts in its text that it is divinely ordained. Some verses in the Quran seem to imply that even those who do not speak Arabic would understand the Quran if it were recited to them."





so I am not sure who was behind the idea to propagate that normal people don't have IQ to understand Quran.

BTW this same logic is used by BRAHMINS to keep the normal people stay away from religious next of vedaas and they claim no other people can understand those books other than brahmins.
Ironically, the passage of the Quran you have quoted is mentioned in ismaili taweel where it says that by Quran it means Imaam or the Wali/Wasi...

I also think that discouraging people reading the translations has nothing to do with IQ or with race, as in the case of Brahmins.. it is purely to do with studying from the 'correct source'....
For example: If you go to that website link i mentioned earlier, there are over 30 hours of Quran Tafseer and translation done by Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj.. he often makes a translation and where appropriate, explains how his translation differs from translations made by Sunnis or Shia'as.. In many cases, he also quotes which book or source is his translation from....

my point is, he emphasizes on why the correct source is necessary.... I do understand your point that keeping people 'away' from the Quran makes it easier for the shepherd to manage the herd... but it is equally important to get an understanding from the correct source...

momeenbhai
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Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#15

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:33 am

again coming back to present scenario, its a shame on TAHERI gang that they have hoarded all kind of fancy degrees from foreign universities but at the end, they use all that knowledge to speak lies and fraud people.

its a shame they are using all their knowledge to hide truth about STS and SMB to keep the business running.

momeenbhai
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#16

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:39 am

kseeker wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:20 am
momeenbhai wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:57 am




Ironically, the passage of the Quran you have quoted is mentioned in ismaili taweel where it says that by Quran it means Imaam or the Wali/Wasi...

I have read Quran several times and in many translations, and believe me I found Quran is simple and lovely book and it saddens me when people run away from this book thinking they can never understand it.

yes IMAM is knowledge and that is why QURAN makes sense with the life of Muhammed(s) and panjatan life.

momeenbhai
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#17

Unread post by momeenbhai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:42 am

what I found funny is bohra amil will try to STOP you reading Quran by asking funny questions, like what "ALI LAAM MIM " means.

I mean come on, its not just ALIF LAAM MIM in Quran, QURAN is lot more than those few words.

yes some may have hidden meanings as well, but overall QURAN is simple message to HUMAN BEINGS.

Biradar
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#18

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:14 pm

Very good writeup, kseeker.

It is possible that nass did not happen on S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin. However, it is highly unlikely. It is far more likely that the nass happened but that the senior mashaaikh did not accept it, at least in their hearts. They wielded great power and influence at that point and likely thought that they wanted to control the dawaat and did not want the power to be in the hands of the da'i. Hence they refused to acknowledge the nass had happened and manipulated S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin and put pressure on him. Which they could, again, as they had great power and influence.

However, what the mashaaikh did not realize was that eventually they would be throughly and totally defeated. Partly, as they themselves were not models of piety and had many petty jealousies and rivalries. In fact, they did not agree with each other and turned on their colleagues, abandoning them and joining the party they knew was eventually going to win. You can listen to the lectures of Ahmed Ali Raj to learn of much of these petty jealousies and changes of allegiance.

I have studied the history of this era in some detail and I have not come away impressed with the character of the mashaaikh. In fact, S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin appears to be a very calm and kind hearted person who really cared about the community and was concerned about the havoc his opposition was trying to create. In fact, his silence and acceptance of the harassment of the mashaaikh is a strong indicator of a person who took to heart the example of M. Ali bin Abi Talib and instead of picking a fight, choose the path of patience and hardship. Meanwhile, the mashaaikh were petty, fighting amongst each other for power and influence, and highly superstitious and irrational.

Think of the four ustaad themselves. They were kicked out and did not leave out of principle. In fact, they were happy to maintain their lifestyles and enjoy their perks even though they "knew" the da'i was "naazim". They would have loved to come back to the community if they were allowed to. One should not imagine, also, that these people were progressive and forward looking. In fact, they were very old-fashioned and orthodox. They only choose to seek protection with the Progressives for convenience. In fact, the Progressives did not like them either, as their interpretation of Islam was too narrow and hostile to modernity.

As to the so-called "imami letters". One has to be really naive to believe anything other than these were written by someone amongst the mashaaikh themselves. These letters are not interesting and if it was really the imaam why would he not directly intervene and send mysterious letters instead?

