Moharram

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Moharram

#1

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:56 am

I am forwardind an article by Prof. Ismail Poonawala for readers of this website

Dear Friends:
Let me intervene in your discussion, but briefly. I think, it is high time that the Shiites (including Bohras) move further than merely the ritual aspect of "matam" (mourning). Personally, I don't approve of self-flagellation, breast beating, etc. Most of the learned ulama' also disapprove of this ritual. The question is: What is the most appropriate and worthy way to commemorate that human tragedy? Why did Imam Husayn sacrifce himself, his famly members, close friends and supporters?
Try to think about what was the root cause of this struggle? Husayn was a man of character, a man of principle, who would not give up his higher principles what he considered them to be "the truth." He did not submit himself to a debauche, a tyrant, an unjust ruler. He gave his opponents three honorable alternatives, but neither of them was accepted and so he finally decided to fight until death. His small band was fighting an enemy of several thousands. There was no ray of hope that they could have defeated them. All the odds were against them, but they did not submit and humiliated themselves.
How many Bahras would stand up for the right against the present religious establishment? Most of them don't have the moral courage to face the unpleasant tune. Their religion/faith is a faith of convenience. Hence, the question, are they the true followers of Imam Husayn? I cannot reply on their behalf, but try to take stock of your conscience, (some even don't have the conscience- it is mortgaged or already sold) inner self, before you point your fingers to others.
Yes, my words are harsh, but that is the truth.

Please note that I am not going to react or respond, so do not write me back, rather buy books about Islamic history and Islamic Thought, read and reflect on what you read. Should you need any help in this respect, yes I will respond.
Ismail Poonawala

belief
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#2

Unread post by belief » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:52 am

gaansaaf & Professor Pyarelala,

Please take a running jump !

Shahu
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#3

Unread post by Shahu » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:12 pm

Yes one has to read Islamic history. But most of them has borrowed from Tabari. Please read following books available on-line.

Islam: The True History and False Beliefs

http://www.ourbeacon.com/TRUE%20HISTORY.pdf

Karbala: Fact or Fiction

http://www.beacon2005.com/KARBALA.pdf

The Qur'an As It Explains Itself

http://www.beacon2005.com/QXP.pdf

When Is Messiah Coming?

http://www.ourbeacon.com/Messiah.pdf

and other books

http://www.ourbeacon.com/7101.html

Thank you,

Shahu

Kaka Akela
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#4

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:10 pm

Br. Insaaf and Br. Poonawala:

Quote from your write up:
-----------------------------------------------
How many Bahras would stand up for the right against the present religious establishment? Most of them don't have the moral courage to face the unpleasant tune. Their religion/faith is a faith of convenience. Hence, the question, are they the true followers of Imam Husayn?
-------------------------------------------------
Yes, we are true believers of Imam Husayn, but Imam Husayn stood up against the tyrant with his whole family. in our religion they isolate you totally from family when you take a stand against them, and no one, yes no one including yourself can imagine to live out your life without your family. And if the whole family takes a stand them they isolate you from all your other relatives and the community. upon the slightest indication of any dissent from any member you are castigated, isolated and branded and laanat is read upon you and your loved ones. I like the teachings of the religion so I do not want to give up the religion itself but I want to do away with the greedy & corrupt heiarchy. This religion has turned itself into a Dai-worshipping cult in which there is no avenue to complain and also they think it is so perfect that there is no room to complain.
Please explain to us O'wise sages how we go about bringing a change when we are totally cut-off while bringing the change, that is the dilemma faced by 99.9% of bohra faithfuls.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#5

Unread post by accountability » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:25 pm

Kaka ji you are so very right. Our greatest delimma is, that we cannot bring change from within, and this hermit kingdom has no boundries, so that you can escape from its clutches.

The myth about dai is inteligently woven around half baked and fabricated stories.

Every life has misery, they exploit miseries and sufferings to instil fear among ordinary beings. Ones who dare to stand up against them are made horrible examples.

They have bred an army of fanatics from jamia, who after getting out of jamia has no future in competitive world. They have to build their lives around the belief and religion, and also make it their livelihood. These jamia grads are their strength. They are able to control and expoit the masses by unleashing this army.

They have become tools and partners for mass exploitation.

Bohras can only get out this rult religion, by standing tall and against the exploitaion. They will have do away and get rid of the instilled fear of unknown. They will have to believe that miseries or good fortunes are the fruits of their own karmas, and they have to believe that Allah is the greatest, and worshipping anyone other than him is of no use.

There aren't any so called miracles. If there are miracles, then why did maula's daughter die of cancer in agha khan hospital.

