3 "Laanatti"

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Hyderabadi
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#61

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:31 am

"One thing you have to remember is that Hazrat Ali had no right to anything, as Shias keep claiming!! Islam was not a family property, it isn't even the property of the Muslim Ummah. It is a gift from Allah."

--- Thousands of well known Sunni Scholars (Apart from Shia) have recorded the episode of Ghadeer and many other Ahadees of Prophet declaring Hazrat Ali (AS) as his successor.
All the three Khalifa themselves have accepted the supremacy of Ali(AS) but due to the lust for power did not yield the right to the successor.

Many opposers of Islam in the initial days had no other option left but to accept Islam and they accepted purely for material gains.
Any history book, irrespective of the author will tell you who these people were.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#62

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:42 am

salaams

Anajmi & MF

A lot has been discussed about the successor issue on this board and elsewhere.

Many of the Sunni Scholars who conducted research have accepted the truth.

One such person (A Maliki Scholar from Tunisia) have done extensive study on the subject and his work can be had from the link :

http://www.al-islam.org/guided/

was salaam

kabeer19922001
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#63

Unread post by kabeer19922001 » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:09 am

Dear Hyderabadi

I visted the site you mentioned. Its not very different from the other shia sites. Any way, for arguments sake lets assume all what is written is correct. So I have now go to find the true followers of Ahle Bait. I start my search and find three distinct groups, each claiming superiorty over the other

a) Ithna Shris (12ers) Believe in 12 Imams and last in seclusion
b) Dawoodi bohra Believe in 21 Imams and last one in seclusion

c) Agha Khani I don't know how may Imams they beleive in. However, current Imam is very much alive.

These are three very broad categories and within the first two, there are more sub-sects, all making the same claim of being the true followers of Ahle Bait.

So what does a mortal like me do. I was born and bred as a Bohra and realized after 40 years that I was not getting any where spritually.

I have asked this question many times on this board and have got vague replies about "following my insticts" etc etc.

In any case, how do I follow the Ahle Bait. Will doing matam and taking out 'tazia", koonday, clebrating the death and birth anniversaires of all Imams, praying all sort of strange prayers, and saying Ya Ali mean that I follow Ahle Bait.

Regards

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#64

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:23 am

Br.Khan salaam

"In any case, how do I follow the Ahle Bait. Will doing matam and taking out 'tazia", koonday, clebrating the death and birth anniversaires of all Imams, praying all sort of strange prayers, and saying Ya Ali mean that I follow Ahle Bait".

---- These are all the social gathering functions and nothing more..Similar form of gatherings can be found among sunnis like Urs of pirs, jhandas, dhols, koondays etc.,

The social and the religious obligations (Five Pillars) are not much different for majority of muslims.

Islam is not just these things..It is a complete way of life involving human issues at macro and micro levels and it encompasses all aspects of rule, law, justice, jusrispudence etc.,

Comparing all these aspects as followed by different denomiations will give you a fair idea or the right and the wrong.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#65

Unread post by tahir » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:08 pm

Originally posted by kabeer19922001:

I visted the site you mentioned. Its not very different from the other shia sites. Any way, for arguments sake lets assume all what is written is correct. So I have now go to find the true followers of Ahle Bait. I start my search and find three distinct groups, each claiming superiorty over the other
Kabeer has a point. I always wonder if there are as many subsects among sunnis as there are in shias (each claiming to be correct and following the true Islam).Within shias there are so many watertight compartments that a dawoodi bohra does not usually pray in an Aga Khani mosque and vice versa. Forget that, a nagpuri dawoodi bohra cannot pray in the mosque of a burhani dawoodi bohra (the orthos) since the former disputed the succession of 47th dai. A burhani dawoodi is prohibited from mingling with a progressive bohra by the wall of "laanat". This is simply weird and is starkly against the bedrock of Islam- UNITY.

The social heirarchical patterns in the shia subsects just make fun of this famous sher of Iqbal (I guess!!) -

Eik hi saf mein khare ho gaye Mehmood aur Ayaz
Na koi banda raha na koi banda nawaz


Among sunnis, I am yet to see such sectorial and sub sectorial segregations and petty feminine quibbles. If anyone can point out I would appreciate.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#66

Unread post by tahir » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:20 pm

Originally posted by Muslim:
Kabeer,

Are you worried only about how rituals (prayers, fasting, haj, zakat and matam) would be different?

