Need of Dawoodi Bohra Spring

[Rashida Behnsaheba]

Those Dawoodi Bohra's generally tagged as fanatics by the self-proclaimed progressives/liberals/reformists are actually just practicing the faith taught to them to the best of their ability. They are not responsible for the current state they are in. They are just victims of systematic Tahreef (perverting) & Tabdeel (Transformation) by the last few holders of the office of Dai al Mutlaq and the greedy mullas who served them.

Those who knew the truth were either coerced into submission or tortured and killed.

Today, most of the books of Ismail Mustali Taiyyebi school that would expose the lies of the current ruling dispensation are locked up in "Dawat Khazana" and no one except the family members of the ruling family of the Dai have access to those books. Other than them the Lawyers and some Ulemas get need on basis access to these resources.

I call upon, learned members on this Forum like, Nafisa, Biradar, Ghulam Mohammed, Kseeker etc to help in exposing and refuting those Dogmas propagated by the machinery of both *SMS & STF*; offshoots of *STS & Co* that are used by them to keep the regular Bohra under their control.

After reading various submissions by you guys, I am sure that you people have access to most of the books that are now beyond the reach of masses.

I think the best way to do this would be by first drafting the root creeds Aqaid disseminated by the ruling class and then refuting them one by one by references from the Dawat books itself, also it would help if the contributor can highlight the timeline of when and who introduced/modified a particular dogma, it's context, who invented it and what was the objective behind it.

Reason behind this request is that, only hope of ever reaching and enlightening a regular Ismaili Tayyebi Muslim for their Islah is if we can present them true religion through the books written by previous Dais and Awliya, otherwise we will be considered as just another *Dawat na Dushman* doing *Fitna*.

Perhaps these shameless will see that what we are saying is supported by the primary sources of Islam and Ismaili literature and practice of past Duaat then they might considering thinking about what is being presented to them.

[RedBox]

there wont be any bohra spring,,,,, not in near future....people have too much self interest right now to be in DB fold. and kothar knows it well.

[RedBox]

Taheri fitna will die by itself ....

[SBM]

Sr Rashida
Here is the link
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/reform_is ... iterature/

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Sr Rashida
Here is the link
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/reform_is ... iterature/

I don't think this is relevant.

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

there wont be any bohra spring,,,,, not in near future....people have too much self interest right now to be in DB fold. and kothar knows it well.

I agree, but I think what can work is a "Non-cooperation movement." If through this post all the lies of the current leadership can be exposed using references from the Dawat books. Then it will definitely force even die hard fanatics to think and reflect over what is happening.

Also, if Kothari's are monitoring this website, they might start doing something good in fear of retaliation.

Good initiave ben Rashida, I hope others learned members on this forum will support your initiative.

[Mkenya]

Bohra Spring?! What a sick joke.

[Humsafar]

Bohra Spring started in Udaipur almost 50 years ago. And it seems the Bohras are still slumbering, and the partisan ones (those who have a stake in one fake Dai or the other) are fighting like cats and dogs to prove their point

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Bohra Spring started in Udaipur almost 50 years ago. And it seems the Bohras are still slumbering, and the partisan ones (those who have a stake in one fake Dai or the other) are fighting like cats and dogs to prove their point

What happened Udaipur was a movement with no soul, if Youth had followed the guidance of Sheikh Ahmed Ali and given him due respect instead of Maloon Engineer then today they could have stood as a good example for those who want to practise faith at the same time not get exploited by the kotharis...

[SBM]

Sk Sajjad Hussain
You already exposed your true face by using the same verbiage used by Kothari Goons regarding Late Asgharali Engineer
Seems like you are another Kothari Plant on this forum

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Great Logic, Aristotle would be so proud of you.

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Anyways, I think two most power weapon of the Saify Mahal Empire are Claim of Infallibility for a Dai and Raza System.

Can someone refute these two concepts through references from books and examples of Previous Dua'ts

[Humsafar]

Sk Sajjad Hussain
You already exposed your true face by using the same verbiage used by Kothari Goons regarding Late Asgharali Engineer
Seems like you are another Kothari Plant on this forum

Not a Kothari plant, but late Sheikh Saheb's mureed and we have seen the likes of him here before, remember Mubarak, Doctor etc.? Best to leave him alone.