There are people other than "believers" who are affluent and fortunate. There are those believers, who are in miserable conditions. Both are just test of times, nothing more nothing less.

Kaka, I would suggest that we should all stand up and refuse to succumb to any expoitation, we should use our right of beig independent, we should ask the questions, without fear. Once we start asking questions about the expoitation and exploiters, and they are not able to answer it.
That would the day of reckoning. Ask your amil, whenever he indulges into extra curicular activity, where did he get the money. Ask about the phone bills, ask if he is paying enough taxes. Remind him that he is a servant, not a master, his salary is paid by us.

The biggest tools and armour in the hands of tyrants and exploiters is fear of unknown. Once people are able to overcome that fear, they become free, and then they realize that , what they thought was sky apart, is just around the corner. Let us all snatch the tool of tyrant, Let us be not afraid of unknown. Let miseries be just a test of time, if any, let us enjoy our luck, by not believing that it is the result someone else's grant.

Let us be free.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:33 pm

90% of the bohras probably know about the corruption of the office of the Dai. However, people will take it as long as they can bear it. if you make sure you do not go over the limit, people won't complain. With most bohras that has not happened yet.

One the troubles go beyond what they can bear then they wouldn't care if they go a little bit further so as to actually fix the problem.

Just pray that the kothar gets so bad, that people start revolting.

Average Bohra
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#7

Unread post by Average Bohra » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:42 am

Accountability,

What you are accurately describing is not unique to the Bohras, but Islam in general.

If you want to remain a Muslim, which sect of Islam can you turn to that does not use mass exploitation, or exploit miseries and sufferings to instill fear among ordinary beings? It is the very basis of Islam.

There are other options if you dare to venture beyond organized religion. Your conscience is the better vehicle, every time.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:01 am

Take for eg what is happening in Iraq. Under Saddam the people were being terrorized but within limits. With the Americans, it has become so unbearable that the people have risen up in revolt against the occupier.

Hundreds of thousands are dead, but that is the price that has to be paid for freedom.

There is a lesson to be learnt by the bohras, and the kothar as well, in the American misadventure in Iraq.

Average Bohra
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#9

Unread post by Average Bohra » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:27 am

Anajmi,

Are you now for women's rights period, or just in post-Taliban Afghanistan and post-Saddam Iraq ? You are on record stating you don't believe in your wife working yet you are concerned about Unemployment among women has skyrocketed. Of the 260,000 reconstruction contracts in Iraq, less than 1,000 have gone to female contractors. Before the occupation 70% of the public workforce, by far the largest employer in Iraq, were women.

Is this now a cause for concern for you ? If so, can you please compare this to the employment statistic for women in Saudi Arabia ?

Furthermore, the same article you post cites – Though 25% of the seats in the National Assembly are reserved for women, the real power in Iraq is increasingly in the hands of Islamists determined to move Iraq from a secular society towards a theocracy. They are forcing women to wear veils and are trying to curtail women’s rights in areas such as marriage, divorce, and inheritance.

Are you now supporting these rights for women, or just in Iraq and Afghanistan ? Are you now in support of a secular government and against a theocracy ? The secular Saddam was not supported by Wahabis until now, and the Taliban were the ultimate enforcers of the Wahabi ideals.. Are you even aware of the conflict in your thought process ?

Of course not.... mass exploitation .

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:43 am

I am also on record stating that my mother had to work to support us and I am indebted to her for ever.

That throws your entire argument down the drain.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:50 am

Besides, my wife actually does more work than I do.

Aftab
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#12

Unread post by Aftab » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:25 am

I have indicated before as to what the worry is by denouncing the Kothar. I am a reformist and am very satisfied with my position, barat or no barat, masjid or no masjid. What is your fear and concern? Join us as we will challenge these monsters.

Aftab
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#13

Unread post by Aftab » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:26 am

This is for Kaka Akela

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:04 am

Aftab,

Why did you become a reformist?

Kaka Akela
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#15

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:04 am

Br. Aftab:
I don't know your circumstances about your family and the inner wiring diagram as to how extensive it is or not. My extended family is very large in India, Pakistan, London, and in USA. If I was alone or with a small family it would be very easy to chuck everything and leave the kothari mafia, but in my case it would be very difficult. I can't just think of myself alone in a vacuum, I have married daughters and sons and grandkids, I can not give all that up.