What about faith, justice and righteousness?

we all aware of these three virtues of kothar (shias).

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#67

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:34 pm

Hyderabadi,
--- Thousands of well known Sunni Scholars (Apart from Shia) have recorded the episode of Ghadeer and many other Ahadees of Prophet declaring Hazrat Ali (AS) as his successor.
Can you print the exact quote of Ghadeer where the prophet(saw) declared Hazrat Ali to be his successor, where the prophet said, as Shias claim, that after me Hazrat Ali will be the khalifa?
All the three Khalifa themselves have accepted the supremacy of Ali(AS) but due to the lust for power did not yield the right to the successor.
Supremacy in what? Have they said that Ali should've been khalifa, but idiots voted us into power? Can you point to some hadith which says this?
Many opposers of Islam in the initial days had no other option left but to accept Islam and they accepted purely for material gains.
Any history book, irrespective of the author will tell you who these people were.
You may want to go back and start reading those history books again. Hazrat Umar, Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Uthman were rich people. They joined the prophet when there was no material gain in Islam and in fact they actually gave up everything they had.

The prophet (saw) used to pray every night for either Hazrat Umar or Abu Jahl to accept Islam. So according to the Shias Allah fooled the prophet, nauzubillah.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#68

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:35 pm

"Can you print the exact quote of Ghadeer where the prophet(saw) declared Hazrat Ali to be his successor, where the prophet said, as Shias claim, that after me Hazrat Ali will be the khalifa?"

--- Oh, not again..All this is discussed so many times on this forum and also elsewhere.
The event of Gadheer is very much recorded and expalined in details even in the authentic sunni books.

A good discussion currently active on the related topics can be had from :

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41761

anajmi
Posts: 13417
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#69

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:10 pm

Then why are you discussing it with me all over again?

I am not interested in going through some other website and wasting my time as I have wasted enough already over here.

If the event is recorded in the Sunni books, then it obviously means that the Shias have not understood it!!

If you have, give me the quote of the prophet which claims Hazrat Ali to be the khalifa after the prophet or end this discussion.

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#70

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:11 pm

By the way, and may Allah forgive me for saying this, but from your interpretations, Hazrat Ali seems to be just as materialistic as anyone else. He wants a piece of the pie just as badly.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#71

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:18 pm

"Then why are you discussing it with me all over again?

I am not interested in going through some other website and wasting my time as I have wasted enough already over here"

--- This is not the attitude of a truth seeker.

I suggested you the link 'cause it is dealt in good detail and i did not want to reproduce all here and waste the disk space.

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#72

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:20 pm

Actually, all I wanted was the quote from the prophet (saw) declaring Hazrat Ali as his successor.

And all I wanted to show is that you don't have any!!

As I have done that, I consider this discussion to be over. You can have the last word.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#73

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:30 pm

"As I have done that, I consider this discussion to be over. You can have the last word"

--- You sound very childish here..How old are you ?

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#74

Unread post by Alislam » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:51 pm

Hyderabadi,

You seem to be a new member on this board and i would like to tell you that there is no point in discussing with nuts like anajmi.

There is no logic in many of his posts and many regular members just ignore him for his multiple posts in succession.

So, i suggest you not to waste time with him anymore.

kabeer19922001
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#75

Unread post by kabeer19922001 » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:04 am

Dear Hyderabadi

If you don't mind, will you reveal if you are a Shia and if you are which line of Imams do you follow.

Going back to your response, it is clear that you have not understood the Bohra branch of Shias. You have dismissed "matam" as a social event having no religious meaning. "Matam" rightly or wrongly is considered by the Bohri's to be an integral part of thier religion. To some it has importance even greator than the daily prayers. ( M52 and Trance will provide you more details)

Regards

anajmi
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#76

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:52 pm

Alislam,

When discussing with nuts like me, the best thing to do is present facts instead of beating around the bush which Hyderabadi has been doing. Considering the fact that a child (namely me) has you guys dancing around, imagine what an adult could do!!

anajmi
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#77

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:05 pm

Here's what I am going to do, I am going to let you find the Prophet's quote that declares Hazrat Ali to be his successor. Let me know when you do that and then we can discuss further.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#78

Unread post by Alislam » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:18 pm

"Considering the fact that a child (namely me) has you guys dancing around, imagine what an adult could do!!

