The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

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Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#31

Unread post by Adam » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:44 am

kseeker wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:21 am That is true.. however, no official Nass document was signed then.. it was only done when YN started coercing his father into naming him the Dai instead of his brother.. there are a couple of posts on this very forum about this...It was only then that the Nass papers were produced and openly shown and YN was made the Rector of the Jamea at the same moment....
Complete balderdash and stupidity.
I#ll repeat. The nass on SMB was a PUBLIC declaration in front of 100s if not 1000s of people. What was a need for a documentation, let alone demand it.
The nass was also mentioned in that years Risala publication Bahr Fadhl Kabeer and all subsequent publications.
Better luck cooking-up conspiracies next time. Tsk tsk.

Crater Lake
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#32

Unread post by Crater Lake » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:11 am

Oh lookie.... the creep has crawled out of his hole and is trying to teach history to the confused. Hey why don’t you teach your people how to form a queue first! Or perhaps teach them the correct use of silverware...

ajamali
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#33

Unread post by ajamali » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:16 am

^^perhaps he could start out by learning that “Hi Baby!” Is not a form of address to be used by people putting themselves forward as spokespeople for Bohras....

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#34

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:28 pm

Adam and his like thrive on followers of their leader to be like junglees without care for their brothers and sisters. They want their followers to behave in an uncivilized manner so that those in power have a very low bar to look civilized in comparison. I doubt he is going to bend over backwards in trying to teach followers of his leader some good manners.

In all fairness to the creep Adam, it is the job of the leader to teach his followers. Not the job of some lowly douschebag anyway....

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#35

Unread post by Adam » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:25 am

Interesting to note the Qutbi clan: Crater Lake, ajamali & objectiveobserver53 suddenly get activated by my comments, but remain silent on this very thread where accusations are hurled at the 51st & 52nd Dai by kseeker and others.
Where's the outrage there?
Their silence gives consent for the others to continue these insults on this forum. They're 100% Complicit.

Oh wait, I almost forgot. KQ actually objected to Syedna Mohammed's Burhanuddin's decision of removing these 4 Ustaads.
I guess KQ wasn't really on SMB's side to begin with. Go figure.

ajamali
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#36

Unread post by ajamali » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:45 am

Oh for Pete's sake...Don't flatter yourself. Don't you believe that you are making an ounce of a difference with your arguments. You have no credibility.
We came out to mock you because you have no face to defend Burhanuddin Moula's dawat in any way after your deplorable and pervish behavior! It is not a wonder that your leader breaks out into a rash at the thought of men and women meeting out of wedlock. It's because he has inspired that kind of behavior among the likes of you that he now has to worry about his flock.

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#37

Unread post by Adam » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:31 am

And yet you say nothing about Kseeker'ss and other's comments on Syedna Taher Saifuddin and Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.
I rest my case. Complicit.

ajamali
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#38

Unread post by ajamali » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:38 pm

Adam wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:31 am And yet you say nothing about Kseeker'ss and other's comments on Syedna Taher Saifuddin and Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.
I rest my case. Complicit.
Sometimes silence speaks a thousand words. Your case has not even gotten off the ground. So you might as well let it rest.

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#39

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:20 pm

ajamali wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:45 am your leader breaks out into a rash at the thought....
That’s a pretty compelling visual AJ 8)

SBM
Posts: 6442
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#40

Unread post by SBM » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:31 pm

Adam wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:31 am And yet you say nothing about Kseeker'ss and other's comments on Syedna Taher Saifuddin and Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.
I rest my case. Complicit.
Adam
And I question the corrupting of Dawat starting from the time of STS, Did not he started accumalating Power and nationalizing community's wealth and centralizing power for his own Elks?
In Dawat's Gambino family, STS was the Godfather.

kseeker
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#41

Unread post by kseeker » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:10 am

