Need of Dawoodi Bohra Spring

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

@Humsafar & SMB,

I apologize to you and anyone else who is and might be offended by my personal opinion about Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer.

I can see that both of you have been contributing on this forum since many years, and acknowledge your resolve to stick around and try to enlighten people in the way you see fit.

There are all kind of people on this Forum, and personal views of individuals should not affect the efforts to enlighten those who seek it.

to not let this thread go off-track, I apologise to both of you and anyone else who might be offended by my words.

and I hope that you both will consider contributing on this thread with your valuable suggestions and comments.

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Finally a good post, I am working on digitizing the english copy of Daim al Islam by Poonawala, hope to share it on this Forum asap.

Yes, about the Raza system, when did this start? does it have any religious validity? can you refute it citing authetic dawat books?

also, I don't think Rashida is asking about getting into discussion of inqita of Nass, but rather infallibility of Dai even if he is nominated as per proper Nass, and his exact position and powers in Dawat Hierarchy in daur al satr.

It's great to hear an electronic copy is being worked upon but I hope you don't end up infringing someone's royalty or copyrights by doing so....
As per my understanding, the raza system has indeed existed since the time of Prophet Muhammad.. however, the degree to which this power and authority has been abused and has been started to be applied on things which should not require a raza and only done to extend their control over people is a different topic...

Infallibility is defined as the inability to be wrong... I believe that a RIGHTLY CHOSEN DAI will ofcourse have flaws as a human being, have personal flaws, make wrong decisions but should be extremely sound and almost infallible when it comes to matters of the faith.. because if you question his faith and his ability to lead, you are questioning the imaam and his choice.. subjects or people under a dai (where there is no question or doubt on his nass) have to be obedient to him and accept his decisions, even if they don't agree to it... because by going against a RIGHTFULLY APPOINTED DAI, you are going against the Imam...

As to the last part of your question, I am not aware of any source of information which states the exact authority a Dai has.. I do however have heard from multiple sources that a Dai cannot change a pillar or tenant of the faith and cannot call for Jihad either...

It's great to hear an electronic copy is being worked upon but I hope you don't end up infringing someone's royalty or copyrights by doing so...

There is no escape from that, but I hope for greater good the publishers and the Author will forgive me.

"Infallibility is defined as the inability to be wrong... I believe that a RIGHTLY CHOSEN DAI will ofcourse have flaws as a human being, have personal flaws, make wrong decisions but should be extremely sound and almost infallible when it comes to matters of the faith.. because if you question his faith and his ability to lead, you are questioning the imaam and his choice.. subjects or people under a dai (where there is no question or doubt on his nass) have to be obedient to him and accept his decisions, even if they don't agree to it... because by going against a RIGHTFULLY APPOINTED DAI, you are going against the Imam..."

But then, does faith not encompass every aspect of our life?

and who in your opinion is the rightfully appointed Dai?

and what should one do if he has aqeeda of inqeta an nass?

Also, I personally think that questioning the nominated hudud by Imam(as) is not questioning Imam(as) himself.

There are many examples where in People of much higher rank then Dai al Mutlaq have gone astray, that does not effect the Ismat of Imam(as) in anyway for Eg: Abdul Majid was nominated as Wali Ahd al Muslimeen and Haifz of Daulat and Qasr Fatimiya, but he claimed Imamat later on, and Moulatona Hurrat al Maleka who was at rank lower then him, reprimanded him and did baraat from him, also, Can Error by Caliph of Allah i:e Adam (as) be attributed to Allah ta Aala? Ma'Aa Zallah.


Only Entity with Complete Ismat is Mustaqar Imam(as) and His Successor Mustaqar Imam(as)

[Humsafar]

@Humsafar & SMB,

I apologize to you and anyone else who is and might be offended by my personal opinion about Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer.

I can see that both of you have been contributing on this forum since many years, and acknowledge your resolve to stick around and try to enlighten people in the way you see fit.