In any case. The Fatemi Dawaat people accept that the nass has happened and that all da'is are da'i al-mutlaq. So why would they acknowledge anything else? I mean, what type of naive and childish demand is this? All 54 da'is are rightly appointed and in the chain of duat al-mutalqeen. So the question of acknowledging some ridiculous and imaginary version of history is out of the question.

kseeker
Posts: 146
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Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#19

Unread post by kseeker » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:06 am

Biradar wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:14 pm
Very good writeup, kseeker.

It is possible that nass did not happen on S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin. However, it is highly unlikely. It is far more likely that the nass happened but that the senior mashaaikh did not accept it, at least in their hearts. They wielded great power and influence at that point and likely thought that they wanted to control the dawaat and did not want the power to be in the hands of the da'i. Hence they refused to acknowledge the nass had happened and manipulated S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin and put pressure on him. Which they could, again, as they had great power and influence.

However, what the mashaaikh did not realize was that eventually they would be throughly and totally defeated. Partly, as they themselves were not models of piety and had many petty jealousies and rivalries. In fact, they did not agree with each other and turned on their colleagues, abandoning them and joining the party they knew was eventually going to win. You can listen to the lectures of Ahmed Ali Raj to learn of much of these petty jealousies and changes of allegiance.

I have studied the history of this era in some detail and I have not come away impressed with the character of the mashaaikh. In fact, S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin appears to be a very calm and kind hearted person who really cared about the community and was concerned about the havoc his opposition was trying to create. In fact, his silence and acceptance of the harassment of the mashaaikh is a strong indicator of a person who took to heart the example of M. Ali bin Abi Talib and instead of picking a fight, choose the path of patience and hardship. Meanwhile, the mashaaikh were petty, fighting amongst each other for power and influence, and highly superstitious and irrational.

Think of the four ustaad themselves. They were kicked out and did not leave out of principle. In fact, they were happy to maintain their lifestyles and enjoy their perks even though they "knew" the da'i was "naazim". They would have loved to come back to the community if they were allowed to. One should not imagine, also, that these people were progressive and forward looking. In fact, they were very old-fashioned and orthodox. They only choose to seek protection with the Progressives for convenience. In fact, the Progressives did not like them either, as their interpretation of Islam was too narrow and hostile to modernity.

As to the so-called "imami letters". One has to be really naive to believe anything other than these were written by someone amongst the mashaaikh themselves. These letters are not interesting and if it was really the imaam why would he not directly intervene and send mysterious letters instead?

In any case. The Fatemi Dawaat people accept that the nass has happened and that all da'is are da'i al-mutlaq. So why would they acknowledge anything else? I mean, what type of naive and childish demand is this? All 54 da'is are rightly appointed and in the chain of duat al-mutalqeen. So the question of acknowledging some ridiculous and imaginary version of history is out of the question.
I will answer to this in three parts... a) my personal view of them and their followers while i spoke with them. b) the historical aspect of this c)the religious aspect of this..

a) When i spoke with them, I did notice a very strong air of arrogance and jealousy... some of it comes with their pride of the knowledge they possess - which I cannot doubt, and only a fool would doubt that they were not knowledgeable in the theology and shari'a... A lot of their anger, jealousy and now hypocrisy also comes out of ego and the severe humiliation they and their families have faced.... so yes, it is very evident from Shk Ahmed Ali's recordings ( don't you think even STF shows a hint of these?) I agree with this viewpoint of yours...

b) the historical aspect - first, let's talk about what happened with the ustaads.. I have spoken to their relatives and ALSO to one who was present with YN when all this happened and was eye witnesses to some of the main events. His take was this.. First YN called Shk Hasan Ali and asked him if this was true (what he said to the Aamil of Makkah).. the sheikh said that yes he did say it but begged for forgiveness.. they then called Sheikh Sajjad Hussain and said this is what your brother has said, say laanat on him and take bara'at from him and everyone related to him.. Sheikh Sajjad Hussain begged YN to forgive his brother.. YN said how dare he not obey him and said now both of you will be removed.. he did this till all 4 were rounded up... the sheikhs DID ask to be removed from their posts and leave silently, at that time YN said yes .. but later realized that unless he makes a deal of it, this might backfire or they might come back stronger so the very next day he called them and made a spectacle of them in front of everyone, harassed their families, forced their wives to leave them ( these last parts I have heard from many sources), sent goons regularly to their homes to beat up Sheikh Sajjad Hussain and his family members....They tore their clothes, spat on them and made them go to SMB on their knees in front of a jamaat of people and ask for forgiveness, and SMB openly said he forgives them.. and still it continued.. was SMB lying or does his word means nothing? Now lets say they are lying and none of this really happened, will you deny that the shehzaadas, kothar, aamils and SMB himself have openly abused them in their waaz and bayaans? What kind of Dai allows this?