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Listen, I get it, both of you are old timers here...But you do not own this space and cannot bully me into not expressing my views and opinions. I don't know the reasons for your love for Maloon Asghar... honestly I do not care, please don't go off-track. you can start a new topic if you want to express your love and admiration for the accursed Engineer.



This is not about individuals, I believe the reason why most of the Dawoodi-Bohra's don't have any inclination for doing anything about the way things are is because there are no good alternate systems/examples set for them.

Deen in its purest form needs no reform and is for progress in all dimensions of life.

I agree with RashidaBs that Most of the SMS followers are good people trying to follow the deen(altered/perverted) as taught to them, and I think she is correct in pointing out that people will be forced to think if current practices can be challenged using books and examples of previous Dua'ts.

[Humsafar]

Listen, I get it, both of you are old timers here...But you do not own this space and cannot bully me into not expressing my views and opinions. I don't know the reasons for your love for Maloon Asghar... honestly I do not care, please don't go off-track. you can start a new topic if you want to express your love and admiration for the accursed Engineer.

It is you who went off track with your cruses. And it is you who is expressing your love and admiration for your beloved Sheikh Saheb.

Not sure why you're back here, didn't you guys start your own website to spread your "purest deen"? Didn't find any takers?

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Do you not curse those who are enemies of Ahl Al bayt? I thought even so called progressives/reformists were Mohibeens of Ahl Al Bayt(swa)

Maloon Asghar... There I said it again... What you gonna do about it old man?

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

And I think you are a plant kothari agent, who is apparently seems like a reformist/progressive.
But what you really do is trolling on payroll of Kothar.

Kothar pays you to bully and ridicule people who seek change but do not confirm to so called Modern/liberal/progressive values.

Because, it's not people like you who are real threat to the Kotharis but people like us, who want to follow and practise the Fatemi Aqeeda in its purest form.

[Humsafar]

Dear Sajjad Saheb, I'm not here to prove my credentials to you or anyone else. You're welcome to curse anyone you like to your heart's content. If that is what your "purest deen" teaches you to do then who am I to say or do anything.
Glad to know that the Kothar is afraid of you, we need more like you. Hope you're doing something about toppling the Kothar other than coming to this forum and hyperventilating! Good luck!

[SBM]

Because, it's not people like you who are real threat to the Kotharis but people like us, who want to follow and practise the Fatemi Aqeeda in its purest form.

So if you are so strong that Kothar is afraid of you, why are you then hiding your identity and coming on this forum with FAKE Ids.

[kseeker]

I do not believe that trying to discredit people like TS MB and MS or collecting books and documents against them or proving the lack of a nass will help with anything. If anything, they will get a new villan to boo at and show the world how jealous others are of them which will fuel the love of their loyalists even more...

Lets say even if you bring to light irrefutable evidence, people will not necessarily believe you.. that is the problem with faith (all faiths for that matter - the system of belief without proof is a dangerous one.. it makes proof meaningless at times)

The best way to 'hurt' them is by empowering people.. and the only way you can empower people is by educating them.. People do not need to know every tawil or haqiqat to get empowered.. all they need to know are the basics of our faith.. enough to not need any mullah aamil or bhai sahab for anything..that you dont need 'raza' for everything.. people not needing them will hurt them more than anything you could possibly imagine.. and I don't recommend educating people just to hurt someone, it is mainly to make them able...

like the old chinese saying goes.." you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day.. you teach him how to fish, you feed him for life"...

In my opinion, What this group and its admin should work towards is making the Daim Ul Islam more readily and cost effectively available in physical and electronic versions...in languages such as English, Urdu, Gujrati and Hindi.. yes, these are all out there.. but are very spread out, there is no proper distribution or channeled availability...

following is the link of the Daim ul Islam I read in English a while ago.. it's a brilliant translation which could make a big difference for the youth... I am sure you can get this on amazon india for a much cheaper price.... there is a PART 2 of this book as well but this is the main one....

Code: Select all

https://www.amazon.com/Pillars-Ismail-Kurban-Husein-Poonawala/dp/0195655354/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=pillars+of+islam+poonawala&qid=1591280788&sr=8-2

Moreover, I also believe the admins on this forum should create a separate section for the Daim Ul Islam's topics.. where people can ask questions and only few (chosen by the admin on basis of merit and can afford to dedicate time) are allowed to respond. that place should be void of name calling, senseless discussions, dissing or pissing contests... it will attract a whole new breed of people.. I am also aware that this place has tonnes of info, enough for a lifetime maybe, but it is all spread out.. people like Porous have left some proper jewels here and there....