---- I suppose you understand english.. Does chidish and child mean the same ??

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#79

Unread post by S. Insaf » Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:39 pm

I have been passionately going through all the posts on this topic and as I understand the topic of discussion was:
1) Why Shias curse first three Khalifas and
2) Why and where Muslims got divided into Sunnis and Shias categories.
My understanding of first point is that those Muslims who believe that first three khlifas were usurpers of Khilafat from Hazrat Ali and those who are loyal to house of Ali are known as Shias. This has been also very well argued on this board. But in my first post I had tried to answer the second point “why and where Muslims got divided into Sunnis and Shias categoriesâ€

porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#80

Unread post by porus » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:22 pm

Insaf,

In my eyes you have redeemed yourself with an excellent post. In response to point 7, I do not believe that Sunnis consider Prophet 'masoom' in all matters. They consider him masoom only in religious matters. The Shia, more logically, consider him masoom in all respects, especially as they interpret the ayat of "tatheer" to include Panjatan only.

Umar's disobedience of Prophet when he requested the writing of the will clearly disqualifies him from Caliphate. Shia have Quranic justification for Imamat as Allah in Quran has stated that Ibrahim's progeny will be the Imams. While Sunnis consider Caliphate as non-masoom, for the Shia, Imamat is all important, whether or not the Imams occupy Caliphate, which for Sunnis is a purely political office.

Episode of Ghadeer al-Khum is, I believe, accepted by Sunni authorities. Prophet said, "Those who consider me your Leader, then consider Ali to be your Leader too." Sunnis interpret that as leader in religious issues only. Shias cannot accept this because Ali himself has denied that Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were the rightfil holders of the Caliphate. Also, Ali has never said that they were Imams.

Today, as you rightly point out, Shia sects have made a mockery of the concept of Imamat. It is wise to consign Imamat to history just like Caliphate. And be tolerant of the faith of people who have their local Imam, like the Aga Khan or a hidden 12th or 21st Imam.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#81

Unread post by porus » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:42 pm

Delete " as you rightly point out" in the last paragraph of my previous post

Hyderabadi
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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#82

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:18 pm

For the majority of muslims the basic tenets (Five pillars) are the same.
The difference comes in following the laws of shariat.

The major laws that are followed today are those of Hanafi, Maliki, Shafai, Hambali and Jafferi.

The founders of Hanafi and Maliki were both students of Imam Jaffer (A.S.).

Majority of muslims revere Imam Jaffer (A.S.)as highly learned and also respect him for he being from the Ahlebait, BUT do not follow the laws that he had compiled as given by the Quran and taught by Prophet (A.S.).

If muslims of today think logically and follow the right laws as given by Quran and explained by the the Ahlebait (A.S.), then all the sects and subsects will be vanished and the whole ummah is united as one.

Muslim First
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#83

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:01 pm

Regarding Imam Abu Hanifah's allegedly having studied under Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, please be informed as follows:

Imam Abu Hanifah was the pupil and intellectual successor of his mentor, Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman, who was the successor to Ibrahim an
Nakha'i, who was the successor to hisuncle 'Alqamah ibn Qays an-Nakha'i, who was the successor to Sayyiduna 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, who was sent as a teacher to the city Kufah by Amir al-Mu'minin Sayyiduna 'Umar ibn al-Khattab. This chain of intellectual descent is known to anyone knowledgeable of the legislative history of Islam.

In fact, Imam Abu Hanifah held his dicourses at the very same place in the masjid of Kufah where Ibn Mas'ud used to teach.This teaching circle was passed down generation after generation, by the men whose names you have just read: From Ibn Mas'ud to 'Alqamah; from 'Alqamah to Ibrahim; from Ibrahim to Hammad; and ultimately from Hammad to Abu Hanifah, after whom it was occupied by three of his students successively: firstly Zufar ibn Hudhayl; then Abu Yusuf; and then Muhammad ibn al-Hasan.

Now, regarding the link between Abu Hanifah and Ja'far as-Sadiq, you need to keep in mind the following:

FIRSTLY
Imam Abu Hanifah was born in the year 80 AH
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq was born in the year 83 AH

In other words, not only were they contemporaries; but Abu Hanifah was 3 years older than Ja'far as-Sadiq.