Br. Accountability:

You are so right about the idiot Jamea graduates, who get no useful education to make a decent living outside so they are at the mercy of kothar to sing and dance to their music. For 11 years they get a good brain washing to think of Dai as very close to God if not God. He is already more than or equal to Nabi Mohammed Rasulullah, more in the sense we celebrate Rasulullah's milad for a day or at most for a week but Dai's milad we have to celebrate for 40 days with continuous doa for his long life. Don't they realize that in every namaaz we say Maota Haqqun, we all will die one day, even all the nabi(s) died what is so special about this or any other Dai. This is why I said we have turned into a Dai worshiping cult. Perhaps you could say something bad about Nabi, Imam and get away with it but BOY if you say one bad word against Syedna you are doomed to far corners of hell. At my age, it is not easy to walk away from
the religion that I have followed, cherished but now lately it has become very distasteful, punitive and strongarmed. Only young whipper-snappers CAN bring a meaningful change as they have less to lose to take a stand and I pray that a large number of them will wake up from their slumber and have a face-off with the arrogant and spoiled, corrupt heirarchy of our religion or sect.

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#16

Unread post by Zeal » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:35 am

The myth about dai is inteligently woven around half baked and fabricated stories.

Every life has misery, they exploit miseries and sufferings to instil fear among ordinary beings. Ones who dare to stand up against them are made horrible examples.
________________________________________________

Accountability,

This couldnt have been said better.

I agree so much to you and Kaka.

These kotharis and their blind love for sayedna have become a regular pain in the neck .You cant digest any of their majlis or wiaz now-a-days.Any sensible , knowlegeable person wont be able to take it.

The ignorance has reached to so much height , that now aamil just says the word maula and foolish fanatics in the front row start crying !

What the hell ...why are they crying?

Every act whether it be maatam , whether it be namaaz , charity they want it to dedicate it to sayedna.

Its an intelligently woven web in which we all are trapped.
I believe the only way to break through this web is exposing the tyrant rule in a big way through the media.
Justice might come late but its never lacking in Allah's kingdom.
After 52nd card , the next is always a joker !

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#17

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:29 am

.
Br. AB wrote;
If you want to remain a Muslim, which sect of Islam can you turn to that does not use mass exploitation, or exploit miseries and sufferings to instill fear among ordinary beings? It is the very basis of Islam.
Br. AB
I am in USA and in Boston Area. I have chosen to remain Muslim and do not belong to any Masjid of Jamat (Congregation). I see and experience no exploitation. I pray bacause I choose to do so. I go to one out of 3 Islamic Center bacause I like what I will learn and experience there. I am not forced to contribute anything. It is up to me what I want to put in Charity Box. People get exploited bacause they want to.

Wasalaam
.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#18

Unread post by accountability » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:38 pm

Your conscience is the better vehicle, every time.
AB: I actually pracitce this religion.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#19

Unread post by accountability » Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:29 pm

Aftab: You are not challenging the monster, you are running away from it. YOu advise us to leave the monster's track, We are not the ones who are following him, its him who is following us.

The monster is real, but not invincable. It can be tamed. It can also be challanged.

Why do we need to run away from the monster, when we know, he is a hollowgram, his tooth are not so keen.

I would say to all those who have left, don't leave, be brave and stand tall.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#20

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:32 pm

Yes, one's conscience is a better guide, but let us not forget that it is not an absolute, universal entity. Conscience is a product of culture and upbringing. Your conscience is nothing more than the values and ideas it has been shaped by and thus responds accordingly. In a martial culture waging a war is a good thing, but in a pacifist culture people's conscience will revolt at a mere thought of killing another human being, an animal or even an insect. So, yes conscience is a better guide but only within the context of the culture it is a product of.

And Kaka Akela,
One can understand your problems, but you really have two clear cut options: One, do nothing and keep giving excuses about family and commitments etc. etc. Or two, do as Aftab suggests, take a stand, stand up to the system that you so vehemently detest. And although you call yourself kaka "akela" you are not alone, you can find a lot of humsafars among reformists. Just do it. That's the only right thing to do.

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#21

Unread post by jamanpasand » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:01 pm

Each one of us is trapped in our own unique trap.

Be aftab,kaka akela, accountability or humsafar.

What is working well for Aftab and Humsafar can not work well for Kaka Akela and Accountability.

So just agree of a common agenda which is reform.

More than one action plan may be more effective to enforce reform.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#22

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:39 pm

JP,

Could not agree more. We have to work on all fronts, but the key thing as you mention is "action plan". That's why I said "take a stand". Whether you are a closet reformist or open reformist you have to do something about the situation that we all agree must be changed. Simply complaining that my hands are tied is not going to get us anywhere. It is like complaining about the weather, you can whinge as much as you like but there's nothing one can do about it.

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#23

Unread post by jamanpasand » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:39 pm

[QUOTE]

After 52nd card , the next is always a joker !