Educating people will also remove the longstanding senseless fear of needing a 'proper' burial to get to heaven... you break that chord and the music will stop...

[Humsafar]

Agree with you Kseeker. But "educating" Bohras is a tall order. An individual here and there might see the light, like "awakendsoul" (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11489), but for a real change to take place we need a mass awakening and that I'm afraid is not possible, at least not in the foreseeable future. The Bohra masses do not want to be "educated", they are happy living in their closed tribal communities steeped in primitive beliefs fed to them daily by the mafia clergy.
For more than a generation we've been trying to bring the water to the horse but he just refuses to drink.

[james]

the partisan ones (those who have a stake in one fake Dai or the other)

Not a Kothari plant, but late Sheikh Saheb's mureed and we have seen the likes of him here before, remember Mubarak, Doctor etc.? Best to leave him alone.

Oh how the tables have turned and so early in the thread.


There's a whole section saying the choicest words for Engineer on their website.

[james]

I do not believe that trying to discredit people like TS MB and MS or collecting books and documents against them or proving the lack of a nass will help with anything. If anything, they will get a new villan to boo at and show the world how jealous others are of them which will fuel the love of their loyalists even more...

Oh get off your high horse now.

Has anyone else also heard that SMS has internally announced his son, Hussain Bs Burhanuddin as his successor? "Apparently", all the formalities have been done but has been kept silent from the public and will be announced at an opportune moment...

Can anyone confirm this?

What is called Arab numerals as the world knows it, was invented in India. Arabs learnt it from us and took it across & Europeans learnt from them & called it Arab numerals. There are many other examples.

Again you used Arabs & Muslims in the same breath. Let use an example of APJ Abdul Kalam. Indian,patriot,great scientist. Get over the Arab thing. You can be a Muslim without having to ape Arabs

Can smell that cow dung and urine on you from all the way here... I am sure you got it's freshest batch of excretion early in the morning.. can be the only explanation for your Arnab Goswami style intellect and knowledge...

And listen if you are going to come back with insults,I would like it to be original and I like horses. (Just a suggestion)

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Dear Sajjad Saheb, I'm not here to prove my credentials to you or anyone else. You're welcome to curse anyone you like to your heart's content. If that is what your "purest deen" teaches you to do then who am I to say or do anything.
Glad to know that the Kothar is afraid of you, we need more like you. Hope you're doing something about toppling the Kothar other than coming to this forum and hyperventilating! Good luck!

"Dear Sajjad Saheb, I'm not here to prove my credentials to you or anyone else"

Right, you are here to troll, bully, ridicule, and look down upon whoever disagrees with your PoV.

"You're welcome to curse anyone you like to your heart's content. If that is what your "purest deen" teaches you to do then who am I to say or do anything."

I was not cursing anyone like a insane brute but a confirmed enemy of Ahl al Bayt and Islam, if you have a soft corner for him, and yes as per my aqeeda like any other shia muslim, enemies of Islam and Ahl al bayt are accursed.

"Glad to know that the Kothar is afraid of you, we need more like you. Hope you're doing something about toppling the Kothar other than coming to this forum and hyperventilating! Good luck!"

Are you done being a smug or there is still some left for me? Thanks for letting everyone know your opinion about the effectiveness of this Forum and positive contribution on it. you have just convinced me even more that you are a paid impostor working on Kothar's payroll.

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Because, it's not people like you who are real threat to the Kotharis but people like us, who want to follow and practise the Fatemi Aqeeda in its purest form.

So if you are so strong that Kothar is afraid of you, why are you then hiding your identity and coming on this forum with FAKE Ids.

Same reason as everyone else, Kothar is not some local goon. It is a very powerful and sophisticated mega corp.
They will obliterate me and my whole family in matter of seconds.

If there would have been scope of openly expressing our opinion without fear of violent backlash, then why in the world this forum would have been created?

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

I do not believe that trying to discredit people like TS MB and MS or collecting books and documents against them or proving the lack of a nass will help with anything. If anything, they will get a new villan to boo at and show the world how jealous others are of them which will fuel the love of their loyalists even more...