Adam wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:44 am
kseeker wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:21 am That is true.. however, no official Nass document was signed then.. it was only done when YN started coercing his father into naming him the Dai instead of his brother.. there are a couple of posts on this very forum about this...It was only then that the Nass papers were produced and openly shown and YN was made the Rector of the Jamea at the same moment....
Complete balderdash and stupidity.
I#ll repeat. The nass on SMB was a PUBLIC declaration in front of 100s if not 1000s of people. What was a need for a documentation, let alone demand it.
The nass was also mentioned in that years Risala publication Bahr Fadhl Kabeer and all subsequent publications.
Better luck cooking-up conspiracies next time. Tsk tsk.
I wish I was at the liberty to better explain this with names of people, but I cannot do so without their consent and I cannot risk people's lives just to tame my ego....

What I will say in short... YN has tried to get SMB 'out of the picture'.. ironically, just how STS has been accused of doing so to his elder brother...the popularity of SMB way before he became Dai and Saleh BS vouching for him (who was very popular amongst the common folk) would have ensured that YN's path would not have been easy... he DID try to cook up conspiracies in the top fold that STS MIGHT change his thought and rename the next Dai... and would give examples of this being STS's way to differentiate true followers from munfaiqs... how Rasulallah did by changing prayer direction from Bayt Al Muqadas to Bayt Allah midway during namaaz... STS was furious when he found this out... when YN realized this couldn't happen easily.. he tried to lobby for the Mazoon's position.. and that once STS was gone, he would easily control the Dawat by controlling SMB (which he did anyways) ... even the appointment of SKQ as Mazoon was something the Ustaad's pushed towards.. even though they were aware of how liberal minded he was ( much different from the Ustaads themselves) but he was still a better option than YN.. on that very document is the Nass of SMB AND mention of SKQ as next Mazoon thus cutting out YN all together from the picture...

There is also rumor that STS was poisoned by YN which caused his death.. but I am not thoroughly convinced about this because the people who have mentioned it to me have a personal grudge against the family and are not only enemies of the family but the ruthbah of Dai as well...

As of today, the dawat is held hostage by two people. Badrul Jamali and Saeed Al Khair - the two sons of YN.. who have now even managed to sideline their very powerful cousin, Quaid Johar ibn SMB and given him the cursed seat of the Mukasir ud Dawa... if i were to predict what will happen based on the power dynamics I have witnessed... there will be another internal struggle between the two sons of SMS, Jafar Us Sadiq Bs and Hussain Bs ... which will be an opening for STF to make his mark... l
Last edited by kseeker on Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

kseeker
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#42

Unread post by kseeker » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:54 am

Adam - you mention:
Oh wait, I almost forgot. KQ actually objected to Syedna Mohammed's Burhanuddin's decision of removing these 4 Ustaads.
I have personally not heard about this but I have heard about SKQ asking SMB to handling many other bara'at situations (there have been very many of these) in a more light handed, diplomatic and smart manner to which SMB just said " I agree with your thoughts" and left it at that. Which I think means he is trying to imply that he did not get to do everything his way.... so it could be possible that he was not in favour of the way the situation was handled....

I was very young when I met - well I did not interact directly - but I was in a conversation where SKQ was present. He was indeed charming, friendly and did not have his head stuck up his ass..the couple of other people I was with mentioned afterwards how SKQ would be a decent Dai if/when he got the chance... how quickly things change with time.. it's both horrifying and beautiful.

In retrospect to all the messages I have written on this topic, A lot of it - or should I saw almost all of it is a result of recollection of events I have heard from people who were victims of this event AND of those who were with YN during that event... As a student of psychology, I can very confidently say that even though when sometimes people do not want to lie, their emotions around that memory cause them to alter it and change the way they recollect events....

If any of what I have said is untrue and if I have wrongly accused any person of something they did not do, I sincerely beg Allah for his forgiveness and I also beg those whom I have lied about for it.....

But If I use my judgement based on what I have PERSONALLY seen, heard and felt.... STS, SMB and SKQ/SMS cannot be true Dais.. they do not fit the criteria mentioned by Syedna Hatim RA by a long shot... whether the 47th Dai was a rightful one or not, I don't know.. and even though some say he was shrewd and others (like Biradar) says he was a kind a gentle person, I wasn't there to witness it so I cannot say if he was of right or not... but these three, who I have witnessed, are certainly not on the right path....