There are all kind of people on this Forum, and personal views of individuals should not affect the efforts to enlighten those who seek it.

to not let this thread go off-track, I apologise to both of you and anyone else who might be offended by my words.

and I hope that you both will consider contributing on this thread with your valuable suggestions and comments.

Apology accepted.

[kseeker]

As per my understanding, the raza system has indeed existed since the time of Prophet Muhammad.. however, the degree to which this power and authority has been abused and has been started to be applied on things which should not require a raza and only done to extend their control over people is a different topic...

Infallibility is defined as the inability to be wrong... I believe that a RIGHTLY CHOSEN DAI will ofcourse have flaws as a human being, have personal flaws, make wrong decisions but should be extremely sound and almost infallible when it comes to matters of the faith.. because if you question his faith and his ability to lead, you are questioning the imaam and his choice.. subjects or people under a dai (where there is no question or doubt on his nass) have to be obedient to him and accept his decisions, even if they don't agree to it... because by going against a RIGHTFULLY APPOINTED DAI, you are going against the Imam...

As to the last part of your question, I am not aware of any source of information which states the exact authority a Dai has.. I do however have heard from multiple sources that a Dai cannot change a pillar or tenant of the faith and cannot call for Jihad either...

It's great to hear an electronic copy is being worked upon but I hope you don't end up infringing someone's royalty or copyrights by doing so...

There is no escape from that, but I hope for greater good the publishers and the Author will forgive me.

"Infallibility is defined as the inability to be wrong... I believe that a RIGHTLY CHOSEN DAI will ofcourse have flaws as a human being, have personal flaws, make wrong decisions but should be extremely sound and almost infallible when it comes to matters of the faith.. because if you question his faith and his ability to lead, you are questioning the imaam and his choice.. subjects or people under a dai (where there is no question or doubt on his nass) have to be obedient to him and accept his decisions, even if they don't agree to it... because by going against a RIGHTFULLY APPOINTED DAI, you are going against the Imam..."

But then, does faith not encompass every aspect of our life?

and who in your opinion is the rightfully appointed Dai?

and what should one do if he has aqeeda of inqeta an nass?

Also, I personally think that questioning the nominated hudud by Imam(as) is not questioning Imam(as) himself.

There are many examples where in People of much higher rank then Dai al Mutlaq have gone astray, that does not effect the Ismat of Imam(as) in anyway for Eg: Abdul Majid was nominated as Wali Ahd al Muslimeen and Haifz of Daulat and Qasr Fatimiya, but he claimed Imamat later on, and Moulatona Hurrat al Maleka who was at rank lower then him, reprimanded him and did baraat from him, also, Can Error by Caliph of Allah i:e Adam (as) be attributed to Allah ta Aala? Ma'Aa Zallah.


Only Entity with Complete Ismat is Mustaqar Imam(as) and His Successor Mustaqar Imam(as)

There is no escape from that, but I hope for greater good the publishers and the Author will forgive me.

There is an escape from it.. don't copy his book.. translate it yourself or hire/contract someone to do so.. what you are saying is " I have no option but to rob someones house.. I hope he can forgive me"...
You could alternatively ask the publisher to make it available for free... what you are suggesting is nothing short of stealing...


But then, does faith not encompass every aspect of our life?
It does.. but if any aspect requires raza or permission by a higher authority, it is not a compulsory act... you don't need raza to pray.. you don't need raza to fast.. you don't need raza for hajj...


and who in your opinion is the rightfully appointed Dai?
I honestly do not know.. I just know that TS, MB or MS are not the rightful ones. Maybe the rightful one also has gone into a sort of parda with just a small community around him.. or maybe the line has ended... as per our doctrines, both are indication of the 7th naatiq to come...

and what should one do if he has aqeeda of inqeta an nass?
In this case, the logical thing I can think of is to make iqraar of the last person who you think is rightful leader and then say that I don't know who the next rightful person is.. rather than saying it has ended or to follow someone who you have doubts of being a rightful successor..