Secondly, I also asked them why did they stay in the Jamea in the first place and they very openly admit that their intention was never to rebel or to create chaos or weakness amongst the dawat.. they did not believe STS was a Dai by Nass but they honored their pledge to him and were happy to serve silently under SMB as well... Also, I am honestly sure the only people who enjoy any sort of perks in this organization are the royal family or lap dogs...

Power is a very strong addiction, people who seek go to extreme lengths to get it and in most cases, they tear off from the fold and start their own branch.. you give the example of Ali in Abi Talib (AS), I think the same could apply to the sheikhs of now and of the era of the 47th Dai... they chose to keep silent then to use it as an excuse to break off and start their own branch...

I agree with you that they were not at all progressive and were proper far right orthodox.. they only got protection from the proggies cause well the proggies saw the " we have a common enemy so you are my friend" aspect.. when they actually realized what the got, they were kinda disappointed as they were looking for 'change'... and for this one thing I respect them, they did not change their beliefs according to the people they were around... I have had a few discussions with some of their staunch followers and those who have learned from them and talked about many different aspects and rules of islam and how with the advent of science, technology and evolutionary changes, one has to look at Islam in a different way... they said Mr Ahmed Ali agreed to this as well however he also said that it is not our job to change it, it is that of the Natiq... only he can come and change the shari'a of the previous natiq.... this rapidly changing world is proof that the Natiq will come soon... (FYI, they also mentioned Hijri 1446 as the year the Hujjat will start to make his mark)

It is very easy for you to call their version imaginary, foolish and fictional... and to say it is more likely that the nass happened rather than it dint.. At the same time, the rule applies to me and to them as well, its very convenient for us to say that it din't happen and your version is wrong... that's the problem with history isn't it? nothing more at times than a matter of convenience

The last part, the 'correctness' from a religious perspective is also something I asked... "What makes you (the 4 ustaads and the believers till 46) any different or better than the Isna Asharis, Aga Khanis, Sulemani or Alavi Bohras?.. all of the have had an argument over who the nass went down to...
The reply was when there is a doubt, you stop your chain of waseela there.. you do not pick or choose someone who you feel is better or whom your family and friends are following.. if you choose the wrong person as your waseela, you fail on your 'shahaadat'.... Whether their logic is right or wrong is one thing, but looking at SMB and SMS age, the corruption, nepotism of the level of Usman ibn Affan's caliphate era (or maybe even worse), greed, lies, brain washing schemes.... Id rather stop my line of Dai's than follow them...

Personally, I like STF, his outlook on things and the Ahlaaq and Ikhlaas he has (which I have judged from the very few videos I have seen of his) but Islam is not democracy or a matter of pick who you like or what you like... there is a strong aspect of submission and of progeny either of Imaams or Dais...from what this jamaat has become, it is evident that corruption and evil is very well spread amongst the top.. I have personally witnessed a lot of these.. many SMB apologists ask for people not blame SMB for YNs actions.. it was SMBs job to protect the daawat..in which he failed miserably.. and when comparisons of of the silence of Rasulallah and Ali towards Abu Bakr and Umar come, I say that Ali was not enjoying the luxurious life brought on by the advent of Abu Bakar and Umar's conquests in the name of Islam.. he could have very easily done that if he would have shown open support for the first two Caliphs but he chose not to.. SMB and SKQ both took the utmost benefits of the luxuries brought on by their father and ambitious brother

momeenbhai
Posts: 573
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Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#20

Unread post by momeenbhai » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:12 am

@Well said. especially the last part.

momeenbhai
Posts: 573
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Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#21

Unread post by momeenbhai » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:27 am

Actually, I am glad we bohras dont have any Quran translations or explanations in written form. because it is soo imaginary and out of context that it can really confuse anyone.

