I have heard a lot of people talk about the literal interpretation of the quran and how it is causing untold miseries in the muslim world.
At the risk of sounding ignorant I will ask what people mean by the "literal interpretation of the quran". Explanations with supporting ayahs will be appreciated. And how the muslim ummah is suffering because of these.
If we can put the conflicts in Iraq and Palestine into context, it would simplify things a lot.
Literal Intepretation of the quran
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
anajmi,
I thought we had discussed this already:
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 2;t=000404
I thought we had discussed this already:
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 2;t=000404
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Not really. We mentioned that the literal interpretation has caused all these problems, we never discussed the ayahs that have been literally interpreted and how or if the whole quran has been literally interpreted, how exactly has that been done.
What literal interpretation of the quran has lead to these problems is what I want to discuss so that we can figure out where the issue is.
I am not sure if I have made myself clear but that is the closest I can get, I guess.
What literal interpretation of the quran has lead to these problems is what I want to discuss so that we can figure out where the issue is.
I am not sure if I have made myself clear but that is the closest I can get, I guess.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
If you are referring to the discussion of jihad then I am afraid the muslims have not interpreted the quran literally.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
I don't think one can establish a direct one-to-one correlation between specific ayahs of the Quran and "miseries of the Muslim world'. Nonetheless, it's an interesting subject and one can make a case for it if one got down to it. But I'm afraid I neither have the time nor interest to undertake this task. Besides I'm just a lay reader (English translation) of the Quran - (which is not a bad thing. The Quran was meant for lay reading - it is the mullahs who have created an awe around it). One needs considerable research and deep study of the Quran and of Muslim societies to do full justice to the subject. This will make for a challenging subject for a thesis. Any scholars out there???
But here are few stray thoughts...
First we have to define what do we mean by "literal translation". As I understand it, it means taking the text at face value. A simple interpretation of the text. But we know that the Quran is largely allegorical, and employs metaphorical/rhetorical devices to convey its message.
So one should be mindful of its literally style, and also of its content and historical specificity. One would be interpreting the Quran "literally" if one ignored one or both of the caveats below.
1) The Quran was revealed at a specific historical time, and of necessity reflects the biases, values and culture of that age (tribal Arabia).
2) Its content, too, for the most part addresses the issues specific to that society: religious wars, poverty, orphans, widows, charity, inheritance, etc.
Of course, if one takes the Quran to be the book of/from God and therefore absolute, eternal and for all time, then one is left with a rigid, petrified testament. From this perspective, its interpretation and application will likewise be rigid and obscurantist.
But if one takes the Quran to be an important historical document which carries some eternal truths and values - but is NOT absolute, eternal and timeless - then one has a working, living guide. From this perspective, its interpretation and application will likewise be contemporary and relevant.
Unfortunately, Muslims are stuck with the first perspective - thanks largely to mullahs, powerful vested interests and ignorant, illiterate masses.
My two cents. I don't think I'll have anything more to contribute on this subject.
But here are few stray thoughts...
First we have to define what do we mean by "literal translation". As I understand it, it means taking the text at face value. A simple interpretation of the text. But we know that the Quran is largely allegorical, and employs metaphorical/rhetorical devices to convey its message.
So one should be mindful of its literally style, and also of its content and historical specificity. One would be interpreting the Quran "literally" if one ignored one or both of the caveats below.
1) The Quran was revealed at a specific historical time, and of necessity reflects the biases, values and culture of that age (tribal Arabia).
2) Its content, too, for the most part addresses the issues specific to that society: religious wars, poverty, orphans, widows, charity, inheritance, etc.
Of course, if one takes the Quran to be the book of/from God and therefore absolute, eternal and for all time, then one is left with a rigid, petrified testament. From this perspective, its interpretation and application will likewise be rigid and obscurantist.
But if one takes the Quran to be an important historical document which carries some eternal truths and values - but is NOT absolute, eternal and timeless - then one has a working, living guide. From this perspective, its interpretation and application will likewise be contemporary and relevant.
Unfortunately, Muslims are stuck with the first perspective - thanks largely to mullahs, powerful vested interests and ignorant, illiterate masses.
My two cents. I don't think I'll have anything more to contribute on this subject.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Brother Humsafar,
Thank you for the reply, by the way, it was exactly as I thought it was going to be!
Just one more question - Do YOU believe that the Quran is the word of God? or do you think it is just another historical document written by who knows who?