Show please !!!!

Rahi
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#24

Unread post by Rahi » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:58 pm

Only young whipper-snappers CAN bring a meaningful change as they have less to lose to take a stand and I pray that a large number of them will wake up from their slumber and have a face-off with the arrogant and spoiled, corrupt heirarchy of our religion or sect.
Why don't you start with your children/grand children. As Humsafar and JP mentioned, without any action you'll go nowhere. Encourage them to break away from this tyranny for their own sake.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#25

Unread post by accountability » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:00 pm

JP hamsafar, I totally agree with you. The need of the hour is action. Hamsafar rightly pointed out, that we have to stand up against all the atrocities. Whining will get us no where. we shall have to defy and challenge the "extended family". They have everything to lose, not us, becasue to lose, you have to have that thing, which we don't and they have it. Their debauchery, their pride, their tyranny, all are limited, and because of us.

All we want is our simple religion back, without extortions. Where instead of filling their coffers, we are able to help each other.

seeker110
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#26

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:43 am

Once I was in masjid and I observed a chumcha deal with a brother with badtamizy. This was the time of paying silafitra.This happened about few years ago.I have not been able to forgive myself for not taking the guy out and break his mouth and else. I read about all the zulam and not to do anything about it makes me feel like a woman. Has any body thought of Mehdi Army? Are we the followers of Ali who always stood up to help the oppressed. Things will stay the same if we let it. We need to take the bully out. soon is not soon enough.

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#27

Unread post by Zeal » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:36 am

Lets think of a strategy and something more than just writing posts on this reform board.

Guys ...any revolutionary ideas ??!!
Anything which will make the kothar shake from their roots ?

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#28

Unread post by SBM » Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:22 pm

I have one. Specially people in USA.
Let us find out the articles from Indian newspaper where Kothar contributed money to Narendra Modi and Saddam Hussain.
It is against USA laws to contribute money to a person who is associated with Torture and Human Rights violations. Narendra Modi was a person Non Grata and his visa to visit America has been revoked. Dawat E Hadiya is a non profit organization and Dai Ul Mutluq is sole trustee and if we can link these two and send these information to Senators,Congress, Homeland Security and IRS and ask them to investigate. We can also send copies of Politcial Contribution to Republicans by SK TZ of Dawat E Hadiayh and Aamil of LA(send to Democrat Senators and Congress)

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Moharram

#29

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:04 pm

You don't need "revolutionary ideas" to challenge these petty amils and their sidekicks. You can start by asking questions. For example, in the Tornto masjid case, one can ask why do you need so much money from one individual, if they say this is aka moula's firman, ask for the written firman etc. (I know this is not easy, but you need to have some spine if you want change.) One could also start talking about the issue with friends and other people you meet in the jamaat, take people into confidence, organise a meeting of like-minded people, discuss the issue, chart out an action plan; for example, draw up a petition and organise a signature campaign, and/or go meet the amil in a big group and say you're not going to pay up.

The thing to keep in mind is that one person can achieve little, it is easy to isolate and humiliate him. Organise a collective action, and if a brave individual goes it alone, support him, show solidarity. It's not for nothing that all authoritarian setups fear the masses and mass action.

Imagine if every jamaat had a group of committed people who started asking uncomfortable questions, and talked about issues that touch upon the lives of every ordinary member, they would start to get increasing sympathy and support.

Of course, it all requires a little courage. Most of us are afraid of the consequences. But what possibly could be the consequences? Barat, ex-communication? Is that such a big deal? Is this so devastating that we rather prefer to take shit and do nothing? Our lives must be pretty empty and meaningless if such petty threats could cow us into silence and a life of indignity.

Do something for god's sake, no, for your own sake. Do it not for some higher principle like justice or democracy or whatever, do it for your own self-respect. You have a right to self-respect, a right to NOT to be cheated and exploited. Stand up for yourself.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Moharram

#30

Unread post by tahir » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:15 pm

Originally posted by Zeal:
Lets think of a strategy and something more than just writing posts on this reform board.

Guys ...any revolutionary ideas ??!!
Anything which will make the kothar shake from their roots ?
STOP MARRYING WITHIN THE COMMUNITY. Let this tiny endogamous tribe being injected with diverse external genes. Besides socio biological upliftment, this 'little' step will eradicate the base of kothar (or any controlling institution).

Closed communities are always prone to exploitation. Even if there is a coup and kothar is overthrown, there will emerge an equally exploitative system within some time.

Let this stagnant and stinking puddle merge into the flowing and vibrant stream of humanity. Everything else in the name of reforms would be merely cosmetic.