Also, I personally think that questioning the nominated hudud by Imam(as) is not questioning Imam(as) himself.

I can give you a bigger example.. Abu Bakr was supposedly a Hujjat of Rasulallah.. that makes him pretty up there.. and yet he was the first usurper... one cannot say "ohh if he someone of a higher rank can be wrong then why can't he?".. these ranks are not like military ranking... also, this age is very different from the one in which the Imaam was present.. the value of a rightful dai is much more today than when the imaam was present.. he represents the imaam..can he make mistakes? yes.. i have said it before, it is ofcourse possible.. but it is not for the people to decide that.. it is for the imaam to decide that.. The Ismaili-Tayyabi-Dawoodi faith is not a democracy.. there is no room for supervisors, police or a parliment to keep the president or prime minister in check..this is an authoritarian structure..

in the case, where there is evidence against a dai of mutiny or bidaat or going against the faith or where one has wrongfully claimed authority or power, you can disown him and say this person is not the right Dai... but you cannot at one hand say he is the right dai and on the other hand monitor and judge him and his actions..that is not your or my place to do so....

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

It's great to hear an electronic copy is being worked upon but I hope you don't end up infringing someone's royalty or copyrights by doing so...

There is no escape from that, but I hope for greater good the publishers and the Author will forgive me.

"Infallibility is defined as the inability to be wrong... I believe that a RIGHTLY CHOSEN DAI will ofcourse have flaws as a human being, have personal flaws, make wrong decisions but should be extremely sound and almost infallible when it comes to matters of the faith.. because if you question his faith and his ability to lead, you are questioning the imaam and his choice.. subjects or people under a dai (where there is no question or doubt on his nass) have to be obedient to him and accept his decisions, even if they don't agree to it... because by going against a RIGHTFULLY APPOINTED DAI, you are going against the Imam..."

But then, does faith not encompass every aspect of our life?

and who in your opinion is the rightfully appointed Dai?

and what should one do if he has aqeeda of inqeta an nass?

Also, I personally think that questioning the nominated hudud by Imam(as) is not questioning Imam(as) himself.

There are many examples where in People of much higher rank then Dai al Mutlaq have gone astray, that does not effect the Ismat of Imam(as) in anyway for Eg: Abdul Majid was nominated as Wali Ahd al Muslimeen and Haifz of Daulat and Qasr Fatimiya, but he claimed Imamat later on, and Moulatona Hurrat al Maleka who was at rank lower then him, reprimanded him and did baraat from him, also, Can Error by Caliph of Allah i:e Adam (as) be attributed to Allah ta Aala? Ma'Aa Zallah.


Only Entity with Complete Ismat is Mustaqar Imam(as) and His Successor Mustaqar Imam(as)

There is no escape from that, but I hope for greater good the publishers and the Author will forgive me.

There is an escape from it.. don't copy his book.. translate it yourself or hire/contract someone to do so.. what you are saying is " I have no option but to rob someones house.. I hope he can forgive me"...
You could alternatively ask the publisher to make it available for free... what you are suggesting is nothing short of stealing...


But then, does faith not encompass every aspect of our life?
It does.. but if any aspect requires raza or permission by a higher authority, it is not a compulsory act... you don't need raza to pray.. you don't need raza to fast.. you don't need raza for hajj...


and who in your opinion is the rightfully appointed Dai?
I honestly do not know.. I just know that TS, MB or MS are not the rightful ones. Maybe the rightful one also has gone into a sort of parda with just a small community around him.. or maybe the line has ended... as per our doctrines, both are indication of the 7th naatiq to come...

and what should one do if he has aqeeda of inqeta an nass?
In this case, the logical thing I can think of is to make iqraar of the last person who you think is rightful leader and then say that I don't know who the next rightful person is.. rather than saying it has ended or to follow someone who you have doubts of being a rightful successor..


Also, I personally think that questioning the nominated hudud by Imam(as) is not questioning Imam(as) himself.