Thank you for the reply, by the way, it was exactly as I thought it was going to be!
Just one more question - Do YOU believe that the Quran is the word of God? or do you think it is just another historical document written by who knows who?
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Just one more suggestion, next time you talk about the literal interpretation having landed muslims into trouble, remember that you do not know anything about it.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
anajmi,
To answer your question: Whether one believes in the Quran to be the word of God or not is entirely a matter of faith. Nobody can be sure. It's provenance or source is immaterial, in my view at least, so long as its content is relevant and is used as a guiding light.
As for your suggestion, I agree with you. I do not understand a lot things - the world being so complex, varied and intertwined. This much I know though that there can be no simple cause to the perplexing realities around us. I believe that literal interpretation and/or misinterpretation of religious texts (not just of the Quran) leads to a lot of problems. But it's never just the religion alone. There's a whole battery of causes and economic and political pulls and pressures.
To seek a correlation between an ayah of the Quran and a Muslim tragedy is not only simplistic but also simple-minded. Even so, it does not invalidate my assessment that rigid view of religion produces rigid societies. Take the issue of hijab, for example. Nowhere in the Quran it is mentioned that women should cover themselves from head to toe - even their faces in some instance. But it's interpretation as such (owing to tribal custom of that time) has led to a lot grief and oppression of women. Triple talaq would be another example. Chopping of limbs would be yet another. Polygamy yet another.
If I had time I would elaborate on these. But the point being, it's not just the misinterpretation which is the cause - prevailing social mores, patriarchy, politics, economic conditions etc. all contribute to prepare a cocktail of causes.
The problem is that you are as possessive about Islam as your friend Average Bohra is about his beloved America. Essentially, both of you are cast in the same mould - seeking simple answers to complex issues.
To answer your question: Whether one believes in the Quran to be the word of God or not is entirely a matter of faith. Nobody can be sure. It's provenance or source is immaterial, in my view at least, so long as its content is relevant and is used as a guiding light.
As for your suggestion, I agree with you. I do not understand a lot things - the world being so complex, varied and intertwined. This much I know though that there can be no simple cause to the perplexing realities around us. I believe that literal interpretation and/or misinterpretation of religious texts (not just of the Quran) leads to a lot of problems. But it's never just the religion alone. There's a whole battery of causes and economic and political pulls and pressures.
To seek a correlation between an ayah of the Quran and a Muslim tragedy is not only simplistic but also simple-minded. Even so, it does not invalidate my assessment that rigid view of religion produces rigid societies. Take the issue of hijab, for example. Nowhere in the Quran it is mentioned that women should cover themselves from head to toe - even their faces in some instance. But it's interpretation as such (owing to tribal custom of that time) has led to a lot grief and oppression of women. Triple talaq would be another example. Chopping of limbs would be yet another. Polygamy yet another.
If I had time I would elaborate on these. But the point being, it's not just the misinterpretation which is the cause - prevailing social mores, patriarchy, politics, economic conditions etc. all contribute to prepare a cocktail of causes.
The problem is that you are as possessive about Islam as your friend Average Bohra is about his beloved America. Essentially, both of you are cast in the same mould - seeking simple answers to complex issues.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
What does Islam say about
HOMOSEXUALITY,
Can some one let me know, plz.
HOMOSEXUALITY,
Can some one let me know, plz.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Humsafar,
I don't come to this board for answers, simply discussion and exchange of ideas and even that can be taxing at times with the barrage of invectives and personal attacks. I enjoy debate and discussion with those with a differing or opposing point of view.
I agree that these are complex issues with the truth often being in the gray rather than black or white. Hope you can better appreciate and acknowledge that your simplistic American bashing did not take into account the complexities of foreign relations, self-interest, world events and differing interpretations of history.
Regards,
-AB
I don't come to this board for answers, simply discussion and exchange of ideas and even that can be taxing at times with the barrage of invectives and personal attacks. I enjoy debate and discussion with those with a differing or opposing point of view.
I agree that these are complex issues with the truth often being in the gray rather than black or white. Hope you can better appreciate and acknowledge that your simplistic American bashing did not take into account the complexities of foreign relations, self-interest, world events and differing interpretations of history.
Regards,
-AB
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Correction: You come here to "provide" not seek simple answers.
And you just validated that by labeling my critique of America as "American bashing" - one can't get more simple-minded than that.
