Ismaili Immamat

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
observer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 5:01 am

Ismaili Immamat

#1

Unread post by observer » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:37 pm

This is an interesting site.

http://www.maki-and-associates.co.jp/e/project/44.html

Visionary leaders can always take a community to the next level. Of course now some one will tell me to go and join the Agakhanis.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#2

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:50 pm

AS

If one values religiocity of Islam by beutiful building then one should become whatever other then simple Muslims. Prophets mosque was shed of thatched roof and mud floor.

If you want to be Ismaili then check this out"The Heritage Web Site of Ismailis"

Especially Doctrine section.

You will find nuggets like this
shamsu
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 616

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:15 pm Post subject: YES BUT NO

-------------------------------------------------

THE QURAN WHICH IS WITH MY MOWLA IS COMPLETE

THE BOOK THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD CALLS THE QURAN IS NOT.

IN FACT IMAM SMS FARMANS MENTION THAT THERE WERE THINGS TAKENOUT AND INSERTED. ALSO THINGS FROM THE FRONT WERE PUT BEHIND AND THINGS FROM BEHIND IN FRONT.

IMAM SMS CALLS IT USMANS KITAB.

I THINK THE FARMAN IS FARMAN NUMBER 20 OR 21 IN KIM PART 1 FIRST EDITION.

THE EDITIONS OF KIM PART 1 AFTER SECOND WORLD WAR DO NOT HAVE CERTAIN SENTENCES IN THEM ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

SHAMS
Just look around

Wasalaam
.

observer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#3

Unread post by observer » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:45 pm

Are you suggesting we must not aspire for better things or should we be content with a thatched roof and mud floor.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#4

Unread post by porus » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:42 pm

That building is described as a secular facility to represent Aga Khan's presence in Canada. It does not purport to express any 'religiosity', whether Muslim or non-Muslim.

For MF to throw a red herring seems very mischievous.

The building is no more 'religious' than the tent city of Mina or massive modern renovations of the Haram in Makka. They are all built for convenience and aesthetics.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#5

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:50 am

.
br. Observer
AS

I am actively involved in few Masjid projects. What I see is waste of money in elaborate and expensive decorations. Money wasted building domes and minerates which serve no useful purpose anymore.

I have no objection to providing comfortable space for prayers and communal activities.

Maki & Assoc. are great Architects but you pay premium when you hire prima Donnas of Architect word. I had privilege of peer reviewing one of their projects. It was good but wasteful in space and finishes. Remember Gahrey’s much acclaimed building in Cambridge, MA leaks water when it rains.

Wasalaam
.

muhammad khan
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#6

Unread post by muhammad khan » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:01 pm

Salam MF,

The building is a good example of an islamic architecture, and this is what Aga Khan says about Islamic Architecture.

"This colloquium covers a range of Muslim expressions in the Arts, across time and space. Some among the eminent scholars present today have observed that, while the Qur’an may not propound a doctrine of Islamic art or material culture, it does offer imaginative scope in this direction. From early on, its passages have inspired works of art and architecture, and shaped attitudes and norms that have guided the development of Muslim artistic traditions.

In this context, would it not also be relevant to consider how, above all, it has been the Qur’anic notion of the universe as an expression of Allah’s will and creation that has inspired, in diverse Muslim communities, generations of artists, scientists and philosophers? Scientific pursuits, philosophic inquiry and artistic endeavour are all seen as the response of the faithful to the recurring call of the Qur’an to ponder the creation as a way to understand Allah's benevolent majesty. As Sura al-Baqara proclaims: ‘Wherever you turn, there is the face of Allah’.

Does not the Qur’an challenge the artist, as much as the mystic, to go beyond the physical - the outward - so as to seek to unveil that which lies at the centre but gives life to the periphery? Is not a great work of art, like the ecstasy of the mystic, a gesture of the spirit, a stirring of the soul that comes from the attempt to experience a glimpse of, and an intimacy with, that which is ineffable and beyond being? "

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#7

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:19 pm

.
Dear Br. Khan
AS

I fail to see something Islamic in this building except pseudo glass dome. It is nice modern building. I also do not see any Islamic sounding names in consultants on the project. You mean to tell me that there are no qualified Muslim (Secular and or non secular) architects or consultants in North America?

I have been involved in Masjid projects where prisoner do not have enough funds and they are running from one place to other with begging bowl. We have at least 10 under funded projects in New England. Everybody wants to build Taj Mahal.

I recently advised one Shia community to go get prefab steel building and dress it up with stucco, save money and use it to held needy here and back home.

Wasalaam

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#8

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:29 am

.
Khan

Does your demi god AKA 'Bolta Quran' AKA 'Hazir Imam' know that Muslims are also suppose to turn towards Kaaba when they pray?
.