AbdeYamani
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#43

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:28 am

kseeker wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:20 am
Did the establishment act on information received from the students or was it just mere coincidence that these 4 gents were targetted.
It's a bit of both. I will share what I have learnt about the 4 Ustaads and the movement itself...

To answer your question, The 4 Ustaads (any many others in the Jamea at that time and very few even now) believed that there was no Nass after the 46th Dai and Syedna Yousuf Najmuddin was ELECTED as a Nazim...the agreement was that it will not be publicly announced that he is a Nazim.. if someone approaches to ask him if he is a Nazim or by Nass, he would tell honestly that he was a Nazim but they could not claim to be Dai Al Mutlaq....

STS was the first after the 47th to claim to be Dai Al Mutlaq... many people (who knew the truth) did not like this and were silenced by STS.. Even though shrewd and overtly ambitious, STS was a very learned person who respected Shk Sajjad Hussain Sarangpurwala (the first and most senior of these Ustaads) for his knowledge and especially for the fact that he did not rebel or cause one even though knowing the truth...

Now, on the other hand, Yousuf Najmuddin (son of STS) had a personal vendetta against the 4 ustaads. He really wanted the position of the Da'i and was lobbying as strong as he could.. STS did not want that and Sheikh Sajjad Hussain also recommended to STS to make SMB the Dai... SSH(Sheikh Sajjad Hussain) is one of the 7 witnesses of the Nass of STS to SMB... anyone in the 'royal' family who has access to such documents can verify that SSH and Sheikh Hasan Ali are both witnesses of the Nass... this is how close they were to STS...
Yousuf Najmuddin found out about this and there the animosity started...

to stop YN from whining, STS made him the rector of the Jamea... In his first year's tenure as a rector, he created the final examination for the most senior class, SSH pointed out some grammatical and syntax errors in his questions and sent them to STS... this really pissed of YN and was the turning point for him...in my opinion SSH should not have done that, maybe his actions might have been out of jealousy of not getting that post himself... whatever the reason, that move turned the tide in his direction... (side note: if you notice today, whenever the aamils abuse the 4 ustaads, they say that " these people were very arrogant and had a lot of ghamand about their mahaarat in arabic and now see what happened to them" ... this is what they are referring to)

Once STS died, there was no stopping YN.. he wanted complete control of the establishment and the people.. the only way to do so is to get rid of the learned...or at least subdue them to the extent where one is confident that they will not speak and use their knowledge to their benefit... YN did not act at first.. he waited to strengthen his base and allies in the jamea...

When Sheikh Hasan Ali went for Umrah, the aamil of Makkah at that time was accompanying him to the Kaaba.. at that location he asked him his true belief.. the sheikh found it difficult to lie at that place and moment and in weakness told openly what he believed... the Aamil conveyed this to YN and then the rest is history....not only did he get rid of the 4 ustaads, he used this as an excuse to get every book which would 'weaken' their claim or control out of the system and the jamea... they have raided houses of many aalims and jamea students and taken away all their books for them and told them to get raza from SMB and he will decide which books one should have...

There are many out there who believe that the 46th Dai was the last one.. but unlike others, they did not want to create a separate sect or establishment as they believed that history made it evident that whenever this happened, more people lost track than gained it... and as long as no Bida'a was being performed by SMB or any binding law in the Shari'a being changed or broken which could throw mumineen out of the circle of imaan, it was better to stay amongst them and silently educate people as to what is wrong and right... there are some very wealthy and influential people who are deep in the jamaat but still believe till 46 only...even in the Jameas, they are present but Biradar is right, there is no way an uprising will happen again from there... their view is to keep silent until the promised Hujjat comes calling towards the Imaam....

this is a website run by them:

