What a cop out from the batini police. I abuse because they abuse too!! Baatin and Taawil are used only for abuse by the likes of you and your syedna.But it is not just the Baatin and Taawil that is abused. All the readily understood sentences from the Quran are also abused daily by all Muslims, scholars and laymen, Sunnis and Shia.
Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
003.007
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Oh My God, I posted YusufAli , let me run and hide before I get hit by one of the horns!!
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Oh My God, I posted YusufAli , let me run and hide before I get hit by one of the horns!!
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
JC,
Physical Imam is not an issue of practical relevance to Bohras. Imamat is and is the bedrock of their religion. As you no longer subscribe to fundamentals of the religion of the Bohras and are vehemently against it to the point of being abusive,, your input, like that of the two bigots, is irrelevant to this discussion.
Physical Imam is not an issue of practical relevance to Bohras. Imamat is and is the bedrock of their religion. As you no longer subscribe to fundamentals of the religion of the Bohras and are vehemently against it to the point of being abusive,, your input, like that of the two bigots, is irrelevant to this discussion.
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
JC (proxy),
Your input is absolutely relevant. It infacts hits the nail on the head. Taawil is used (abused) by tripplehorns and their likes to fool simple minded bohras into servitude. By telling them how the first three khalifas will be risen from their graves by this Imam, they are instilling fear into the hearts of these bohras about their own fate if they believe anything other than what is being dished out in these lisaan-e-dawat bayaans.
I had the opportunity to attend one such bayaan about a decade ago. I sat there for over two hours staring at the clock. The longest I have stared at the clock, ever!! I understood very little. Only one thing has stayed with me from everything the Syedna said that day - "Khuda hamaare Hussain na ghum sivay biju gham na aape." Every two minutes the idiots sitting next to the Syedna would start lamenting and thumping their chests and all followed suit. And then when the time of Zuhr was almost about to end, every one scrambled to stand for prayer and within 30 seconds the namaaz was done. Baatin and Taawil has been adopted to such an extent that it is not used to replace Islam!!
Your input is absolutely relevant. It infacts hits the nail on the head. Taawil is used (abused) by tripplehorns and their likes to fool simple minded bohras into servitude. By telling them how the first three khalifas will be risen from their graves by this Imam, they are instilling fear into the hearts of these bohras about their own fate if they believe anything other than what is being dished out in these lisaan-e-dawat bayaans.
I had the opportunity to attend one such bayaan about a decade ago. I sat there for over two hours staring at the clock. The longest I have stared at the clock, ever!! I understood very little. Only one thing has stayed with me from everything the Syedna said that day - "Khuda hamaare Hussain na ghum sivay biju gham na aape." Every two minutes the idiots sitting next to the Syedna would start lamenting and thumping their chests and all followed suit. And then when the time of Zuhr was almost about to end, every one scrambled to stand for prayer and within 30 seconds the namaaz was done. Baatin and Taawil has been adopted to such an extent that it is not used to replace Islam!!
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Correction:
Baatin and Taawil has been adopted to such an extent that it is now used to replace Islam!!
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Baatin and Taawil has been adopted to such an extent that it is now used to replace Islam!!
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Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Porus,
I'm all for respecting and understanding traditions - reformists are particularly more sensitive to this than the orthodox bohras. My objection is when we start making the baatin aspect of religion as the holy grail of being a bohra.
There are two issues here. One is the history and traditions, and the other is purveyors and dispensers of those traditions. There is a radical disconnect between the two in the current scenario. What I was trying to point out in my post above is that when Sayedna saheb spews the baatini stuff he comes across as hypocritical and all his talk amounts as mumbo jumbo and is taken as such.
I'm all for respecting and understanding traditions - reformists are particularly more sensitive to this than the orthodox bohras. My objection is when we start making the baatin aspect of religion as the holy grail of being a bohra.
There are two issues here. One is the history and traditions, and the other is purveyors and dispensers of those traditions. There is a radical disconnect between the two in the current scenario. What I was trying to point out in my post above is that when Sayedna saheb spews the baatini stuff he comes across as hypocritical and all his talk amounts as mumbo jumbo and is taken as such.
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Humsafar,
Most Bohras will go to their graves without knowing anything about baatin and that will not make them anything less than Bohras. Knowledge of baatin not required but the appreciation of its pivotal role in the interpretation of Islam as taught and practiced by Bohra divines is necessary to lead a practical ‘non-hypocritical’ Bohra life.
This lack of appreciation causes many to dismiss this as mumbo-jumbo. However, these need to be understood in terms how these ideas would be explained to initiates.
An example is a vivid description of the “Haveli” of Fatima Zahra in paradise with velvet rugs and furniture embossed with gold, silver and pearls, emeralds and other precious stones; and, how, when she goes past in her carriage, all the angels stand to attention with their gazes directed to earth. You can dismiss this or search for meaning behind the words.
Another dramatic example is this description of the Day of Judgment from Quran. Why don’t Muslims dismiss this as mumbo jumbo?
On that Day, there will be faces radiant with bliss
Well-pleased with their labor
In a lofty garden
Where they will hear no idle talk
With a flowing spring
Raised couches
Goblets placed before them
Cushions set in rows, and
Carpets spread
(Surat al-Ghashiyah 88:8-16)
It would not be right to go on rubbishing Quran and claim to reform Islam. Neither would it be right to rubbish the fundamental beliefs of Bohras and then claim to reform Bohras. However, I agree that in both cases, there are hypocrites who claim to preach and follow religion and yet are obviously against its teachings.