Lets say even if you bring to light irrefutable evidence, people will not necessarily believe you.. that is the problem with faith (all faiths for that matter - the system of belief without proof is a dangerous one.. it makes proof meaningless at times)

The best way to 'hurt' them is by empowering people.. and the only way you can empower people is by educating them.. People do not need to know every tawil or haqiqat to get empowered.. all they need to know are the basics of our faith.. enough to not need any mullah aamil or bhai sahab for anything..that you dont need 'raza' for everything.. people not needing them will hurt them more than anything you could possibly imagine.. and I don't recommend educating people just to hurt someone, it is mainly to make them able...

like the old chinese saying goes.." you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day.. you teach him how to fish, you feed him for life"...

In my opinion, What this group and its admin should work towards is making the Daim Ul Islam more readily and cost effectively available in physical and electronic versions...in languages such as English, Urdu, Gujrati and Hindi.. yes, these are all out there.. but are very spread out, there is no proper distribution or channeled availability...

following is the link of the Daim ul Islam I read in English a while ago.. it's a brilliant translation which could make a big difference for the youth... I am sure you can get this on amazon india for a much cheaper price.... there is a PART 2 of this book as well but this is the main one....

Code: Select all

https://www.amazon.com/Pillars-Ismail-Kurban-Husein-Poonawala/dp/0195655354/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=pillars+of+islam+poonawala&qid=1591280788&sr=8-2

Moreover, I also believe the admins on this forum should create a separate section for the Daim Ul Islam's topics.. where people can ask questions and only few (chosen by the admin on basis of merit and can afford to dedicate time) are allowed to respond. that place should be void of name calling, senseless discussions, dissing or pissing contests... it will attract a whole new breed of people.. I am also aware that this place has tonnes of info, enough for a lifetime maybe, but it is all spread out.. people like Porous have left some proper jewels here and there....

Educating people will also remove the longstanding senseless fear of needing a 'proper' burial to get to heaven... you break that chord and the music will stop...

Finally a good post, I am working on digitizing the english copy of Daim al Islam by Poonawala, hope to share it on this Forum asap.

Yes, about the Raza system, when did this start? does it have any religious validity? can you refute it citing authetic dawat books?

also, I don't think Rashida is asking about getting into discussion of inqita of Nass, but rather infallibility of Dai even if he is nominated as per proper Nass, and his exact position and powers in Dawat Hierarchy in daur al satr.

[kseeker]

Agree with you Kseeker. But "educating" Bohras is a tall order. An individual here and there might see the light, like "awakendsoul" (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11489), but for a real change to take place we need a mass awakening and that I'm afraid is not possible, at least not in the foreseeable future. The Bohra masses do not want to be "educated", they are happy living in their closed tribal communities steeped in primitive beliefs fed to them daily by the mafia clergy.
For more than a generation we've been trying to bring the water to the horse but he just refuses to drink.

Its great to see that someone is trying to make the horse drink the water.. but may I ask how this is being done? what methods and resources have been used?
there are so many out there who don't even know that there is an english version of the book out there...if they would, they would surely read it..
I do agree that sometimes it is next to impossible to make an ostrich with it's head in the sand see the light of day... but a more systematic approach is required to make a bigger dent..

[kseeker]

I do not believe that trying to discredit people like TS MB and MS or collecting books and documents against them or proving the lack of a nass will help with anything. If anything, they will get a new villan to boo at and show the world how jealous others are of them which will fuel the love of their loyalists even more...

Oh get off your high horse now.

Has anyone else also heard that SMS has internally announced his son, Hussain Bs Burhanuddin as his successor? "Apparently", all the formalities have been done but has been kept silent from the public and will be announced at an opportune moment...

Can anyone confirm this?

Can smell that cow dung and urine on you from all the way here... I am sure you got it's freshest batch of excretion early in the morning.. can be the only explanation for your Arnab Goswami style intellect and knowledge...

And listen if you are going to come back with insults,I would like it to be original and I like horses. (Just a suggestion)

I honestly cannot see what high horse you are talking about...
Do i call out a crook when I see one? yes.. Do I like to keep myself updated on what is happening in the Dawoodi Bohra community? yes... Do I call out MS for the donkey he is? yes.... but this is done on a personal level.. to share what I think.. not with the intention to liberate the bohra community from their clutches.... for that (to convince people that they are wrong) different actions have to be taken..