Code: Select all

https://www.thebohras.com/
Many broken links and unorganized but some very useful info on there regarding our history and some good tidbits as well..It also has some audio lectures by Sheikh Ahmed Ali (the youngest of the Ustaads who passed away in Udaipur) ..some very interesting claims/info in there:
Aga Khani historian Farhad Daftry and Bohra Aalim Sheikh al Fazil Chand Khan Ji Rampura wala in their books have wrote that Imam-uz-zaman wrote letters to Sardar Najmuddin sahib (after the martyrdom of last 46th dai Syyedna Mohammad Badruddin a.q.) to hand the leadership of Dawat to Mazoon sahib Syyedi Jamaluddin sahib r.z. (who was mazoon of Shaheed Dai Mohammad Badruddin a.q.) .
Till this day, the 4 Ustaads are mentioned in bayaans and are cursed upon while many others who were bigger oppositions have been forgotten.. the reason, to my understanding, is that the believers till 46 chose not to break off and stay integrated and silently educate people... they have no option but the feed poison even 50 years after the incident to prevent people from converting.. they keep cursing but they never really say WHY were they removed and what they did... all they say is that the "napaak" would stop people from doing imaam hussain maatam... which well is true to the extent that they did not see the point of orchestrated chest thumping as a way to mourn the Ahle Bayt....

I found out quite more than a decade ago that YN had given an interview to DAWN news in the early 70s and unknowingly admitted that his father was a Dai Naazim and there was no Nass... when he realized this, he put in a lot of resources to get rid of them... I contacted Insaf Sahab (may he rest in peace) as to who he might know have it... he pointed me in a couple of directions but the people in question had passed away and their children.. lets say.. were not very friendly to my approach.. understandably so.. no one wants the wrath of the Kothar... I have also tried DAWN directly and certain resourced journalists but apparently the master copies of many papers of that period were destroyed in the early 2000s due to rain damage..

A lot of this info was gained from people in the Surat Jamea at that time, the Ustaads' peers and some of their family members

Dear Kseeker,

How did you manage to do all of this investigation without raising any red flags?

kseeker
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#44

Unread post by kseeker » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:03 am

AbdeYamani wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:28 am
kseeker wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:20 am

It's a bit of both. I will share what I have learnt about the 4 Ustaads and the movement itself...

To answer your question, The 4 Ustaads (any many others in the Jamea at that time and very few even now) believed that there was no Nass after the 46th Dai and Syedna Yousuf Najmuddin was ELECTED as a Nazim...the agreement was that it will not be publicly announced that he is a Nazim.. if someone approaches to ask him if he is a Nazim or by Nass, he would tell honestly that he was a Nazim but they could not claim to be Dai Al Mutlaq....

STS was the first after the 47th to claim to be Dai Al Mutlaq... many people (who knew the truth) did not like this and were silenced by STS.. Even though shrewd and overtly ambitious, STS was a very learned person who respected Shk Sajjad Hussain Sarangpurwala (the first and most senior of these Ustaads) for his knowledge and especially for the fact that he did not rebel or cause one even though knowing the truth...

Now, on the other hand, Yousuf Najmuddin (son of STS) had a personal vendetta against the 4 ustaads. He really wanted the position of the Da'i and was lobbying as strong as he could.. STS did not want that and Sheikh Sajjad Hussain also recommended to STS to make SMB the Dai... SSH(Sheikh Sajjad Hussain) is one of the 7 witnesses of the Nass of STS to SMB... anyone in the 'royal' family who has access to such documents can verify that SSH and Sheikh Hasan Ali are both witnesses of the Nass... this is how close they were to STS...
Yousuf Najmuddin found out about this and there the animosity started...

to stop YN from whining, STS made him the rector of the Jamea... In his first year's tenure as a rector, he created the final examination for the most senior class, SSH pointed out some grammatical and syntax errors in his questions and sent them to STS... this really pissed of YN and was the turning point for him...in my opinion SSH should not have done that, maybe his actions might have been out of jealousy of not getting that post himself... whatever the reason, that move turned the tide in his direction... (side note: if you notice today, whenever the aamils abuse the 4 ustaads, they say that " these people were very arrogant and had a lot of ghamand about their mahaarat in arabic and now see what happened to them" ... this is what they are referring to)

Once STS died, there was no stopping YN.. he wanted complete control of the establishment and the people.. the only way to do so is to get rid of the learned...or at least subdue them to the extent where one is confident that they will not speak and use their knowledge to their benefit... YN did not act at first.. he waited to strengthen his base and allies in the jamea...