I can give you a bigger example.. Abu Bakr was supposedly a Hujjat of Rasulallah.. that makes him pretty up there.. and yet he was the first usurper... one cannot say "ohh if he someone of a higher rank can be wrong then why can't he?".. these ranks are not like military ranking... also, this age is very different from the one in which the Imaam was present.. the value of a rightful dai is much more today than when the imaam was present.. he represents the imaam..can he make mistakes? yes.. i have said it before, it is ofcourse possible.. but it is not for the people to decide that.. it is for the imaam to decide that.. The Ismaili-Tayyabi-Dawoodi faith is not a democracy.. there is no room for supervisors, police or a parliment to keep the president or prime minister in check..this is an authoritarian structure..

in the case, where there is evidence against a dai of mutiny or bidaat or going against the faith or where one has wrongfully claimed authority or power, you can disown him and say this person is not the right Dai... but you cannot at one hand say he is the right dai and on the other hand monitor and judge him and his actions..that is not your or my place to do so....

I don't agree with you about the book but I will think about it.

If I may ask, Who in your opinion then is the last rightfully appointed Dai, based on all that you have read and the resources that you have access to, and what is your reason to believe what you believe?

Also, is it true that originally Mithaq was only for Imam (as) but then TS added dai in it?

[kseeker]

There is no escape from that, but I hope for greater good the publishers and the Author will forgive me.

There is an escape from it.. don't copy his book.. translate it yourself or hire/contract someone to do so.. what you are saying is " I have no option but to rob someones house.. I hope he can forgive me"...
You could alternatively ask the publisher to make it available for free... what you are suggesting is nothing short of stealing...


But then, does faith not encompass every aspect of our life?
It does.. but if any aspect requires raza or permission by a higher authority, it is not a compulsory act... you don't need raza to pray.. you don't need raza to fast.. you don't need raza for hajj...


and who in your opinion is the rightfully appointed Dai?
I honestly do not know.. I just know that TS, MB or MS are not the rightful ones. Maybe the rightful one also has gone into a sort of parda with just a small community around him.. or maybe the line has ended... as per our doctrines, both are indication of the 7th naatiq to come...

and what should one do if he has aqeeda of inqeta an nass?
In this case, the logical thing I can think of is to make iqraar of the last person who you think is rightful leader and then say that I don't know who the next rightful person is.. rather than saying it has ended or to follow someone who you have doubts of being a rightful successor..


Also, I personally think that questioning the nominated hudud by Imam(as) is not questioning Imam(as) himself.

I can give you a bigger example.. Abu Bakr was supposedly a Hujjat of Rasulallah.. that makes him pretty up there.. and yet he was the first usurper... one cannot say "ohh if he someone of a higher rank can be wrong then why can't he?".. these ranks are not like military ranking... also, this age is very different from the one in which the Imaam was present.. the value of a rightful dai is much more today than when the imaam was present.. he represents the imaam..can he make mistakes? yes.. i have said it before, it is ofcourse possible.. but it is not for the people to decide that.. it is for the imaam to decide that.. The Ismaili-Tayyabi-Dawoodi faith is not a democracy.. there is no room for supervisors, police or a parliment to keep the president or prime minister in check..this is an authoritarian structure..

in the case, where there is evidence against a dai of mutiny or bidaat or going against the faith or where one has wrongfully claimed authority or power, you can disown him and say this person is not the right Dai... but you cannot at one hand say he is the right dai and on the other hand monitor and judge him and his actions..that is not your or my place to do so....

I don't agree with you about the book but I will think about it.

If I may ask, Who in your opinion then is the last rightfully appointed Dai, based on all that you have read and the resources that you have access to, and what is your reason to believe what you believe?

Also, is it true that originally Mithaq was only for Imam (as) but then TS added dai in it?

If I may ask, Who in your opinion then is the last rightfully appointed Dai, based on all that you have read and the resources that you have access to, and what is your reason to believe what you believe?