SECONDLY
Imam Abu Hanifah's education took place in Kufah, in the school originally established by Ibn Mas'ud. Like other 'ulama of his time, he used to go to Hijaz for Hajj, and passing through Madinah, he used to benefit from the
knowledge of eminent men of learning, such as the father of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, namely Imam Muhammad al-Baqir. Many of the ahadith he narrates from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir are documented in the books of his pupils Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan.

THIRDLY
It is true that Imam Abu Hanifah does narrate some ahadith from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq. But that was according to the habit of the 'ulama to narrate from even their contemporaries. If that alone is to be taken as evidence that Imam Abu Hanifah "studied" under Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, then we will be bound to conclude that Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq similarly learnt from people other than his father, such as Ibn Shihab az-Zuhri, 'Ata ibn Abi Rabah, 'Urwah ibn Zubaur and Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir. Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq has narrated hadith from all of these men, and even others besides them. (Tahdhib
al-Kamal vol. 5 p. 75)

FOURTHLY
In the year 132 the Abbasids came to power, having ousted the Umayyads. Abu Hanifah was then 52 years of age. The Abbasid khalifah Abu Ja'far al-Mansur wanted Abu Hanifah as his chief justice, which post he refused. In order to escape the vengeance of the khalifah, Abu
Hanifah betook himself to the Hijaz where he spent the next 2 years. It is in terms of this sojourn in the Hijaz that he is reported to have said, "Were it not for the 2 years,Nu'man
(i.e. Abu Hanifah) would have been destroyed". Creative Shi'i imaginations would have us believe that what he actually meant thereby was that it was during this period that he gained his knowledge at the feet of Imam Ja'far
as-Sadiq. The absurdity of this can be seen from the fact that by that time he was already so famous as a man of learning, that he was sought by the khalifah as the chief justice. Apart from that, he was, as already shown, over 50 years of age.

FIFTHLY
There is a famous story in circulation about Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq posing certain questions to Imam Abu Hanifah regarding the use of Qiyas (analogy). You should be informed that the story appears in this form in Shi'i books such as al-Kafi. In the Sunni literature it appears with significant changes.

First of all, the discussion is not between Abu Hanifah and Ja'far as-Sadiq, but between Abu Hanifah and Muhammad al-Baqir.

Secondly, the story goes as follows:

Al-Baqir asks Abu Hanifah if he is the one who is changing the Deen of his (al-Baqir's) grandfather (Rasulullah sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) through the use of Qiyas. Abu Hanifah denies that he is changing the Deen. In order
to demonstrate the falsehood of the rumours, he then goes on his knees in front of Imam al-Baqir and uses the comparison between (1) the share of a man and a woman in the spoils of war; (2) fasting and prayer with regard to a woman in menstruation having to pay in the former and not the latter; (3) urine and semen in respect of the method of purification for either one.

After this lucid demonstration of his usage of Qiyas only where there is no textual evidence, and strictly adhering to the authority of text where it exists, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir stands up and kisses Imam Abu Hanifah on his forehead. (Manaqib Abi Hanifah by al-Kardari, p. 99)

It was only later that the Shi'ah would adapt the story to suit their own particular needs.

Shaykh Taha Karaan
Darul Uloom al-Arabiyya al-Islaamiyyah, Western Cape

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#84

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:10 pm

.
Br.Hyderabadi said;
If muslims of today think logically and follow the right laws as given by Quran and explained by the the Ahlebait (A.S.)
I have a problem undestanding Qur'an. Brother can you point me to a certified member of Ahlebait?

I will appricaiate if you can give me his name , addres and Tel. No.

Or point me to Standard Work of Qur'an Tafsir by Ahlebait.

Thanks in advance

Wasalaam
.

Muslim
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#85

Unread post by Muslim » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:20 pm

S Insaf, I am still slightly mystified about the inaccuracies in your initial post, but I agree with Porus, your last post makes much more sense although I still have reservations...

But here again I see that the same Arab Muslims chooses Hazrat Ali as their Khalifa after Hazrat Usman. This means yet there was no division among Muslims as Shias and Sunnis though many Muslims did exist who were of the opinion that Hazrat Ali was the rightful Khalifa after the Prophet Mohammed.

I think you will find that there was significant opposition to Ali's caliphate from Muawiya and Aisha.
Secondly a number of people who had initially accepted Ali's caliphate later rejected it, including the companions of the Prophet - Talha and Zubair. When the Ummayads were finally secure in power history records that Ali was cursed from the pulpits of mosques until the reign of Umar ibn Abdul Aziz.