When Sheikh Hasan Ali went for Umrah, the aamil of Makkah at that time was accompanying him to the Kaaba.. at that location he asked him his true belief.. the sheikh found it difficult to lie at that place and moment and in weakness told openly what he believed... the Aamil conveyed this to YN and then the rest is history....not only did he get rid of the 4 ustaads, he used this as an excuse to get every book which would 'weaken' their claim or control out of the system and the jamea... they have raided houses of many aalims and jamea students and taken away all their books for them and told them to get raza from SMB and he will decide which books one should have...

There are many out there who believe that the 46th Dai was the last one.. but unlike others, they did not want to create a separate sect or establishment as they believed that history made it evident that whenever this happened, more people lost track than gained it... and as long as no Bida'a was being performed by SMB or any binding law in the Shari'a being changed or broken which could throw mumineen out of the circle of imaan, it was better to stay amongst them and silently educate people as to what is wrong and right... there are some very wealthy and influential people who are deep in the jamaat but still believe till 46 only...even in the Jameas, they are present but Biradar is right, there is no way an uprising will happen again from there... their view is to keep silent until the promised Hujjat comes calling towards the Imaam....

this is a website run by them:

Code: Select all

https://www.thebohras.com/
Many broken links and unorganized but some very useful info on there regarding our history and some good tidbits as well..It also has some audio lectures by Sheikh Ahmed Ali (the youngest of the Ustaads who passed away in Udaipur) ..some very interesting claims/info in there:



Till this day, the 4 Ustaads are mentioned in bayaans and are cursed upon while many others who were bigger oppositions have been forgotten.. the reason, to my understanding, is that the believers till 46 chose not to break off and stay integrated and silently educate people... they have no option but the feed poison even 50 years after the incident to prevent people from converting.. they keep cursing but they never really say WHY were they removed and what they did... all they say is that the "napaak" would stop people from doing imaam hussain maatam... which well is true to the extent that they did not see the point of orchestrated chest thumping as a way to mourn the Ahle Bayt....

I found out quite more than a decade ago that YN had given an interview to DAWN news in the early 70s and unknowingly admitted that his father was a Dai Naazim and there was no Nass... when he realized this, he put in a lot of resources to get rid of them... I contacted Insaf Sahab (may he rest in peace) as to who he might know have it... he pointed me in a couple of directions but the people in question had passed away and their children.. lets say.. were not very friendly to my approach.. understandably so.. no one wants the wrath of the Kothar... I have also tried DAWN directly and certain resourced journalists but apparently the master copies of many papers of that period were destroyed in the early 2000s due to rain damage..

A lot of this info was gained from people in the Surat Jamea at that time, the Ustaads' peers and some of their family members

Dear Kseeker,

How did you manage to do all of this investigation without raising any red flags?
When you have been around for as long as I have, you will tend to find people easily who love to get things off their chest.

AbdeYamani
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#45

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:14 am

kseeker wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:03 am
AbdeYamani wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:28 am


Dear Kseeker,

How did you manage to do all of this investigation without raising any red flags?
When you have been around for as long as I have, you will tend to find people easily who love to get things off their chest.
If you don't mind me asking, when you clearly don't believe STS, SMB, SKQ as dai, what is your rationale behind supporting STF?