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#9

Unread post by JC » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:33 pm

I agree with MF.

We donot need 'Masjid Building', basically we need 'Masjid Feeling', 'Masjid Courage', 'Masjid Wisdom', and 'Masjid Soul'. Namaz may be prayed anywhere. What we forget today is the very concept of Masjid.

And we donot need Bolta Quran - we need a Quran who or which is practical, guiding, helping, resolving, and, and, ..... Bolta Quran will be quite one day, will not say a word, will lie down in two white sheets and made to rest 6 feet under..!!!!

And we donot need any Hazar or Ghaeb Imam. What we need are courageous leaders, leaders with farsight and courage, with honesty and sincerety who can serve and help. We donot need imams or rulers. And this 'leader' could be any one - you, me or anyone who has am qualifications.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#10

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:36 pm

Br. JC
AS

Ameen

Have a happy and devonal Jummah

Wasalaam
.

muhammad khan
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#11

Unread post by muhammad khan » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:22 am

This is my personal opinion (Not the opinion of ismailies)

The building appreciates the thoughts of those who believes in equal rights. It is a slap on the face of those who believe

Islam = Illiteracy
Islam= backwardness
Islam= 12th century
Islam = destruction
Islam = terrorism
Islam= the religion of the people who are left far behind in evolution
Islam= racism and partiality

This building gives a very good image to Islam.

Not only this building but also there are many other buildings that portray the same image of Islam. Some of those building are saifee hospital, hajj terminal of Saudi Arabia.

By selecting the best of the class architecture, we are not only conveying a message that Islam is not partial but also we are asking them to behave same way.

A good population of Ismaili community lives in Canada and this building helps them making their world less partial, less racist, and less hating towards Islam. I know this is not a solution and by constructing a very nice building and by setting up an example of impartiality we will not be able to decrease all the hate, but it will help a little.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#12

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:18 pm

Br. Khan
AS

Your post is interesting.

Br. Khan
AS

Your post is interesting.

You are repeating common myth that Mainstream Islam is what you have posted and deviant derivations of Islam such as Ismailism are progressive and therefore good.

My theory is Mainstream Islam is good and real one and people need education to come out of medieval thinking. Islam does not need revision or reinterpretation.

As far as building in question, there is nothing Islamic in its architecture. It is a nice looking modern building being built by and to promote extremely deviant sect. This sect is so different that it is like 'dark sewer water in Coca Cola bottle and bottler insists that it is a real thing or better then real thing.

Take care of yourself brother. Do not insist that Aga Khan promotes Islam. I wish he declares independence and stop pretending to be a Muslim. Please leave us Muslims alone, whatever we are.

Brothes we are not dumb A**es which you think we are or media promotes. Majority of are good and productive citizens of thi Duniya.

Check the following links, these are just samples and there are numerous other real Islamic architecture examples. We just do not have million $$$ publicity budget to toot our horn.

Islamic Society of Boston Cultural Center
http://www.isbcc.org/ISBCC03-19-01.htm

Islamic Center of Boston, Wayland, MA
http://www.icbwayland.org/BuildingExpansion/index.html
http://www.icbwayland.org/BuildingExpansion/plan.html
http://www.icbwayland.org/BuildingExpan ... index.html

Wasalaam
.

muhammad khan
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#13

Unread post by muhammad khan » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:30 am

Hi MF,

Before this I thought you were Sunni, but after reading some of your previous Shirk committing posts it sounded like you are wahabi.

I have many Sunni friends and they never claimed to the only truth on the earth and they never play to be Allah.

I wish he declares independence and stop pretending to be a Muslim. Please leave us Muslims alone, whatever we are.


Instead of wishing other good Muslims to go out of the fold why don't you go out of the fold and declares you religion as wahabi religion. Just by doing this more then billion Muslims will be able to live peacefully.

Aga khan's forefather who were the founder of Islam gave Aga khan rights to do what he is doing now. At least we believe this and we are not forcing anyone to believe what we believe in.

And please don't try to talk on behalf of all the sunnies because almost all the sunni's i know are good and they don't judge the faith of others.

And if entire world come in consensus that only wahabi version of Islam is true Islam and if anyone wants to call themselves muslims instead of allah subhantala, wahabis will judge their faith, then I will be the first person to declare myself non-muslim. Even if aga khan will instead me to be muslim at that time i will not be a muslim.

I can say the same thing. Please leave us muslims (more then billion Sunni, Shia, ....) along and you will make the world a better place to live.

I know what i said is wrong and you wahabies have right to interprete islam in your way. If done sincerely God will forgive you.

But think logically, what you are doing is diving Islam and forcing others to follow your way. When Allah Subhantallah showed his generosity on mankind by letting them understand Allah their own way, why do you guys instead others to see God as you see it. Even for most of the Sunnies, Wahabism does not make any sense.