This is not an easy or simple question to answer... I have not read enough to give a determined opinion and I also believe that even if I have read everything out there on the matter, I will still be unsure because the fact is humans have a tendency to be biased..sometimes when you hate or despise someone, you lose the ability to see the good they do.. and when you love someone, you tend to ignore and make excuses for the bad and wrong they do... like almost every member, including myself, on this forum...

What I can say for sure is that TS, MB and TF/MS by no means fit the criteria mentioned by Syedna Hatim bin Ibrahim... I can say this because I have personally seen them and their actions and have heard their words. It is not my place or right to bad mouth or discredit the Dais before them. my simple answer is " I don't know who the last rightful one was and I pray that Allah show me the true path before I die"

Also, is it true that originally Mithaq was only for Imam (as) but then TS added dai in it?

To prove that one must have to produce a book or text written before the era of TS detailing the misaq wording to prove that it was different.. I have not seen any such book...

but as my personal opinion.. it won't be a surprise if it already existed.. the problem is that you do not believe that he is the rightful Dai.. let's say you believed dead in your heart that yes, he was the rightful Dai.. would you refuse to give him misaq as well?..

Very recently, when MS was announced as mansoos while MB was still alive.. the entire misaq had changed from"Imaam anay Dai" to "Imaam, Dai anay ehna Mansoos"...so yes, I think it is possible that the wordings could have changed various times over the course...

The reason for a misaaq is to give ourselves salvation.. salvation from this life and entry to the next.. for that we need to give baiyat to every Wali'ullah.. that would include a rightfully appointed Dai as well..

[Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain]

Thank you Kseeker for taking out time and sharing your objective opinion and views, Shukran Jazakallah Khair.

[Bohra spring]

Bohra Spring?! What a sick joke.

eh Mzee nanma gani unanitukana. Nitowa mapanga na marungu

[Bohra spring]

on a serious note Bohra ideology is big time corrupted and polluted. There is no salvation. It is a surprise it survived so far. It's gone too far off the main road.

Bohra culture is ok its tribal and fine. Nothing wrong. Offcourse stay away from idat, misaq and FGM. Erase that abhorrent ritual.

Those Bohra who really want to be Muslims and follow Quran the choice is revert to Sunnism or Jaferi Shia. More chances of being on the sirat mustaqim. Stay away from aga khani Ismaili.

FD is not going to get you any closer to haq.

There is reason to preserve Bohra culture and traditions, cuisine, kinship. However religious practices are very badly defective.

Regarding social services, modern Sunni and Shia centres are well run, well established from marriage, madrassa, burial and inclusiveness. They are tolerant where one dors not have to believe or practise loyalty to Imams and Khalifa.

Most are happy not to curse or respect their rituals through silent observation.

In East Africa, Khoja IthnaAsheri, Sunni Memon are open for anyone to walk in tablighi jamaat are open.

No more reason to remain in Bohra for services only.

Regarding Patriotic wishes that there are treasure troves of literature hidden in dungeon. That is a mirage .

After picking OZD mind, there is more likely notes from 100 200 yrs of sermons. The books are similar to what Ismaili Aga Khani library would have. There was no shipment that survived exile from Yemen. The books that are there are more like fairy tales, poetry or Diai opinion's. The creative works by Dawoodi Bohra are so few they would fit a bookshelf and would be completely rubbished if presented for scholarly review in Cairo Medina or Tehran.

There is no literary scholarship that has survived the purge in last 50 yrs. STS successfully razed that intellect.

I suggest PDB drop the Dawoodi word and try Resurrection Bohra to unite the liberal modern intellectual from Mufadali, Udaipuri, Fatemi, reach out to Alawi and Progressive and create a community based on Quran and a blend of Sunni and Shia theology and try to be tolerant people of followers of mainstream Islam have open door policy.