[kseeker]

I do not believe that trying to discredit people like TS MB and MS or collecting books and documents against them or proving the lack of a nass will help with anything. If anything, they will get a new villan to boo at and show the world how jealous others are of them which will fuel the love of their loyalists even more...

Lets say even if you bring to light irrefutable evidence, people will not necessarily believe you.. that is the problem with faith (all faiths for that matter - the system of belief without proof is a dangerous one.. it makes proof meaningless at times)

The best way to 'hurt' them is by empowering people.. and the only way you can empower people is by educating them.. People do not need to know every tawil or haqiqat to get empowered.. all they need to know are the basics of our faith.. enough to not need any mullah aamil or bhai sahab for anything..that you dont need 'raza' for everything.. people not needing them will hurt them more than anything you could possibly imagine.. and I don't recommend educating people just to hurt someone, it is mainly to make them able...

like the old chinese saying goes.." you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day.. you teach him how to fish, you feed him for life"...

In my opinion, What this group and its admin should work towards is making the Daim Ul Islam more readily and cost effectively available in physical and electronic versions...in languages such as English, Urdu, Gujrati and Hindi.. yes, these are all out there.. but are very spread out, there is no proper distribution or channeled availability...

following is the link of the Daim ul Islam I read in English a while ago.. it's a brilliant translation which could make a big difference for the youth... I am sure you can get this on amazon india for a much cheaper price.... there is a PART 2 of this book as well but this is the main one....

Code: Select all

https://www.amazon.com/Pillars-Ismail-Kurban-Husein-Poonawala/dp/0195655354/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=pillars+of+islam+poonawala&qid=1591280788&sr=8-2

Moreover, I also believe the admins on this forum should create a separate section for the Daim Ul Islam's topics.. where people can ask questions and only few (chosen by the admin on basis of merit and can afford to dedicate time) are allowed to respond. that place should be void of name calling, senseless discussions, dissing or pissing contests... it will attract a whole new breed of people.. I am also aware that this place has tonnes of info, enough for a lifetime maybe, but it is all spread out.. people like Porous have left some proper jewels here and there....

Educating people will also remove the longstanding senseless fear of needing a 'proper' burial to get to heaven... you break that chord and the music will stop...

Finally a good post, I am working on digitizing the english copy of Daim al Islam by Poonawala, hope to share it on this Forum asap.

Yes, about the Raza system, when did this start? does it have any religious validity? can you refute it citing authetic dawat books?

also, I don't think Rashida is asking about getting into discussion of inqita of Nass, but rather infallibility of Dai even if he is nominated as per proper Nass, and his exact position and powers in Dawat Hierarchy in daur al satr.

It's great to hear an electronic copy is being worked upon but I hope you don't end up infringing someone's royalty or copyrights by doing so....
As per my understanding, the raza system has indeed existed since the time of Prophet Muhammad.. however, the degree to which this power and authority has been abused and has been started to be applied on things which should not require a raza and only done to extend their control over people is a different topic...

Infallibility is defined as the inability to be wrong... I believe that a RIGHTLY CHOSEN DAI will ofcourse have flaws as a human being, have personal flaws, make wrong decisions but should be extremely sound and almost infallible when it comes to matters of the faith.. because if you question his faith and his ability to lead, you are questioning the imaam and his choice.. subjects or people under a dai (where there is no question or doubt on his nass) have to be obedient to him and accept his decisions, even if they don't agree to it... because by going against a RIGHTFULLY APPOINTED DAI, you are going against the Imam...

As to the last part of your question, I am not aware of any source of information which states the exact authority a Dai has.. I do however have heard from multiple sources that a Dai cannot change a pillar or tenant of the faith and cannot call for Jihad either...

[Humsafar]

There's a whole section saying the choicest words for Engineer on their website.

Yup, this is a testimony to the teachings of "purest deen" and, of course, to the vile tongue of your master Mufaddal Saifuddin. You should be proud of yourself.

It is also a testimony to the openness of this website/forum which allows free expression and exchange of ideas, including especially the abuse that you spew at us. But then I would not expect the likes of you to appreciate such freedoms.