Sure there are a variety of reasons as to why America does things that it does. But none of this can take away from the fact that America is an imperialist nation - and a brutal, hypocritical and shameless one at that.
The complexity behind an action cannot become the defence or justification of that action. That's precisely what you are trying to do - turning it into an apologia for your beloved country. I understand that your patriotism impels you to defend your country. But perhaps you are not aware that the concept "my country, right or wrong" is so 18th century. And it seems you haven't heard what good old Dr Johnson said, that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".
And you just validated that by labeling my critique of America as "American bashing" - one can't get more simple-minded than that.
Sure there are a variety of reasons as to why America does things that it does. But none of this can take away from the fact that America is an imperialist nation - and a brutal, hypocritical and shameless one at that.
The complexity behind an action cannot become the defence or justification of that action. That's precisely what you are trying to do - turning it into an apologia for your beloved country. I understand that your patriotism impels you to defend your country. But perhaps you are not aware that the concept "my country, right or wrong" is so 18th century. And it seems you haven't heard what good old Dr Johnson said, that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Humsafar,
I confront reality and don’t suffer from idealistic delusions of fantasy-land Utopias. Spewing biased, pretentious punditry in a vacuum without an element of objectivity is not my thing. I will take American imperialism over fascism any day; Germany flourished because of American imperialism, Sudan could use a healthy dose about now. I would apply a very small dose to UAE to prevent the slavery and death of starved and exploited Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi toddlers being exported to be Camel Jockeys. Imperialism is not a bad word when applied to societies and countries that eventually benefit from it. Your attention is better focused on societies and countries that would actually benefit from dreaded imperialism; get my drift?
The fact that we allow these dreadful regimes to exist while criticizing American imperialism, is the real hypocrisy exposed.
Even a pundit can occasionally benefit from the notion of context and perspective. You ought to try it sometime…..
"Utopia is one of the casualties of the twentieth century. Not only can it not be found, but the attempt to create it leads to disaster, totalitarianism, and war at its worst. As we try to square the circle, we realize we cannot fully acheive the ideal. There will be lapses; there will be no shortage of problems; conflicts remain a source of progress which needs to be channelled, not closed. Only open societies can be good societies."
--Ralf Dahrendor
I confront reality and don’t suffer from idealistic delusions of fantasy-land Utopias. Spewing biased, pretentious punditry in a vacuum without an element of objectivity is not my thing. I will take American imperialism over fascism any day; Germany flourished because of American imperialism, Sudan could use a healthy dose about now. I would apply a very small dose to UAE to prevent the slavery and death of starved and exploited Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi toddlers being exported to be Camel Jockeys. Imperialism is not a bad word when applied to societies and countries that eventually benefit from it. Your attention is better focused on societies and countries that would actually benefit from dreaded imperialism; get my drift?
The fact that we allow these dreadful regimes to exist while criticizing American imperialism, is the real hypocrisy exposed.
Even a pundit can occasionally benefit from the notion of context and perspective. You ought to try it sometime…..
"Utopia is one of the casualties of the twentieth century. Not only can it not be found, but the attempt to create it leads to disaster, totalitarianism, and war at its worst. As we try to square the circle, we realize we cannot fully acheive the ideal. There will be lapses; there will be no shortage of problems; conflicts remain a source of progress which needs to be channelled, not closed. Only open societies can be good societies."
--Ralf Dahrendor
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
AB,
Good for you that you are at peace with your sense of "objectivity, context and perspective". I can see that all this has inspired you to get worked up about child camel jockeys in a corrupt, profligate sheikhdom propped up by your government, but not about the massacre of innocent children in Iraq perpetrated by your military. This kind of moral pathology needs no further comment.
And what was all that talk about Utopia about? When you run out of argument you accuse me of being Utopian. Yet another example of simplistic formulation.
I rest my case.
Good for you that you are at peace with your sense of "objectivity, context and perspective". I can see that all this has inspired you to get worked up about child camel jockeys in a corrupt, profligate sheikhdom propped up by your government, but not about the massacre of innocent children in Iraq perpetrated by your military. This kind of moral pathology needs no further comment.
And what was all that talk about Utopia about? When you run out of argument you accuse me of being Utopian. Yet another example of simplistic formulation.
I rest my case.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Correction: And what was all that talk of Utopia about?
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Brother Humsafar,
I am not sure if you answered my question with a yes or a no.
