Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 7:37 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#31

Unread post by Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:29 pm

Just to make sure that discussion does not go off-track... Let me reiterate...

My question is sharia validity of such an act, not who is the real culprit..Qadambosier or Qadambosied...

Kaka Akela
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#32

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:38 pm

Thank you for bringing it back on track.
Dawoodi Bhoras and Aghakhanis are cousins in the sense they come all the way in our belief upto the 18 or 19 th imam. The Agha khani imam never marry an Agha khani women, their wives are always from out of their community. The reason given is, their imams consider all his female followers as their daughters and marrying them will be counter to that belief. Similarly, our Doat think and call us as their farzands and that makes it kosher for our women to physically do salaams as now they are mehramdaars. Similar relationship exists with hudud and shehzadas.
There is a hadees that says innamal aamalo bil niyyat, if your niyyat is clean then your amal is clean.

ajamali
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#33

Unread post by ajamali » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:28 pm

You two sound like a couple of Jamea dudes making excuses for your masters...it’s funny how you extended tge mehram from the Rutba holders, to their hududs.....just because....God knows what you will sanction next!

zinger
Posts: 2201
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#34

Unread post by zinger » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:12 am

Admin wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:25 am
zinger wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:00 am @Admin

Could you please explain to me why was my post deleted?
Not sure which post you are referring to. Don't think we've deleted any of your posts.
thank you for confirming. might have been a miss from my end then, where maybe i didnt hit submit

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#35

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:24 pm

Humsafar wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:11 pm
ajamali wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:29 pm

Are you blaming the women?! I can expect an AHole like you to blame the women! How hard was it for the moronic Shehzada to stop the women from slobbering all over his hand? Isn’t it his job to guide them in the Islamic way?
The women cannot be completely absolved of responsibility, don't you think? They can choose not to bend and scrape. You expect the scoundrel to follow the Islamic way. really? Here's the thing, in this priesthood-people equation, the people have agency too. They have the choice and power to not to do anything that is wrong. Okay, I know about the pressure and oppression and all that, but no matter what, people still have a choice. And they also have the responsibility to learn and understand their own faith and Islam. All the blame cannot be laid at the door of the mafia clergy.
The Bohra clergy and their followers clearly form a parasitic relationship. Without the adoring followers the clergy would be no more, but one must not underestimate the value which the mullah brings to the follower's life. Unfortunately, when you grow up in this community all your life is centered around events that occur on a daily basis, sometimes even more than once a day. Mullah, shehzada and da'i are central to that. He looms larger than your parents and your siblings, and for some, even larger than your spouse. A life outside one regulated by the clergy simply can't be imagined by a typical Bohra. The fear of losing this life is so great that Bohras never, ever complain or do anything to upset the mullahs. In this situation, it is not surprising that the blame in this situation really mostly lies with the priests. It is they who can correct the situation. If they wanted to.

Of course, we all know that mullahs only want more power, money and control. So here we are: Bohras will never leave the mullahs and mullahs won't ever stop exploiting them. In fact, this is probably the key reason why the Progressive movement really failed. Early, people had some left-over idealism from the Freedom Movement which made them believe that all forms of oppression would be eliminated by protest movements. However, what the Progressives did not realize that in this particular case the Bohras actually want to be exploited! They do not want to live independently, they do not want to think for themselves or decide questions of morality and religion by themselves. Kissing hands and feet of mullahs comes with the submissive and degraded position the Bohras have put themselves in.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#36

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:28 pm

Kaka Akela wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:38 pm Thank you for bringing it back on track.
Dawoodi Bhoras and Aghakhanis are cousins in the sense they come all the way in our belief upto the 18 or 19 th imam. The Agha khani imam never marry an Agha khani women, their wives are always from out of their community. The reason given is, their imams consider all his female followers as their daughters and marrying them will be counter to that belief. Similarly, our Doat think and call us as their farzands and that makes it kosher for our women to physically do salaams as now they are mehramdaars. Similar relationship exists with hudud and shehzadas.
There is a hadees that says innamal aamalo bil niyyat, if your niyyat is clean then your amal is clean.
I guess so if a shehzada wants to sleep with random women but his niyyat for doing so it "clean" then his amal is also clean? Anyway, what nonsense are you saying? Please back up your statements with references to Qur'an and hadith literature that kissing hands and feet of random guy who calls himself "hudud" or Shehzada is okay.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#37

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:32 pm

Biradar wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:24 pm The Bohra clergy and their followers clearly form a parasitic relationship. Without the adoring followers the clergy would be no more, but one must not underestimate the value which the mullah brings to the follower's life. Unfortunately, when you grow up in this community all your life is centered around events that occur on a daily basis, sometimes even more than once a day. Mullah, shehzada and da'i are central to that. He looms larger than your parents and your siblings, and for some, even larger than your spouse. A life outside one regulated by the clergy simply can't be imagined by a typical Bohra. The fear of losing this life is so great that Bohras never, ever complain or do anything to upset the mullahs. In this situation, it is not surprising that the blame in this situation really mostly lies with the priests. It is they who can correct the situation. If they wanted to.

