Who prepares Moula's bayaans

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mohammed_truthseeker
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:01 am

Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#1

Unread post by mohammed_truthseeker » Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:14 pm

I wish to know, who prepares Moula's bayaans? who writes and edits them. I dont think Moula himself does that because, while delivering the bayaan if the paper flies away, due to a sudden gust of wind from a fan, Moula is not able to continue for even one sentence till he gets all the papers back.

I think all the bayaans are carefully written by a group and then Moula is given the bayaan to deliver on whatever occassion.

Please share what you know about this, and I would also like to hear from Gulf and his company as well.

Gulf
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#2

Unread post by Gulf » Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:47 pm

sure!! I will give you a right answer of your question.. but first you have to explain me what is relation of your question with your reform movement.

porus
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#3

Unread post by porus » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:30 pm

Sayedna's bayaans stretch upto 3 hours. I am amazed at the quality of his voice at such an advanced stageof age. It appears that even while reading his script, he is able to infuse his bayaans with emotional depth which moves his audience.

All speeches by important people are pre-written. It would be nice if a teleprompter was made available to Sayedna so that he does not have to worry about pages flying off due to breeze.

Every bayaan of Sayedan carries interpretation of several ayats of Quran which can only come from Sayedna or be authorized by him. The salgirah speech was no exception. In fact, it was a very impressive performance. Very few people, let alone people at age 97, can hold forth with any let-up in the quality of their voices.

Well done!

mohammed_truthseeker
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#4

Unread post by mohammed_truthseeker » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:48 pm

Originally posted by Gulf:
sure!! I will give you a right answer of your question.. but first you have to explain me what is relation of your question with your reform movement.
I am not part of any movement. I just wanted to know.

SBM
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#5

Unread post by SBM » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:42 pm

Let us see if GULP can come up with answer.

As a matter of fact all the Waiz and Bayan for all the Aamils around the World comes from Vazarat.
I have personally seen overnight FEDEX delivered the WAIZ even for Muharram

neutralbohri
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#6

Unread post by neutralbohri » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:06 am

Mr. Gulf,

If mohammed_truthseeker, is asking about moulana's bayan, he doesnt necessarily mean to demean his lectures. If you have any relevant information about the same then please share.

Even I am curious to know about the process that goes into the bayaan's text on every occassion. Do the Bayaan's text take into account current social, political, religious conditions??

The other reason I am curious is because almost 50% of the times I find the bayaan's very repetitive. And this is not only Moulana's Bayaan's but also all Aamils, sheikh's and janaab Saaheb's Bayaans.

Regards,

Gulf
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#7

Unread post by Gulf » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:23 am

The other reason I am curious is because almost 50% of the times I find the bayaan's very repetitive. And this is not only Moulana's Bayaan's but also all Aamils, sheikh's and janaab Saaheb's Bayaans.
neutral you need to ask admin to retrive your password.. dont bother yourself. nothing has repeated in the world, even Bayaans.

East Africawalla
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#8

Unread post by East Africawalla » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:30 am

All the bayans are written by the intelectuals under guidance of the Dai, the amils etc use the same bayans for moharrum written by Kothar so that the message is not distorted

anajmi
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:43 pm

nothing has repeated in the world, even Bayaans.
Simple crap from an ignorant kothari who has probably never listened to any bayaan but is sitting there shouting and thumping his chest every two minutes in the middle of the bayaan. Obviously bayaans will repeat. Where do you think the Syedna is going to get new stories to tell you in every bayaan? During Moharram the same stories are told every year, which is quite normal. Are they supposed to create new stories every year?

accountability
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#10

Unread post by accountability » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:53 pm

Syedna saheb has a very crisp voice at the age of 97, which is real amazing.

Syedna saheb's address are all prepared by a panel of jamea ustads, who are very close to syedna and chain of command. The research is being done by them. Their whole duty is to find material, that syedna saheb either wants, or is suggestive.

I give you an example, during a muharram waaz, Syedna saheb described a hikaya, which said, that issa nabi was visiting the site of karbala, and he just smell some kind of goat excreta, which had fragrance in it, and then he said that this is the site of karbala. but that bayan was never repeated, as this hikaya will never have an authentic source.