Even Sunni Muslims consider Hazrat Ali as last rightful Khalifa, among the four Khulfa-e-Rashedeen. They do not consider Mawiyah and khalifas thereafter as rightful khalifas.

This is incorrect. Sunnis do indeed consider Ali as the last of four rightly-guided caliphs but that does not mean they do not accept Muawiya as a legitimate caliph after Hasan's supposed abdication. In fact, all the caliphs from Abu Bakr through to the last Ottoman caliph were considered legitimate (excepting some Sunni factions). According to Sunni theology a caliph can be a tyrant and still be legitimate.

Had division taken place then? If yes, was it a battle between Shias and Sunnis? But Sunnis also condemn Yazid and curse him and have love and respect for Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Fatima, Imam Husains and other martyrs of Karbala.

You don't get two groups of people fighting each other unless there is SOME division. However, it is not useful to view this in terms of Sunni and Shia because in all likelyhood those two groups have little parallels with Sunni and Shia today. You do not find the Shia potraying the battle between Yazid and Husain as Sunni versus Shia but rather on its own historical merits.

Similarly I am aware that word ‘Shia’ existed in Arabic language but Mawiyah used it in totally different context for the first time

'Shia' is a shortened word for the 'Shia of Ali'. The meaning of the word 'shia' is 'faction' and therefore:
- the Shia sect as we know it are the 'faction of Ali'
- the word shia in the Quran refers to the 'faction of Moses' and the 'faction of Noah'
- the shia of XYZ are the faction of XYZ
etc...

I wonder how you can have 'totally different context' to a word when the essential meaning of the Arabic word shia/faction is still the same other than to qualify it with someone else's name? Secondly I will re-iterate, the 'shia of Ali' was a phrase used by the Prophet himself in a tradition recorded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal in Fadhail as-Sahaba.

I concur with Porus on point 7.

Muslim
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#86

Unread post by Muslim » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:37 pm

To the childish person who was too lazy to use a search engine:

Narrated by Ali:
Then he (the Prophet) spoke to them, saying: "Banu Abd al-Muttalib, I don't know of any young man among Arabs who has brought for his people something better than what I have brought to you. I bring the best of this world and the world after, since God has commanded me to summon you to him. Which of you will aid me in this matter, so that he will be my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you?" They all held back, and even though I was the youngest, I said "I will be your helper, O' prophet of God." He put his hand on the back of my neck and said "This is my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you, so listen to him and obey him." They rose up laughing and saying to Abu Talib, "He has commanded you to obey your son and to obey him!"
(1) History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 88-91
(2) History of Ibn Athir, v2, p62
(3) History of Ibn Asakir, v1, p85
(4) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v5, p97

The above quoted in part for the sake of brevity from:
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/7.html

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the
position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me" - Sahih al Bukhari
(Note: according to the Quran, Aaron was the successor of Moses).

porus
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#87

Unread post by porus » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:57 pm

I take issue with the term "Khulafa ar-Raashidun". Commonly translated as "Rightly Guided", what does it really mean?

That they were guided by their association with the Prophet? As everyone knows, even if you learn from an authority, your behavior is predicated on your understanding of that authority. The core meaning of the word "rushd" is integrity. On this test the first three Khulafa failed.

Ali is reported as saying that he got the knowledge from Prophet in the manner that a Dove feeds its young in a nest. He meant by this that he tasted the divine knowledge directly without any transformation from his pre-concieved notions. Shias believe this to mean that Ali was the only rightly guided among the four, because he shared the same source of knowledge as the prophet. This is underlined by a famous saying of the Prophet: I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate.

The only sense in which the first three are rightly guided is that they were guided by Ali.

anajmi
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#88

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:00 am

If the leaders of Islam right after the prophet were corrupt, imagine what the state of the leaders would be today. When Allah says in the quran that he has perfected the religion of Islam, he forgot to mention that it was only for a couple of decades and that corruption would rule immediately after!!

The people closest to the prophet would hijack the religion and the muslims will be left fighting with each other for all eternity!!

anajmi
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#89

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:00 am

Of course, that is not what I believe!!

anajmi
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Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#90

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:03 am

If I cannot trust the muslims closest to the prophet, how can I trust any other muslim in matters of religion.

I choose to believe the prophet chose his followers well. He was smart. Some choose to believe he was capable of being fooled!!