Of course, we all know that mullahs only want more power, money and control. So here we are: Bohras will never leave the mullahs and mullahs won't ever stop exploiting them. In fact, this is probably the key reason why the Progressive movement really failed. Early, people had some left-over idealism from the Freedom Movement which made them believe that all forms of oppression would be eliminated by protest movements. However, what the Progressives did not realize that in this particular case the Bohras actually want to be exploited! They do not want to live independently, they do not want to think for themselves or decide questions of morality and religion by themselves. Kissing hands and feet of mullahs comes with the submissive and degraded position the Bohras have put themselves in.
I agree with you entirely about how Bohras have been brainwashed but I still think they cannot be absolved of all personal responsibility. It is the same moral position of a soldier who kills innocent people on the express excuse of following the orders from higher-ups. People always have a choice. But for reasons we all know too well they do not exercise that choice. And you say because of this the progressive movement has failed. I would turn that statement around, actually. It is the Bohras who have really failed the progressive movement. This might seem as nitpicking but this distinction is important, and for years I've been underlining it.

ajamali
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#38

Unread post by ajamali » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:24 pm

Biradar wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:28 pm
Kaka Akela wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:38 pm Thank you for bringing it back on track.
Dawoodi Bhoras and Aghakhanis are cousins in the sense they come all the way in our belief upto the 18 or 19 th imam. The Agha khani imam never marry an Agha khani women, their wives are always from out of their community. The reason given is, their imams consider all his female followers as their daughters and marrying them will be counter to that belief. Similarly, our Doat think and call us as their farzands and that makes it kosher for our women to physically do salaams as now they are mehramdaars. Similar relationship exists with hudud and shehzadas.
There is a hadees that says innamal aamalo bil niyyat, if your niyyat is clean then your amal is clean.
I guess so if a shehzada wants to sleep with random women but his niyyat for doing so it "clean" then his amal is also clean? Anyway, what nonsense are you saying? Please back up your statements with references to Qur'an and hadith literature that kissing hands and feet of random guy who calls himself "hudud" or Shehzada is okay.
A Shehzada’s niyat is always clean. If he sleeps with a random woman, it may be that he intended to comfort her or her him and then su su thai gayuu.

Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 7:37 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#39

Unread post by Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain » Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:08 pm

Kaka Akela wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:38 pm Thank you for bringing it back on track.
Dawoodi Bhoras and Aghakhanis are cousins in the sense they come all the way in our belief upto the 18 or 19 th imam. The Agha khani imam never marry an Agha khani women, their wives are always from out of their community. The reason given is, their imams consider all his female followers as their daughters and marrying them will be counter to that belief. Similarly, our Doat think and call us as their farzands and that makes it kosher for our women to physically do salaams as now they are mehramdaars. Similar relationship exists with hudud and shehzadas.
There is a hadees that says innamal aamalo bil niyyat, if your niyyat is clean then your amal is clean.
Bhai Kaka Akela,

Can you back any of your claims with authentic references?

As per fatemi-Ismaili doctrine every immidiate hadd e aali is our spiritual father,mother or both depending on which level we are.. but that does not over rule sharia rullings in physical domain.

Rasulullah (SWA) married muslim women, so did Moula Ali and Aimmat Fatemiyeen.

Even STS saheb married three of his wives after becoming a Dai, so the argument that Ruhani bawa is equal to Physical bawa in all sense does not hold water...

Had that been the case, women too would have held hands and given bayt in groups of four rather than holding piece of thread in mithaaq.

Btw there is qawl of Moula Ameerul Mumineen(as) "No act, no matter how good it seems, is good if it is prohibited(Sharia Wise). and similarly no act no matter how bad it may seem is bad, if it is allowed(Sharia wise)

BTW after some research I found out that this act of Hand and Feet Kissing was started during the era of STS 51 Saheb.

During the period of earlier doat(RA) including early years of STS 51 tenure, Tasbeeh of Dai would be circulated in bethak in which there use to be a purdah between Dai and Female followers.

Infact one lady in Surat refused doing physical salaam, as a result that lady's religious teacher Mulla Safdar Ali Abde Ali Chanchulia was not only removed from Surat but was even forced to leave Surat city itself.

So in fact this act is nothing but a bidat and gunah e azeem.

Now a days in the name of Bethak so much behurmati happens.. there are so many incidents of non mehram Burhani Guards and personal male entourage of Syedna knowingly and unknowingly touching and feeling women happens.

Few diwans of SMB 53 and yunus Bs son in law of SMB 52 were known offenders..

Kaka Akela
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#40

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:29 pm

Sorry, i have no authentic references as i am a regular person ans not a jamea graduate. I mentioned what i obseve. You are a miyasaheb abd should know more than me.

Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 7:37 am

Re: Qadambosi of Dai and His Hududs by Non Mehram

#41

Unread post by Sheikh_Sajjad_Husain » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:55 am

Kaka Akela wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:29 pm Sorry, i have no authentic references as i am a regular person ans not a jamea graduate. I mentioned what i obseve. You are a miyasaheb abd should know more than me.
Then I think you should refrain from making wild guesses and qiyaas.

and I am no miyasaheb, I have just taken user Id in the name of Maqtul Sheikh Sajjad Husain Sarangpurwala.