Similarly Syedna saheb's bayan usually are not very ripe in research, his speech is more rhetorical than substantial.

the content of waaz is seldom thought provoking. very cleverly it emphasises on obedience and submission.

mohammed_truthseeker
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#11

Unread post by mohammed_truthseeker » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:47 pm

Originally posted by accountability:


the content of waaz is seldom thought provoking. very cleverly it emphasises on obedience and submission.
Yes, you are right. The content is seldom thought provoking, and all the anecdotes and stories that are narrated emphasize total submission without any questions. This I find very disturbing.

Asking Questions is a crime. I have heated arguments even with my father on the same. He also has the same attitude which shuns open thinking.

My point is why do you have to force total submission all the time, why do you have to sing the same thing all the time. If people love Aqa Moula then why is there a need to use any kind of force. No need to use force and then justify the force by saying that this is for the love of Dai and Dawat.

So, What I mean is most of the bayaans in essence convey the same thing.

Wassalaam
Mohammed

seeker110
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#12

Unread post by seeker110 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:49 pm

If we are comparing the voice only, than Henry Kissinger will win the competition.They both are lovable people.wink, wink.

accountability
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#13

Unread post by accountability » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:37 pm

what a comparison. YOu know Henry Kissinger.. . Right.

Muslim First
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#14

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:22 am

Br. AC

Does "hikaya" means "Wakaya"?

Wasalaam
.

S. Insaf
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#15

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:21 am

In Urdu there two words, Hikayat (story, legend) and Vaqeyat (true happenings).
As Sardar Jafree says:

HikayateN bhi bahut haiN, ShikayateN bhi Bahut,
Maza tao jab hai ke yaaroN ke darmiyaN kahiye.

S. Insaf
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#16

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:31 am

I had the privilege to meet late Shaikh Sajjad Husain and Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj, two Ustads of Jameyah-Saifiah Surat. Both them had told me that most of the Arabic poetries published in the name of late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb were actually written by Shaikh Hasan Ali Saheb. And that includes his famous "Ya Sayedus Shohdayee".

accountability
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#17

Unread post by accountability » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:40 pm

Brother MF

Brother Saifuddin has eloborated very correctly.

JC
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#18

Unread post by JC » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:23 pm

Neither Taher nor Burhan have that much brains to write poetry that too in Arabic. I guess no body believes that all those qaseedas etc stuff which fill the saheefas and books of community are written by Taher. They show tons of poetry written but it is simply not practical for a person like taher or burhan to have written those.

These days there are ppl who are wrting burhans speeches. on old man's slagirah bayan, the writers came up with another funny idea - Imam Qayaim (now who is this, where did he came from, not mentioned very many times earlier etc) when ZAHORES will go to Madianh and take out the bodies of Hazrat Abu Baker and Hazrat Umer buried alongside Prophet Mohammad (old man used words 'jay nay GA RAY la chay') and bring life to them to show ppl they are Shaytans..!!!! How he will 'prove' this or 'show' this when these two revered personalities come to life again .... is anybody's guess!! what will happen next - wait for next bayan some times in future. NOW, the gullible taheri sheep these days is saying WAH WAH ..... and stuff on this 'new' revelation of maula .......!!!! what a bunch of brainless sheep,,,,,,,

Sheep is also talking that maula said something about 59th or 69th Imam in whose time the dawat will be in 'skies'......... and now rumors are rife that ZAHOOR is near....... MAY BE, as i have been saying, burhan is going to declare one imam (just a figure head) and there will be approx four dais appointed for different regions will full powers. These dais will be mostly all of burhan's sons.

mohammed_truthseeker
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#19

Unread post by mohammed_truthseeker » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:09 pm

Originally posted by JC:


Sheep is also talking that maula said something about 59th or 69th Imam in whose time the dawat will be in 'skies'......... and now rumors are rife that ZAHOOR is near....... MAY BE, as i have been saying, burhan is going to declare one imam (just a figure head) and there will be approx four dais appointed for different regions will full powers. These dais will be mostly all of burhan's sons.
Actually, this is a very real possibility, to split the power and divide the different geographies so that each of the stakeholders might rule......this would have been thought about by the family, I am sure.

porus
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#20

Unread post by porus » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:16 pm

JC,

You are obviously very far removed from the religion of the Bohras and have not had any education in it.