So I will repeat my question - Do YOU believe that the Quran is the word of God? or do you think it is just another historical document written by who knows who?
I am not sure if you answered my question with a yes or a no.
So I will repeat my question - Do YOU believe that the Quran is the word of God? or do you think it is just another historical document written by who knows who?
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
anajmi,
Okay, if this will satisfy you:
Answer to first question: NO.
Answer to second question: Yes (I said "important" not "another" historical document.)
Okay, if this will satisfy you:
Answer to first question: NO.
Answer to second question: Yes (I said "important" not "another" historical document.)
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Brother Humsafar,
Thank you for your reply. Your answer to that question actually answers a lot of questions.
The next time I have a debate about the interpretations of the quran with you, I will remember that.
Thank you for your reply. Your answer to that question actually answers a lot of questions.
The next time I have a debate about the interpretations of the quran with you, I will remember that.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
This is the post that I started to discuss "Literal Interpretations of the Quran"
I would like to present some analogies as to what the "scholars" of the "literal interpretations" of the quran say about the "literal interpretations" of the quran.
A lot of years ago when I was young, my mom said "Go to school". So I went to school. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and went to school so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Then she told me, "Study hard and pass your exam", so I studied hard and passed my exam. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and studied hard and passed my exam, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Then my mom told me "Go to college", so I went to college. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and went to college, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Then my mom said "Find a good job", so I found a good job. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and found a good job, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Then my mom said "Now get married", so I got married. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and got married, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Now let us come to the quran.
The quran says, "Establish regular prayer." So true muslims establish regular prayers. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that muslims have literally interpreted the quran and established regular prayers, so they are Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Just an example of Ignorance/Hypocrisy of the "Scholars" of the "Literal Interpretations" of the quran.
If there is anyone out there who has an example of an ayah which has been literally interpreted to mean something other than what it was supposed to mean, please post it over here with your interpretation so that all those who are ignorant can be enlightened.
I would like to present some analogies as to what the "scholars" of the "literal interpretations" of the quran say about the "literal interpretations" of the quran.
A lot of years ago when I was young, my mom said "Go to school". So I went to school. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and went to school so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Then she told me, "Study hard and pass your exam", so I studied hard and passed my exam. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and studied hard and passed my exam, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Then my mom told me "Go to college", so I went to college. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and went to college, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Then my mom said "Find a good job", so I found a good job. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and found a good job, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Then my mom said "Now get married", so I got married. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and got married, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Now let us come to the quran.
The quran says, "Establish regular prayer." So true muslims establish regular prayers. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that muslims have literally interpreted the quran and established regular prayers, so they are Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.
Just an example of Ignorance/Hypocrisy of the "Scholars" of the "Literal Interpretations" of the quran.
If there is anyone out there who has an example of an ayah which has been literally interpreted to mean something other than what it was supposed to mean, please post it over here with your interpretation so that all those who are ignorant can be enlightened.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
If after going to college your mom had to tell you to "find a good job" and you didn't figure that out on your own, then you are better off taking the Quran literally as it would be risky for you otherwise.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Well, I always knew I could rely on you to come up with something enlightening for all of us. You are a scholar of literal interpretations after all.
And you do take things literally don't you
And you do take things literally don't you
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
I got a call from a friend of mine yesterday asking for the $10,000 that he had loaned me a few months back. My wife, now she is a "Scholar" of "Literal Interpretations", told me that I should not take what my friend told me literally and to tell him that his money was being spent by the American Government for freeing the people of Iraq and that he should ask the people of Iraq to pay it to him either here or in the hereafter. Smart woman my wife!!
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
An ayah of the quran about the Hijab
024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
Can somebody who knows Arabic please let us know if this translation is accurate and can somebody who knows about literal interpretations of the quran give his/her own interpretation of this ayah?
024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
Can somebody who knows Arabic please let us know if this translation is accurate and can somebody who knows about literal interpretations of the quran give his/her own interpretation of this ayah?
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
well.... anyone.....
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Anajmi
Apply the same Ayah to ordinary life of a woman and try to rationalize it and see what the answer comes.