[Mkenya]

Bohra spring: Naomba sameho radhi kwa wewe. "Bohra Spring" sio wewe. "Bohra Spring" ni topic katika Forum hio tuna teteana.. Eh! mzee wangu, sitaki ulete mikuki, ngao, panga kwa wakati huu. Haitakiwi sasa. Weka akiba paka tuta pambana na wa haramu wale wame hijack imani hasaa ya Bohora.

[Bohra spring]

Bohra spring: Naomba sameho radhi kwa wewe. "Bohra Spring" sio wewe. "Bohra Spring" ni topic katika Forum hio tuna teteana.. Eh! mzee wangu, sitaki ulete mikuki, ngao, panga kwa wakati huu. Haitakiwi sasa. Weka akiba paka tuta pambana na wa haramu wale wame hijack imani hasaa ya Bohora.

Mheshimiwa Ndugu Mkubwa Basi tuwache hi makarofi za kondoo bila akili, tukae kama madugu asili Ummah Waislamu

Karibu ku kunwa kahawa and mahamri matamu. Peace Love and Unity Nyayo. Mimi bado kijana rohoni

[qutub_mamajiwala]

I suggest PDB drop the Dawoodi word and try Resurrection Bohra to unite the liberal modern intellectual from Mufadali, Udaipuri, Fatemi, reach out to Alawi and Progressive and create a community based on Quran and a blend of Sunni and Shia theology and try to be tolerant people of followers of mainstream Islam have open door policy.

PDB are also very conservative, very far from liberal.
their views on fgm and other are same as traditionalist.
may be they started as liberals, but now nowhere near it.
i have first hand experience.
in fact, traditional qutbi bohras followers of stf are more liberal in their approach and wordly ways.
some mufaddali are also more liberal that way.

[Humsafar]

PDB are also very conservative, very far from liberal.
their views on fgm and other are same as traditionalist.
may be they started as liberals, but now nowhere near it.
i have first hand experience.
in fact, traditional qutbi bohras followers of stf are more liberal in their approach and wordly ways.
some mufaddali are also more liberal that way.

This is not completely true, but I would not comment any further until I know what is your definition of "conservative" and "liberal".

[Mkenya]

qutub_mamajiwala: I look forward to your response to Humsafar above.

[Bohra spring]

After talking to OZD he asks me to state so people stop guessing and know who supported how much. An example is there is no mention of the case on the front page of this site. The details are buried in the forum. There is absolutely no acknowledgement. There was more coverage in the Guardian media. There were no PDB celebrations of women's freedom from harm. Nothing. The site goes on lamenting how they lost or won cases in the 1960s against STS and SMB but not for such a high profile FGM victory that was reported in almost all the world media.

PDB members contacted did not respond to him or international police inquiries to assist with FGM. Including prominent people on this site. There were almost feelings of hypocrisy. Pleas after pleas went unanswered. But je says it was Allah's will that such a landmark the case was won against so many odds.

A few north American reformist assisted they do not associatewith mainstream PDB. Getting translation of traditional books the translation was not forthcoming, India reformist who were approached gave a cold shoulder. There were more non Bohras helping than Bohras. There were some PDB commentators that ozd has asked not name , argued that FGM was shariat. This was also noted by NGOs monitoring causing quite a concern and disappointment. Their continued low support in the India case is another example. India case to is primarily by a few self funded activists. It goes to show a few dedicated men and women can transform the community. Bohra girls now know they don't need to suffer FGM.

In spirit of change don't wait for PDB, FD or help from somewhere. Allah SWT in Quran says

Indeed Allah will not change the conditions of a population until they change what is in themselves. Qur'an 13:11

The only person who ozd was in contact with that was actively trying to help was late Asgerali Engineer Senior. The admin did a commendable job keeping the site up as the commentary was being noted.

ozd mentioned Fatemi Dawaat representatives were more helpful than PDB and ready to listen, in Detroit however the representatives appointed were not able build confidence and reliability with FBI whether they were helpful. Their announcement to discourage FGM publicly was timely and investigators were in communication when it happened when case moved to SupremeCourt in Australia. It was not random or coincidental. Thats the most ozd allows will me to say for now.