The idea of Qaaim-ul-Qiyaama has been around since Fatimids and I have heard about Imam Qaim many times before. And what Sayedna mentioned in the Saligrah waez has been heard before. (This is not the same Imam Qaim that was the Imam during the Fatimid times).

Removal the remains of the first two Khulafas from the vicinity of the Prophet's tomb must be understood on metaphoric level. This is also the case with the phrases you keep hearing about Shahaadat of Imam Husain and legendary anecdotes. You will not hear those in Ithana-Ashari Waez.

Examples of phrases are khajuri-nu jaar, lokhand-na moja, buthu khanjar, baar raghara. Anecdotes are like the one where wounded and blood-soaked Imam Hussain appears many miles away from Karbala on Ashura to help a Magi, who called for his help.

You may not see the relevance of these to 'al-haqiqa' in Bohra religion. Instead of continually rubbishing these you should consider that the Bohra religion is primarily a baatini religion and seek to understand the ideas behind them.

For Bohras, these are very much an aspect of Ibaadat.

You can say much the same thing about Quran and Namaaz. Oh, it is the same thing over and over again! Why bother? I can point out many ideas from Quran which you would dismiss outright if you did not know they were from Quran.

And when you find out that they are from Quran, you may seek to find the lessons behind those ideas.

Try not to behave like bigots like MF, who beat drums aloud professing to know Islam but do not.

anajmi
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:19 pm

Bohra religion is primarily a baatini religion and seek to understand the ideas behind them.
Now ask the tripplehorn where to get this understanding from and see what happens. I have a little bit of this understanding. According to this understanding god is a female with three horns and there is a dead donkey that sends you gifts. All of maula's bayaans are actually referring to the middle horn of the she god and the gifts sent by the dead donkey.

JC
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#22

Unread post by JC » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:48 pm

Porus,

Thanks for the reply.

You said - Bohra religion is a Batani religion.

May be you are right about 'Bohra Religion' - to me it is 'Taheri Cult'.

And when you say bohra religion, I will assume it has nothing to with ISLAM ...!!! which IS A RELIGION.

Do not get confused with all this Zaheri and Batani - to me Quran and Sunnah are 'understandable' and there is no 'batani' in it.

To me God completed Islam on Mohammad and has liked it for Human Race. What has happened after Mohammad is history, there is no point fighting on history as it would differ what different historians would say - their bais and preference comes in to play. Other thing is traditions and cultures of area where Muslims live, the way of living of Muslims in Pakistan is different than of those in Saudi Arabia. Both are right in their own ways until and unless they do not interfere in religion and CHANGE the religion for the sake of traditions or culture (and ofcourse history).

Bohras have changed Islam to fit and suit their own requirement - and there are tons of examples. NO ONE has the right to remove the bodies of those who are buried near Prophet, this is a DONE DEAL. Right or Wrong. What if tomorrows Sunnis in Iraq want to remove the body of Ali or Hussain from their graves???!!! What if they say a Khalifa will come and do that for any reason??!! Do not complicate the issue by using 'batani' and 'taweel' and stuff.

Story of Karbala is a myth and as you have pointed out, there are many a things which we do not understand and you bring in batani stuff if you don't understand it. Why not think, these may just be concocted stories??!! May be all that never happend??!! There are so many anamolies - may be things went some other way rather what is being said.

Honestly, bohras are the ones who are sowing seeds of division in Islam and want Muslims to fight Muslims.

Humsafar
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#23

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:58 pm

Porus,

To be fair to JC, how many bohras do you think actually know about Qaaim-ul-Qiyaama? I'd really like to know what was Sayedna saheb trying to say in his speech by making reference to it.

The Bohra faith may well be a batini religion and there might be some merit to it but such esoteric philosophical matters are far removed from the reality of Bohra lives. When the custodian of the batini religion themselves have turned this religion into a money-making machine and bohras into a dai-worshiping flock, how can we expect common bohras to appreciate the finer points of their religion. All this batini stuff is good as far it goes but I'm afraid this is just another stick in the hands of the clergy to beat the hapless, ignorant bohras with. Of course, the bohras have the responsibility to educate themselves but how many actually are ready to do that? The majority will always be ignorant of their true religion and the clergy will keep flogging them with the batini stick. A perfect setup for endless exploitation.

porus
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#24

Unread post by porus » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:01 pm

Originally posted by JC:

Do not get confused with all this Zaheri and Batani - to me Quran and Sunnah are 'understandable' and there is no 'batani' in it.