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#46

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:36 am

kseeker wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:54 am Adam - you mention:
Oh wait, I almost forgot. KQ actually objected to Syedna Mohammed's Burhanuddin's decision of removing these 4 Ustaads.
I have personally not heard about this but I have heard about SKQ asking SMB to handling many other bara'at situations (there have been very many of these) in a more light handed, diplomatic and smart manner to which SMB just said " I agree with your thoughts" and left it at that. Which I think means he is trying to imply that he did not get to do everything his way.... so it could be possible that he was not in favour of the way the situation was handled....

I was very young when I met - well I did not interact directly - but I was in a conversation where SKQ was present. He was indeed charming, friendly and did not have his head stuck up his ass..the couple of other people I was with mentioned afterwards how SKQ would be a decent Dai if/when he got the chance... how quickly things change with time.. it's both horrifying and beautiful.
...................
Can somebody please explain this in simple words? The #2 said it should be handled gently and #1 said he agrees. So what prevented them.

Anybody else who is in the way should be shown their place. What is there to debate? Unless the statements were incorrect or made but not actually implied?

I mean if SMB and his mazoon saw it was one way, who was preventing it from being executed?

And don't tell me about this Badrul Jamali and his brother. They derived all their power from SMB. SMB had god-like status in the community in the last 15-20 years of his life. One word from SMB and they would be nobody in the community. So what do I make out of this ?

AbdeYamani
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#47

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:48 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:36 am
kseeker wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:54 am Adam - you mention:



I have personally not heard about this but I have heard about SKQ asking SMB to handling many other bara'at situations (there have been very many of these) in a more light handed, diplomatic and smart manner to which SMB just said " I agree with your thoughts" and left it at that. Which I think means he is trying to imply that he did not get to do everything his way.... so it could be possible that he was not in favour of the way the situation was handled....

I was very young when I met - well I did not interact directly - but I was in a conversation where SKQ was present. He was indeed charming, friendly and did not have his head stuck up his ass..the couple of other people I was with mentioned afterwards how SKQ would be a decent Dai if/when he got the chance... how quickly things change with time.. it's both horrifying and beautiful.
...................
Can somebody please explain this in simple words? The #2 said it should be handled gently and #1 said he agrees. So what prevented them.

Anybody else who is in the way should be shown their place. What is there to debate? Unless the statements were incorrect or made but not actually implied?

I mean if SMB and his mazoon saw it was one way, who was preventing it from being executed?

And don't tell me about this Badrul Jamali and his brother. They derived all their power from SMB. SMB had god-like status in the community in the last 15-20 years of his life. One word from SMB and they would be nobody in the community. So what do I make out of this ?
Ideally, what you are saying is correct, Dai al Mutlaq is supposed to be the strongest in the Dawat administration.

This is only true if person in the position of Dai behaves and lives like one...

YN was the one running the Show, he coined new creed, got rid of all the resistance and setup policy and procedures that resulted in immense wealth and power, which was enjoyed by all in the Saifee Family including KQ.

Hence, his word was the last word on any critical issue.

kseeker
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#48

Unread post by kseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:12 pm

AbdeYamani wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:14 am
kseeker wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:03 am

When you have been around for as long as I have, you will tend to find people easily who love to get things off their chest.
If you don't mind me asking, when you clearly don't believe STS, SMB, SKQ as dai, what is your rationale behind supporting STF?
I do not 'support' STF.. I do not believe him to be a rightful Dai-ul-Mutliq.. I do however think he is the better person if he is compared with MS...

kseeker
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#49

Unread post by kseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:19 pm

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:36 am
kseeker wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:54 am Adam - you mention:



I have personally not heard about this but I have heard about SKQ asking SMB to handling many other bara'at situations (there have been very many of these) in a more light handed, diplomatic and smart manner to which SMB just said " I agree with your thoughts" and left it at that. Which I think means he is trying to imply that he did not get to do everything his way.... so it could be possible that he was not in favour of the way the situation was handled....

I was very young when I met - well I did not interact directly - but I was in a conversation where SKQ was present. He was indeed charming, friendly and did not have his head stuck up his ass..the couple of other people I was with mentioned afterwards how SKQ would be a decent Dai if/when he got the chance... how quickly things change with time.. it's both horrifying and beautiful.
...................
Can somebody please explain this in simple words? The #2 said it should be handled gently and #1 said he agrees. So what prevented them.