I tried my best to explain you, while doing so if I made any mistake may Allah Subhanatallah forgive my mistake.

Allah Knows the Best,

Regards,
Muhammad

muhammad khan
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#14

Unread post by muhammad khan » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:39 am

Sorry for my spelling mistakes, my english is not good. I don't live in developed world.

Please Read

why don't you go out of the fold and declares you religion as wahabi religion. Just by doing this more then billion Muslims will be able to live peacefully.

As

why don't you go out of the fold and declare your religion as wahabi religion. Just by doing this more then billion Muslims will be able to live peacefully.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:06 pm

khanbhai,

I am glad to see you are learning the way of the smart ones. Wahabi, Wahabism, and Wahabi religion is the best counter argument. Do not be afraid to use it whenever and wherever you can. Anyone one says anything and you come back with "Wahabi". In fact the more you use "Wahabi" the more you will sound like you actually know what "Wahabi" means even if you don't have a clue. Remember, always begin an argument with "Wahabi" and end it with "Wahabism" or some variations thereof. But never finish a sentence without using "Wahabi".

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#16

Unread post by JC » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:33 pm

For whatever Whabism means or for whatever Whabis stand for or whosoever Wahabis are.

The only thing I know and understand that Islam in Saudi Arabia seems to be more logical, rational, easy to understand and follow. No doubt it has its limitations and flaws but this is the sect which has least objectionable things. All other sects are full of shirk, huge deviations from Islam, changes, illogical and irrational things.

I would be inclined to accept what is being preached and practice in Saudi Arabia than any other sect or Islam.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#17

Unread post by porus » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:16 pm

jc,

You could openly be a Wahabi in Saudi Arabia, but do not, not ever, say there that you are a homosexual. What do you think Wahabis would do to you if they found out you were?

You will find Bohras more receptive and enlightened about your sexual orientation. Not that all of them will welcome it.

Be honest with yourself and join MF in Wahabiland. When oil runs out, Wahabism will run down too. Non-Muslim foreigners control Wahabism. Their oil pays for millions of non-Saudi Muslims who slave away there under domination of their masters. Saudis themselves would never be able to run their technologically advanced infrastructure without Americans and other Westerners. And they will leave after they have sucked the last drop of oil from Arabia.

Why do you think that Westerners turn a blind eye to the export of Wahabi terrorism to other Muslim parts of the world? So that they can foment internecine bloodshed amongst Muslims. Wahabism is a Western ally and stooge to keep Muslims backward. And you can see examples right here on this board, and now sadly, jc must be added to them.

Wahabis do not follow Quran or Muhammad. They follow Wahab and Taymiya whose heroes are prophet-haters like Muawiya and Abu Sufyan. Did you know that promoinent shia-hating Wahabis in Pakistan name their children after Muawiyah and arrange weddings on Yowm Aashura?

Have you seen the photographs of Prophet’s house in Madina? It is a ruin. Would not a prophet-loving Muslim restore and renovate Prophets’s house?

Do you know how Wahabis desecrated the Kaaba? So much for the “pure Muslims”?

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:34 pm

khanbhai,

See how you can learn from porus about how to play the wahabi card. I am sure none of the people on this board participated in the destruction of the house of the prophet and I am sure none of them even agree with it. But that should not discourage you from learning from the master..master of the wahabi card.

And of course the wahabis on this board encourage you not to read the quran especially the translation of Yusuf Ali as that will keep you backwards. Besides, I never knew the fact that I was a western ally (or I am not a wahabi). Looks like a few western allies on this board just got rechristenend as wahabis.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:51 pm

One other important point to note is that the word "Wahabi" or one of its variations was used no less than 10 times by porus in his post. As I said before, the more you use it the better.

And do not worry if some people come back and tell you that if you call someone a wahabi then you yourself are a wahabi. Ask them how they came up with that idea and you will have them stumped.

Thank God for "Wahabi", otherwise I would've been so out of ideas.

Average Bohra
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#20

Unread post by Average Bohra » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:51 pm

You are </font>out of ideas !

JC,

You are obviously easy to please and a prime candidate for happy residence in Saudi Arabia. I am making the assumption that if your daughter were allowed to perish in a burning school because she was not wearing a Hijab you would find that “logical”, “rational”, “easy to understand”, and “least objectionable”. Well, more power to you. I agree with you that Islam in Saudi Arabia is “easy to understand”; their way or the highway …..or chopping of limbs, stoning etc. Personally, I would opt for the highway if given the option. However, uncertainty of where that road might lead will scare some into accepting torture.