Do you understand the Quran? Do you think there is any reference in it about baatin and taawil?

Why do you think there has been the need for so much exegesis of the Quran over the centuries?

You can only claim that it is understandable if you have understood it yourself. If not, you are rubbishing its study like a bigot, which I am rapidly concluding you are.

JC
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#25

Unread post by JC » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:06 pm

Thank you Humsafar.

Why ask Porus how many bohras know Qayeem Al-Qayama..!!! I bet most of them will not be able to pronounce this..!!!! It took them years to get used to - Imam Moujood Chay, Wajib-ul-Wajood Chay - and I bet again if you ask most of them what do you mean by Wajib-ul-Wajood, they will not know that.

Porus - Imam or No Imam, I donot care. Imam, if there comes one - will have NO RIGHT to change ISLAM. I know you will say Imam will bring REAL ISLAM and do this or that FOR Muslims, but all those utternaces are bringing misery to the lives to Muslims TODAY. I cannot sacrifice my known TODAY for an unknown TOMORROW.

JC
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#26

Unread post by JC » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:13 pm

Porus,

I can agree with you as far as Quran is concerned. Yes, it is difficult, there are tons of interpretations, I do not know a bit about Quran, understand very little - BUT I try to, I have my limitations, there are people who will understand more and will try to explain.

What I fail to understand and agree is Bataan and Taweel in bohra religion. kothar has invented this for its own sake. Whatever they donot know or donot want to explain, or has hidden meaning (as it is mala fide) they hide it under Taweel. Same is Karbala, Imamat, Hussain, Dai etc etc stuff.

DO MOT equate Quran and its understanding with your batanni and taweeli religion. The myth of Karabla, Zahoor of imam, sajdas to dai have nothing to do with Quran and has no relevance whatsoever in Islam.

porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#27

Unread post by porus » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:13 pm

Humsafar,

I think you understand the issue like no one else on this board. Reformists are in a dilemma. They need the religion, including the baatin, to be true to faith. Yet, its custodians have turned it into a Dai-worshipping personality cult.

To rescue the religion and cleanse it from "inside" will need all the knowledge of the religion, which, as you rightly pointed out elsewhere, will only come through Jamia graduates.

What I was pointing out that the participants on this board are not the material you can work with to wage your battle from "inside". Bigotry arises out of conviction that there can be no alternative opinion and then engaging on rubbishing all opinions except those held by the bigots.

What I have noticed is that many people who are not aware of terms like Qaim-ul-Qiyaamaa will raise the matter with local Aamils, who, in my experience, are more than willing to elucidate the matter for them.

Many of the ideas that Sayedna is using are centuries old and part of the Bohra tradition. Despite the abuse by Kothar, they deserve our respect and educational scrutiny.

anajmi
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:17 pm

The use of the term "metaphor" is common amongst tripplehorns to fool people. What is a metaphor? Wikipedia has a good explanation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

Metaphor (from the Greek: μεταφορά - metaphora, "a transfer", in rhetoric "transference of a word to a new sense", from μεταφέρω - metaphero, "to carry over, to transfer") is language that directly compares seemingly unrelated subjects. In the simplest case, this takes the form: "The [first subject] is a [second subject]."

In the usage of a metaphor, there is a first subject and a second subject. The second subject is used to enhance the description of the first even though they may be unrelated. In the bohra batini crap, there is no first subject in this metaphor. There is only the second subject. Which implies to me that the term "metaphor" is used by the bohra tripplehorns to explain senseless stuff, or stuff that cannot be explained. There is one other way to explain this stuff = "bigot, bigot, bigot!!!".

porus
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#29

Unread post by porus » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:18 pm

JC,

Baatin and Taawil predates Kothar and existed even during the time of Prophet and Ali.

They can be abused. But it is not just the Baatin and Taawil that is abused. All the readily understood sentences from the Quran are also abused daily by all Muslims, scholars and laymen, Sunnis and Shia.

Give me an instance of Baatin from Sayedna that you think is abusive of the relgion of the Bohras.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans

#30

Unread post by porus » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:21 pm

JC,

Just one instance. Sajda to Sayedna has nothing to do Baatin or Taawil, no matter what anybody tells you.