Anybody else who is in the way should be shown their place. What is there to debate? Unless the statements were incorrect or made but not actually implied?

I mean if SMB and his mazoon saw it was one way, who was preventing it from being executed?

And don't tell me about this Badrul Jamali and his brother. They derived all their power from SMB. SMB had god-like status in the community in the last 15-20 years of his life. One word from SMB and they would be nobody in the community. So what do I make out of this ?
YN prevented him. He was the one running the show. SMB was pretty much a puppet in my opinion. Either he turned a blind eye to everything going on around him or he had just given up to the Kothar, He did not have much administrative authority. YN and his sons decided which Aamil got posted where, they managed all funds and all the news and information given to the masses.
This was a pretty new thing for SMB also because as far as I know, the conversion of our faith from just a faith to an industry started to happen during STS time and went into boost mode when YN got authority. Before that, Dais would not function like this. the 49th Dai was very poor. STS himself was brought up in a very poor household. I think he was heavily inspired by Aga Khan..

AbdeYamani
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#50

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:41 pm

kseeker wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:19 pm
dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:36 am

Can somebody please explain this in simple words? The #2 said it should be handled gently and #1 said he agrees. So what prevented them.

Anybody else who is in the way should be shown their place. What is there to debate? Unless the statements were incorrect or made but not actually implied?

I mean if SMB and his mazoon saw it was one way, who was preventing it from being executed?

And don't tell me about this Badrul Jamali and his brother. They derived all their power from SMB. SMB had god-like status in the community in the last 15-20 years of his life. One word from SMB and they would be nobody in the community. So what do I make out of this ?
YN prevented him. He was the one running the show. SMB was pretty much a puppet in my opinion. Either he turned a blind eye to everything going on around him or he had just given up to the Kothar, He did not have much administrative authority. YN and his sons decided which Aamil got posted where, they managed all funds and all the news and information given to the masses.
This was a pretty new thing for SMB also because as far as I know, the conversion of our faith from just a faith to an industry started to happen during STS time and went into boost mode when YN got authority. Before that, Dais would not function like this. the 49th Dai was very poor. STS himself was brought up in a very poor household. I think he was heavily inspired by Aga Khan..
For YN Agakhan was an Ideal he use to admire him a lot, not only that the famous case of Chandabhoy gulla case and claims made by STS has its root in a court case that was fought by AgaKhan against Kacchi Jamaat in Mumbai..

They copy and adopt AgaKhani policies when it comes to glorification and control but not when it comes to accountability and welfare...

Shabab
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#51

Unread post by Shabab » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:57 pm

SMB bayan doesnt looks like that he was that innocent or was a pupet he was very well aware of everything going. except for the last 5 years of his life.

Shabab
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#52

Unread post by Shabab » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:58 am

Blaming on YN to save Burhanuddin while the truth is that YN was already dead by 1987,,,,,way way long before every thing got wrong in present dawat.



https://jameasaifiyah.edu/philosophy-hi ... muddin-qr/

AbdeYamani
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#53

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:58 am

Shabab wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:58 am Blaming on YN to save Burhanuddin while the truth is that YN was already dead by 1987,,,,,way way long before every thing got wrong in present dawat.



https://jameasaifiyah.edu/philosophy-hi ... muddin-qr/
YN is like Jimmy Carter in the history of Dawat, He laid the foundation of everything that followed.

AbdeYamani
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#54

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:59 am

That ofcourse does not absolve other's of their misdeeds.

Shabab
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:11 am

Re: The 4 Ustaads of Jamia

#55

Unread post by Shabab » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:06 am

what I understand about YN is that he was fanatic he had very staunch belief and he was kind of extremist, for him in order to save dai and his interest he could do anything even if it goes against the basic Islamic or human principles.

for him, his master and his own interest came first and for it he made it halaal to lie or even suppress the Quran and its lessons.