I will prefer to stick with a word to word translations of Quran without wanting to get into confusing explanations which anyone can write for their own preferences.

Ismaili concepts are soo out of context from Islam that it can even make you doubtful on ALLAH+Jannat+Jhannam.

it can make you go crazy. so stick to word to word literal translation to remain MUSLIM and MOMEEN.

SBM
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#22

Unread post by SBM » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:30 am

"SMB and SKQ both took the utmost benefits of the luxuries brought on by their father and ambitious brother"
And the benefits of luxuries were introduced by none other then STS, so please do not let him of the hook. It was STS who started consolidating the assets of Dawoodi Bohra Philanthropist using WAQAF as his trade mark dictatorial power. Saifee Mahal was not his property so is Saifee Hospital and other properties of Adamjee Peerbahi and many of the Maskati Trusts.
The rotting of the Dawat and arrogance of Dai was started by Syedna Taher Saifuddin and because he was the most learned of all the current crop, he used his Scholarly knowledge to subdue now known Abdes and Amtes.
He was nothing but GODFATHER of Kothari Corleone Family using Religion as his stick, a worst form of Mafia who uses religion to intimidate people.

Biradar
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#23

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:45 am

I have criticized SBM, SKQ and STF and their families for living very luxurious lifestyles on the backs of ordinary bohris. There is no doubt about this even amongst the most fanatical follower of Muffy, for example. I mean, no one can say they live a "simple" lifestyle and at the same time see them jet-setting around the world, go hunting for lions and elephants, to Switzerland for ski trips, buy core rupee sea-side properties, etc. So we are in agreement about this.

I look at the question of nass from a historical perspective. Obviously, there is no knowing for sure about some events, but one must judge events for which we do not have proof via probabilities. The decline and fall of the mashaaik really started during the time of S. Abdeali Saifuddin. Their power greatly increased during his lifetime, specially as the two da'is who followed him were educated in the jaamia. One can easily understand that the mashaaik felt that this should be the normal way succession should happen, and that the community of scholars (to which they belonged) should be the real ones in power.

Remember that even before the current set of da'is, the succession was in the same family for long periods of time. However, it seems that after S. Mohammed Badruddin bin S. Abdeali Saifuddin (who was a young boy when his father died) the mashaaik were not ready to accept another da'i who inherited his father's position. Hence they denied the nass on S Abdul Qadir Najmuddin, hoping that they would gain control of the dawaat. Obviously, they failed. However, it would be clear from the start they would fail as the machinations of the mashaaik were in secret, which left the da'i to establish control over the community openly. The mashaaik were also not united and were fighting amongst themselves for power and control. Meanwhile, the da'i managed to gain more and more control. Recall that S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin was da'i for more than 45 years. This meant that most of his opposition died out and he had a lot of time to consolidate his power.

If we look from a view of probabilities, then the nass has happened on S Abdul Qadir Najmuddin. If I had a choice between believing what the da'i said and a group of back-biting and power-hungry mashaaik said, I would pick the former. S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin was a very generous and loving man. His quiet lifestyle essentially gave a lie to the machinations of the mashaaik.

In any case, all of this is moot. The party of those mashaaik is now rotting in the dustbin of history. Perhaps a better balance of power would have been good, but it is doubtful to come about now. In fact, the power is fully one-sided now and will remain so for many generations to come. Notice how the Bohras have been turned into extreme fanatics. What was once a naturally peace loving and progressing community has been turned into a plate-licking, chest-thumping, mola-mola shouting junglees. Creative output (except in finding new ways to praise the da'i and lick his backside) has gone to zero and no one can dare do anything independent of him or his family. Sad, but this is the situation we are in.

As to the question of the Qu'ran. If the Qu'ran was an easy book to understand (say one could understand it just by reading the literal word-for-word meaning) then there would be no need for the literally 1400+ years of non-stop scholarship, tafseer literature, translations, interpretation and a whole industry of Qu'ran science. However, if one is simple minded and perhaps a fool to boot, it is best for such an ahmaak person to remain ignorant. As the Sufi's say, the path to Oneness is punctuated with Stations. However, the starting point itself is a Station and many, perhaps most, are unable to even achieve that starting Station.

momeenbhai
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#24

Unread post by momeenbhai » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:19 am

ahmak is calling others ahmak, actually, Muhammed saw never recommended any further detailing to Quran, actually greedy and ahmak people added too many things in Quran to cook their own roti.

further and further detailing to Quran lead to give ways for morons to fool people and confuse them further.

so fool biradar stay in your false paradise and die a death of jhahil.
IA Ameen summa Ameen

SBM
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#25

Unread post by SBM » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:43 am

actually greedy and ahmak people added too many things in Quran to cook their own roti.
WHAT??? Who added too many things in Quran?