It was after the case was in victory round that PDB members took advantage and started making media publicity. However PDB main advantage it got kothar confused who were the architects of the case. They foolishly thought it was PDB or FD. It helped keep them guessing.

The biggest damage to Detroit case was the professional women Kothar bank rolled under guise of Dawoodi Bohra Women for Religious Freedom. They very intelligently found a legal point that applied to USA but not Australia ,constitution guarantee for religious freedom. All this and intricate details will come out soon.

OZD says he has very little in common with PDB as result of above issues and his personal beliefs. He has no political ambitions to contest leadership role, if PDB or FD fear him, but does not wish them hate or harm, i think they will continue to keep SMS and STF in check and wishes them successful outcomes. Its their choice what belief or loyalty system they want to follow.

I suggest PDB drop the Dawoodi word and try Resurrection Bohra to unite the liberal modern intellectual from Mufadali, Udaipuri, Fatemi, reach out to Alawi and Progressive and create a community based on Quran and a blend of Sunni and Shia theology and try to be tolerant people of followers of mainstream Islam have open door policy.

PDB are also very conservative, very far from liberal.
their views on fgm and other are same as traditionalist.
may be they started as liberals, but now nowhere near it.
i have first hand experience.
in fact, traditional qutbi bohras followers of stf are more liberal in their approach and wordly ways.
some mufaddali are also more liberal that way.

[qutub_mamajiwala]

PDB are also very conservative, very far from liberal.
their views on fgm and other are same as traditionalist.
may be they started as liberals, but now nowhere near it.
i have first hand experience.
in fact, traditional qutbi bohras followers of stf are more liberal in their approach and wordly ways.
some mufaddali are also more liberal that way.

This is not completely true, but I would not comment any further until I know what is your definition of "conservative" and "liberal".

i agree that not completely true. may be some are liberal
but i was saying generally and majority of them.
like they have have same views on fgm like traditinalist.
they like to cover their women in black robes.
not all of them , but that is their thinking.
nowadays they are more inclined towards islamists.
may be due to geopolitical happenings in our country,
in wordly discourse also , they align with more radical thinking of islamist.

[qutub_mamajiwala]

in contrast , the traditional paid members of mufaddli--some only living in mainly in mumbai
i have seen very liberal. they dont want to rock the boat , due to various reasons,
they dont do fgm,--just dont say it. nobody is going to come and check physically.
even if someone asks--they just lie.
they marry their daughter also in the same thinking family.
just pay their minimum dues and go on with their life as they please.
dont go to masjid and run on roads for maula.
kothar knows them but doesnt bother them as they do not clash with them openly.

[qutub_mamajiwala]

many of from here--would not even consider them as religious and islamists here would bash them.
for not following shariat as per their what they consider as only right thing.
that is the difference.
kothar and majority of people here are same two sides of the coin.
both want people to follow their ideology which they consider is true and rest all is false.
humsafar had asked--what do u mean by conservative and liberal.
liberal means letting oneself live as the wish without interference in their personal life.
let them worship anything, have faith in anything--follow or not follow shariat--who are u to decide

[Humsafar]

This is not completely true, but I would not comment any further until I know what is your definition of "conservative" and "liberal".

i agree that not completely true. may be some are liberal
but i was saying generally and majority of them.
like they have have same views on fgm like traditinalist.
they like to cover their women in black robes.
not all of them , but that is their thinking.
nowadays they are more inclined towards islamists.
may be due to geopolitical happenings in our country,
in wordly discourse also , they align with more radical thinking of islamist.

These are your observations from your personal experiences -- not the material on the basis of which one should draw general conclusions. Every group has all kinds of people and tendencies. For sure many progressives in Udaipur are very orthodox and have firm faith in Fatimid tenets, some others not so much. Same with FGM, some practice some don't. To say that Mufaddalis are more liberal than all other factions flies in the face of the overwhelming reality. With all your fuzzy thinking I don't see much point in discussing this subject. Take care.