Please note that Muslims women are not only in Middle East, Sub-Continent, Europe, North America, Cental Asia .... but everywhere. in some parts women work, some not, some work because they need to, so for fun or passing time, some want to learn and grow wiser, some want to be independent, and and
The Ayah may have been true 1400 years ago word by word. Today, the meaning should be something different specially when the location of Ayah was Middle East. Apply this Muslim women of Sub-continent or North America. COMPARE. There is a huge difference. The Ayah was meant and was taken as Women were kept indoors for centuries. They did not work, or use to get education, it is even today in Saudi Arabia. The reasons could be many and valid. But today, some Muslim women work, they are out and they are in Hijab too, but they interact with men and do things which they would not have done otherwise.
Anajmi, u r a scholar. What I am trying to say is that the meanings change due to their relevance and we should not take word for word OR apply it as it was applied 1400 years ago.
Apply the same Ayah to ordinary life of a woman and try to rationalize it and see what the answer comes.
Please note that Muslims women are not only in Middle East, Sub-Continent, Europe, North America, Cental Asia .... but everywhere. in some parts women work, some not, some work because they need to, so for fun or passing time, some want to learn and grow wiser, some want to be independent, and and
The Ayah may have been true 1400 years ago word by word. Today, the meaning should be something different specially when the location of Ayah was Middle East. Apply this Muslim women of Sub-continent or North America. COMPARE. There is a huge difference. The Ayah was meant and was taken as Women were kept indoors for centuries. They did not work, or use to get education, it is even today in Saudi Arabia. The reasons could be many and valid. But today, some Muslim women work, they are out and they are in Hijab too, but they interact with men and do things which they would not have done otherwise.
Anajmi, u r a scholar. What I am trying to say is that the meanings change due to their relevance and we should not take word for word OR apply it as it was applied 1400 years ago.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
JC,
Let me quote the ayah for you once again. It is amazing how people do not even read and assume to know 1400 years of history
"024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. "
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;" so this 1400 years ago meant lower the gaze and guard your modesty but now it means do not lower your gaze and do not guard your modesty, or that you do not need to since most men these days are homos? or that you will die of hunger or you will be raped? specially in the middle east?
"that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;" and this was ok 1400 years but now they have to display their beauty and ornaments else the society with people like you living in it will outcast them and they will be raped and humiliated specially in the middle east?
"that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs," obviously 1400 years ago it was ok to hide their beauty from everyone else except those mentioned but these days the beauty of women should be on display 24x7 as they need not be afraid of sexual predators since they are all homos now?
And ofcourse if they did not draw a veil over their bosoms how the hell will the society sell shaving cream??
"And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. "
Well Allah is talking to believers 1400 years ago, if the quran had been revealed today it would've probably said O ye homos you will attain bliss.
Let me quote the ayah for you once again. It is amazing how people do not even read and assume to know 1400 years of history
"024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. "
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;" so this 1400 years ago meant lower the gaze and guard your modesty but now it means do not lower your gaze and do not guard your modesty, or that you do not need to since most men these days are homos? or that you will die of hunger or you will be raped? specially in the middle east?
"that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;" and this was ok 1400 years but now they have to display their beauty and ornaments else the society with people like you living in it will outcast them and they will be raped and humiliated specially in the middle east?
"that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs," obviously 1400 years ago it was ok to hide their beauty from everyone else except those mentioned but these days the beauty of women should be on display 24x7 as they need not be afraid of sexual predators since they are all homos now?
And ofcourse if they did not draw a veil over their bosoms how the hell will the society sell shaving cream??
"And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. "
Well Allah is talking to believers 1400 years ago, if the quran had been revealed today it would've probably said O ye homos you will attain bliss.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Some interesting stats
Studies suggest anywhere between 40-70% of women and 10-20% of men have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace.
31% of the female workers claimed to have been harassed at work
7% of the male workers claimed to have been harassed at work
62% of targets took no action
100% of women claimed the harasser was a man
59% of men claimed the harasser was a woman
41% of men claimed the harasser was another man
A survey conducted by the American Association of University Women (AAUW) on 1632 students aged 8-11 revealed:
85% of girls have been sexually harassed
76% of boys have been sexually harassed
31% of girls experienced harassment "often"
18% of boys experienced harassment "often"
13% of girls reported being "forced to do something sexual at school other than kissing"
9% of boys reported being "forced to do something sexual at school other than kissing"
Girls were five times more likely to find the incidents disturbing and three times more likely to feel the harassment had affected their grades.