Originally posted by anajmi:
will you be able to explain what exactly is wahabism?
Originally posted by anajmi:
try to figure out what "Wahabi" actually means.
Originally posted by Muslim First:
Could you define Wahabism?
Originally posted by JC:
whatever Whabism means or for whatever Whabis stand for or whosoever Wahabis are.
See the trend here ? Let me give you a hint. A true Wahabi is one who does not know what Wahabism is and constantly asks others to explain or disavows its very existence. They prefer being referred to as True Muslims…you know, the ones who are logical & rational. All of them believe that “All other sects are full of shirk, huge deviations from Islam, changes, illogical and irrational things.”

I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions regarding Wahabism and Wahabis.

Shahu
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#21

Unread post by Shahu » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:30 pm


feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#22

Unread post by feelgud » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:52 pm

shahu,
many thanks.its very close .Hasan al banna was used by akhwan .

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#23

Unread post by JC » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:12 pm

Thank you Porus, Anajami and Average Bohra.

I guess I was not able to explain myself fully.

What I meant is that there are tons of Muslim sects and every sect to me seems much deviant from whatever Islam is. HOW?? Because every one speaks differently - there are a very few common grounds. Where would one find True Islam or what really Religion is? I totally agree with AB that there are things which are not good in Saudia and I had said that. I also agree with some analysis of Porus, and I guess Anajami is also saying that same thing - Westerners are looting Muslims in general and the blame squarely lies on Muslims only, of all sects.

And yes Porus, I cannot declare to be a gay in KSA while in any other Muslim country MAY BE and for sure anywhere in West. West also has some good thing. If not, today they will not be masters, yes, they may have used some wrong ways and means but overall the good is seen in most of the west and not in east.

I would say that Religion is one of the root cause of division. Today world is divided coz of Religion only - right or wrong.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#24

Unread post by porus » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:19 pm

Originally posted by Shahu:
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/
This seems a very interesting book. I intend to read it.

The review of the book makes me think it is a white-washing of the Wahhabi/Salafi crimes against Muslims.

It is all very well saying that the original Salafis were full of piety. We are more concerned with the modern incarnation of the Wahhabi/Salafi movements across the globe. There now appears to be no distinction now between Wahhabis and Salafis. Just because they call themselves Salafis does not mean that they actually are.

In any case, in the Shia view, some of the so-called Salafis were no such thing. Following the Salaf has turned itself into following modern Wahhabi/Salafi interpretation of Quran, hadith and sunna.

I did not see any mention of Ibn Taymiyya. Sayed Qutb's writings echo Ibn Taymiya's as they relate to how "pure Muslims" (modern-day Wahabis/Salafis) should deal with other Muslims. Not a very good prescription for brotherly love.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:26 pm

shahu, feelgud,

Do you guys actually think that I might be interested in knowing what a wahabi actually is before calling somebody a wahabi? In fact the less I know about wahabi the broader the range of the people that I can fit under the wahabi umbrella.
If someone denies he is a wahabi then it is obvious that he is a wahabi.
If someone questions who or what a wahabi is then he is obviously a wahabi.
If someone tries to dismiss wahabism as a myth then he is definitely a wahabi.

Bottom line - a person doesn't have to be a wahabi for me to call him wahabi, he becomes a wahabi as soon as I call him a wahabi.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:32 pm

And I forgot to mention, if a person reads any interpretation of the quran or the hadith other than mine (which is 100% mutashabihaat hence every other interpretation becomes a wahabi interpretation) then he has to be a wahabi.

And if someone asks for differences for eg. if I were to ask example comparisons of the interpretation of an ayah according to the wahabi and the real interpretation of the ayah then I am obviously a wahabi. And, please, never give out the examples, lest you be exposed.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#27

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:38 pm

.
AS

To me if you are intelligent enough to read and understand translation of Qur'an and come to conclusion that You are required to worship only one God which Muslims call Allah , follow the commands of Qur'an and worship Allah the way His last Prophet has shown and you remind others who deviate from the teachings of Qur’an and Sunnah that you are deviant then instantly those people will call you a "Wahabi".

Wasalaam
.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#28

Unread post by porus » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:50 pm

We should be tolerant and generaous enough to allow all interpretations to co-exist. It is when interpretation other than yours provokes hatred in you of other people enough to verbally and physically attack them and strip them of their rights that causes problems.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#29

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:10 am

I agree with you. I have seen a lot of hatred for me from people like you and a few others on this board because I do not agree with your interpretation of the quran. I am sure Muslim First has seen a lot of it too.

As far as interpretations co-existing is concerned, I am afraid that may not be possible. According to your interpretation there is no God.

muslimalways
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:01 am

Re: Ismaili Immamat

#30

Unread post by muslimalways » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:37 am

Ahle Sunnah views of Wahhabi sect. Interesting.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... g-sl&hl=en