[Bohra spring]

Bhai do you agree or disagree with OzD experiences too ?

Did PDB fail to live up to reforming the Bohra society based on Islamic practices when it had an opportunity leveraging the FGM issue

What determines within PDB what issue is important?

Why is corruption more important than human or women or children's rights.

Or is it misogynist and patriarchal bias that pdb only cares if the old men are affected , as in paying more taxes or dont get a political say in running the affairs of community. Thats the hypocrisy I mean.

PDB should remember this in 21st century they failed to step up when the whole world was watching and fighting with a few men and women to give young mothers and girls a chance to say no to sexual mutilation.

Where was PDB when the heavy lifting was required. No encouragement, no funding, no protest nothing was forthcoming.

The few men and women relied on their own motivation and drive to bring the house of Mufadali into disrepute.

i agree that not completely true. may be some are liberal
but i was saying generally and majority of them.
like they have have same views on fgm like traditinalist.
they like to cover their women in black robes.
not all of them , but that is their thinking.
nowadays they are more inclined towards islamists.
may be due to geopolitical happenings in our country,
in wordly discourse also , they align with more radical thinking of islamist.

These are your observations from your personal experiences -- not the material on the basis of which one should draw general conclusions. Every group has all kinds of people and tendencies. For sure many progressives in Udaipur are very orthodox and have firm faith in Fatimid tenets, some others not so much. Same with FGM, some practice some don't. To say that Mufaddalis are more liberal than all other factions flies in the face of the overwhelming reality. With all your fuzzy thinking I don't see much point in discussing this subject. Take care.

[Humsafar]

Brother Bohra Spring,

Please realise that nobody on the Forum speaks for PDB, we all comment as individuals. So if OzD was disappointed with certain individuals the whole group should not be blamed for it. The reformists in Udaipur I admit are quite conservative and would not like to talk about FGM on an official platform. Some of our women are quite active and voluble about this subject but we also have a very lound and aggressive faction of conservatives -- the followers of Sheikh Ahmed Ali -- who shout down the women and a few men who bring up this subject. You've to understand that like any other group PDB is not a homogenous entity, we have many internal contradictions although we do agree on the basic agenda about the corruption of the Kothar etc. Call it patriarchal, hypocritical or whatever ... this is what it is.

I'm sorry to hear that OzD did not get the support from PDB he was looking for on this Forum. It all depends on who he approached. The other thing is very few "official" PDB members participate here. There are many with progressive sentiments who come here but they are not necessarily PDB members. Even so, as I said above not all PDB fellows are passionate about ending FGM. So maybe that's why he didn't get much support.

[Ozdundee]

Humsafar motabhai, I was initially unaware about what you just stated, others too said the same . Well what had to be done had to be done and as was painfully realised, team had to go on our self motivation, at the end justice was served and victory was hard fought. Fortunately devine blessing was on our side the oppressors were shamed. Rest is for history books and academic research. I am now less active in Bohra matters even though BS keeps dragging and dreaming and hoping of a new Bohra era. BS go ahead you have my best wishes for success. Do what others before you were able to do, do not ever think its impossible mission!

SBM , Al Zul, Ghulam M , x , y can resurrect themselves and come to your aide.

[Shabab]

there won't be any Bohra spring but yes these people will perish by themself.

[Bohra spring]

Kid when senior wise people are talking its good manners to listen quietly. Has jamia sabaq not taught such mannerisms
Some people at moment discussing are people who changed the future of Bohras and reversed some of the polluted traditions that 4 to 5 previous Diais had introduced from questionable scriptures.

OzD on child abuse , GM on shutting down Mufadals social media posts. al Zul with his oratory skills killed any arguments from the abdes of his times, SBM stopping visits of SMS to certain regions to stop the tide of fly in fly out shazada bandits.

there won't be any Bohra spring but yes these people will perish by themself.