This discussion about inner aspect of religion is not the main concern of Bohras on day-to-day level. I was only pointing out the need to be appreciative of that aspect.
Most Bohras will go to their graves without knowing anything about baatin and that will not make them anything less than Bohras. Knowledge of baatin not required but the appreciation of its pivotal role in the interpretation of Islam as taught and practiced by Bohra divines is necessary to lead a practical ‘non-hypocritical’ Bohra life.
This lack of appreciation causes many to dismiss this as mumbo-jumbo. However, these need to be understood in terms how these ideas would be explained to initiates.
An example is a vivid description of the “Haveli” of Fatima Zahra in paradise with velvet rugs and furniture embossed with gold, silver and pearls, emeralds and other precious stones; and, how, when she goes past in her carriage, all the angels stand to attention with their gazes directed to earth. You can dismiss this or search for meaning behind the words.
Another dramatic example is this description of the Day of Judgment from Quran. Why don’t Muslims dismiss this as mumbo jumbo?
On that Day, there will be faces radiant with bliss
Well-pleased with their labor
In a lofty garden
Where they will hear no idle talk
With a flowing spring
Raised couches
Goblets placed before them
Cushions set in rows, and
Carpets spread
(Surat al-Ghashiyah 88:8-16)
It would not be right to go on rubbishing Quran and claim to reform Islam. Neither would it be right to rubbish the fundamental beliefs of Bohras and then claim to reform Bohras. However, I agree that in both cases, there are hypocrites who claim to preach and follow religion and yet are obviously against its teachings.
This discussion about inner aspect of religion is not the main concern of Bohras on day-to-day level. I was only pointing out the need to be appreciative of that aspect.
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Doesn't the tripplehorn know that Muslims consider quran to be the word of God? Is the Dai God? A she god with three horns?Why don’t Muslims dismiss this as mumbo jumbo?
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Porus,
speaking to a lot of conservatives, i m told that i shud have "faith"...not in God..no thats not enough...but in the Dai.......my question is does Ismailism require havin "faith" in the dai.....
speaking to a lot of conservatives, i m told that i shud have "faith"...not in God..no thats not enough...but in the Dai.......my question is does Ismailism require havin "faith" in the dai.....
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
the present dai is not a scholar unlike his father, who was a very intelligent man albeit an evil genius.
it is well known that this syedna is lost for words when his papers fly away. i have personally observed this some 30 years ago at a vaez.
if there are others writing his bayaans, then what is this hullabaloo by the amils all over the world analyzing each and every word of his bayaans after every major event, as if his words are like rose petals from the quran itself?
i remember the amil here, going into the apparent taawil behind these words of the syedna: tame mane hamesha yaad karo cho, evij reete tame badha maara nazar maa cho.
he spent a good hour elaborating on the hidden meanings and greatness of the syedna over these words!!! what crap and outright sycophancy!
now the taheris are asked to recite the quran by heart and to minutely study the speeches of the dai, when it should be the other way around.!
it is well known that this syedna is lost for words when his papers fly away. i have personally observed this some 30 years ago at a vaez.
if there are others writing his bayaans, then what is this hullabaloo by the amils all over the world analyzing each and every word of his bayaans after every major event, as if his words are like rose petals from the quran itself?
i remember the amil here, going into the apparent taawil behind these words of the syedna: tame mane hamesha yaad karo cho, evij reete tame badha maara nazar maa cho.
he spent a good hour elaborating on the hidden meanings and greatness of the syedna over these words!!! what crap and outright sycophancy!
now the taheris are asked to recite the quran by heart and to minutely study the speeches of the dai, when it should be the other way around.!
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Porus,
Your point about appreciating the intricacies of Bohra faith is well taken. But at the popular level - no matter what field you take - religion, science, music - their finer points are hardly ever understood, much less appreciated.
Esoteric aspects of religion will always remain the province of the few - intellectuals and scholars - and those who do not understand them will rubbish them as mumbo-jumbo. Unfortunately, that's the way it's always been.
Your point about appreciating the intricacies of Bohra faith is well taken. But at the popular level - no matter what field you take - religion, science, music - their finer points are hardly ever understood, much less appreciated.
Esoteric aspects of religion will always remain the province of the few - intellectuals and scholars - and those who do not understand them will rubbish them as mumbo-jumbo. Unfortunately, that's the way it's always been.
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
It is unlikely Syedna prepares his own bayans - most likely his sons do it. Although since he reads them, to all his followers thats the holy grail.
Regarding his amazing 'crisp voice' - the voice does not rapidly deteriorate with age. How many old people (non-smokers) do you know who have lost their voice? If anything, it gets louder. Regardless, I heard his sermon recently after many years and his voice wasn't the same.
Regarding his amazing 'crisp voice' - the voice does not rapidly deteriorate with age. How many old people (non-smokers) do you know who have lost their voice? If anything, it gets louder. Regardless, I heard his sermon recently after many years and his voice wasn't the same.
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
who said his voice is crisp??
since the last 10-15 years its very difficult to understand what he is saying unless one really concentrates..he slurs and mixes his words and sounds, that often it is indecipherable..
since the last 10-15 years its very difficult to understand what he is saying unless one really concentrates..he slurs and mixes his words and sounds, that often it is indecipherable..
Re: Who prepares Moula's bayaans
Can we recommend the Kothar to employ DAVID FRUM, the Bush ex-speech writer and an ex-Canadian (who plagiarised for Bush about the AXIS OF EVIL" ) in his speech to the Nation. He was fired when Frum's wife gloated and boasted to the world that her husband had drafted that infamous speech.