Biradar
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#26

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:10 am

During his lifetime the Prophet was the sole interpreter of the Qur'an. People asked him questions and he answered. In fact, one may say that every word and action of the Prophet was a living interpretation of the Qur'an, the greatest and most authentic tafseer one can imagine. Immediately upon his death his companions realized the need to maintain a continuity in interpretations and elaborations, and hence the genre of tafseer was invented.

The need for interpretation is obvious. Elaboration of the outer and inner meaning of the Qur'an is a fundamental topic in Islam and hence has taken the central position in Islamic sciences. Even a translation is an interpretation. The Arabic language is complex and it took many centuries for the Qur'anic Arabic grammar to be fully developed.

There are long and distinguished traditions of tafseer amongst Sunnis, Shias and Sufis. Those who think that they can understand the Qu'ran from "word-by-word" translation or without referencing the classical tafseer traditions are, in the genuine sense, ahmaaks and jahils. They think the Allah, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe is a simpleton whose Word they can understand without any help. These ahmaaks think that the Prophet was just a "transmitter" and nothing more. The Prophet, in reality, is the First of the Divine Lights, the one who is most beloved of Allah. However, as is evidenced here, ahmaaks know they are being referenced even when they are not named by their name. Ironic and fittingly delicious.

kseeker
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#27

Unread post by kseeker » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:32 am

Biradar wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:45 am
I have criticized SBM, SKQ and STF and their families for living very luxurious lifestyles on the backs of ordinary bohris. There is no doubt about this even amongst the most fanatical follower of Muffy, for example. I mean, no one can say they live a "simple" lifestyle and at the same time see them jet-setting around the world, go hunting for lions and elephants, to Switzerland for ski trips, buy core rupee sea-side properties, etc. So we are in agreement about this.

I look at the question of nass from a historical perspective. Obviously, there is no knowing for sure about some events, but one must judge events for which we do not have proof via probabilities. The decline and fall of the mashaaik really started during the time of S. Abdeali Saifuddin. Their power greatly increased during his lifetime, specially as the two da'is who followed him were educated in the jaamia. One can easily understand that the mashaaik felt that this should be the normal way succession should happen, and that the community of scholars (to which they belonged) should be the real ones in power.

Remember that even before the current set of da'is, the succession was in the same family for long periods of time. However, it seems that after S. Mohammed Badruddin bin S. Abdeali Saifuddin (who was a young boy when his father died) the mashaaik were not ready to accept another da'i who inherited his father's position. Hence they denied the nass on S Abdul Qadir Najmuddin, hoping that they would gain control of the dawaat. Obviously, they failed. However, it would be clear from the start they would fail as the machinations of the mashaaik were in secret, which left the da'i to establish control over the community openly. The mashaaik were also not united and were fighting amongst themselves for power and control. Meanwhile, the da'i managed to gain more and more control. Recall that S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin was da'i for more than 45 years. This meant that most of his opposition died out and he had a lot of time to consolidate his power.

If we look from a view of probabilities, then the nass has happened on S Abdul Qadir Najmuddin. If I had a choice between believing what the da'i said and a group of back-biting and power-hungry mashaaik said, I would pick the former. S. Abdul Qadir Najmuddin was a very generous and loving man. His quiet lifestyle essentially gave a lie to the machinations of the mashaaik.

In any case, all of this is moot. The party of those mashaaik is now rotting in the dustbin of history. Perhaps a better balance of power would have been good, but it is doubtful to come about now. In fact, the power is fully one-sided now and will remain so for many generations to come. Notice how the Bohras have been turned into extreme fanatics. What was once a naturally peace loving and progressing community has been turned into a plate-licking, chest-thumping, mola-mola shouting junglees. Creative output (except in finding new ways to praise the da'i and lick his backside) has gone to zero and no one can dare do anything independent of him or his family. Sad, but this is the situation we are in.