25% of girls were harassed by school employees
10% of boys were harassed by school employees
A survey conducted by the American Psychological Association on female graduate students revealed:
12.7% have experienced sexual harassment
21% have avoided classes for fear of being sexually harassed
11% have tried to report an incident of sexual harassment
3% have dropped a course because of sexual harassment
80% were aware of sexual harassment occurring in their school
75% were aware of sexual harassment between students
50% were aware of sexual harassment of students by faculty.
Oh and I forgot to mention, this was happening in the 21st century. Thank god that women are still free to go to work in Hijab.
And mind you I have nothing against women that have to go to work so that they can take care of their families. These women constitute 80% of the working women in America. And I blame the men for their condition. The remaining, well, I guess they deserve what they get.
One interesting piece the number of sexual harassment complaints filed by men has more than tripled in recent years.
I guess the number of homos in the 21st century is increasing.
Studies suggest anywhere between 40-70% of women and 10-20% of men have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace.
31% of the female workers claimed to have been harassed at work
7% of the male workers claimed to have been harassed at work
62% of targets took no action
100% of women claimed the harasser was a man
59% of men claimed the harasser was a woman
41% of men claimed the harasser was another man
A survey conducted by the American Association of University Women (AAUW) on 1632 students aged 8-11 revealed:
85% of girls have been sexually harassed
76% of boys have been sexually harassed
31% of girls experienced harassment "often"
18% of boys experienced harassment "often"
13% of girls reported being "forced to do something sexual at school other than kissing"
9% of boys reported being "forced to do something sexual at school other than kissing"
Girls were five times more likely to find the incidents disturbing and three times more likely to feel the harassment had affected their grades.
25% of girls were harassed by school employees
10% of boys were harassed by school employees
A survey conducted by the American Psychological Association on female graduate students revealed:
12.7% have experienced sexual harassment
21% have avoided classes for fear of being sexually harassed
11% have tried to report an incident of sexual harassment
3% have dropped a course because of sexual harassment
80% were aware of sexual harassment occurring in their school
75% were aware of sexual harassment between students
50% were aware of sexual harassment of students by faculty.
Oh and I forgot to mention, this was happening in the 21st century. Thank god that women are still free to go to work in Hijab.
And mind you I have nothing against women that have to go to work so that they can take care of their families. These women constitute 80% of the working women in America. And I blame the men for their condition. The remaining, well, I guess they deserve what they get.
One interesting piece the number of sexual harassment complaints filed by men has more than tripled in recent years.
I guess the number of homos in the 21st century is increasing.
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
If more women at work wear Hijab, people will certainly think that she's got either a husband or a brother who is a terrorist and they will stay away from her 
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Average Bohra
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Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
If you are trying to make a point with these statistics then please post statistics for the country you are comparing these to, or else this is yet another meaningless post from you. Since you posted data from American Association of University Women please provide data from Saudi Arabian Association of University Women or Afghani Association of University Women (an oxymoron isn’t it 
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Truth is, Islamic countries don’t even bother collecting this data as they don’t give a damn about sexual harassment, not that it doesn't exist.
) Truth is, Islamic countries don’t even bother collecting this data as they don’t give a damn about sexual harassment, not that it doesn't exist.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
Since “ordinarily” is not defined here, it is relative to the times and subject to interpretation. What ordinarily appears in 2005 is different from what ordinarily appeared in 1400. This phrase, alternately, requires the women to stay current with fashion and design trends, but not get ahead of them.that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof
That phrase necessitated the invention of the Bra, and now all bra wearing woman are in compliance.
"that they should draw their veils over their bosoms”
Beauty as used here appears to synonymous with a woman’s bosom. In this context I am afraid I am more conservative than what is stated here. I feel that they should only be displayed to the husbands, let the rest of the damn family members fend for themselves !“that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs
Re: Literal Intepretation of the quran
You are right, what ordinarily appears in 2005 is a lot more than what ordinarily used to appear 1400 years agoSince “ordinarily” is not defined here, it is relative to the times and subject to interpretation. What ordinarily appears in 2005 is different from what ordinarily appeared in 1400. This phrase, alternately, requires the women to stay current with fashion and design trends, but not get ahead of them.
Well, you are taking the last part a bit more literally. Beauty may not be synonymous with the bosoms (unless you are a pervert). I will be a bit more polite and say that what is referred to over here is the countenance.
As far as Saudi is concerned, if you find something, you are welcome to post it over here, but then again I know you are against posting anything from elsewhere so I guess we just have to trust the Saudis.