As to the question of the Qu'ran. If the Qu'ran was an easy book to understand (say one could understand it just by reading the literal word-for-word meaning) then there would be no need for the literally 1400+ years of non-stop scholarship, tafseer literature, translations, interpretation and a whole industry of Qu'ran science. However, if one is simple minded and perhaps a fool to boot, it is best for such an ahmaak person to remain ignorant. As the Sufi's say, the path to Oneness is punctuated with Stations. However, the starting point itself is a Station and many, perhaps most, are unable to even achieve that starting Station.
You say the Da'i being true is probable, I say the Mashaikhs being true is.. there is no way to prove either so lets leave that... What I can do is make judgments based on what I see with my own eyes and listen with my ears.... If what you are saying is true, the current establishment should have gotten rid of the usurpers or the rebels and there should still be knowledgeable people who follow them or within the Jamea... I have spoken to various current ustaads who are linked to the family and are not related either.. both as a person who has zero knowledge of anything and also as a curious student who picks up tid bits from here and there... most of them know nothing...or let's say, to give them the benefit, they do know as required from an ustaad but do not disclose to people who do not have the 'raza' to learn...still, the way they reply to questions and the examples they give are solely around 51 52 and 53...as if no one else ever existed or matters or will matter for that matter... I am sure there are people who are well learned and got their education from the Jame'a but I doubt they are outside the family...

I would like to ask you a personal question, if you don't mind answering.. do you believe that the Da'i lineage is still in existence? and if so, who is the rightful one...

SBM
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#28

Unread post by SBM » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:54 pm

Biradar
I have criticized SBM, SKQ and STF and their families for living very luxurious lifestyles on the backs of ordinary bohris
And how about STS who was the mastermind of corrupting the whole system. He started the luxurious lifestyle for himself and rewarded his family on the backs of ordinary bohris?
You still think STS did not play an important role in corrupting the system?

Adam
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#29

Unread post by Adam » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:00 am

kseeker wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:20 am
Sheikh Sajjad Hussain also recommended to STS to make SMB the Dai... SSH(Sheikh Sajjad Hussain) is one of the 7 witnesses of the Nass of STS to SMB... anyone in the 'royal' family who has access to such documents can verify that SSH and Sheikh Hasan Ali are both witnesses of the Nass... this is how close they were to STS...Yousuf Najmuddin found out about this and there the animosity started...
Interesting conspiracy theories. Except, it seems your history is all jumbled up to the extent that it's evident that your theory is baseless.

Shehzada Yusuf Bs Najmuddin was born in 1340H. Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA did nass on Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA on 27 Rajab 1352H in a PUBLIC declaration during the Waaz in Surat in Masjid e Moazzam. That would make Shehzada Yusuf Bs Najmuddin 12 years old at the time. He may have most certainly been present at the time, but you'd agree it's highly improbable for a 12 year old boy to really start all scheming based on all this "animosity".

Better luck cooking-up conspiracies next time. Tsk tsk.

kseeker
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#30

Unread post by kseeker » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:21 am

Adam wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:00 am
kseeker wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:20 am
Sheikh Sajjad Hussain also recommended to STS to make SMB the Dai... SSH(Sheikh Sajjad Hussain) is one of the 7 witnesses of the Nass of STS to SMB... anyone in the 'royal' family who has access to such documents can verify that SSH and Sheikh Hasan Ali are both witnesses of the Nass... this is how close they were to STS...Yousuf Najmuddin found out about this and there the animosity started...
Interesting conspiracy theories. Except, it seems your history is all jumbled up to the extent that it's evident that your theory is baseless.

Shehzada Yusuf Bs Najmuddin was born in 1340H. Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA did nass on Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA on 27 Rajab 1352H in a PUBLIC declaration during the Waaz in Surat in Masjid e Moazzam. That would make Shehzada Yusuf Bs Najmuddin 12 years old at the time. He may have most certainly been present at the time, but you'd agree it's highly improbable for a 12 year old boy to really start all scheming based on all this "animosity".

Better luck cooking-up conspiracies next time. Tsk tsk.
That is true.. however, no official Nass document was signed then.. it was only done when YN started coercing his father into naming him the Dai instead of his brother.. there are a couple of posts on this very forum about this...It was only then that the Nass papers were produced and openly shown and YN was made the Rector of the Jamea at the same moment....